Is SAX going to order more Q400's and CRJ900's?

[CRJ Next Gen]

Just curious to get thoughts about whether South African Express will be ordering further examples of the Q400 and possibly the CRJ900 planes?

I realize that the airline has 2 CRJ700's, but weren't these two larger CRJ variants only an interim solution until the CRJ900 NextGens and more Q400's started to replace the older Q300's/CRJ-200 fleets?

[reptile]

Yes and Yes - hope that answers both questions.

[gravity enemy]

I presume they will become a bit more popular and expand a little, with Airlink being in the mess that it is. I hope sincerely that Airlink recoveres from this all, but it's going to be very hard to win back passengers, with all the bad publicity. Having said that however, still many people think that SA Airlink and SA Express are part of SAA, so they might think the whole company is unsafe to fly with. SA aviation has had two rather dark years in aviation. 2008 was notorious for GA aircraft going down, and now 2009 with it's Airlink troubles.

Merry Christmas to all and I hope the new year brings new and better prospects for aviation in SA. Some 900's and Q400's would be great indeed!

[DASHER 8]

Sax is currently busy with a re-branding excercise, which for the most part serves to differantiate SAX from SAA and SA Airlink.

[Flyer14]

True story was talking to some relatives today and the few that did actually know that Link was not part of SAA, had no idea that there's a difference between SAX and Airlink.

[grjplanes]

Yes and Yes - hope that answers both questions.


This has been said before, more than a year ago. The question here is when. When the CR700s came it was said they're on short-lease untill some of these new aircraft arrive, but still no announcement was ever made that SAX ordered Q400s and CR900s. So has it been ordered already, or can we expect an announcement of an order in the near future?
They'll probably have to keep some -300s for operations to Richards Bay at least?

[reptile]

The collapse in demand following the economic recession meant that the introduction of larger aircraft has been moved forward by at least 18 months.

An additional CRJ 200 will join the fleet early 2010 and there is a possibility of a Q400 and CRJ 700 being added later in the year.

Some -300's will stay to serve Kimberley and Richards Bay once the fleet replacement is in full swing.

Recruitment has also slowed down as a consequence. 20 candidates will start the interview process on 5 January 2010, with 10 positions up for grabs.

[747TDR]

Any idea what requirements they're looking for?

[Coil]

By all accounts not a bad company to work for and the usual 1500 min hours with some turbine time, if you're a chic even less required and if you are from the previously disadvantaged you're a shoe in.

However the most important item on your CV is the ability to be treated like a piece of dog poo by most of the instructors, in particular the ex Air Force ones who still think they're gods gift to aviation and base their training on a fear as opposed to actual learning...

In other words the ability to take sarcasim and condescending instructions throughout your training makes you perfect!!:ok:

[747TDR]

LOL Coil. Well I'm far off 1500hrs and do not meet the other two requirements so I guess my CV will stay neatly packed away for quite some time.

:ugh:

[ERASER]

An additional CRJ 200 will join the fleet early 2010 and there is a possibility of a Q400 and CRJ 700 being added later in the year.

Saw an all white CRJ200 (IIRC ZS MNI??) going past us, is it a new one for the SAX fleet?

E

[BEEDEE]

Coil ---- I AM one of the SAX instructors and I find your comments largely unfounded, way off the mark and very offensive, ESPECIALLY considering that these comments come from someone who doesn't even work for SAX. IF you ever get into SAX, you'll see just how wrong you are.

The saying: "jealousy will get you..........." springs to mind.

[Coil]

Gee BeeDee, the truth must really hurt !! as I hadn't even started to get offensive ?? in fact my comments were quite toned down and could be a whole lot worse. If you are really a SAX instructor and have no idea what I'm talking about then you must have your head buried quite firmly in the sand ( which happens to be one of the problems ) and besides I didn't say I didn't work at Sax , in fact I do and know exactly what I'm talking about :=

[nugpot]

Saw an all white CRJ200 (IIRC ZS MNI??) going past us, is it a new one for the SAX fleet?

NMI came out of C-check (and paint) before the new SAX colours were announced, so it temporarily became a white-tail. It might go to the DRC and would then be painted in Congo Express? colours.

[JTrain]

Nugpot (or any other well-informed SAX person):

What is the story of the intra-DRC flights that SAX is planning. I've been hearing rumors of Lubumbashi - Kinshasa for well over a year, but no actions. Is anything firming up?

Thanks

JT

[nugpot]

JT, I used to be a bit better informed, but AFAIK, SAX is still actively pursuing the DRC domestic routes and current date (planned) is end of Jan 2010. This date has been moved numerous times, so I don't know whether it will happen this time.

The plans are far advanced and the crews had been rostered to start in Nov, then Dec and now end of Jan, so I really don't know.

[Alternative]

At this stage it seems like it will Hopefully commence around mid- Feb....
AFAIK 25 people called for interviews for about 14 slots,commencing 05th Jan upto around the 11th.


Seems like SAX are now doing Sim Rides as well, I assume it is because of the high wash rate experienced last year..............however in my opinion thats not going to solve the problem,a fresh approach is required!

[darkwing]

What do you mean a fresh approach?

[BEEDEE]

Coil ---- I owe you an apology. From the tone of the first sentence or two of your original post, I was misled into assuming that you were a SAX wannabe rather than a SAX alreadyam! Based on this, I retract my reference to "jealousy".

Nevertheless, your accusations of blindness are wrong......you'll see in my post that I used the phrase "largely unfounded". I am fully aware of what is going on, thus my use of the word LARGELY. What offended me most was your claim "most of the instructors".

I trust that this will clear the air.

Regards ---- Brian Davidson.

[reptile]

Coil.....interesting couple of posts.

As anyone who's been exposed to SAAF training will tell you, SAAF instructors do not sugar coat sh!t. If your flying is not up to standard you get told that - in no uncertain terms. I've been at SAX for ten years and have never had even the slightest problem with any of the instructors. The fact that you feel like you're getting treated like crap tells me you should possibly be paying a bit more attention to what you're doing in the cockpit and less time trying to blame others.

[DASHER 8]

I too have been exposed to 10yrs of SAX (airforce and civvie) instructors and have enjoyed all of it and have never had the slightest bit of trouble or unfair comment from any of them.:ok:

[Mirek]

Just my small voice to discussion. One of the best with SAX is unique professional training. Disciplined and very clear way of operations (SOP etc). This achievement is due to extremely professional Training Department. My experience with SAX never was easy but always fair and very beneficial to me and this is eight years with SAX before experiencing some "First World" Dash 8 operators.

[reptile]

I dont work for SAX and this is the first time I have heard anything negative about the SAX training so I have no comment or opinion on it....

And that is where you should've stopped typing. :ugh:

You simply cannot compare the current SAAF to the SAAF when we were there - the only thing in common is the name.

Mirek - Good to hear from you! How's your Spanish coming on?

[errorplaneone]

A certain amount of thread-drift here, but some comments posted regarding SAX training deserve a considered response, as a fair degree of emotion is evident - even from experienced SAX pilots.

1) Is perception not reality for the individual? Therefore there are current- and former-SAX employees reading & responding who have/had varying experiences in their dealings with the training dept.
2) There are different instructional cultures in the CRJ and Dash fleets - this is undeniable by recent 'veterans' of both pools. Personality clashes & differences of opinion will invariably arise between instructors and pilots.
3) Virtually every pilot (including, most likely, those who have been 'washed' from SAX training) will agree that all flight training is solidly grounded in SOP. These SOP's are strictly enforced across both fleets to the benefit of experienced and inexperienced pilots alike. Compromising would likely lead to more CRM-related incidents, and potentially to accidents.
4) Flight training at all levels is not easy and not intended to be - the cost of training is too high to allow it to continue indefinitely. Furthermore, not everybody has the same set of skills & abilities - the statisticians will produce a bell-curve that shows how people at the edges of competency (itself a variable concept) will inevitably be excluded - this is true in all spheres of life.

CRJ:
The method of teaching in the CRJ pool is more military in style (save for the two civilian-trained instructors - and what a great pleasure it is to learn from BD & PB plus the CP: FduTleR) and is not always conducive to learning unless perhaps your own background is from the same military environment and you're familiar with it. Is it really enjoyable and/or helpful to be shouted at while in the simulator? Is there not enough pressure as it is?

DH8:
The attitude of the Dash instructors makes for a pleasant learning environment and permits for more of a team effort in attaining initial and on-going competency. They allow room for discussion and disagreement while maintaining the standards.

There are obviously many diffferent methods of imparting information and interacting with crew-in-training, but the Dash instructors (also ex-military interestingly) seem to have achieved this in a more human and 21st century manner than the CRJ instructors.

[Alternative]

You've summed it up quite well!!!!

[Foo-Fighter]

read with the intended humour to it, i have to agree with coil in many (if not all) ways.
i'm sorry whom that might offend (honestly and truly i am), but his sentiments reflect far more of the pilot opinions at SAX than people would care to admit.

that said, errorplaneone does sum it up very well indeed.

[Coil]

Reptile Said : The fact that you feel like you're getting treated like crap tells me you should possibly be paying a bit more attention to what you're doing in the cockpit and less time trying to blame others.

Let me start by saying you've got to be ex military with a response like that ! Error One has actually responded better than I could have and has expressed views I would agree with 100%, Reptile you're another one who clearly has there head firmly buried in the sand. Of my f/o's I fly with 90-99 percent will say there training was the worst experience of their lives, that is fact and not hearsay.

Do I blame others ? Hardly and don't quite know what you're on about, sort of drivvling on it seems.

So to be more specific and give credit where due, The jet fleet has two normal instructors, we know who there are BeeDee and PB, the rest need their circuits re-set and a course on manners and instruction the 21st century way .

The Dash fleet has certainly improved dramatically over the last few years and the last 3-4 positions have been a breath of fresh air, and so as to avoid being accused of being "anti SAF" all of those besides one are ex SAF and one is ex military..

My post was to mearly highlight what is most definately an issue at SAX and is best spoken about and not ignored as is normally the SAF way with rank and seniority taking priority over relevant issues.



The EX SAF guys who have not yet embraced a civilian culture need to look at themselves very closely and need to take critisiscm where it is needed, they are no longer a bunch of elite people who think they are above civilian pilots. We are all adults who take pride in our work and Ex SAF guys seem to think that they earn respect by keeping to rigid military style cockpit gradients and mannerisms, they need to be dumped as they are dangerous. One can run a brilliant flight deck by being open and civil and in fact when one doesn't have to demand respect by being an assh... respect comes naturally and is more genuine. ( Just my experience )

SAX is a civilian company and needs those hard asses to come to the party, we adapt to them but they don't either have the curtisy to adapt to us or frankly don't care, that is simply rude and arogant.

Mirek I am surprised by your comment as one of the reasons you left was due to the training and that is from you own mouth, I think time has allowed you to remember the fond times as opposed to the bad times.

Dasher 8 , well you're probably so happy you could come back to SAX and feel you owe a sense of graituity, because I've also heard you talk about how "hectic" our instructors can be.

Bee DEE you're great and I love you.

FooFighter thanks for having the balls to say what most people are to scared to say for fear of damage to their careers.

Lastly I have no problem with what the instructors teach I simply ask to put the methods you use in the after burner and try return to humanity, of course it applies only to those types mentioned above.:ugh:

[Mirek]

Coil, I like your post but...our life can be amazing! Sometimes we need perspective to be objective. I experienced troubles with my training but I have to admit that lot of it was created by myself. OK, sometimes I expected more patience with "my accent" and I experienced even personal clashes, but mostly I try always work on myself. I didn't said that training was ever the reason for going to Europe, this troubles I had already long time behind me...it was reason, serious one, but definitely not personal or training related. Back to perspective. Last two years shockingly proved to me that level of SAX training (I am not again elaborating on its methods) is by far superior. SAX pilots after all sweat can be sure that they are one of the best trained in the world. I don't know, if its possible to maintain this level of professionalism with other methods. Otherwise I will support your crusade. If I have to choose between methods and final effect I am opting for the final result. However you have to admit that last years the methods are also much more "civilised" and I believe professional standard is maintained. Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle? And at the end; What about SAX expansion and business plans?

[Foo-Fighter]

hmmm....i heard the 'business plan' is where it all fell apart

...but what do we know, really?

[contrails8]

:D:D:D:D:Dwhat a sigh of relief. coil. you said what no onehasever dared to say. i read every single word in your post and you are 100% correct. even for the ppl you love.

i say coil for president!!!

[CRJ Next Gen]

Is it true that Horizon has leased out another CRJ700 to South African Express?

Will SAX be extending the leases on their other two CRJ700's? Can we expect anymore CRJ700's from Horizon if this aircraft is indeed heading for South Africa?

Hopefully an order for CRJ900's is still in the pipeline for SAX!

[Chunks]

Anyone have any idea when SAX is recruiting again?

[DASHER 8]

As soon as the World Cup is over the recruitment process will continue.

[nathanv]

third rj700 zs-nbd already online for a couple of days, although not painted in sax colours yet.

[von_Stalhein]

You must remember that a lot of, if not most of, the people being trained at SAX are low-timers who come from contract, charter or instruction ops. SAX does indeed provide a better level of training syllabus than those operations. And by using simulators the student feels he/she has moved up in the training world big-time. This gives the illusion of excellent training to them. But the way the training is carried out there leaves a lot to be desired. Middle-of-the-night sim sessions for initial ratings, the ex-mil instructors lording it over them, shouting in the sim, being the big hevs when actually they are in SAX because their erstwhile ex-mil colleagues in the bigger airlines didnt want them there. And it shows.

I completely agree with Coil. The ex-military types at SAX, especially on the CRJ fleet, need to have a very good look at themselves. Their egos are huge. 'Don't eat until I've eaten', hey RI? WTF? Pulling little leather flying gloves on to take off and land with, BG?! Yet they fly little pisscat jets. And its not just the instructors - plenty captains there who act the same. And the company itself isn't all that much to write home about. At all. Pretty fricken disorganised is as far as I'll go now.

There are some good guys who instruct at SAX, but they are in the minority. Compare that with the other airlines, SAA, Comair, 1Time - there are very few if not zero wound-up, cynical, narcisstic instructors.

I could go on but they're actually not worth it.

[saxdh8c]

Greetings to all.I filled in the online form a while back.I got an automated response,but I havent got any reply fom them.Has any one been contacted?

I notice the online application did not have fields for flight time and type rating.I thought this were necessary for any pilot application?

Does anyone know an email address or physical add, where I can send a CV with all my hours and types?

DASHER 8:You mentioned recruitment to continue after 2010 soccer,is it on the dash 8 300?as Iam typed on it.

Out of curiosity,will Sax move dash8 training from CAE Spain to the Flight Safety Johannesburg?thanks in advance:ok:

[CRJ Next Gen]

Any updates on the possible order and arrival of CRJ900's and further Q400's?

Apparently Horizon is selling a further 8 CRJ700's, is South African Express adding anymore to the 3 that they are currently leasing?

[nugpot]

I heard a rumour that another two are already on their way.

[grjplanes]

SAX is replacing the Q400 with CR7 aircraft on JNB-GRJ as from next week, so unless they're pulling CR7s from other routes it means they must be getting more.

[Foo-Fighter]

So, what's the word? What is Sax getting aeroplane wise? Wasn't the big announcement supposed to be yesterday?

[DASHER 8]

It sounds like 7 more Q 400's arriving. 1 per month starting in Jan 2011. And thats just the short term plan.

[saxdh8c]

DASHER 8,So what happens to the q300s,are they going to be phased out completely?Is sax still hiring? And if so what are the realistic hiring minima hours wise. What kind of experience do recently hired F/Os on the dash 8 have.:ok:

[Foo-Fighter]

Sax doesn't have Q300's.

I really referring to the re-fleeting...not the interm plan 'till we get there. Bombardier or Embraer? No word yet...

[saxdh8c]

Sax doesn't have Q300's.

I really referring to the re-fleeting...not the interm plan 'till we get there. Bombardier or Embraer? No word yet...


Wrong!!! see here http://http://www.flyexpress.aero/our-aircraft.html

[DASHER 8]

No formal decision yet on the Embraer/Bombardier score, but more RJ 700's and the Q-400's are on the way in the shorter term.
Long term my guess is a mixed fleet of Q400's and Embraer's.
Dash 300's might stay as well for now and the hiring is on going.

[CRJ Next Gen]

Hey DASHER 8,

So it seems as if SAX is not very happy with the larger CRJ700's as they might be replaced by ERJ-175/190's? I thought that because of SAX's large fleet of CRJ200/700's and Q300/Q400's, the CRJ900 would be the natural progression for them with respect to training, spare parts, etc.

Seems like Embraer is winning all of the competitions these days, hopefully the CSeries will have better success for Bombardier.

[DASHER 8]

Sax is loving the CRJ 700, but its the TOTAL package that will or will not win our board members signatures.

[transducer]

sax q300

Sax doesn't have Q300's.

I really referring to the re-fleeting...not the interm plan 'till we get there. Bombardier or Embraer? No word yet...

Wrong!!! see here http://http://www.flyexpress.aero/our-aircraft.html

With a PPrune name of saxdh8c you should now that there are only -300 models and not -q300 models in SAX as correctly stated in the aforementioned website. By the way it is DHC and not dh8c

[saxdh8c]

transducer: I see! I thought sax had the later versions with noise and vibration suppression system.Any way the point is sax does have 300 series dash 8!

I know its DHC-8, thats what I have on my foreign licence,but when I got the endorsement on my RSA licence the CAA put DH8c.I pointed it out to them,but they said thats what they have for the 300 series on their system.

I dont work for sax,just use the user name because of my interest in the company!

cheers man:ok:

[Foo-Fighter]

Q400's and Embaer 175's is the official word then....for all of you who cares. Lets hope parliament approves it.

(wasn't even going to respond to 'saxdh8c'...but thanx transducer)

[MALLY]

Goodday Foo-Fighter,
Any news/info regarding the Engineering Type training for the 175's , will this be done 'in-house' or via an outside training facility?
Best regards

[transducer]

Auto thrust, fly-by wire and a scratch and sniff pad for the avionics! Sweeeeeetttttt!!!! Yeah I know that is already out there but, sweeeeetttt!!!

[Foo-Fighter]

Mally

What i hear from the guys on the ground in CPT is that the JHB boys will be going to Brazil, and then they will train the CPT guys. Obviously some of them aint too happy about that little rumour.

[nugpot]

That is the best news this year. If I can avoid another overseas trip - great!

These a/c have not yet been ordered. I think who goes for training when and where is pretty far down the list of priorities. In any case, the CPT guys have to make the money to pay for the damn things. We can't expect the JNB crews to fly more than 40 hrs per month - they might get tired! :E

[reptile]

Smart money would be backing the first E-jet in CPT. You need a new source Foo-Man ; )

[DASHER 8]

Finally the necessary signatures have been acquired and 7 additional Q-400's are finally on there way ex Flybe (UK) in approx 3 weeks. :)

[grjplanes]

Will these then directly replace the Dash8-300s?

Nothing new then, any word on confirmation of the Embraers...or will these also be second-hand?

[DASHER 8]

The first 3 are used and the last 4 are off the production line.

The plan is for them to replace the 300's, except for JNB-RCB, as the work on RCB runway and taxiways to acommodate the Q-400 has not even begun yet.

Delivery dates on the ERJ's is not firmed up yet, but they will be new aircraft.

[ronster]

Virgin in Australia is replacing their ERJ 170's with ATR 72's because they are not making money.
Beware SAX
:ugh:

[nugpot]

Virgin in Australia is replacing their ERJ 170's with ATR 72's because they are not making money.
Beware SAX

Apparently you don't have to make money if you are a state-owned airline. You just have to have the newest and coolest toys. ;) :E

[reptile]

Apparently you don't have to make money if you are a state-owned airline. You just have to have the newest and coolest toys.

Bwahaaaahaaa :ok:

[grjplanes]

Finally the necessary signatures have been acquired and 7 additional Q-400's are finally on there way ex Flybe (UK) in approx 3 weeks.


Has any of these arrived yet or soon on their way?