Aspen KASE

[Meatwad]

Anyone with bizjet experience in Aspen. Mainly interested in VFR/IFR departure arrival hints, cautions, or any other info. I hear it is a pain to fly in and out of there.

Thanks

[ab33t]

Have a look on Youtube some videos on there and then download the plate , interesting to say the least

[ed1016nw]

Fully configured at redtable or you will have a difficult time getting down, we had a company policy of going missed if we diden't see the runway at 10800.

[WSUshox]

ASE is really not as bad as many make it out to be. Take your time, get fully configured early and take it slow. Our company policy is, if you don't have the runway insight by the FAF. Then we go missed. If the weather is down that day, plan on Eagle or Rifle. Carry extra gas, you may have to hold. Have fun!

[Meatwad]

Thanks for the replys. I have a question about the departure procedure? When IFR do you see a problem meeting the obstacle climb requirement of 650'/nm single engine? Is there any aircraft that can actually do that at a field elevation of 7000' and a decent load of fuel? I have heard many people have to wait until the mountains are totally unobscured to leave legally. Thoughts? Experience? Im trying to avoid having to fly to Colorado Springs or Pueblo to refuel.

[Empty Cruise]

Yes, there are several types out there that will do it. However, need a full obstacle analysis, not just the SARDD or LINDZ departures. The SIDs are build according to TERPS and thus may include several obstacles that need not be accounted for.

Regarding the types good to do it - well, when we were last there on a sunny day, loads of all sorts of aircraft departing and landing. When we departed on a sh@tty day, the CJ1s, Avantis and Be400s had mysteriously vanished.

Arrival will probably be more of an issue. With departures on 33 while approaches are in progress for 15, less than standard seperation is a fact of life - but it also means that you often will not be able to descend W of the LOC to lose height, so even in VMC conditions you'll need a fair ROD to get in.

IMC - no thanks, it's either the circling in good viz below the clouds or a trip to RIL or EGE. Do people land straight in 15 from minima at all? Our ship[ can't get dragged up enough, but others might :confused: Wanted a F40-setting for xmas, didn't get one :{

[WSUshox]

Most aircraft can not meet the Climb Requirments when following the FAA Departure Procedures. However, many can meet the climb requirments if they follow the APG (Aircraft Performance Group) departure procedure. We use the APG departure, it allows us to go with a higher take-off weight, and temp. than what the AFM would allow. Plus it is perfectly safe and legal to do so. APG could be a whole other discusion in its self, but for further check

www.apg.aero (http://www.apg.aero)

[Meatwad]

do you know how much apg.com's procedure costs? How does that work?

I understand if you can leave VFR from Aspen ( scattered or clouds not obscuring terrain) then, no need for IFR Obs. climb performance

[Empty Cruise]

Meatwad,

Even if VFR, you'll still need to asess all obstacles you intend to overfly. Given that no standard VFR departure procedure exists, that will prolly mean getting some 1:25000 charts - or the wellies on and theodolit in hand and do it the hard way.

Just because you're VFR will not guarantee that you meet your obstacle clearance requirements, and will almost put money on you not having enough horizontal obstacle clearance if you climb out through Roaring Fork Valley to the NW :}

What aircraft you taking in there?

[WSUshox]

That is correct. If leaving VFR you legally only have to make the 1.6 climb grad. I'm sure you can do that.

As for cost of APG, I am not sure what that runs. I must say that if you routinely fly from mountainous airports it is well worth the cost. They can make you a custom departure from any airport in the world (private or public) in about an hour.

[con-pilot]

Meatwad, what type aircraft will you be taking into ASE? I have flown a DC-3*, Kingair 90/200, Jet Commander, Saber 40/65, Westwind II, Falcon 50/50EX and a 900EX into ASE. This was on a somewhat regular basis for nearly twenty years. The Falcon 50/900EX has the best performance.

The type of aircraft is very, very important.

One important thing to remember about departing ASE. It is down hill, decreasing ground elevation, all the way to Grand Junction after taking off from ASE.


* The DC-3 only once, boss decided it took too long to use on an ASE run again.

[Meatwad]

Cessna 501

[Empty Cruise]

Meatwad - would have a very close look at obstacle clearance, even VFR. The statutory 1,6% requirement means jack all if you impact the terrain. That said, I'd suspect you'd be able to fly privately out of there if you follow Roaring Fork Valley.

Aspen is deffo not the place for those who live by the old "we'll just avoid obstacles visually"-track. You need a plan andsome numbers to back it up :ouch:

[con-pilot]

Okay, sorry, I do not have any experience operating a Citation in ASE. I have seen a lot of them operating in and out of there, so it must have pretty good performance; in the winter. In the summer, from the people I have talked to that fly Citation 501s, you probably will have to stop at JNC or PUB or one of the Denver area airports before going to your destination.

What ever you do, don't push weight or weather operating in and out of ASE. As I previously posted, I have a great deal of ASE experience. However, even with all that experience operating around ASE I never took that airport for granted, no matter the weather or temperature.

As for departure in marginal VMC weather, I would highly recommend that you do not depart until you can see the 'triangle'. The 'triangle' is the inter-most tops of the mountains that surround the airport. Have a someone there show you what is meant by seeing the triangle.

Don't be bashful or ashamed telling the folks at the FBO that this is your first trip into ASE and try to talk to some of the charter pilots or other pilots that are experienced ASE jet pilots.

Every pilot that has flown into ASE always had their first time.

Now what I'm getting ready to post a point may seem rather stupid and contradict what I just posted about pushing weather, but bear with me. Never use the reported weather at ASE, unless it is just down to nothing, as a final deciding factor for attempting to go to ASE. As long as you have a close alternate with good weather it is worth going to take a look. Another hint is call the ASE tower or FBO and see if other aircraft are getting in when the weather is reported bad. You need to realize that ASE sits at the end of a valley. Sometimes the weather, for lack of a better term, gets stuck at the end of the valley over the airport, but the north end of the valley is wide open and many times you can make a visual approach and never fly through a cloud.

The same can hold true for departure. There have been many days that the reported weather is below takeoff minimums, but there will be aircraft landing one right after the other. Reason, a very thin layer of clouds with poor surface visibility, but when you takeoff you will remain visual for the entire takeoff and climb out. Of course you can only do this under Part 91.

Bottom line; ASE is a very dangerous airport if not respected. Never take anything for granted, always leave a back door open and never, ever push getting in or out.

In truth there has been days that I was the only aircraft (not 121) to land in ASE, then on the other hand there were days that I was about the only aircraft that couldn't land at ASE.

Two best alternates are Vail and Rifle as per driving time, Rifle usually is the shortest.

Oops, forgot one very important thing. ATC non-standard separation on landing and departing aircraft. ASE is a one way airport under most conditions. You land 33 and depart 15, this of course creates the conditions for head on traffic conflicts. Do not be surprised to hear the towner to clear someone to takeoff, heading right at you, when you are on a five or less mile final. The folks in the tower are very, very good at what they do there. The tower will have you stay to the right side of the valley and the departing aircraft to make a slight right turn. I cannot count the number of times I have landed and departed ASE and have passed opposite direction traffic at the same altitude with one or two miles separation. This usually only happens during peak traffic seasons and only in very good weather.

Anyway, have a great trip and be careful.

[JetA]

Also make contact with a limo service before you depart just in case you have to go to RIL. Your pax will appreciate you setting up a a ride just in case you miss at ASE. The wait for a ride can be longer than 3 hours especially if everyone is missing and going to RIL.

Our company policy is to go miss if we don't have the airport at DOYPE or ALLIX. Another reminder is if you miss climb and don't make your turn until you are at the MAP. There are big rock right there if you turn early.

Good luck we are all counting on you.:ok:

[Meatwad]

Thanks for all the good info. Im still not exactly clear on departing in extreme VFR. (mountains unobscured). It seems im getting mixed signals. Some posters are saying I need to have the climb requirements met anyway, and some are saying just fly the valley. I always thought that if you are IFR and assigned an obstacle DP you must be able to comply to climb with OEI. If not assigned and depart VFR, you can see and avoid.

I ask all this since I am relatively new to turbojets, upgraded from part 23 turboprops recently.


There are some cool things about jets, but it would sure be nice to leave ASE in a turboprop instead.


I have heard others tell me about the Triangle, or mountains. One story told to me was involved a Hawker taxiing out and the mountains started to get obscured by clouds. The pilot decided to go back to the FBO knowing IFR obstacle departure was not going to work OEI. As he entered the FBO a gentleman asked him why he didn't go. He explained. The gentleman said, "Good call." He was an FAA inspector.

Thanks

[con-pilot]

Thanks for all the good info. Im still not exactly clear on departing in extreme VFR. (mountains unobscured). It seems im getting mixed signals.

Just check your aircraft performance charts. Don't take my word or anybody else's word for what your aircraft can do. The only encouragement I can offer you is that Citation 501s operate in and out of Aspen all year long, so either they can do that legally, or all of them cheat.

I'd think that the aircraft can do it legally. But as I said, I don't know very much about the 501. Check your charts.

Just out curiosity, what type of turbo-prop were you flying?

[Empty Cruise]

Meatwad,

Before you fly the valley - assess what obstacles are relevant (if commercial ops). If you have to account for an obstacle - even though you know you'll be able to "see and avoid" - it can still ruin your day. If you have a certain lateral assessment criteria (i.e. can I clear that obstacle with enough lateral distance that I don't need to be able to clear it vertically?) in your Ops manual, you need to do the numbers game and stick by it. If private ops - no worry, enjoy the trip. Awsome place :ok:

As for TPs vs jets - performance is king, nuf' said ;)

[Meatwad]

Part 91 (Private)

Believe me I love Jets for 1000 reasons and TPs for 2. (fuel economy and part 23 non-jet BS)

[Empty Cruise]

You'll have a ball, then. Enjoy it, and remember to tell us how it went :ok:

[xsbank]

It's been a while for me but if you are not current at KASE, aren't you required to do 'special procedures training?'

[con-pilot]

It's been a while for me but if you are not current at KASE, aren't you required to do 'special procedures training?'

For Part 91 no. Now as for the special procedure approaches, yes, even Part 91 must have the special procedures training.

[Zeffy]

Some posters are saying I need to have the climb requirements met anyway, and some are saying just fly the valley. I always thought that if you are IFR and assigned an obstacle DP you must be able to comply to climb with OEI. If not assigned and depart VFR, you can see and avoid.


SIDs assume all engine operations. This fact has been spelled out quite explicitly in AC 120-91 (http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/list/AC%20120-91/$FILE/AC120-91.pdf).


7. TERPS CRITERIA VERSUS ONE-ENGINE-INOPERATIVE REQUIREMENTS.
a. Standard Instrument Departures (SID) or Departure Procedures (DP) based on TERPS or ICAO Procedures for Air Navigation Services—Aircraft Operations (PANS-OPS) are based on normal (all engines operating) operations. Thus, one-engine-inoperative obstacle clearance requirements and the all-engines-operating TERPS requirements are independent, and one-engine-inoperative procedures do not need to meet TERPS requirements.

Also see AIM (change 3) 5-2-8 (http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ATPubs/AIM/CHG3AIM8-27-09.pdf) -- page 109 of the .pdf file.

The APG web site (http://apg.aero/MW/) has a number of videos (right side of the home page) that may help clear up some of the long standing confusion, urban legends and old wives' tales.