YAK 52

[Vatican69]

Hi,

Does anyone have any experience of owning and operating a YAK 52?

A friend and I are thinking of setting up a syndicate of about six people.

I've looked around, the few that are for sale (shares and aircraft) seem to put the average value at around 35k.

I'd be interested to know what the realistic running costs are (I have looked on the net and have produced some, I think, some reasonable figures) per hour and per month.

I've never been in or set up a syndicate before, so any advice on that subject would be most welcome.

We like the look of the YAK as we are both professional pilots and looking for something we can have a bit of fun in outside of work, we like the kind of warbird feel/look of it and the fact that it could still be used for lunch aways as well as a bit of aeros.

Any help you can offer appreciated.

Vatican

[Arclite01]

based where ?

That will affect your running costs significantly.......

[Vatican69]

We are both south west based for the majority of the time, cornwall (deepest darkest) to be precise, but a location south of birmingham and west of oxford would probably suffice.

[steveking]

A friend of mine has just bought one. He paid a little more than that but it is a very nice one. I did try to get him to get an RV and I almost convinced him but at the last minuite he decided on the Yak. He loves it and is currently doing some flying with Gennady Elfimov, punch his name into youtube, some very interesting flying. When I went with him to look at it Mark Geofferys at Little Gransden who looks after a lot of YAks showed us his invoice book for the annuals averaging about 2-3k. My friend gets anywere between 40-55ltrs an hour. They run on a CAA permit to fly. Can't say much more than that has he has only had it for a few months.

[Vatican69]

Steve,

Thanks for that sounds about right, I was looking at around 2.8k for the annual, plus 1.5k for unforseen issues, 2k for insurance, 1k for hangarage, 2.5k over eight years for hoses, 3k for a life extension at the 600hr/15yr point, £33 an hour for the engine and £4 per hr for the prop.

I have heard they can use up to 3ltr of oil an hour but no idea of oil costs and i'm working on £1.50 ltr for fuel at 16 gal/hr.

Please feel free to correct my assumptions

[eharding]

My friend gets anywere between 40-55ltrs an hour.

http://www.pistonheads.com/inc/images/rofl.gif

Presumably Gena has, up until now, been showing your friend the fine art of starting the Yak-52, warming the engine, and taxying to the pumps.

The best I've ever managed in a straight-and-level economy cruise transit was 60 litres an hour - maybe ours runs a little rich, but I'll put money on a ground frost in hell before you see 40 litres an hour in a 52.

Once you start to rock and roll, you'll see the wrong side of 120 litres an hour - and worth every penny.

FWIW, we currently run the group with a fixed cost of £7800 a year, and a variable (wet, airborne hour) cost using the following formula:

£130/hr + ((pump price/litre - £1) * 80)

Which has worked fairly well - however, Yaks are made for sharing - sharing the fun, and sharing the costs - a couple of years ago, our annual/airframe life extension inspection was estimated at £4K, and finished at £17K.

Be prepared for the occasional monumental trouser-accident of a bill if you want to operate anything on a CAA Permit.

[steveking]

If you are serious about one it would be well worth a call to Mark at little Gransden to chat about them. My knowledge is just in passing. I think the oil burn rate is dependant on if you are doing aeros or not.

Have you flown one yet? Not that I have flown a warbird but the Yak does give you that feel.

MY friend is using his weekly and getting a lot of fun out of it, not the cheapest plane in the world to run, well compared to my little RV anyway but if your happy with the budget a great plane.

[Vatican69]

130/hr + ((pump price/litre - £1) * 80)

Forgive my simple mind...what does the star represent?

How many in your syndicate? Does that give you guys much of a slush fund?

Do the rest of my ball park figure seem reasonable to you?

What sort of cost can we look at for type training, where is it best to go for the afore mentioned?

Cheers

[steveking]

E Harding

Wow 120 Ltrs an hour. Only going on what my friend has said. He has the 400hp engine as well. Must admit he hasn't got into any heavy areos yet.

Sounds like we best get a bigger fuel bouser on the field.:)

[TheGorrilla]

Can vouch for what eHarding says, I'm in his group. Ours is a 360hp motor, so brace yourself.

However, it is worth pointing out that 359 hp is used over coming the extra induced drag of getting eHarding and his personal Ginsters pastie and pork pie supply airborne. Thus leaving 1 hp left to fly lunchevacs.

[eharding]

Forgive my simple mind...what does the star represent?

How many in your syndicate? Does that give you guys much of a slush fund?

Do the rest of my ball park figure seem reasonable to you?

What sort of cost can we look at for type training, where is it best to go for the afore mentioned?

Cheers

"*" means "multiplied by".

i.e.working on an average fuel burn of 80 litres an hour, if the pump price was £1 a litre, the rate would be £130 an hour - the formula was put in place a while ago, when the price was a lot closer to £1 than it is now.

10 in the syndicate, with a 40% BA contingent, split 50/50 Airbus/Boeing. We try to keep the Airbus quotient below 30%, in case they try to vote through a motion to move the stick to the side console and put a picnic table in the middle. Apparently, if the BA membership of the group reaches 60%, Willie Walsh has rights to an additional EGLL-EGLM slot.

Your costings are realistic, but as above, be prepared for the occasional shock bill and inevitable cash-call.

In terms of conversion, no-one knows the Yak-52 better than Gena, and you *do* need to experience the accelerated flat-spin, ideally with him in the back seat. Obviously, the Yak-52 was conceived as a basic trainer, but in an environment where failure was at best dealt with harshly. It has corners of the envelope that will, not entirely figuratively speaking, tear your arms off and beat you to death with the soggy ends. We also have a couple instructors at White Waltham who have a lot of experience on type who can help with the conversion process - feel free to PM me for names.

As for the Gorilla - I'm not taking cr@p about my pie consumption from someone who caused Airbus to have to rework all of the flight dynamics code when it became clear the C of G of an A318 could indeed be moved to the left (and 10 feet behind the nosecone) when he swapped seats.

[TheGorrilla]

Tosh! I fly A319s anyway!

How heavy was your christmas eat-a-thon Mr eHarding? Do we need to remove all unnecessary avionics, replace all the metal on the 52 with carbon fiber and half fill the tanks with helium before your next flight?

[stiknruda]

Flying a YAK is just the aerial equivalent of ploughing with my 1975 David Brown Tractor!

You can complete your mission profile in many other "cheaper to run" aircraft.

If you do buy one - get spin training from Gennady.

For 3 years I took off to display after he landed: he'd run down the centre line, downwind, max chat, erect 100' - pull up to the 45. As speed decayed he'd half-flick to inverted - start the pull through, pop the gear and land on the numbers.

I'd be lining up to go as he exited and still recall shaking my head at the audacity of the act (and the safety gates that were built into it!).



Stik

[Lister Noble]

I fly a 1942 65 hp L4 Cub,£1250 per share, £200/annum and £35/hr wet.That's it.
All in all , I bet I get better smiles per pound than you lot do;)
And get to drive a nice old car,sail the odd mile,and have the occassional party,and get a reasonable pension.
There is a bonus in reaching old age:)
Keep on flying us old un's around for our package hols!:E

[mad_jock]

Do you have the same currency periods for the Boeing and Airbus pilots?

Or do you half the Boeing currency for the Airbus pilots?

[Lister Noble]

We posted the same time,how about a beer on Friday at the Bell?

[TheGorrilla]

Lister Noble,

I also have a share in a J3 Cub, very different aircraft. Don't bother comparing them, they're both great fun.

[eharding]

I fly a 1942 65 hp L4 Cub,£1250 per share, £200/annum and £35/hr wet.That's it.
All in all , I bet I get better smiles per pound than you lot do;)

You'll note the Gorilla had a J3 for years before he got into the Yak.

Nowadays, his widest grins in the Cub are to be had watching me trying to get into - and worse, out of - the bloody thing.

Of course, I'm sure your Saga Happy Sunshine Holidays L4 leaves you with a huge grin on your face - just don't dribble while you're doing so, or nurse will ground you.

[TheGorrilla]

YouTube - 2002 Wheels and Wings Airshow - Flying Farmer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDrsG4msw8g)

6:50 is quite amusing! ;)

[eharding]

Flying a YAK is just the aerial equivalent of ploughing with my 1975 David Brown Tractor!

Stik - you're not doing it right - it should be more like trying to set a lap record at the Nürburgring in a Range Rover, while towing your tractor.

He does have a point though - a Pitts S2 does deliver a better price/performance ratio, and *everyone* should have some Pitts time - but you just don't get the same heavy-metal buzz in a Pitts that the Yak delivers.

Do both, that's my advice.

[Vino Collapso]

As someone who got ripped off owning a Yak I would advise caution.

Ours was condemned as having spar corrosion to the point that the repair would have been in excess of its value. Subsequently this un-airworthy airframe was bought off us for peanuts then flown to Germany (along with one other 'suffering' the same problem). I now see both the aircraft have been flying quite happily in Germany for over two years with no sign of major work to the airframe.

Yak sales and maintenance in the UK is controlled by a cartel of two organisations. If you try to use another organisation info is fed back from the east to these guys who promptly say 'we know you approaching other places for repair'.

If your Yak is pre-1990 build then be prepared for a 'corrosion' issue to arise due to alleged poor quality of metal when the maintenance company deems it.

Operating costs......

The Yak was based upon the USSR requirement for it to be returned to the factory every 500 hours for a total rebuild. (Kept the peasants in employment). For UK permit the UK dealers have agreed a system of replacing items on a timed basis, then getting Yak Design Bureau to sign off the work every 1000 hours or so. Some components will not last much in excess of 700 hours such as undercarriage rams which we had more than a few 'overhauled' units fitted.

For a comfortable cruise you will exceed 70 lph of Avgas and 1 litre of W100 per hour. Anything less than setting 70% rpm/700 mg will feel lumpy and soggy.

The average quoted figures for an annual will be for a 'new' airframe like driving a new car. When the aircraft grows older the figures also grow. If I could be bothered to go up into the attic I could quote some figures that would make your eyes water.

The engine has a TBO of 500 hours (750 if it is factory new for the first overhaul). New/ovehauled engine prices are riising.

Absolutely great machine which I flew for 7 years ruined by money grabbing maintenance and Yak Design Bureau.

[Vatican69]

Ok so the Pitts S2 is a possibility, but I have to say I'd be a bit nervous about the landing and ground handling characteristics.

What about a T67M260, I haven't seen many around, but I learnt on one a few years back, anyone got any idea how much they go for?

The other possible contender was a Chippie!

[Lister Noble]

Of course, I'm sure your Saga Happy Sunshine Holidays L4 leaves you with a huge grin on your face - just don't dribble while you're doing so, or nurse will ground you.

I use baby bibs,I have lots of different colours and pretty patterns,the nurse makes sure I'm all cleaned up on landing then wheels me back to the care home.:E

I have flown with Stik and in an Extra so have seen the other side,trouble is negative G and the bib;)

Lister:)

[Vatican69]

What's the story with Starduster Too's....any good? Looks like the kind of thing we'd be interested in, plus a lot cheaper to own and operate than a 52.

[stiknruda]

Stardusters are very pretty. Skybolts are heavy. Neither has the balance, poise or performance of Curtis' design. I am very heavily biased but I'm not wrong!

The Pitts has an undeserved reputation re landing - there are folk who can teach you to put it down safely in the UK.

Lister - I am shooting tomorrow but may be beer-able over the w/e.

(And Lister does have a BEAUTIFUL old car!)

Stik

[Vatican69]

Sitk,

Thanks for your help so far, if I might beg your indulgence a little more.

I'm thinking the Yak is going to be too costly to run.

The Pitts for the right price (we would of course get the appropriate training) looks great, but with no intention of entering comps of anything like that (I haven't flown fixed wing for about 5 years or done aeros for that long either) I wonder whether it would be more than we'd need.

The other A/C that have come to my attention are the Acrosport 2, Starduster Too and the Skybolt.

I have been through G-INFO and there aren't many of them around, are they easy enough to import? Not really interested in building one...lack of time!

We looked at the T67 too (both trained on it), but we would want the 260 and babcock have a bit of a monopoly there.

You've already mentioned the Skybolt is heavy, prohibitively so? Any thoughts on the others?

Cheers

Vatican

[Lister Noble]

Stik,
We are out Sunday lunchtime for a few,but Saturday early evening could be a goer or maybe next week?
Lister:)

[VictorGolf]

Just caught up with this thread and I think your figure of £1K for hangarage is a bit light, especially in the South of the country. OK for outside parking but that would rule out the Pitts I guess.

[stiknruda]

Vat69 (that shows my age!)

I can pretty much predict what will happen if you go down the Skybolt, Hatz, Acrosport, Starduster - you'll absolutely love it. Then some bastard will give you a go in an Eagle or a Pitts and you'll feel cheated... and after some time you'll end up with a Pitts! If you don't believe me, I can point you at many who have trodden the same path.

You are both obviously ex-mil - when have you ever had too much power to weight ratio?

Yes importing is perfectly feasible - I've been involved with 2 Eagles, 3 Pitts and various lesser machines.

I do know of a good Eagle that could be crated up next month - share space with Zulu Alpha's new machine in the same box and be flying mid spring. PM me or ZA for more details.

Hope that helps,

Happy New Year to all

Stik

(Lister - slight disruption to normal service here at NTF, will call you Sat!)

[martinprice]

As a rookie Pitts pilot who just transitioned from a Super Decathlon I can back up Stik's comments.

1. Your first Pitts flight is like crack. There is no going back.

2. An awful lot of the Pitts' reputation on landing/ground handling is overblown. It's no Citabria but it's a very honest plane and does exactly what you tell it to do. My pre-takeoff checklist has an extra "head out of backside" check at the end and if you follow that golden rule you should be OK.

Get lots and lots of good spin training from somebody that really knows what they're doing.

[Vatican69]

Stik,

Current Mil, and you're not wrong, I live limited power and it sucks!!!

So Pitts s2 or Eagle is your call!

Thanks for all your advice, we are out of area at the moment, looking to do something when we get back. If we are still up for it will PM you in due course if that's ok.

Happy new year to you all. Stay safe!

Vatican

[Zulu Alpha]

The Eagle is a good Pitts substitute if you are not into hard aeros and the front seat is much more spacious. It is also an LAA permit aircraft so cheaper to run. The Pitts S2As are almost all certified so more expensive to maintain.

The Eagle is a very good alternative to the YAK.

The YAK is a great aircraft but fuel consumption is a killer, hence the low prices.

None of these is a patch on a good monoplane though!!!!

ZA
:E

[eharding]

None of these is a patch on a good monoplane though!!!!
:E

Just you wait till Greenpeace and Al Gore find out how much carbon you've got in that Zivko spar though - they'll have you lynched.

Should have stuck with a nice, sustainable wooden wing.....

[stiknruda]

Vat69 et chum,

Come visit when you get back. (I have a strip and helipad in LFA9)

Keep safe!


Given that there are two of you, do you really need a two seater?


Stik


Martin Price - the strongest drug I do is called ale, but your post had me laughing out loud!! Happy Pitts-ing!

[Vatican69]

Stik,

Cheers, will have a chat with my oppo. Two seater so we can take friends and family etc...

Vatican