British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V [Archive] - Page 11

JayPee28bpr

21st Jan 2010, 12:27

I think some people are getting unnecessarily hung up on the legal niceties of this. If PCCC is perceived as being helpful, then BA will "recognise" it in some way, either formally under labour relations law, or simply just by using it informally.

I'll give you an example of the latter. A few pages back Slidebustle detailed some aspects of the new work arrangements she feels aren't working and said "I'm going to feed back to my manager". The impression given is that the fedback will be constructive. Ideally it will involve suggestions of how to change/improve arrangements so they do work. Most importantly, however, such feedback looks as though it will be of the "punters aren't getting what they think they paid for" variety, and not "it isn't in my T&Cs".

Now, imagine she also says, "I'm in PCCC. We've discussed this and suggest we do X, Y, and Z to see if we can make it work. We're happy to trial it for you if you agree". I'm going to assume here that where SB has issues correlates to relatively poor customer feedback. If this is a reasonable assumption, we now have a position where SB's manager also has an opportunity to look smart in front of his/her manager, by identifying the reasons for the poor customer feedback and putting forward some options to try and improve things. Even better for BA generally is that PCCC offers an organised group willing to engage in product development and management from a customer marketing perspective, not one of "does it comply with our work agreements?".

It is clear that a key aim of BA in the current dispute is to ensure it has more flexibility in future to adjust its product offering, rapidly where necessary. The days of having to get Union agreement to hand out hot towels in WT+, for instance, are over I would suggest. BA needs groups like PCCC who are simply willing to engage. This isn't just a CC issue either. It opens up opportunities to empower office-based managers of the in-cabin product to experiment and trial new ideas on a limited basis. This cannot currently be possible if everything requires formal sign off with the Unions before implementation.

So, I can't see why BA would not want to "recognise" PCCC in some way or other. Do people in PCCC care whether this is formal or not? The only area where I can see it to be of immediate concern to people thinking of switching from Unite is in the disciplinary area. Union membership does provide legal rights of representation and attendance on Union officials. However, this is actually more an issue of whether PCCC formally registers as a Union. If it does, then members have a right to representation/attendance whether BA recognises PCCC or not.

In short, if BA sees PCCC as offering opportunities to engage with cabin crew in product development and management, then they'd simply be stupid not to recognise it, however that is defined. As I've said previously, it seems strange that the work group with the biggest face-to-face interraction with customers appears at present to have the least flexibility and involvement in product design and delivery. Their involvement is currently curtailed by a process that over-emphasises the sanctity of existing formal agreements (such things really are not as immutable as the Ten Commandments). The evolution of such a process is the fault of both Unions and previous BA management regimes: managements get the Unions they deserve.

If BA and PCCC develop a relationship initially along the line above, then discussions will naturally evolve to cover other aspects of the relationship, right up to consideration of whether PCCC should negotiate collective agreements for its members, and indeed if members actually want them.

Of course, if PCCC becomes that successful, it will have the challenge of ensuring it does not become just another self-perpetuating bureaucracy that displays all the worst defects of the organisation it is now competing with.

Desertia

21st Jan 2010, 12:40

Even better for BA generally is that PCCC offers an organised group willing to engage in product development and management from a customer marketing perspective, not one of "does it comply with our work agreements?".

Struck->Head->Of Nail

BAcrewboy

21st Jan 2010, 12:54

So, Ottergirl - in your opinion, I should remain a member of Unite? I wish CC89 was still separate....i just don't know what to do - but I def. will not be striking.

abuadnan

21st Jan 2010, 13:53

Completely self-interested question so apologies in advance...

If the worst does happen and BA goes bust, whether due to the strike or something else, what IS the pension situation? I see a lot of people alluding to it. Would we get any benefits to speak of from the Pensions Protection Fund? And what's the position for ex-employees (again, brazen self interest from me in asking)

Ten West

21st Jan 2010, 14:08

PCCC:

What a great idea! :ok:

Sounds like you're onto a winner there and I wholeheartedly wish those of you involved in the formation of the group all the best with it.

BA can still be a World Class company again with the efforts of people like yourselves. Well done!
You may need a more snappy title though. Pee-Cee-Cee-Cee doesn't roll easily off the tongue! P3C or something similar maybe?

midman

21st Jan 2010, 14:10

So, Ottergirl - in your opinion, I should remain a member of Unite? I wish CC89 was still separate....i just don't know what to do - but I def. will not be striking.
If you're only looking for representation in the event of disciplinaries/accidents etc, you can get legal insurance for such events and use legal advice under that cover.

By continuing to pay your subs to Bassa, you are supporting their leaders, their tactics and undermining your own ability to have a future at BA. Those guys you see on telly saying how disgraceful BA have behaved are union employees - they don't work for BA, so couldn't care two hoots if BA went under. (In fact, for the more wildly left wing of them it would represent a victory for the workers over the capitalist system, something they've longed to see.)

I wouldn't give them a penny of my money. Spend it on good legal insurance, and still have peace of mind in both respects.

Oh, and support PCCC, you've nothing to lose by helping it gain a voice!

Papillon

21st Jan 2010, 14:15

Or as I say, you can join a completely different union if that works out cheaper. There are plenty out there. Recognition is not an issue when it comes to legal support.

Glamgirl

21st Jan 2010, 14:26

Ten West,

You may need a more snappy title though. Pee-Cee-Cee-Cee doesn't roll easily off the tongue! P3C or something similar maybe?

PCCC works really well with our cheerleader chant and dances though...:}

Gg (trying to inject a little humour)

I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.

malcolmf

21st Jan 2010, 14:32

I'm afraid the P3C is already taken by a gorgeous Cervelo bike frame. It may not be too confusing though
http://www.totalcycling.com/images/image/20737_155504.jpg

Papillon

21st Jan 2010, 14:33

How about the C3P-O?

Surely no-one's ever used that before?

Ten West

21st Jan 2010, 15:15

Seriously though, I've learned a hell of a lot about unions from this thread.

I'm a member of Unite, much to my displeasure, but I joined it mainly for the workplace representation. My own reps are good guys who I work with on a daily basis, so I'm sure I'd get a decent service from them if I needed it.
I didn't know, for example, that it's possible to opt out of donating funds to Golden Brown and his clueless mates, so I shall investigate further as regards that. :E

Thanks again. :ok:

Professional Cabin Services Organization? Hmm...PCSO. Maybe not! :O

flybymerchant

21st Jan 2010, 15:29

How about ditch one of the Cs?

PCC.....Professional Cabincrew Council or Professional Crew Council?

It may be an idea to avoid the term 'Cabin Crew' in case history repeats itself and people with nothing better to do decide that the term will henceforth be considered offensive and derogatory, like 'Stewardess'

Or go for CPC, Council of Professional Cabincrew

Or how about 'Peace' as in 'PCCCCcccccc', then you can have as many Cs as you like!

Professional, Committed, Caring & Considerate Coalition Council for Continued Conciliation, Coexistent Concentric Cooperation & Codependent Coordination in Companywide Cabin Crew Collaboration

It's got a certain ring to it....!

I think whoever brought up the 'P Cee Cee Cee' being a bit too much of a mouthful has probably got a point though, as that's what people will know you as, rather than what it stands for....I mean, how many people incorrectly think BASSA stands for British Airways S S A?!

My vote's with PCC, but regardless GOOD LUCK to you fine people, I feel sure you ALREADY enjoy the full support and backing of the 30,000 plus employees in British Airways who don't belong to BASSA!! GO GET 'EM!

peace out

Scouser1

21st Jan 2010, 15:30

617sqn

21st Jan 2010, 15:41

BAcrewboy
I can understand your concern about legal cover.Bassa love to boast how you need them to represent you.The fear of being on your own is what they live off.
Ask yourself, which legal team will they use?Will it be the one that advised them on the ballot?
Let's face it they couldn't be bothered to employ a tax specialist to sort out the recent audit.
It's your call, but could you buy a policy for £16 a month?
Could using a no win no fee soliciter work out cheaper?
Do you have confidence in them and trust them?
Ask yourself these questions and make up your mind.

Ten West

21st Jan 2010, 15:59

I'm sure when I joined the union (back in BCAL ground staff days) it was pointed out to us that a portion of the subs went to labour party, and we were instructed how to opt out of that if we so desired....does that not happen nowadays?

Well, it was never pointed out to me. Then again, it's hardly something they'd shout from the rooftops I suppose! ;)

I've always thought it strange that a trade union, whose purported raison d'etre is to protect workers in a particular industry, should align itself with any political party.
Unite are very big on equality. Even to the point of priniting posters extolling their non-discrimination policy, so surely there can be no objection to anyone wanting to opt out of donating to a political party of whatever persuasion?

Anyway, enough thread creep. Thanks to all for your imput. I shall look into it further. :ok:

CPC. Yep. That sounds good to me!

anotherthing

21st Jan 2010, 16:00

PCC = Police Complaints Commission and Press Complaints Commission, so maybe not the best to use!

PCCC is fine on literature, how about when using it in speech saying 'P triple C'?

Dawdler

21st Jan 2010, 16:04

Or go for CPC, Council of Professional Cabincrew

You could be on to something there FBM, CPC already stands for Certificate of Professional Competence in the road transport industry.

TruBlu123

21st Jan 2010, 16:19

If I recall a part of trade union reform introduced by Margaret Thatcher was to prevent a percentage of union subs by default making a contribution to political parties at the diktat of the TU concerned. Legislation was introduced which meant if an individual wished to make such a contribution they had to opt-in instead of making a passive payment in many cases unaware they were doing so.

Now it could be that that piece of TU reform was amended by the current government. Individuals who feel strongly about this should of course contact their respective TU and find out the current situation.

Two-Tone-Blue

21st Jan 2010, 16:37

As I seem to be the only surviving customer on this thread ...

I'll give you an example of the latter. A few pages back Slidebustle detailed some aspects of the new work arrangements she feels aren't working and said "I'm going to feed back to my manager". The impression given is that the fedback will be constructive. Ideally it will involve suggestions of how to change/improve arrangements so they do work. Most importantly, however, such feedback looks as though it will be of the "punters aren't getting what they think they paid for" variety, and not "it isn't in my T&Cs".
Now, imagine she also says, "I'm in PCCC. We've discussed this and suggest we do X, Y, and Z to see if we can make it work. We're happy to trial it for you if you agree". I'm going to assume here that where SB has issues correlates to relatively poor customer feedback. If this is a reasonable assumption, we now have a position where SB's manager also has an opportunity to look smart in front of his/her manager, by identifying the reasons for the poor customer feedback and putting forward some options to try and improve things. Even better for BA generally is that PCCC offers an organised group willing to engage in product development and management from a customer marketing perspective, not one of "does it comply with our work agreements?".

We customers would be grateful for that sort of positive engagement with the company, I suspect. I have previously expressed dissatisfaction with levels of customer service here; I now have a greater understanding of how and why that may have arisen.

The bottom line remains ... that it is the customers who pay to operate the airline. See my earlier post; I'm now taking about a £6k bet on being able to fly in April, following further 'investment' today.

Not a time for posturing, folks, regardless of how strongly some people feel. We, and our money, will simply walk away. And BA goes away with us.

Again, good luck to you all.

wascrew

21st Jan 2010, 16:50

``If you're only looking for representation in the event of disciplinaries/accidents etc, you can get legal insurance for such events and use legal advice under that cover.`

No you cant as I understand it you have to go by BA rules (all the EG`s) and be supported by your reps otherwise you have to represent yourself you cant employ an outsider at that time!!Maybe after if you loose your job you can!

TopBunk

21st Jan 2010, 17:15

Well the City seems fairly comfortable with the present situation. BA shares leading the FTSE-100 today up 3.6%.

Two-Tone-Blue

21st Jan 2010, 17:25

Well the City seems fairly comfortable with the present situation. BA shares leading the FTSE-100 today up 3.6%.

It's a good indicator.

Although I do have some reservations ... who failed to predict, or created, the crash? :)

dubh12000

21st Jan 2010, 17:44

PCC - Precision Cast Components. They make the turbine blades in your engines.

Just for reference, I used to work years ago for Honda in Swindon. They had a Workers Council arrangement there. Maybe contact them for advice also.

Jean-Lill

21st Jan 2010, 18:38

If you do not belong to a union and have a disciplinary then you are on your own.

As far as accidents at work are concerned, there are a multitude of companies advertising to fight such cases on a no win no fee basis.

Check your home insurance, you may find you can get free legal representation from them.

Obviously it is better to be in a union as none of us know what might happen but it is difficult if you do not have much faith in the union.

Hipennine

21st Jan 2010, 19:11

Without commenting on the various "opinions" on the rights and statutory procedures for representation, I would suggest that anyone with any queries first of all reads the ACAS booklet on disciplinary and grievance procedures, available for download at :

http://www.acas.org.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=272&p=0

Note the right to "accompany" by either a TU official or workplace companion, and the rights to paid leave for a workplace colleague to research and prepare. There is no requirement for a nominated TU official to come from a "recognised" union.
Presumably, if the PCCC wished to take on this sort of role, and they weren't a trade union, they could still provide workplace colleagues as part of their membership services.

Although ACAS Code of Practice advice has no statutory effect, in reality Employment Tribunals use them as their "bibles" and woebetide any employer that develops any alternative procedures that weaken the individual's position. The majority of successful unfair dismissal claims are because an employer fails to follow procedures from the ACAS guidelines.

The ACAS website also contains a vast amount of information about the application of legislative rules in the UK workplace. ACAS regional offices will always provide free impartial procedural advice to any employee subject to disciplinary process.

The one good thing of being represented by a "Full time" union official (not a rep), is that they may spend a great deal of their time doing just that, and are therefore tend to be much more procedurally aware than atypical employer middle manager.

Dairyground

21st Jan 2010, 19:17

If you do not belong to a union and have a disciplinary then you are on your own.

I don't think this is quite correct. I recall from a past employment that you could be accompanied to a disciplinary or any other confrontation with management by another employee or by a recognised representative of your trade union. the "accompanying employee" need not be a lay member of the union to which you belonged, but could be anyone on the books.

On a different theme, as fairly frequent SLF, I have noticed that BA will credit EC members with the tier points for any flight they are booked on that is cancelled because of the strike (assuming that it is going to happen), as well as giving a full refund. That effectively removes the risk of booking, and even goes a little bit further.

I seem to recall that around the time of the first ballot there were suggestions that it had multiple legal problems, not just the one BA took to court. If this is true and the other faults are still there, will BA go to court again, or will they call BASSA's bluff and let them have their strike?

Two-Tone-Blue

21st Jan 2010, 19:29

@ Dairyground ... I have noticed that BA will credit EC members with the tier points for any flight they are booked on that is cancelled because of the strike (assuming that it is going to happen), as well as giving a full refund.

I found that one today. Interesting, as ISTR that VS were offering the same on their website today [sorry, being tempted to disloyalty, because I have to!! ;) ]

Openclimb

21st Jan 2010, 19:35

No court injunction this time. BA will let BASSA go ahead and strike but meet them head on. Volunteers are being trained to act as cabin crew in the event of a strike in there thousands and come the day of the strike the first strikers will be sacked as an example to others.

Then the rest will realise that this isnt la la land but hard nosed business and will be back at work by lunchtime.

BASSA meantime will loose all respect and members will resign in their thousands.

Buy BA shares now!

Travelling Public

21st Jan 2010, 19:45

As I seem to be the only surviving customer on this thread ...

Not quite the only surviving passenger...the Travelling Public is still reading away with much interest:)

Two-Tone-Blue

21st Jan 2010, 19:56

TP - are you booked? Or affected in the near future?

fincastle84

21st Jan 2010, 19:57

Oh yes, we're still here, watching as the moderate, hard working loyal BA employees regain control of the company from the militant grasp of Bassa & its cohorts.

windscreen

21st Jan 2010, 20:07

If B.A. want "other" Cabin Crew to "help out" during this (potential) "disruption" why don't they email the easyJet Gals and Guys, they would be up for it in a flash, and boy are they well trained, makes you realise how pathetic braincrank was ( is) Tennis in Singapore, suit you sir, beats the crew room at LGW and working max. hours/sectors all the time, oh and it might give eJ food for thought.
Don't mean it really, and then there's errrrrrrr well lots of other crew maybe at well somewhere in Essex :E:E:E

iwalkedaway

21st Jan 2010, 20:23

First BA longhaul of this year scheduled for March - greatly looking forward to willing, cheery service from well-qualified cabin crew - captains, engineers, FOs, SFOs...you know, the kind of people whose training demands years of disciplined application. If nothing else, the repartee should be improved.

iwalkedaway (and - most of the time - never regretted it)

Medley

21st Jan 2010, 20:45

Interesting reading at another forum.

People are being asked if they would strike indefinitely. Everyone, except two or three with the argument that they could not afford it, are saying that they would and worry about money later.

Out of many replies there is a particulary shocking one:

"Hey, does Dolly Parton sleep on her back??!!! You bet Ron Jeremy's fat hairy a**e I would stay out, the longer the better!!!!"

I hope all of them get sacked.

:ugh:

Runway vacated

21st Jan 2010, 23:34

would stay out, the longer the better!!!!

This is a CLASSIC example of what got them into this mess in the first place - thinking with their hearts instead of their heads. They may HATE WW and the imposition that has been foisted upon them, but are unable to differentiate between "personal feelings" and "personal interests".

The difference between them will shortly become clear when they have no pay and no job.

Strimmerdriver

22nd Jan 2010, 00:37

Pure speculation but...

BA win court case and pursue unite for costs of proposed IA

Unite confronted with BA legal action & numerous bassa procedural errors act as before and sell out bassa including the BA demand for a no strike clause.

Bassa walk away blaming unite for pulling the rug from beneath them. Again.

BA continue to train volunteers but now with the strike threat removed can recruit “new” crew from outside BA.

BA SOSR the crew with 90 days change of contract knowing bassa unable to call for the third strike and keeping their promise to the rest of BA that the costs of any IA will be recovered from the group involved.

So before this happens how can it be prevented? Sounds like a very high price for the CSD serving the passengers.

etrang

22nd Jan 2010, 04:26

Its clear that BASSA and Unite have been out maneuvered, that any strike will quickly fold and the new contract will be implemented. However, i wonder if Willy will be content to stop there. My feeling is that he will not and would be interested in any ideas as to what his next move might be.

Ancient Observer

22nd Jan 2010, 05:51

Whoever is advising him on the Employee Relations/HR side is not one of the best in this field, so it makes prediction more difficult. Quite clearly in their business situation, they cannot just "win" this episode, they need real, deep, complete change.
That means removing the poison that is BASSA and any BASSA reps as completely as possible/legal.
Normally to do that the top team would aim to claim the "moral high ground" with customers, staff and shareholders. Bassa have played in to their hands with the first strike call, and will also get the second strike call wrong.
What BA then need is for the other staff groups to be onside. If McCarthy has not yet been out for lots of food and wine with the BALPA shower, and the ex-Engineers in Unite, he should do so in short order.

Unite will be influenced to distance themsleves from Bassa, and then it will be a field day on the Bassa mafia. There will continue to be cross-over in to this dispute from the Unite elections. This will be a pain.

As I accurately predicted the outcome of the first strike call, (the legal issue) some months ago, I predict the above with some confidence. However, as Carnage and I have noted, BA have been moving more slowly than our crystal balls tell us.

Nutjob

22nd Jan 2010, 06:47

Latest from BASSA (in an email)

It's a funny old world...

It wasn't so long ago that our pilot colleagues wanted our help.

They were organizing a ballot for strike action over their fears regarding
the introduction of "open skies" and the impact it could have on their
future prospects and earnings.

Our pilot colleagues were, quite rightly, concerned and felt very
confident of their moral high ground and balked at the audacity of British
Airways for daring to seek to undermine them by employing cheap labour
pilots, on inferior terms and conditions.

BA attempted to end their legitimate ballot by legal action, and their
threats prevailed.

Sound familiar?

How surprising then, as we face a battle for our own survival, that BALPA
has tacitly set up a facility on its website forum, for its own members to
actively volunteer to work as cabin crew to break our strike.

How thoughtful of them to repay our support. They can rest assured that
when their time comes, and it will, that we will be equally supportive.

Apologies to those pilot colleagues - and we know there are many - who
have a conscience and would never dream of doing such an underhand act,
but to those that choose to do so and those that requested it....

Have a good long hard look at yourself and remember how much our two
communities will suffer. Our Unions may not have always seen eye to eye
but at the end of the sector when push comes to shove (and doors go into
manual) crew will always "protect" pilots ...............

My bold.

Checked with people in the know and was allowed to look myself.

THERE IS CATEGORICALLY NO SUCH LINK ON THE BALPA FORUM AND THE REPS THERE HAVE BEEN VERY CLEAR THAT THEY WILL NOT AND CAN NOT ENCOURAGE FLIGHT CREW TO VOLUNTEER.

So CRM and safety is further eroded for what? A downright lie and a cheap shot at another Union. No wonder so many of us will have nothing to do with BASSA. If people ARE volunteering (they are, in droves ;)) it's because BASSA and it's deluded members leave them a stark choice. Let BASSA destroy BA or make sure BASSA are defeated. With partners, kids, mortgages, food bills and jobs that they appreciate, is it any surprise that they've stepped up to the plate?

It seems everyone is against BASSA - CC89, non-union members, "plastic" CSD's, pilots, BALPA, UNITE, WW, all other departments within BA, The Judiciary, the travelling public.....

.....wait, that might actually be true. :hmm:

Lurker, PiB etc - despite the misgivings of the CAA that are reported on the BASSA Forum, the truth is that the CAA HAVE approved the training of other employees in the CC roles. They will be closely observing next week (as they should be) but rest assured, unless there is an unequivocal official announcement from the CAA that they are blocking BA, then those employees have passed SEP and are qualified. I look forward to working alongside such motivated crew. Will make a pleasant change from some of our number.

wobble2plank

22nd Jan 2010, 07:38

How thoughtful of them to repay our support. They can rest assured that
when their time comes, and it will, that we will be equally supportive.

Hmmm, sorry it might be my poor memory but I don't ever, never, not once, seem to remember any 'support' for the BALPA Openskies dispute.

Openskies was based on the legal interpretation of 'Scope' not the assumption of the contractual viability of agreements. BASSA have never supported BALPA, more they have always sponged of the innate ability of BALPA to organise and negotiate. For example in the process of Pensions negotiations.

So, sorry if it doesn't phase the majority of pilots that BASSA have withdrawn their 'support'.

For the vast majority of professional Cabin Crew who operate our aircraft CRM will not be affected in the slightest as they have the ability to differentiate between on ground rhetoric and airborne required professionalism. If the BASSA tub thumpers have a problem with it then they will be off loaded.

It would seem that the rest of BA are behind the company as well:

There has been a fantastic first response from right across the airline
with every department volunteering to back BA since the intranet site was
launched on Monday.

Colleagues have once again proved they care about the airline’s customers.
It’s clear from the response that colleagues do not want to sit back and
watch Unite ruin this great airline.

BASSA have totally alienated themselves in this dispute and, with many employees looking at the fate of JAL and the financial position of other airlines closer to home, will NOT allow BASSA to 'bring the company down'.

I wonder how long the 'back BA become a temporary pilot' training course would be?

Desertia

22nd Jan 2010, 08:11

A downright lie and a cheap shot at another Union.

Do you expect anything else from this sorry lot? Telling lies is second nature to them.

Another beauty from the self-promoting Len McCluskey: "Trying to grind skilled and professional employees and their organisation into the dirt is a short hop to catastrophe for BA."

He's absolutely right. Fortunately the ones BA are trying to grind into the dirt, along with their "organisation" (and I use the term loosely), I would not describe as either skilled or professional.

wobble2plank

22nd Jan 2010, 08:24

He's absolutely right. Fortunately the ones BA are trying to grind into the dirt, along with their "organisation" (and I use the term loosely), I would not describe as either skilled or professional.

Desertia, whilst I agree with your sentiments I feel you shouldn't apply such a broad brush!

There are many, many very good, professional and loyal Cabin Crew who are, unfortunately, being led to destruction by a handful of idiots!

Qansett

22nd Jan 2010, 08:50

I guess BA pilots aren't happy with what cabin crew want. I still don't understand why they want to increase their salary. They earn more than other airlines and virgin atlantic.

Similar to Virgin Blue, they also want to increase their salary - same as Qantas' salary.

Desertia

22nd Jan 2010, 08:50

There are many, many very good, professional and loyal Cabin Crew who are, unfortunately, being led to destruction by a handful of idiot!

I am well aware of that Wobble2Plank. And those aren't the ones BA are targeting. And they're the ones I hope reject BASSA, stop paying them money that they only waste, and make their wishes known to the new council.

Let me state now for the record that if BASSA decide to go on strike, I will purchase a BAH-LHR-BAH scheduled for the period of the strike simply to show my support to the airline and to the many decent cabin crew to whom you refer.

And if you need a hand on the trolley, I'd be happy to help out :)

Cheers.
D

Hotel Mode

22nd Jan 2010, 09:59

I see BASSAs latest has generated a demand thats its rescinded by 1200 or else letter from BALPA. Another day in court for Unites amazing legal team then.

keel beam

22nd Jan 2010, 10:08

For those of you that are looking forward to working with or flying with volunteers from Engineering, Check In, Dispatch, and loading you may be disappointed.

The training requirements to bring these groups up to the required standard is 20 days. Quite a long period for what may be a possible short strike.

Former Cabin Crew and pilots need only a couple of days, so I would think they would be the priority.

Back to my spanners :{

moo

22nd Jan 2010, 10:46

Statement from Jim McAuslan, General Secretary BALPA:

Last summer, and following a thorough review of the company’s finances, BALPA members recognised that major changes needed to be made to the company’s cost base. Other staff groups, including engineers, shared that view.

As a result pilots voted to contribute £26 million of annual savings to help the company survive and thrive and in return will have some equity in the company.

BALPA and the vast majority of its members have a very different analysis of the situation in BA to representatives of the cabin crew union. We recognise the frustration that must have prompted so many cabin crew members to vote for strike action last year, but BALPA members were stunned by the threat of a 12 day strike at Christmas.

BALPA is not in dispute with BA and if and when a strike is called by the cabin crew union we will issue guidance to our members to ensure they comply with the law and operate normally to fulfil their full range of duties.

We understand a number of pilots have responded to BA’s call for volunteers to keep the airline operating through any strike and from their postings it is clear that this is out of concern for their own futures and that of other employees. For the avoidance of doubt, BALPA’s position on this is neutral and we will not dictate to our members. Nevertheless the suggestion that BALPA has “tacitly set up a facility on its website forum, for its own members to actively volunteer to work as cabin crew to break our strike” is entirely false and I have written to Unite explaining this.

We will continue to highlight to both our own members, and to the leadership of other unions that, once any strike is settled, it will be important for good and safe operations for fellow employees whether they operate on the flight-deck or in the cabin, to work together.
BALPA still hopes that both sides can reach a negotiated settlement and if
there is any role we can play to help with this then we only need to be asked.

Plan 10

22nd Jan 2010, 10:57

And further repudiation of the outright lies from BASSA:

Lizanne,

This has become a regular complaint now. We have, in the past, tolerated snipes and snide remarks from your organisation but as the stakes are so high for you, and our employer, we must now play this completely by the book (and letter of the LAW).

YET AGAIN you have posted a completely false and potentially libelous statement about BALPA on your forum. I attach it below. We have never and will never put any link or other tacit support for Backing BA on our forum or elsewhere. In this dispute we remain neutral as an organisation, our Chairman Brendan O'Neal made that very clear the moment "Backing BA" was launched. Our members are at liberty to volunteer for the scheme if they so wish. We give no guidance or assistance if they choose to do this. This is in line with any other voluntary scheme BA have ever run. BALPA does not dictate actions to our members.

To correct another obvious error, we never asked for your "support" during the OpenSkies dispute with BA. I made several phone calls to Sean Beatty to brief him but never made an approach for assistance. BALPA as a whole did seek a Unite endorsement for our campaign at the TUC but that was downstream of our dispute. A handful of your members supported us on our march on 15th March but that numbered no more than half a dozen. There were of course many spouses and partners of our members that may well have also been members of your union- we did not log marchers' affiliation. It is however incorrect to say BALPA asked for support or indeed that any was given by BASSA either overtly or otherwise.

I ask you to consider the effect your communications may have on relations between our two communities. Our respective members work together in a very proximate and safety critical environment. Creating a divide and spreading false and inflammatory comments about our community and/or union will not help either side maintain a safe, dignified and professional atmosphere in the workplace. We must both do our utmost to preserve relations between our respective workgroups.

The above will be followed up by a letter from John Moore to Steve Turner. Once again, we request you remove or edit the offending article at the earliest opportunity and in any event by midday today (22nd Jan). We reserve our right to litigate if you fail to comply.

The above is all subject to disclosure due to your ongoing legal action with BA. I will also post it on our forum for our members for their information. You are free to do likewise.

xxxxxx xxxxxxx
British Airways Company Council
BALPA

Crash_and_Burn

22nd Jan 2010, 11:17

A very measured and reasonable response from BALPA.

I wonder if BASSA react in the same manner... Answers on a post card.

CB

Two-Tone-Blue

22nd Jan 2010, 11:41

It's now 12:41 on 22 Jan - have BASSA complied? ;)

Crash_and_Burn

22nd Jan 2010, 11:50

It's only just after 4am in LAX - Give poor Lizanne a chance to wake up and have a cup of coffee, put on her face etc...

I'm sure she'll react in the next two or three weeks, when she get's round to it.:E

CB

moo

22nd Jan 2010, 12:24

"It’s a funny old world...

It wasn’t so long ago that our pilot colleagues wanted our help.
They were organizing a ballot for strike action over their fears regarding the introduction of “open skies” and the impact it could have on their future prospects and earnings.
Our pilot colleagues were, quite rightly, concerned and felt very confident of their moral high ground and balked at the audacity of British Airways for daring to seek to undermine them by employing cheap labour pilots, on inferior terms and conditions.
BA attempted to end their legitimate ballot by legal action, and their threats prevailed.
Sound familiar?
How surprising then, as we face a battle for our own survival, that BALPA has chosen to remain "neutral" when their own members are actively volunteering to work as cabin crew to break our strike. And they call themselves a Union?
How thoughtful of them to repay our support. They can rest assured that when their time comes, and it will, that we will be equally supportive.
Apologies to those pilot colleagues - and we know there are many - who have a conscience and would never dream of doing such an underhand act, but to those that choose to do so and those that requested it....
Have a good long hard look at yourself and remember how much our two communities will suffer. Our Unions may not have always seen eye to eye but at the end of the sector when push comes to shove (and doors go into manual) crew will always “protect” pilots ...............
To BALPA and those selfish members who are volunteering to "strike break" and therefore harm people who are a lot worse off than them, we have a two word message, they might well remember the next time they wish to socialise with cabin crew down route"
"FOXTROT OSCAR"

moo

22nd Jan 2010, 12:26

Lizanne,

Your edited message is still unacceptable to us. This has now been taken out of your hands and will be dealt with by us.

To avoid future embarrassment, I suggest you get yourself a new notice writer.

Kind regards

**********

BACC

Runway vacated

22nd Jan 2010, 12:32

BASSA are obviously pursuing a "scorched earth" policy. They realise they are on the way to a very heavy, probably terminal defeat.

They wish their legacy to be a generation of dysfunctional crew whose attitudes have been irredeemably poisoned. This seems a fitting epitaph for such a dysfunctional organisation.

I am pretty confident we will be able to rise above it, and in a few years time will be able to say

"Do you remember BASSA?"

"Nope, nor do I."

7Heroes

22nd Jan 2010, 12:50

``Have a good long hard look at yourself and remember how much our two communities will suffer. Our Unions may not have always seen eye to eye but at the end of the sector when push comes to shove (and doors go into manual) crew will always “protect” pilots ...............``

What does this infer `crew will always `protect` pilots.?
And as for the last sentence - Bassa you are plumbing new lows.That is a disgusting statement.You are now encouraging the breakdown of any sort of CRM and that will become a flight safety issue with all sorts of implications.Shame on you.

617sqn

22nd Jan 2010, 12:55

It's always good to have a balanced debate.With that in mind where are the Bassa supporters Miss M,Fume Event etc?
I always like to hear the other side.Makes life more interesting.

fly12345

22nd Jan 2010, 12:56

7Heroes, the way you spin everything to your advantage you should be a washing machine.
Shame on you.:uhoh:

Dawdler

22nd Jan 2010, 13:04

Can there really be any doubt about how incredible BASSA are after their attack on BALPA? This is only the latest in exhibitions of petulance and their attraction to fabrication. I fear that now that they will lose more than just their credibility.:suspect:

flybymerchant

22nd Jan 2010, 13:13

Crash_and_Burn It's only just after 4am in LAX - Give poor Lizanne a chance to wake up and have a cup of coffee, put on her face etc...

I'm sure she'll react in the next two or three weeks, when she get's round to it.

CB

Something tells me she won't be sleeping particularly well at the moment! If she gets found guilty of Gross negligent and outrageously childish misconduct will she be jailed in the UK or America? Will it STILL be someone else's fault?!

flybymerchant

22nd Jan 2010, 13:16

They should do a charity benefitting auction to see who gets to be the one to hand deliver her notice of termination, just a thought...just going to move some money around...

Andy_S

22nd Jan 2010, 13:26

To BALPA and those selfish members who are volunteering to "strike break".......

Since BALPA are not balloting their members for strike action, how can there be a strike for them to break?

A Lurker

22nd Jan 2010, 13:26

You are now encouraging the breakdown of any sort of CRM and that will become a flight safety issue with all sorts of implications

And some of the comments on this thread from BA Pilots have been acceptable? X factor voters etc etc - Due to the postings and public nature of this forum - every post is viewable by all and has often been reported back to Cabin Crew forums - CRM has already damaged long before the post by BASSA

Plan 10

22nd Jan 2010, 13:35

Quote:You are now encouraging the breakdown of any sort of CRM and that will become a flight safety issue with all sorts of implications

And some of the comments on this thread from BA Pilots have been acceptable? X factor voters etc etc - Due to the postings and public nature of this forum - every post is viewable by all and has often been reported back to Cabin Crew forums - CRM has already damaged long before the post by BASSA
Lurker, those comments you allude to came from private individuals, neither on behalf of nor endorsed by BALPA. The above disgraceful notices came from BASSA themselves as official communication.

See the difference? You happy with that level of communication from BASSA, a union claiming to represent "professionals?"

617sqn

22nd Jan 2010, 13:46

A Lurker
A lot of comments on here have been unacceptable.You are quite right, and they have come from all types of people who post on here.I don't think any group is blameless.
The really outragous one have been deleted by the Mods.
I will agree with you for the time being.

Now let's get back to sorting this out.

henkybaby

22nd Jan 2010, 13:49

ALurker, even you must admit that individual comments have been made on both sides that are 'wrong'. Lets call that a draw.

I was trying to be objective but honestly it looks like BASSA has now completely lost it. It really looks like they are in what is sometimes called a frenzy. Logic no longer dictates their actions, but emotions do. That is never the right way to act in a conflict.

BASSA has dug so many legal holes for themselves with their official public statements. It really is hard to believe. I have never seen anything like this ever, anywhere. I cannot even try to explain it.

binsleepen

22nd Jan 2010, 13:57

You couldn't write this script, its mad.

At the end of Gulf War II, Comical Ali, The Iraqi Information Minister went missing without a trace. He was known for his sound grasp of the facts and realities of life. One of his more famous quotes was:

"I triple guarantee you, there are no American soldiers in Baghdad." This was said as US armour drove past his ministry.

It now appears that he has turned up in BASSA HQ leading their truth and reconcilliation committee. I am shortly expecting a press release from him saying:

"Lying is forbidden in BASSA. BASSA reps will tolerate nothing but truthfulness as they are people of great honor and integrity. Everyone is encouraged to speak freely of the truths evidenced in their eyes and hearts.":D (my bold replacing 'Iraq', 'the president' and 'he is a man'.

Is there any individual, group or organisation even remotely involved in this dispute that BASSA hasn't tried to blame, smear or be rude about?

All the best to the sane.

Andy_S

22nd Jan 2010, 14:03

It makes you wonder about the governence of BASSA. Does Lizanne really have the authority to simply issue these missives without reference to anyone else? Is there no requirement to at least get a qualified legal opinion on anything they put into the public domain? Are there any checks and balances or is she a law unto herself?

davecr

22nd Jan 2010, 14:04

As a pilot I feel like BASSA has left me no choice but to volunteer for this position. IF a 12 day strike was to happen, I would lose my job as the company would fold. I can't sit back and let that happen.

If this dispute would have happened at another time, or if BASSA would have been truly interested in negotiating a painful but neccesary solution, I'd have to think about it a lot longer.

It saddens me to see that BASSA is vilifying flight crew once again, while ALL departments have volunteers coming in to help out during the potential strike? BALPA is being completely impartial about this whole affair. Sadly there will be many BASSA members who will not believe us when we tell them that.. :* While the BASSA line is for our colleagues to tell us to "FOXTROT OSCAR" (quote from BASSA publication Mod! ;) ) downroute, our union is leaving this decision up to us.

Secondly, could I also kindly remind BASSA that the OpenSkies issue affected us as much as it did them - the only difference is that BALPA decided to act upon it while BASSA chose not to. I'm not pointing fingers or blaming BASSA for not having done so, simply pointing it out.

Cabin Crew: Honestly, if you were being told you would lose 2-3 weeks of allowances because BALPA called a strike, but you could keep your allowances if you volunteered to do some ground work over that time to help operations out - what would you do? Add to this the fact that, if you decided to sit at home, there would be a real possibility that there wouldn't be a job to come back to.

Thoughts?

Medley

22nd Jan 2010, 14:07

ESS from BA! Permanent loss of staff travel to those going on a strike.

henkybaby

22nd Jan 2010, 14:10

Thoughts?

After the latest series of communications issued by BASSA I don't think you can expect a rational response anymore. I really think some people had a nervous breakdown there. Not surprising given the stress of the last couple of weeks but very dangerous for all those people relying on sane leadership.

arem

22nd Jan 2010, 14:11

After Lala's comments I am reminded of the useful phrase "Your presence on this aircraft is not conducive to a safe and efficient operation" - the door is there!

Could be applicable to both an operating or passengering situation.

moo

22nd Jan 2010, 14:12

Unite cabin crew ballot: BA statement

BA said today that it remains absolutely determined to protect its customers’ travel plans as much as it possibly can should Unite’s threatened strike go ahead.

As a responsible employer and in view of Unite’s apparent wish for a lengthy strike, BA has written to cabin crew individually to set out the consequences of different ballot outcomes.

The letter says that if there is a vote to reject strike action, the company will continue to offer assurances that would allow cabin crew to keep:
their current individual terms and conditions
their current pay, with increment rises for most crew of between two per cent and seven per cent this financial year and next
their average variable pay (allowances) through the offer of a monthly standard payment
their options for voluntary lifestyle changes, either through changing fleets at Heathrow or transferring to part time
a commitment from the company to keep talking with Unite about how it recruits new crew .
full union representation with an offer from the company for Unite to represent future crew.

The letter adds that if a strike occurs, crew taking part would lose:
pay and associated days off for duties missed because of strike action
entitlement to staff travel benefits.

In the event of a strike and the financial loss it would cause, the airline would also have to conduct a further review of cabin crew costs and would not be able to maintain assurances over current cabin crew terms and conditions.

Bill Francis, head of cabin crew, said: “We know how much our customers do not want to see a strike at British Airways. Their patience is running out.

“I am proud of the professionalism and skills of British Airways cabin crew. But Unite is seeking to inflict huge damage on our business once again, so it is time to be absolutely clear with crew about what will happen if a strike takes place. Going on strike is a very serious matter, and I hope all Unite members will think very carefully before casting their vote.

“We owe it to our customers and all our colleagues to do everything we can to reduce the impact of any disruption that might occur.”

Unite’s ballot starts on Monday, January 25.

There will be a full version of the letter to crew available on the IFCE intranet site from Monday.

END

Diplome

22nd Jan 2010, 14:13

A quick question please.

When these sort of official messages are placed by BASSA Leaders on the BASSA website do any of the members ever state.."Stop this please, it is not helping, its hurting us."?

Perhaps if BASSA members started demanding more professionalism and a little less thug-like behavior from their leadership unfortunate events such as the notice this morning would occur less often.

davecr

22nd Jan 2010, 14:15

If you saw the abuse people get on that forum for even suggesting BASSA isn't handling something in the best possible way, you would understand.. :(

Tiramisu

22nd Jan 2010, 14:22

ESS from BA! Permanent loss of staff travel to those going on a strike.

Plus the rest though we're not allowed to copy it here without Bill F's permission.
Incidentally most of the crew who I flew with this week are going to Vote NO and resign from BASSA. Four CSDS who I met whilst in CRC who previously were prepared to strike were also resigning, said they'd had enough and were coming to work.

I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above represent my personal views and not those of BA.

davecr

22nd Jan 2010, 14:24

Very interesting to hear, seems like things are changing in the higher ranks as well then..

Who knows, maybe I won't even have to get my skirt size meisured after all :ok:

Clarified

22nd Jan 2010, 14:36

It's good to know people are starting to wake up and smell the coffee!!
It's also good to know that there are serious consequences for continuing to damage our business, reputation and community.
I started to draft a post and then read your caution re. posting any details. The people that need to know will have read it, the ball is firmly in their court.
Lets hope sense prevails and we can get on with being an airline instead of the main attraction in a media circus.

My own thoughts as usual, not my employers or any one elses.

lekkerste

22nd Jan 2010, 14:38

Clarified, does the e-mail use the word 'permanent' regarding loss of staff travel? The ESS home-page synopsis doesn't.

Thanks.

Clarified

22nd Jan 2010, 14:40

Absolutely no comment.

7Heroes

22nd Jan 2010, 14:59

And all you folks had to do is work one down.Its now in `black and white` on ESS.You go on strike and New Fleet will evolve.The thing you are striking about is what you are going to cause to happen because you go on strike!
And you are going to lose your staff travel for good!
Bassa has led you to the edge of the cliff and I think it is going to be almost impossible to step back from there.We shall have to wait and see.

Crash_and_Burn

22nd Jan 2010, 15:03

The gloves have come off!!! This is starting to get interesting.

Well interesting for an outsider.. If I was a Crew member I'd be starting to worry, big style. Even if you are against a strike and Vote NO, your colleagues could still totally screw-up your livelihood. Very Scary!

The frenzy on CF must be reaching fever point.. Kind of like throwing raw meat to the lions, I imagine, or a red rag to a bull.(a particularly stupid bull in this case):E

CB

Desertia

22nd Jan 2010, 15:04

every post is viewable by all and has often been reported back to Cabin Crew forums

Including the ones where we've pointed out BASSA's lies?

Forgive me if I don't believe you.

Da Dog

22nd Jan 2010, 15:07

One of our more left leaning newspapers may be doing an "anti pilot" expose tomorrow.

Lets hope they can get the spelling right:ok:

Carnage Matey!

22nd Jan 2010, 15:07

You better believe it! The witchfinder general is whizzing around every thread on Crew Forum telling people to stop worryig about people volunteering to work as crew because it isn't happening. No evidence to support the claim, just her fervent desire for it not to be true. I guess if she says it enough maybe it will become true.

Medley

22nd Jan 2010, 15:08

At CF they are saying that Bill is getting desperate and that staff travel will always come back because commuters won't get to work. One even said unions will insist on it as one of the conditions for their members to return to work.

22nd Jan 2010, 15:09

It doesn't say lose staff travel for good. As in the past you can;t use staff travel while you are on strike. Don't mislead.
There is enough of that already !!

Crash_and_Burn

22nd Jan 2010, 15:11

Carnage, I believe that is called the "head in the sand" manoeuvre. A BASSA speciality.

Why let the truth spoil a good lie?

CB:ugh:

Carnage Matey!

22nd Jan 2010, 15:12

No. It says lose staff travel permanently. But thats the same as for good.

fly12345

22nd Jan 2010, 15:13

The scary fact is that it would be irresponsible to threaten the closure of BA as we know it as a consequence of a strike or even a prolonged threat of one on an official company message but sadly the prospect of such an eventuality remains very possible.

Glamgirl

22nd Jan 2010, 15:14

77,

I read the point about staff travel in the same way as Carnage. It doesn't say "during strike/industrial action". It uses that "P" word.

Gg

I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.

Da Dog

22nd Jan 2010, 15:17

t CF they are saying that Bill is getting desperate and that staff travel will always come back because commuters won't get to work. One even said unions will insist on it as one of the conditions for their members to return to work.

No no no they meant to say "because commuters won't have any work";)

Runway vacated

22nd Jan 2010, 15:20

Next they will wheel out the "car park isn't big enough, so they will HAVE to give commuters back their ST" excuse.

They really don't get it. Armageddon is here.

22nd Jan 2010, 15:21

>>The letter adds that if a strike occurs, crew taking part would lose:
pay and associated days off for duties missed because of strike action
entitlement to staff travel benefits.

You may be right I only read the above. And assumed staff travel is withdrawn whilst on strike just as it is during sickness. Maybe the official letter says permenantly..

Tiramisu

22nd Jan 2010, 15:21

The frenzy on CF must be reaching fever point.. Kind of like throwing raw meat to the lions, I imagine, or a red rag to a bull.(a particularly stupid bull in this case)

Crash and Burn,
The trouble with bulls is is that they are stubborn and the email would have little or no effect on them. Those that are genuinely concerned won't voice their opinions for fear of being shot down in flames as usual.
It's sad that these BASSA supporters are going to change our working lives for the worse.

I started to draft a post and then read your caution re. posting any details

Hello Clarified,
Just need to read what it says at the bottom of every email that we're sent. In the past, I have always asked for permission before posting anything.

Davecr,
All we can do is try and make our colleagues understand and make their own informed decisions, that's really important. I guess that's the difference between us and the die-hard BASSA supporters.

Trousers are allowed as part of the cabin crew uniform though personally I prefer skirts.:)

JazzyKex

22nd Jan 2010, 15:23

The copy of the letter from IFCE I have seen clearly states the staff travel will be lost permanently.

Just out of interest does anyone know how many of the crew use staff travel to commute?

Anecdotally it seems like 25%, but that really is a guess. It could be quite an influential number.

FlexSRS

22nd Jan 2010, 15:25

If you strike, we will recover the money by making you stay in the Travelodge or some other motel on the edge of nowhere

I paraphrase of course, until someone pastes the whole email from ESS (which is a lot more than on the intranet, and yes, staff travel does go forever, and seeing as BA wants to reduce headcount, would they care if commuters decided to leave BA? They aren't entitled to staff travel. They can still get hotlines. If loads of them leave, BA will be happy, New Fleet recruitment can start even sooner - think about it! Also, who will be paying quite a bit more for all that LHR-LAX-LHR'ing she does....)

It won't matter if LaLa tells her minions to be nasty to pilots, we won't even be in the same hotel any more, probably not even on the same bus! (Crew issued with BA Micro Scooter to get to airport Ibis...)

fly12345

22nd Jan 2010, 15:27

Lose staff travel permanently
Lose pay for any duties you miss if you go on strike, including associated days off .

Clarified

22nd Jan 2010, 15:34

Thank you and noted.

Weather Map

22nd Jan 2010, 15:39

BASSA are finished even if they do or don't strike .If the vote comes back as a no (which i doubt it will) BA will pick and pick away at terms and conditions regardless of the assurances they have given.Look at the current climate and the LGW crew are working to these agreements .This is what BA have been waiting for, sadly BASSA have handed it to them on a plate.If only they had put up and shut up they could have avoided this big mess.I'm sick of the whole thing.

Medley

22nd Jan 2010, 15:41

How many crew attended BASSA's last meeting? I heard of figures less than 500?

davecr

22nd Jan 2010, 15:47

Ladies & Gents,

Other forums full of comments like "they threatened taking away staff travel with the '95 strike but had to give it back straight away", stating legal reasons (can't descriminate against someone who participates in IA). Does anyone remember what happened in this instance?

Davecr

Weather Map

22nd Jan 2010, 15:47

What was the outcome regarding the reps who were accused of bullying the CC 89 rep.?

Human Factor

22nd Jan 2010, 15:49

From the email:

In those circumstances, you would:

Lose staff travel permanently
Lose pay for any duties you miss if you go on strike, including associated days off

We would also need to review all costs in IFCE, including hotels. And of course I would be unable to maintain the assurances for your terms and conditions.

History tells us that absence rises significantly during industrial action. We will assume that anyone who does not report for duty during a strike is taking part in that industrial action.

Anyone out there still with any doubts?

Edit: Crossed posts with moo, who has posted the entire mail, so hopefully that's the last of the doubters convinced.

Medley

22nd Jan 2010, 15:50

Dave, you probably mean the strike in '97. Staff travel is non-contractual and a benefit to your employment. It can be taken away at any time without any given reason.

moo

22nd Jan 2010, 15:52

Dear Colleague

I am sorry to be writing to you again, but it is very important that you read this letter. It contains information that will affect you personally.

If you are a member of Unite, you are again being asked a question that will have serious repercussions for you, our customers and our company: whether you will support a strike or support our customers.

There has been talk of potential strikes for many months now. We cannot go on like this. In December we saw what our customers and the wider public thought about a strike. Their patience is running out. It is time to be absolutely clear about what will happen if a strike takes place.

I know many of you were shocked by the prolonged nature of the strike that Unite planned at Christmas, and the distress this caused for the customers you serve. It damaged our reputation and cost our company millions of pounds in lost revenue at a time when we are already facing record annual losses.

Since early this month, we have been holding discussions with Unite. We had already planned the next phase of the talks – and then on Monday the union told us that it was calling another strike ballot. As you know, we suffer financially as soon as there are headlines about strikes, because our customers start booking with other airlines.

We have a great heritage, but we must strive for a great future. The aviation industry becomes more competitive every year and as the news from Japan showed this week, even the most famous global airlines will go bankrupt if they fail to adapt to what is happening around them.

I have listened to what matters to you

We must bring our cabin crew costs in line with those in other airlines to ensure a bright future for everyone in IFCE and for our many thousands of BA colleagues who have already made contributions to the company’s cost reduction drive.

Over the last year, many of you spoke to me about how you want to approach those savings. You wanted a voluntary approach to redundancies. You wanted to keep your pay and conditions. And you wanted assurances about the future.

Our package offers all of these and meets our cost target. To accommodate the requests from crew for part-time working and voluntary redundancy, we have slightly reduced crew numbers onboard. There will be a two-year freeze on base pay (but not increments), new contracts for future crew, and changes to the worldwide disruption agreement that would put our customers first without changing the existing disruption payments.

If you do not support a strike

If the majority of you choose to support our customers and reject a strike, I will continue to offer these assurances. They would allow you to:

Keep your current individual terms and conditions
Keep your current basic pay, with 2%-7% increment rises this financial year and next for 75% of you
Keep your average variable pay through the offer of a monthly payment
Keep flying an unrivalled network of routes and staying in quality hotels while you’re there
Keep lifestyle choices, either by changing fleets at Heathrow or transferring to part time
Keep a commitment from us to keep talking with Unite about how we recruit new crew
Keep full union representation with an offer from us for Unite to represent future crew.

If you support a strike

Some of you have said that you voted yes in December, not because you thought it would lead to a strike but because you thought it would lead to more talks or a better deal.

What became clear was that voting yes means you consent to going on strike. Full stop. No-one expects it to be different this time.

We can only assume that another yes vote would again lead to an extended strike or series of strikes. This could have a catastrophic effect on our business and our reputation. This is very serious. As a company, we owe it to our customers and all our colleagues to do everything in our power to prevent this outcome.

Therefore before you vote, I want you to be fully aware of the consequences should you vote yes and go on strike. In those circumstances, you would:

Lose staff travel permanently
Lose pay for any duties you miss if you go on strike, including associated days off

We would also need to review all costs in IFCE, including hotels. And of course I would be unable to maintain the assurances for your terms and conditions.

History tells us that absence rises significantly during industrial action. We will assume that anyone who does not report for duty during a strike is taking part in that industrial action.

I understand completely that coming to work during a strike can be daunting. We all know of past examples of intimidation. This will not be tolerated and, if there is a strike, we would put in place measures to protect you. That is something we would talk to you about in more detail nearer the time. For now, I wanted you to be clear before you vote that you need to make an active choice about what you want for your future.

Vote no and back BA

There has been a lot of debate about whether the changes to crew complements were part of your individual contracts. We don’t believe they are. But that is now a matter for the High Court, which is expected to make a decision before the ballot period is over.

Your vote is extremely important. Please think very hard about how you will use it. It is not a bargaining tool for the negotiating table. It is what will decide whether we have a disastrous strike or not.

I have been very frank with you about the consequences of your decision.

Vote no and you vote to support our customers. You vote for stability and retention of your current terms and conditions.

Vote yes and you vote to disown our customers. You vote for instability and a future none of us can be sure about.

This is a critical moment for us all. Alienating our customers, the people who pay our wages, cannot be the right way forward.

Vote no and back BA.

Thank you,

Bill Francis
Head of Inflight Customer Experience

davecr

22nd Jan 2010, 15:54

Sorry yes, '97.

I know its not contractual, however can BA "pick" on people who take IA? If they were to do this wouldnt they have to revoke staff travel for ALL cabin crew?

Human Factor

22nd Jan 2010, 15:54

davecr,

...can't discriminate against someone who participates in IA...

I would imagine you are correct that they cannot discriminate between someone who participates in IA and someone who doesn't. Interestingly, the email doesn't make that distinction. It says (I paraphrase) "if there is a "Yes" vote" not "those who go on strike".

So according to the letter I would suggest ST will be permanently removed from ALL cabin crew, whether they strike or not if there is a Yes vote.

High stakes.

617sqn

22nd Jan 2010, 15:54

Bassa will never get the message.They are bullies.
If anyone dares to question them or have the nerve to disagree they are turned upon.
If you had the audacity to post a tricky question on crew forum the vicious replies would be unbelievable.You could even get a ban.Remember that it's not even a Bassa forum but a crew forum.
It really is like living in a communist state where you don't question the leaders or else.
If Bassa had allowed people to voice their feelings and LISTEN to the people who pay their subs things could be different.
The only people to blame are themselves.Let's hope that everyone resigns from this pathetic apology of a union.
Sad really as so many crew from other airlines would love the chance to be represented by a union.An intelligent union that is.
Frankly I wouldn't trust Bassa to run a bath.

fly12345

22nd Jan 2010, 16:00

617sqn,
I agree with you 100% but sadly their propaganda machine is very successful and the brainless, suicidal following is even more worrying.

Medley

22nd Jan 2010, 16:00

Human Factor

22nd Jan 2010, 16:03

Hopefully when the dust settles in a few months, the new crew and those who remain will take a close interest in the fledgling PCCC, which I sincerely hope will not affiliate itself with Unite in any way, shape or form.

Glamgirl

22nd Jan 2010, 16:03

Just received this in an email from a friend of mine:

It's regarding whether the latest comms from management will convince crew to vote NO.

Trouble is, it's got to convince nearly half of the membership who voted last time to change their vote, and that's difficult to say the least. You know the worst bit? if cabin crew have a genuine grievance in future, you won't be able to go on strike, because BA will invoke exactly the same penalty. Your militant colleagues have destroyed the crew's power to look after their own interests.

Anyone else thinking along these lines?

Gg

I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.

Human Factor

22nd Jan 2010, 16:06

Lurker,

Wrong, yourself! :rolleyes:

You're not concentrating old chap. That was covered in an earlier paragraph. ;)

What became clear was that voting yes means you consent to going on strike. Full stop. No-one expects it to be different this time.

We can only assume that another yes vote would again lead to an extended strike or series of strikes.

So like I said, I would suggest ST will be permanently removed from ALL cabin crew, whether they strike or not if there is a Yes vote as BA will assume that you will strike following that Yes vote.

617sqn

22nd Jan 2010, 16:10

The wording of the letter suggests to me that were a majority to vote for a strike then all cc would lose out.

davecr

22nd Jan 2010, 16:11

I don't think either one of you can be sure as you don't know how "you" is being used in this context.

if YOU (plural, group) go on strike, could mean everyone in that group could lose staff travel. Even if YOU (singular) don't.

ie.. its all about how you interpret it?

henkybaby

22nd Jan 2010, 16:11

To all those still wanting to strike:

Clearly it is now gloves off. Are you still convinced you will win this battle? Enough to stake your livelihood on it?

Human Factor

22nd Jan 2010, 16:12

Oh for Pete's sake.:{

Therefore before you vote, I want you to be fully aware of the consequences should you vote yes and go on strike.

What became clear was that voting yes means you consent to going on strike. Full stop. No-one expects it to be different this time.

We can only assume that another yes vote would again lead to an extended strike or series of strikes.

Have you never heard of "reading between the lines"? That explains an awful lot.

Two-Tone-Blue

22nd Jan 2010, 16:13

I turned my back for a couple of hours and it's got worse/better. :ugh:

I simply cannot believe the obduracy of the BASSA militants, fighting ineptly their lost cause. Mr Walsh has laid it clearly on the the line what is going to happen. And all because BA want the CC at LHR to do the same as other crews at LGW?

Is this 2010? Have I entered a 1970's time-warp?

Fight hard, those of you with the brains to interpret reality. It seems evident that the BASSA leadership lives on a different planet. Happily there seem to be many who live in "today", and look to the future for themselves and BA.

davecr

22nd Jan 2010, 16:19

A Lurker - just because it affects you personally (the information inside that email) doesnt mean its all up to you.. In my opinion. We can argue over this forever I suppose, we will just have to wait and see.

I'm sure BASSA will present their interpretation shortly....

CaptainBarbosa

22nd Jan 2010, 16:22

Hello.
I've been lurking on this forum and now have decided its time to join the debate.
I have worked with many cabin crew over the years. For three and a half of those I was cabin crew myself. Almost all the crew that I have been fortunate enough to have worked with have been very professional, genuinely cared for the passengers and enjoyed the job. The opposite, in fact, of the militants who now seem to run or are most avid in their support of BASSA. Sadly I have now seen the profesionalism, the customer care and the enjoyment of the job eroded more and more in some of our crew members. However, these people are still in a minority.
The current terms and conditions for cabin crew are amongst the best in our industry. I believe that there has been safeguards put in place so that current crew do not see a huge erosion of those terms. I think this is wholly appropriate. A massive reduction in earnings would cause unnecessary pain to our crew, who have built their lives and aspirations on their current and ligitimate earnings. However future crew would know what the new set of remunerations would be before they signed their contracts and would be able to judge, before signing, if the job was for them.
I fear that the strength of the BASSA rhetoric, and the inability of the crew to question the BASSA reps without censure will lead to a strike and with it a tearing up of current terms and conditions. This in turn will lead to a loss of our most able and talented crew who realise that their various degrees that they have held will now open other doors that will allow them to keep the standard of living that they now have.
I would like to keep our current crew (even if, after the latest BASSA missive, they will no longer wish to socialise with the flight crew when on trips :( ) I believe that most still hold their professionalism dear and are still proud to work for this company. I think it would be very wrong for a strike to be called for the spurious reason of fighting an imposition which most crew seem to have found not much of a problem at all. The company was forced into this imposition because they were faced by reps who would not negotiate in any meaningful way. I think that if if a "No" vote was returned the company would do its utmost to protect the current earnings of crew. I think if a "Yes" vote is returned, all cabin crew contracts and terms and conditions would be in very serious jeopardy.
I really hope for a "No" vote.

Regards
CaptainBarbosa.

BAcrewboy

22nd Jan 2010, 16:23

Evening all

Well today was quite a big day for me! I officially went and told BASSA that I wished to end my membership effective immediately and that I did not want any deduction taken from my next pay-packet. I'm in it alone now guys.. so when the s**t hits the fan, I shall be turning to some of you here for advice and support. Now, having done that, I had better not use my S/T - I use it a lot and don't see why I should be punished!

Tiramisu

22nd Jan 2010, 16:27

What some crew seem to be forgetting is that the management is different from '97. WW will remove staff travel permanently and if crew don't report for duty when the strike is over because they can't get to work they will be liable for disciplinary actions (EGXXX).

Hey presto! Enter New Fleet and we're all on new contracts.
Thank you BASSA and all strikers, you'll s***w up our jobs forever!
Well done and congratulations!

Hopefully when the dust settles in a few months, the new crew and those who remain will take a close interest in the fledgling PCCC, which I sincerely hope will not affiliate itself with Unite in any way, shape or form.

Human Factor,
Thank you. Please be assured the PCCC will distance itself from UNITE. We have a completely different appproach and mindset.

I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above represent my personal views and not those of BA.

davecr

22nd Jan 2010, 16:29

BACrewboy - Well done, you should be proud of yourself for having the courage to distance yourself from something you don't believe in. Many of your colleagues have told me they feel the same, but will still be voting YES...... Defies all logic.

You will find more support outside of bassa than you think! :ok:

Tiramisu

22nd Jan 2010, 16:36

Well today was quite a big day for me! I officially went and told BASSA that I wished to end my membership effective immediately and that I did not want any deduction taken from my next pay-packet. I'm in it alone now guys.. so when the s**t hits the fan, I shall be turning to some of you here for advice and support. Now, having done that, I had better not use my S/T - I use it a lot and don't see why I should be punished

Well done BAcrewboy!
We're all here for you anytime at all. You are not alone.

Looking Up

22nd Jan 2010, 16:42

617sqn

22nd Jan 2010, 16:56

That is how I understood it too.
The pressure will be on for a no vote to keep Ts and Cs.

Staff travel may not sway people as you can get cheaper tickets from Easy Jet etc and it's a guaranteed seat.
Personally I haven't used staff travel in years.Never any spare seats when I want to go away.

Papillon

22nd Jan 2010, 16:59

Wrong - the letter says should you vote yes and go on strike
Since the company cannot know whether you as an individual have voted 'yes' or 'no' this clearly applies in the wider sense.

If, as a group, you vote to strike you each, individually, lose ST.

Hope that clears it up.

Not necessarily. It won't be hard for the company to see who comes into work and who doesn't. Those that don't will presumably be the ones who lose out. BA aren't going to penalise those who make the effort to come in.

Looking Up

22nd Jan 2010, 17:14

Wrong - the letter says should you vote yes and go on strikeSince the company cannot know whether you as an individual have voted 'yes' or 'no' this clearly applies in the wider sense

If, as a group, you vote to strike you each, individually, lose ST.

Hope that clears it upNot necessarily. It won't be hard for the company to see who comes into work and who doesn't. Those that don't will presumably be the ones who lose out. BA aren't going to penalise those who make the effort to come in.Absolutely.

sunnysmith

22nd Jan 2010, 17:14

For the sake of sanity.........

A Lurker,

As much as I am enjoying this 'debate' of the minor issue of ST for crew if they strike?!?!? :bored:, are you being equally pedantic with your reps?

IE are you pestering them for TRUE info and facts? Are you asking why the have decided to effetely tell all pilots to 'FOXTROT OSCAR?'

If you really are interested in accurate information what are you doing to ensure your reps adhere to you obviously high standards?

Frankly, if you all can do now is argue about the comparably ‘insignificant' and miss the bigger issues then I truly do despair!!!! :confused::\

SS

wiggy

22nd Jan 2010, 17:15

Staff travel may not sway people as you can get cheaper tickets from Easy Jet etc and it's a guaranteed seat.
Personally I haven't used staff travel in years. Never any spare seats when I want to go away.

True enough if you only use Staff Travel for holidays but it would be a significant loss for many who commute several times a month by air. The likes of Easyjet don't (yet :} ) serve LHR and the LoCo tickets can often be much more expensive than an ID90.

617sqn

22nd Jan 2010, 17:19

Not clear cut as we are in disagreement.
It does start off by saying if the majority do not support a strike then Ts and Cs would remain but if a strike goes ahead this cannot be guaranteed.
As BA can't pay some cc one rate and the strikers another I assume the majority vote will count.
If this is correct there will be a vote no campaign.

Point taken about commuters but a lot buy full fare on BMI who do serve LHR

dontdoit

22nd Jan 2010, 17:20

At last, some good news for the BASSA "professionals":

McDonald's Announces It Expects To Create 5,000 UK Jobs After 'Record-Breaking' Year | Business | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Business/McDonalds-Announces-It-Expects-To-Create-5000-UK-Jobs-After-Record-Breaking-Year/Article/201001415533671?lpos=Business_First_Home_Article_Teaser_Regi on_9&lid=ARTICLE_15533671_McDonalds_Announces_It_Expects_To_Creat e_5%2C000_UK_Jobs_After_Record-Breaking_Year_)

TopBunk

22nd Jan 2010, 17:22

617sqnStaff travel may not sway people as you can get cheaper tickets from Easy Jet etc and it's a guaranteed seat.
Personally I haven't used staff travel in years.Never any spare seats when I want to go away.

I think you are totally wrong. Tickets from EasyJet etc tend to be for fixed flights and non-transferable.

So when your flight is delayed for whatever reason, they become very much less flexible than an ID90 standby ticket that can be used on BA/BMI etc; when you just need a stack of them, undated, to see you through a month's commute.

For commuters, it is not about the annual holiday, it's about the routine commute.

Yes, it's become much more expensive over the last few years with the taxes etc, but taking ST away will have an ENORMOUS affect on commuters, to the sum of probably £200 per month and possible airport transfer costs (to get to LTN/STN) and hours of time. The loss of ST will mean that hundreds of those deemed to be strikers will have to give up their jobs and further hasten the introduction of New Fleet.

BASSA are finished, imho.

BAcrewboy

22nd Jan 2010, 17:30

Looking at the recent update on the ESS homepage, I think we can clear up who would be punished in terms of a loss of ST in the event of a strike...

The letter adds that if a strike occurs, crew taking part would lose:

pay and associated days off for duties missed because of strike action
eligibility to staff travel benefits.

Two-Tone-Blue

22nd Jan 2010, 17:30

And to think I used to have to live where I worked! This Staff Travel thing is a bit of a revelation, folks. No wonder some people are a bit excited about any potential loss of such a facility. :hmm:

Maddie Baddie

22nd Jan 2010, 17:39

This is seriously getting out of hand and should have been stopped a long time ago. When reading messages at BASSA and CREW FORUM it really puts me in a lousy and furious mood for numerous reasons. I'm seriously concerned about my blood pressure. Are they for real? What are they thinking? What are they thinking WITH?

I have seen nothing but arrogance and incompetence from BASSA. I don't trust them for a second that they know what they are doing or that they will pull this off. They have placed themselves and many of their members in a corner. It is beyond me that people can have any faith left in BASSA and trust all the rubbish propaganda they are being fed with. How can people still have faith in Lizanne after her fiasco last year when encouraging VR crew to vote? Some defend her by saying she's not a legal person but a chairman of a trade union should know those things. I'm not a legal person either but I used common sense and came to the conclusion that they wouldn't be eligible to vote!

When I get my ballot paper I will vote NO. After that I will resign from BASSA, after having been a member with them since '92, and make a saving of £180 a year. I honestly feel I'm better on my own than being represented by something which can doubtly call themselves a union. Should I ever need assistance in the future I will get help somewhere else.

BASSA showed me their true colours when one of their reps accused me of wanting to destroy the company as my hubby is a pilot. Luckily I was born with the ability of using my vocabulary quickly and the knowledge of how to defend myself.

I am more than tempted to walk pass the picket line when going to work but I doubt it would be near T5. I have nothing to be ashamed of and crew saying they have a long memory and will remember all of us strike breakers don't scare me. And I have another 30 years before retirement!

Hoping to see you all (except for my husband because he'll make a mess in the galley)!

WW Purser

Cpt Fandando

22nd Jan 2010, 17:53

A comment on Unite's website states BA will employ "Scab Crew" to operate flights. After reading that and being a member of another union under Unite's banner; I find that comment just about sums this pathetic Union up, What an insult. I want to keep my job , to support my partner and our 8 week old girl. Im a lot of things but not a "scab". Just saved £11 a month on union deductions from my payroll. Other colleagues feel the same. The union is losing members and money.

Its not the BA crew who need to grow up, but the union reps and leaders.

This company is close to doing a "JAL" but we wont be taken over by our government to restructure......... we will just be signing on the dole instead

saintjoseph

22nd Jan 2010, 18:00

papillon post2728
Quote:
Wrong - the letter says should you vote yes and go on strike
Since the company cannot know whether you as an individual have voted 'yes' or 'no' this clearly applies in the wider sense.

If, as a group, you vote to strike you each, individually, lose ST.

Hope that clears it up.
Not necessarily. It won't be hard for the company to see who comes into work and who doesn't. Those that don't will presumably be the ones who lose out. BA aren't going to penalise those who make the effort to come in.

sorry still haven't figured the quote mechanism properly.
actualyy, BA will know who is strikig. if the vote is yes, that means all unite members are expected to strike. bassa subs are deducted from BA payroll. so in black and white if you are in bassa, and the vote is yes, BA can assume you are striking, and will act accordingly. amicus members have the option of direct debit. which in this scenario seems to provide more of an option for the wannabee yes voter/non striker.

617sqn

22nd Jan 2010, 18:00

All points taken on board.
I was playing devil's advocate.I was also speaking personally.
If I were thinking of striking ,the loss of staff travel would not bother me as I never use it.
I went to Australia recently and paid full fare as we all know the chances of getting on those flights are non existant.

However,if my actions meant that my colleagues who depend on staff travel would lose it through my actions we have emotional blackmail!!
Clever deal isn't it?

SlideBustle

22nd Jan 2010, 18:09

Well done BAcrewboy! (Check your Private messages!) I've had major hang ups like yourself in revoking my membership (is that the right word) but I have heard they have lost quite a number of members. And if you forget the bassa/crewforum there are a lot of crew who are either dead against striking or even the ones who will strike are confused and feel let down but are doing it just to follow the union as they don't want to step out of line!

I am supportive of the new PCCC, which has been set up with some crew on here who have v.sensible minds - after Unite embarass us all once again and PCCC are given more ''airtime'' if you like I'm sure many crew will leave Unite and join pccc in their droves!

TopBunk

22nd Jan 2010, 18:23

Let's just, for a moment, consider a hypothetical example.

If you commute from LAX to LHR, on a 50% contract and have union business also in LHR [for which the union members pay you £100 per day, allegedly] and have been off sick for a year but have recently returned to work, then your commute costs have been about £100 per month. Of course, if you happened to be connected to a union you probably rarely (if ever) travel in the class your ticket entitles you to, and end up being 'comfortable'.

What may the future hold?

Well, a hotline/cheap seat will probably cost £400 return, and current emotions will probably result in any attempt to make the journey more 'comfortable' be a reportable incident, and therefore be in a different class of travel! So, a bit of a change!

Compare this to you commuter from xxx (anywhere from Manchester to Glasgow to Nice to Barcelona) with no Staff Travel.

4 reports a month on Longhaul (more on Shorthaul). Instead of £50 return it's now £80 (but several missed flights due late inbound) so either more fares of many more hours waiting to get home) and either way, probably £200+ per month extra and 20 hours fewer at home - every month.

Do the sums, folks!

Two-Tone-Blue

22nd Jan 2010, 18:58

i am sure that the British Media are monitoring this thread, and taking note of the way things may be moving.

Of course, it's only the Internet ... but somehow I'm getting genuine feelings from reading this daily.

[I'm only a paying customer, so what do I know?]

TOM100

22nd Jan 2010, 19:05

I think BASSA, frankly, are toast, they really are lacking in any strategy/end game. Also, I don't know why BA do not just 'bin' CC89 at this stage.

Blair et al have clearly reneged on the original raison d'etre and purpose of why they were set up. They are now one and the same as BASSA and frankly an irrelevance with no clout, little support/base and frankly diluting the time of BA. Why bother dealing with two TUs when they are clearly the same and BA are providing facilities x2, allowing reps x 2 etc etc etc

They serve no purpose and are more dead than BASSA !! BV shud keep to being a local councillor !

www.westfieldvillage.co.uk/councillors (http://www.westfieldvillage.co.uk/councillors)

BA, show your mettle and finish this once and for all, please don't do a 'mike street' !!

fly12345

22nd Jan 2010, 19:11

The disgraceful behavior of the union is threatening the viability and survival of our airline, I have written to my MP denouncing such behavior as a direct threat to my livelihood and those of my colleagues.
This charade has to stop!

deeceethree

22nd Jan 2010, 19:12

I believe the Guardian is to do a piece tomorrow about pilots supporting BA's efforts to keep the business going during any strike. Apparently it won't be complimentary.

I wonder who put them up to that then? :rolleyes:

davecr

22nd Jan 2010, 19:18

Well, they were the only newspaper to support the 12 day strike over Christmas!

It would appear they're stuck in the same place as BASSA. The 1970's. :p

Papillon

22nd Jan 2010, 19:18

This is already over. If the strike goes ahead, BA will destroy BASSA and the militant tendency - and it may well then damage the T & Cs and incomes of everyone else. If there isn't a strike, then BASSA have shot their bolt and will never again be able to challenge BA, because BA can make the same threats in future.

Long term, a strike may even be in BA's interest, oddly enough. But it certainly isn't in the crew's. Time to pull back ladies and gents, before you wreck what you have.

Desertia

22nd Jan 2010, 19:19

I believe the Guardian is to do a piece tomorrow about pilots supporting BA's efforts to keep the business going during any strike. Apparently it won't be complimentary.

I wouldn't worry about that rag. It's little more than leftie mutton dressed as lamb.

davecr

22nd Jan 2010, 19:20

Unfortunately it would appear that BASSA have reached terminal velocity on this issue - whatever BA does or says infuriates the cabin crew even more.. I don't see an easy way out of this unless Unite pulls the plug on BASSA.. very unlikely!

Carnage Matey!

22nd Jan 2010, 19:20

I hear BASSA have placed an advert in The New Statesmen magazine (wide audience reach there then) claiming they are the best cabin crew in the world. Rather presumptuous. Perhaps it's a mistake and they meant to say best paid cabin crew in the world.

Two-Tone-Blue

22nd Jan 2010, 19:28

@ deeceethree ... in any Industrial dispute, tempers get elevated. It is the inevitable result of a collision between two implacable organisations. In this particular case, a Company in semi-terminal fiscal decline is in collision with an implacable Trades Union which is apparently committed to bringing the Company to ruin.

This is, apparently, a win-win situation for the Union. The end result will, if the Union achieves its objectives, is that BA fails to recover the massive losses currently being incurred. As a result, the Company collapses, along with the living of tens of thousands of employees [direct or indirect]. The direct impact on the BASSA Executive/Council or whatever the upper echelon call themselves, is debatable. But that is still perceived to be a "Good Thing".

This is also, apparently, a win-win situation for BA. If things work out correctly, the Trades Union that has hindered any financial restructuring to save the Company may possibly become history. That may actually save tens of thousands of jobs, and possibly allow BA to re-establish itself in the upper echelon of airline carriers. The direct impact on Mr Walsh and the Board of BA will be to have achieved what they set out to do - run a profitable airline.

[I have Degrees in Rocket Science and Statements of the Obvious] OK - I may have exaggerated a bit.

Dairyground

22nd Jan 2010, 19:32

The letter clearly states

Therefore before you vote, I want you to be fully aware of the consequences should you vote yes and go on strike. In those circumstances, you would:

Lose staff travel permanently
Lose pay for any duties you miss if you go on strike, including associated days off

You really do need to concentrate and stop making things up

For once, I agree with A Lurker.

In real life I am not a lawyer, but have described myself from time to time as a professional pedant. My role has been to develop specifications for IT systems that are sufficiently unambiguous that multiple groups from possibly very different cultures will interpret them in the same way. The relevant parts of the letter appear to me to be a study in ambiguity. Taken literally, they can be interpreted as saying that someone who votes no but follows a majority into a strike will not lose staff travel privileges.

Bill Francis has left himself plenty of wriggle room for concessions in a "kiss and make up" period after the death of BASSA. But he may well take a hard line in the immediate aftermath.

ExSp33db1rd

22nd Jan 2010, 19:36

And to think I used to have to live where I worked! This Staff Travel thing is a bit of a revelation, folks. No wonder some people are a bit excited about any potential loss of such a facility

Absolutely ! and to help cut the cost of S.T. to the Company they are kicking us long serving old buffers out to touch totally - is that the Silver Bullet that is going to save B.A. ? I doubt it.

I hope you can manage to hang on to YOUR S.T., to enable you to keep your Villa on the Riviera, whereas I won't be able to even occasionally use my Interline availability from where B.A. fear to tread.

B.A. " promises " - don't make me laugh.

Maybe B.A. should go under, at least we will all be in the same boat then.

Enjoy.

Da Dog

22nd Jan 2010, 19:41

Any other pilots out there want to file a bullying and harassment against the BASSA muppets still employed by BA?

I mean what does "look after the pilots " really mean, is that a veiled threat?
Also after BALPA threaten legal action against the news article, it was re-written with the words "foxtrot Oscar" now I know what the intent of that comment means and so will anyone else, last time I looked if I told any BA employee to "foxtrot Oscar" in work or outside it would be considered to be bullying and harassement. Maybe this could be the nail in the coffin for the kitchen fitter or the LAX resident.

I can't wait for the Newspaper article tomorrow, I might try and double their circulation by buying one.:ok:

Two-Tone-Blue

22nd Jan 2010, 19:41

@ exspeedbird ... how sad. When I left my full-time professional career, I handed in my ID card and drove out of RAF Uxbridge for the last time. With nothing except my pension. No other benefits that I've ever discovered.

Good luck to you and the Unions that created your world. The rest of us live in reality. Cheers, Skipper.

legandawing

22nd Jan 2010, 20:06

Guardian take on the letter! all quotes and nothing too bad in there...

Striking BA cabin crew will lose travel perks | Business | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/jan/22/british-airways-strike-employee-benefits)

ExSp33db1rd

22nd Jan 2010, 20:09

......... No other benefits that I've ever discovered.

.........but were you promised any when you started ? Did the RAF honour all that you expected when you signed on ? They did for me - B.A. have moved the goalposts mid-game, that's my gripe, integrity and honour don't feature in their attitude. It used to in BOAC.

From Tunbridge Wells

22nd Jan 2010, 20:14

Maddie Baddie (sorry, I still don't know how to quote from another post :confused:) but I applaud you.
The forums are still full of the same old, same old spouting "we love you Lala"...type of brain-washed rhetoric.

One day, a study will be done of how a mass of people were hypnotised by these forums and believed such tripe but it will be sadly at the cost of a really (on the whole) decent bunch of employees.

BAcrewboy

22nd Jan 2010, 20:25

This is something that all of us need to be aware of. Please take extra care as you go about your duties. Stay safe!

"The UK terror threat level is being raised from "substantial" to "severe", Home Secretary Alan Johnson has said. The new alert level means a terrorist attack is considered "highly likely"."

BBC News - UK terrorist threat level raised to 'severe' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8476238.stm)

Papillon

22nd Jan 2010, 20:28

617sqn

22nd Jan 2010, 20:30

Tunbridge Wells
Look at CF it's the same old people spouting the same old rubbish.
It's all propoganda anyway.They have 2 or 3 user names each to make out there are more of them thinking the same way.
Go on there and say Bassa are rubbish and a waste of money and see how long a ban you get.

617sqn

22nd Jan 2010, 20:57

Papillon
I agree with your line of thinking,but the use of you in the letter is ambiguous and needs clarification.
I agree that BA are not stupid and would not penalise working crew but it does need an explanation.
Either meaning is a winner for BA
If you(singular) strike you lose benefits.BA Don't careYou are a striker.WIN
If you(majority)strike then every one loses.Onus on the crew to return a no vote.Battle fought amongst crew.WIN
It is a very well thought out plan.

From Tunbridge Wells

22nd Jan 2010, 20:57

617 sqn - I suspect you're right. If anyone dares have a different point of view from these Stepford Wives, they are accussed of being a pilot or a management toady:ugh:

It's horrific - nice people sleepwalking into a precipice

(and shame on some of those ex-crew who are egging them on - easy to do when you're drawing a pension and have nothing to lose :=)

Papillon

22nd Jan 2010, 21:03

It is a very well thought out plan.

Indeed it is. Your summary seems spot on to me.

Human Factor

22nd Jan 2010, 21:04

If you(singular) strikes you lose benefits.BA Don't care you are a striker.WIN
If you(majority)strike then every one loses.Onus on the crew to return a no vote.Battle fought amongst crew.WIN
It is a very well thought out plan.

Obviously, the latest email won't be the last of the comms. What BA are trying to prevent at the moment is a "Yes" vote. If they succeed, BASSA will be dismantled by Easter. If they fail and there is a "No" vote, they will attempt to dissuade potential strikers from walking.

No doubt Lurker will get suitable clarification of the email at that point. :zzz:

winstonsmith

22nd Jan 2010, 21:08

Latest crap from BASSA.

ACTION ALERT
BRITISH AIRWAYS
CABIN CREW
Unions at British Airways condemn
attempts to recruit strike breakers

Unite and the GMB have called on all
workers at British Airways to reject the
company's call for strike breakers and
to think twice before falling into the
vicious trap being set by the BA to not
only undermine a lawful trade dispute
involving our cabin crew colleagues,
but to identify weaknesses in other
work groups to be exploited to the full
at a later date.
Whilst BA would wish you to believe that you
would be ‘backing BA’ in volunteering to ‘keep the
airline flying’ during any potential dispute there is
a more sinister game being played out here.
BA have been trying for over a year now to find ways
of restructuring their operations, driving cost from
the business and remodelling industrial relations.
During this period that have reached agreement in
two areas; engineering and flight deck;
􏰀 The flight deck reached agreement on the
saving of £26 million while in engineering
three agreements where consolidated into
one.
􏰀 There are no agreements with our; GSS,
‘A’ Scale or Cabin Crew Communities.
The company are seeking £127 million of saving
from Cabin Crew; 2000 redundancies, changes to
work organisation and an end to relationships and
collective agreements that we have held with the
company for many years.
Despite our best collective efforts no agreement
has yet been reached with the company but we
will continue to talk despite their imposition of
change in November 2009.
􏰀 Proposals have been tabled by Unite that
meet the company 90% of the way, still the
company want 100% of the cake and a little
more.
Your colleagues in cabin crew have voted by 92%
to support a negotiated settlement with an 80%
turnout. Ruled unlawful by a judge, Unite are now
reballoting while continuing to talk but instead of
BA using this time and their best efforts to resolve
issues between us they, they choose to plunge
huge resources into establishing a strike breaking
force. WHY?
􏰀 They want your job in your area and you will
be showing them that it is excess to requirements!
􏰀 They want your pension benefits!
􏰀 They want your Redeployment agreement
and careerlink protections!
􏰀 They want complete flexibility and operational
freedom, trade unions that accept their ‘right to
manage’, performance pay, few career prospects
and a low cost new workforce!
It suits them right now to develop mistrust and
resentment as they plan their attacks; if successful
at breaking cabin crew how long do you think it
will be before they come for you!
It’s not just about trade union principles,
it’s your own self interest you need to
think about!
Steve Turner Mick Rix
Unite GMBgl

lekkerste

22nd Jan 2010, 21:08

A BA captain who retired in 1990 (which would be the case if you were presently aged 75) would in all probability be on a six-figure pension. I'm sure it is well-earned. I'm not sure though of the advisability of posting on a thread whinging about the great wrong you have been done re. staff travel when people here are fearing for their futures.

From Tunbridge Wells

22nd Jan 2010, 21:17

Thanks all for helping me quote a post!

Unfortunately it would appear that BASSA have reached terminal velocity on this issue - whatever BA does or says infuriates the cabin crew even more.. I don't see an easy way out of this unless Unite pulls the plug on BASSA.. very unlikely!

It would be good to see Bassa apologise for their claims against Balpa's participation in setting up a page on Balpa's forum to register interest to become temp cabin crew -
not holding my breath

winstonsmith

22nd Jan 2010, 21:30

617spn

Look at CF it's the same old people spouting the same old rubbish.
It's all propoganda anyway.They have 2 or 3 user names each to make out there are more of them thinking the same way.
Go on there and say Bassa are rubbish and a waste of money and see how long a ban you get.

Not sure if they have 2 to 3 user names as they would not allow it - tempting thought though - at least some (or one or two) - have a picture of themselves as an avatar - which gives some seriousness to the discussion - others are hiding behind ridicilous user names.

sweety

22nd Jan 2010, 21:34

I'm one of the disillusioned Unite CC members.

I have also been banned from CF as I asked a few questions and questioned Unite's actions / non actions.

I will be withdrawing my Membership.

But before that I would like to vote "NO" as I think every "NO" vote will be valuable if we want to make (or try to make) a difference. So I don't want to waste this opportunity.

I have some questions that some of you might know the answers to.

If I vote "NO" and withdraw my membership the day after, what would be the consequences? Will Unite know who I was and not take my "NO" into account?
Would that make strike "illegal" as in theory I wouldn't be a member any more?

Another thought:

Regardless of what I vote for, if I'm on days off / leave / sick / maternity during the strike, how would BA know which way I voted? This is to do with who they'd take the ST benefits away from if not everyobody.

:confused:

ottergirl

22nd Jan 2010, 21:48

If I vote "NO" and withdraw my membership the day after, what would be the consequences? Will Unite know who I was and not take my "NO" into account?
Would that make strike "illegal" as in theory I wouldn't be a member any more?

Another thought:

Regardless of what I vote for, if I'm on days off / leave / sick / maternity during the strike, how would BA know which way I voted? This is to do with who they'd take the ST benefits away from if not everyobody.

http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif

There are many, myself included, who have hung on to our membership just to vote NO. I can't see any possible repercussions. I don't think it will make the strike illegal if you wait to see the result of the ballot before resigning. BA will have no way of knowing which way you voted so in this case, you'll have to move heaven and earth to get into work if you are rostered to be there! If you are not rostered, i.e part-time or maternity then you cannot be assumed to be on strike as you can't withhold labour that is not due. Either way, don't worry too much about the Staff travel - last time (1997), and the time before that (1993ish), it was reinstated within the month!

I am BA crew and all thoughts are my own and not those of my employer.

Norman Point

22nd Jan 2010, 21:49

Gee, this is gettin' real excitin', folks!

I am unsure whether the current scenario reminds me of the last act of Wagner's Gotterdamerung or the last days in the Nazi Fuhrerbunker in May 1945.

Will there be mass suicides by BASSA reps, all crunching simultaneously on their cyanide capsules? Will we hear the report of a single pistol shot to Miss Lala's head as the whole darn shootin' match collapses around her?

This would be much, much more exciting than any "duh-duh-duh" ending of a key episode of "EastEnders" - if it were not for the fact that the BASSA leadership will do all they possibly can to bring down BA and all its staff, their families, pensioners, contractors and all BA's out-station staff around their dead bodies.

To be serious, this could turn out to be a genuine tragedy.

winstonsmith

22nd Jan 2010, 21:51

Funny - CF has 3787 members - how many of them are raising their voice - mainly these ones with the nicknames shortenings are keeping their forum alive with their 100% BASSA propaganda - JF, DW and NJR - less than 100 in total - and they think they are in majority.

617sqn

22nd Jan 2010, 21:54

Sweety
That is a prime example of the different ways of reading this letter.
It is unenforceable on an individual basis.
what about the crew who voted yes and are stuck down route.They can't strike as they are away from base but how will BA know how they voted.Will they keep their staff travel voting yes but not part of the strike.
Will the no voters stay at a different hotel down route to the yes voters?
Of course not.
The majority vote decides the rules.
It cannot be enforced on an individual basis.
BA has played an extremly clever game.
All crew benefit will benefit from a no vote.
It is in the interest of all crew to go against the union.
That is very clever to get to that state.
Discuss.

SlideBustle

22nd Jan 2010, 21:55

Hiya! I'm another Unite member hanging on to Vote No! In my opinion, if we don't hang on then when the next ballot comes and all us who are to vote no have left they will have a 100% ballot result which will make them smug! Even if 5000 were non unionised, although if most of us were non unionised a strike wouldn't make a difference anyway!

A Lurker

22nd Jan 2010, 21:59

617sqn

22nd Jan 2010, 22:03

A Lurker

Is that a confirmation of the corrupt workings of CF?

ottergirl

22nd Jan 2010, 22:05

I must confess, SlideBustle, that I have been gently persuading my colleagues on the aircraft not to resign either but to stay and vote NO. We really don't have a choice. It's like holding a tiger by the tail, if you let go it'll bite you! Our best chance is to all stay put and send both Unions a strong message, just not the one they want! In fact, perhaps we should encourage more people to join to make the message clearer! (how about it PCCC?)

I do have a letter of resignation for Amicus already written just in case though!:)

Papillon

22nd Jan 2010, 22:09

even if you call in sick you will be deemed to be on strike

There will be some people (inevitably) who are genuinely ill. BA will doubtless insist on a fair bit of proof that this is the case.

Papillon

22nd Jan 2010, 22:16

A Lurker - as I understand it (and I could be wrong), self-certification only applies in terms of handling statutory sick pay. I'm not sure there's anything that stops BA demanding that staff prove genuine sickness, and I'm certain they'll have investigated that thoroughly.

617sqn

22nd Jan 2010, 22:21

A Lurker
Look at your post it doesn't make sense.
If you are down route then you are not on strike.That is agreed.But if you voted yes and down route then you have contributed to a majority vote maybe.
Why should that yes voter keep staff travel but one who is due to report that day but doesn't due to strike action lose it?
That is going to cause a discussion in the galley isn't it?

Ben Asher

22nd Jan 2010, 22:21

I also think that BA would undertake a 'willing to work' trawl again and that rosters for March would as a result be completely different to the roster issued on 21st Feb (speaking about EF here). So they would know beforehand that you were willing to work.

Clarified

22nd Jan 2010, 22:22

Another thought:

Regardless of what I vote for, if I'm on days off / leave / sick / maternity during the strike, how would BA know which way I voted? This is to do with who they'd take the ST benefits away from if not everyobody.

Sweety, I have been reading a lot about the withdrawing of ST benefits on this forum since the announcement.
The way I understand it is simple. If you withdraw your labour, (break your contract of employment), you will lose your ST benefits.
If I am correct then the terms of which the company judge a person on strike will trigger that response. eg. Not showing for a rostered duty or being sick.
So I think it follows that work normally and you won't be sanctioned.

Oh lord, I think I have just agreed with 'A lurker' on this topic.
Maybe we can find some more common ground?
I am backing BA, are you?

All my thoughts as usual, not representative of my employer or anyone else.

A Lurker

22nd Jan 2010, 22:23

Ill for less than seven calendar days - can your employer ask for a medical certificate when paying Statutory Sick Pay?

No. If you are an employee you can self-certify for the first seven days of your illness. An employer is not allowed to ask for medical evidence (including medical certificates) during the first seven days of absence.

Here is the link from the Government - it uses Swine Flu as an example

Swine flu - self certification and Statutory Sick Pay : Directgov - Swine flu (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Swineflu/DG_180996)

Ben Asher

22nd Jan 2010, 22:27

See my previous post - surely if you say beforehand that you are willing to work, if something unfortunate were to happen to you, it would no doubt be investigated but I'm sure consideration would be given to your circumstances.

617sqn

22nd Jan 2010, 22:28

A LURKER

Please read my post 2839 about striking.
Also please note that when IA takes place all the rules go out the window.

Papillon

22nd Jan 2010, 22:34

Statutory sick pay - even if payable, is £79 per week.

617sqn

22nd Jan 2010, 22:39

But the letter is open to interpretation.
How I'm looking at it is this time it's going to be the majority rules.
In the past maybe you may have got off lightly by being down route,hols,part time etc.
I think Willie Walsh is very clever and has got that one sewn up.
I don't think it is fair that one yes voter gets away with it and another doesn't just because of who they know in scheduling.

You cannot enforce it on an individual basis.The letter says vote NO to keep hotels,Terms etc and vote yes to lose them.
Tell me how is that possible to have a system where the yes voters go to one hotel and the no voters to another.
Don't go on about the past.I have been there too but this is different

Doors To Manuel

22nd Jan 2010, 22:50

an ID90 standby ticket that can be used on BA/BMI etc; when you just need a stack of them, undated, to see you through a month's commute.

If ST is a lifeline for you for other airlines then try this to check loads on other airlines.
idD standby screens (http://www.iddeals.com/availability)

fingers crossed you still need it in three months time !

617sqn

22nd Jan 2010, 22:58

A Lurker
Sorry for the delay my last post got deleted.No idea why wasn't rude.
When I said Wllie has it sewn up I meant he may realise the unfairness of a yes voter being down route and keeping staff travel and a yes voter striking from base losing them.That would be unfair to lose a benefit due to Tracie.
Also there is talk of new hotels.How can you have a yes voter in one hotel and a no voter in another?
That is why I understand the letter to mean you (plural)
That is if the majority of crew vote yes then everyone will have the same sanctions.
I think we will get more info soon

I do think that is unfair to the no voters and non union members.
Is it fair to the yes voters though wherever they may be on strike day?

CaptainBarbosa

22nd Jan 2010, 23:08

As I read the letter if you break your contract by not turning up for a trip (and I believe that during industrial dispute the rosters will be torn up, you'll get minimum notice for whatever trip BA decides to operate and you'll be expected to show) then you are going to be permanantly losing staff travel. If you are sick you are going to have to prove that you are sick. The 7 day rule for doctors notices won't apply and if you think it does its going to take some very expensive weeks in court to decide if you are correct. If you are down route it is normal practice to work your trip home. Expect the company to askyou before hand if you are going to back BA. If you say no then BA will apply the same sanctions to you. If you say yes then expect to get minimum legal rest back in the UK then another trip out. You can't hide on this one. If you vote for a strike then realise that is exactly what you'll get and you will be declaring to BA whether or not you are in or out.
Good luck with the ballot. I hope that you realise just where BASSA reps are taking you.

617sqn

22nd Jan 2010, 23:08

A Lurker
Accept what you say but don't you think he would rather we all that argument now and returned a no vote?
That would save all the hassle of a strike for BA.
The crew would have a good old debate on that one in the galley.
All of a sudden it would ,may be, urging each other to vote no because it's not just ST and hotels at stake.
If I have interpreted the letter right it is a very clever idea.
If all crew were to lose out then they would be hassling BAssa for some negotiation.

617sqn

22nd Jan 2010, 23:16

A lurker
Thanks for the debate.It's always good to see the other side and come up with ideas.
I'm off to bed now.

A Lurker

22nd Jan 2010, 23:16

No probs - have a good weekend

Clarified

22nd Jan 2010, 23:19

I see it differently.

I think the company has been reasonable and fair, no, it has not been a push over and no, it has not thrown money at the situation. It hasn't got any!
I think the issues have been personalised and distorted to such a degree that people are having trouble seeing the wood for the trees.
Saying that, an increasing number of people are now challenging certain responses to the situation, (many examples on this forum).
I do not think the company has an agenda to 'smash' the trade unions or 'working agreements'. It needs change but is willing to look after those people in the business. Yes we do have to make sacrifices, most departments already have, months ago.
I think this could have been a real opportunity for the unions, proactively engaging the company, ensuring their member's futures, their future and of course BA's future, without an airline there isn't a union!

Where we go from here is anyones guess, I like option A. No strike, if option B is carried out it could 'smash' the company.
Those T & C's would disappear, finished, gone forever. Picture it, people standing there scratching their heads asking 'what happend'? 'If only!'
It'll be too late then.
Let's hope that doesn't happen, we can agree again tonight on that one, can't we?

My thoughts in response to previous post, not my employers or any other party.

PilotsPal

22nd Jan 2010, 23:19

I hesitate to step into the fray but I may be able to add a little clarity.

I would say that the letter from Bob Francis would be interpreted by a court/tribunal as being sent to each recipient on a personal basis. It was not specifically addressed to a group or body of recipients. The word "you" throughout should be taken to mean the individual recipient, i.e. yourself.

As regards self-certification, the legal requirement for the purposes of SSP is indeed a maximum of seven days. However, when you are sick your employer pays you the difference between SSP and your normal basic salary. For this an employer can ask for medical certification in any way it chooses including sending you to see the employer's doctor. Many companies nowadays have an outright limit on the number of sick days that may be taken in a twelve month period before pay over and above SSP is lost. In cases of genuine illness it can be better to turn up and subsequently be sent home when difficult circumstances such as IA are taking place.

(For the record, I spent 35 years working in City law firms, almost all in a corporate environment with the last eight specifically in the area of pensions/employee benefits.)

cresmer

22nd Jan 2010, 23:37

I read in the news that BA are considering, as a result of the threatened strike action, downgrading the Hotels used for night stops and removing travel perks.
For me this is simply wonderful news. Both the Union and the striking Cabin Crew seem to think they can have this thing "their own way". I am glad BA are upping the anti. Given the disputed work practices are already operating at Gatwick I see absolutely no justification for this strike action. Having recently sampled BA's long haul and Europe in-flight service that further re-enforces my view. The current BA service is very very ordinary. I think the cabin crew should smarten up their act instead of threatening strike action. People in glass houses................

BAcrewboy

22nd Jan 2010, 23:52

With all due respect, the meagre service which is currently in place on Eurofleet was the decision of BA management, not the crew on board.

BAcrewboy

22nd Jan 2010, 23:54

Also, BA get the hotels with such a discount that I am not sure they could get a better deal with a budget chain. Besides, the hotel accommodation comes out of the pilot budget - in addition, we need to be adequately rested for our duties, so only a good quality hotel will do really!

flybymerchant

22nd Jan 2010, 23:57

A Lurker

just to 'flesh out' your analogy referring to this whole debacle coming down to the toss of a coin, may I just suggest that it's not a coin at all, but a star-crossed Irish Lucky Charm and whilst I think everyone knows who the proper 'tossers' are, I think we're all equally sure which side will use its 'heads' to its advantage and which side will do as it did last time and tuck its 'tails' between its legs and graciousLessly scurry away, claiming the victory as always, blaming everyone but themselves as always, victimising the pilots, alienating themselves from everyone and learning ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AS ALWAYS....so predictable
When will the lid be lifted on this oppressive and un-British regime?

Papillon

23rd Jan 2010, 00:04

Also, BA get the hotels with such a discount that I am not sure they could get a better deal with a budget chain.

No, that's really not true you know. Hotel rates for BA crews are quite high.

SlideBustle

23rd Jan 2010, 00:04

I agree - I do love my InterContinentals and Marriott's darling!! We do need change etc. but I think some people need to be fair to us crew. I am a no voter and against the strike and am fed up of the militant attitude but some people would love to see the job of cabin crew eroded as we are only mere ''waiters/waitresses'. :rolleyes: I know on shorthaul we sometimes do very easy days (MAN there and back anyone!) but many trips are in excess of 11hour days with a lot of rushing with delays etc and sometimes I don't even have time for a proper meal (hate the plane food!) so we do need good quality hotels. If we had to stay in airport Travelodge's everywhere we went - would the pilots also agree to that. No disrespect intended and I am a no voter and am willing to change - but that doesn't mean I want to erode my job completely!

BAcrewboy

23rd Jan 2010, 00:10

I agree Slide

It's important that we once again gain a little respect for our job. As we all know, we do our job because we choose to, not because we are incapable of doing anything else. We are, in the whole, a professional group of people who work hard for a reasonable (yes, on the new contract it's just reasonable) salary. Add to that the Christmasses and weekends we work, the birthdays and anniversaries we miss, and the total disruption to our rosters and loss of a large amounts of allowances in the ever-more frequent events of bad weather. I too am a no voter - but I want to be proud to work for BA and expect to be well looked after working in such a great company!

FlexSRS

23rd Jan 2010, 00:16

(MAN there and back anyone!)

That's nothing! I regularly take crew up to MAN positioning up in the morning, (but not too early darling), night stop MAN, and 1 sector home, the next afternoon! I have recently had a bunch of "1 out, standover day 1 back" and even pos out, standover, 1 back! On my last 4 day 10 sector SH tour, every single one of the crews was either on a one sector day or was about to nightstop with one short (less that 1.5hr) sector home. It can't continue, it really can't.

But anyway, I take your point.

Speak to any crew member that has done charter, or in fact, worked for any other airline, or in fact, I will go further, any crew member that has worked in the "real world", even a paper round, and they will tell you they are on to a good thing and they are happy with their deal. I have not heard a single whinge about the new crewing levels on SH since the first week they came in.

I find the most militant crew are the people that have only ever worked for BA, more often than not straight from school, who have no idea what it is like elsewhere. I really, honestly hope they don't spoil it for the rest of the crew who would quite happily work a bit harder to keep their excellent reward package.

SlideBustle

23rd Jan 2010, 00:28

Edited to remove post

Ben Asher

23rd Jan 2010, 00:30

FlexSRS - shall we leave these issues to scheduling? As I'm sure you are aware, there are strong commercial reasons for having an a/c operate a first flight of the morning out of any airport, particularly weekdays.

Slidebustle and BACrewboy - I'm with you on everything you say. I think there are many more out there like us who oppose BASSA's scorch earth policy. I too have been upset by some anti-crew posts from within and outside BA on this site, but aside from the comment from Singapore this evening, I have been impressed by the healthy level headed debate tonight at a very testing time for all of us.

BAcrewboy

23rd Jan 2010, 00:36

I agree Ben

We just need to stop the blind leading the blind in this company - you ask almost any crew why they are voting yes and they spurt the usual BASSA rhetoric "well if we don't do it now then the job is finished" or, even worse, they don't know why they are voting yes - simply because BASSA are telling them to!

SlideBustle

23rd Jan 2010, 00:42

The most infruriating thing for me is the arguments from people;

''If we don't strike now this will be it, our jobs will be gone forever. BA won't negotiate and they want to attack Cabin crew. We will all be on £1000 a month and the company will change your days off when they want. We will have to leave or live in a shared flat in Hounslow if we want to stay in the job. They will impose more. This is just the start. It will be days off next. Then they will make us fly with minimum crew on all flights. Also who wants a group of 20something year olds serving them''

ETC ETC ETC! Does my head in!

The strike is about the imposition. However I fear if we strike they will be forced to impose more and more!! I too am worried about them changing your duties at a whim and also days off but it hasn't got to that stage yet. Negotiate before it is too late! Like Bill said in his latest ESS, if we strike they can't guarantee our safeguards of our current pay and allowances which, for the time being are being safeguarded!

Ten West

23rd Jan 2010, 00:43

...the birthdays and anniversaries we miss,

I hear this all the time from my cabin crew guys too. Ever heard of a concept called "Leave"? Birthdays and anniversaries tend to fall on the same day each year if I remember rightly? ;)

FlexSRS

23rd Jan 2010, 00:44

I never understand aswell how we cannot do a NCE link for domestic nighstops.

The only reason why you can't do it is because BASSA will say no if the company asks, even if the crew wanted it because it would give them an extra day off per month. Pilots do things like a LYS-LHR-BEG-LHR day, so I'm sure a NCL-LHR-NCE-LHR isn't out of the question.

Ben Asher
shall we leave these issues to scheduling?

This is part of the 'blame someone else / not my aisle' problem (not aimed at you directly). Yes, it is an issue for scheduling, because their hands are tied by BASSA agreements that are not good for the company, and not good for crew in some cases, and to refuse down right to change anything just as a matter of course is the exact behaviour that has got you all in to this mess in the first place.

If BASSA listened to their members, which would possibly involve actually asking crew what they want, things like linking a NCE to a NCL might be acceptable to crew, or even desirable (ie, if I'm going to be at work that day, may as well make some cash / do it now and have an extra day off), could be used to negotiate with the company. Ie, 'hey Bill, we will do this, and it will save you £10m, how about we split it 50/50 and put £5m in to a 'long link payment' and you keep the other £5m towards our target.

Rather than look at all these endless inefficiencies as 'someone else's problem / department', your union could be actively looking at ways around them to get a mutual advantage for you and BA. There are so many painless ways to save money and protect your pay, that is why this conflict is such a waste in so many ways, and why anyone with half a brain feels totally let down by La La lady and her kitchen fitting mates. I just hope people realise in time how this could have been done.

Ben Asher

23rd Jan 2010, 00:44

BACrewBoy - it's very mixed. I was very encouraged on my flight yesterday by views expressed, but totally depressed today!

Ben Asher

23rd Jan 2010, 00:49

FlexSRS - sorry but I'm not prepared to get involved in this discussion on a public forum! Maybe over a pint... As you know, some of us have given up with Unite now though maybe we should rejoin to vote 'No'!

FlexSRS

23rd Jan 2010, 00:52

On a related point;

Pilots offering to work as cabin crew supporting non-striking crew;

Q. Do you think that pilots who do this will get victimised, tea spat in, isolated, cold shouldered etc after the event by striking crew who find out that they were involved? Or do you think the militant crew who seem to hate pilots anyway will just tar all pilots with the same brush?

I'm a bit concerned about possible reprisals if I offer to help, I fear that not all of the crew are logical and reasonable about things like this, and I really don't fancy finding my car keyed when I get back, or drinking bottled water and bringing a packed lunch for the next 20 years.

On the other forums, just how much anti pilot bile is there at the moment?

Thanks.

cresmer

23rd Jan 2010, 00:55

I am not referring to the packaged snack, I am referring to the demeanour of the Cabin Crew.

Newyorker001

23rd Jan 2010, 00:57

If ST goes your hotline goes as well

Ben Asher

23rd Jan 2010, 00:57

I hear this all the time from my cabin crew guys too. Ever heard of a concept called "Leave"? Birthdays and anniversaries tend to fall on the same day each year if I remember rightly?

Ten West - un unfair jab at BACrewBoy and I'm afraid this is just the type of dismissive, unnecessary and patronising comment we were referring to. With that, I'm off to bed guys.

SlideBustle

23rd Jan 2010, 00:59

I can see your point Ben Asher. But this is what this topic is about. But I do see your point. We don't want the Daily Mail to latch on that all we ever do is one out one back standovers everywhere as we all know that is way off the mark! Our trips are very mixed, some easy some very hard and tiring!

As long as I keep my pay I am happy to work abit harder. I would rather keep my days off as they are thanks but work abit harder whilst I am at work. As long as I have proper rest and proper rest after a long day then I'm happy. I'm on new (post 1997) contract and like some say on here we are far from ''fat cats'' that the DM will have people believe! I earn a reasonable salary (don't want to publish average earnings on here as it isn't fair and is a public forum!) and can afford a good lifestyle but it is far from lavish or a fat cat salary even with allowances. i probably get only a little more than some airlines like EZY, charters on an average month. Plus I live in London. However there are some changes to working practises and having 3 crew on a half full 319 to PRG is hardly a big deal.

Anyway I'm rambling so shall shut up!

cresmer

23rd Jan 2010, 01:02

".....Add to that the Christmasses (sic) and weekends we work, the birthdays and anniversaries we miss, and the total disruption to our rosters and loss of a large amounts of allowances in the ever-more frequent events of bad weather."

BACabinBoy makes the point he chose the job, so, he also elects to cope with the baggage that comes with the job. Some posters are beginning to sound like US Servicemen who complain others shoot at them!

BAcrewboy

23rd Jan 2010, 01:08

Ten West - no need to get funny mate - the way that the crew leave system works at BA LHR means that once every 3 years you have a reasonably good chance of geting what you want but for the other 2 years you have almost no chance whatsoever - besides, that was just an example to demonstrate that I think BA crew are worth every penny of the money we earn - As i said before, I am a no voter who will break the picket if needs be - but I am still an intelligent human being who wants to be respected for my work.

As for the comment about reprisal from the crew of you volunteer as crew, can you guarantee that those crew who feel strongly enough to strike (thy exist and it's their choice if they choose to strike) will be immune from the often snidy comments of our colleagues in the flight deck?

Ten West

23rd Jan 2010, 01:09

Not trying to be funny, and no offence meant. I wasn't trying to be dismissive at all. We all work in the airline industry, which by its very nature is 24/7 and 365 days a year. We all know this when we sign on the dotted line.

Personally, I deal with the rostering of about 3,500 crew members. I have no way of knowing whether they have any special anniversaries or particular days off that they need.

If I have to be somewhere special on a given day then I book it as leave.I don't consider it unreasonable to expect my colleagues who work on the aircraft to do the same.

I'm not sure about BA, but in my airline if someone works one Christmas then they get the next Christmas period off. Perfectly fair.

BAcrewboy

23rd Jan 2010, 01:11

Cresmer - I am not complaining at all - just want to make it clear that although I think that this strike is a silly silly idea, I do not think that it is fair to start an all out witch hunt for us crew who are fortunate to have good contracts

SlideBustle

23rd Jan 2010, 01:12

With respect cresmer, I think we all know we chose the job but that does not mean that we have to enjoy absolutely every aspect. It was extremely frustrating with the bad weather a few weeks ago. OK you may say I can pop along to a ''normal'' job - well no because for the most part I absoltely LOVE my job but doesn't mean I am thrilled when my life is disrupted. Many crew lost a whole lot of work and allowances during the xmas disruption which if you have a life to pay for can be very frustrating.

Like I say I love my job so wouldn't leave just because of some minor inconvieniences but some people speak as though we have a life of complete and utter pampering. The reality is it can be very disrupted. Our choice to do it yes, but it is still frustrating even if you do realise it is part of the job!

Diplome

23rd Jan 2010, 01:13

If you end up flying with 4 or 5 CC volunteers from Waterside on your flight, I hope you will have every confidence in their security checks and their ability to spot somebody behaving out of the ordinary.

A Lurker. This comment is offensive for many reasons.

If you think that pitching a terrorism threat to customers is a win for BAFFA you should think again.

This disagreement will not be won on the basis of BAFFA's pitching their members as being protective of customers, they lost that argument. As someone who lost friends at the Pentagon on 9-11 I find ANY position made by BAFFA that they are looking to make me more safe when no portion of this disagreement has to do with safety to be offensive.

You really shouldn't take your silly flag raising photo op to heart.

BAcrewboy

23rd Jan 2010, 01:14

Ok Ten West - sorry mate - it's dificult to gauge tone over a forum post - unfortunately we do not have such a system at BA - Christmas is never guaranteed off, and our leave system operates on a yearly rolling basis of 3 groups (top, middle, bottom - top get first pick).

Ten West

23rd Jan 2010, 01:20

No worries mate. And well done of having the guts to leave BASSA! I hope everything turns out well for you.

Perrsonally I book an awful lot of BA flights in the course of my work, and the thing I like the most is that they're reliable. I would be very sad to see an great institution of such long standing brought down by some self-serving dinosaurs.

From reading these updates I feel a lot more confident that this won't happen. :D

FlexSRS

23rd Jan 2010, 01:20

As for the comment about reprisal from the crew of you volunteer as crew, can you guarantee that those crew who feel strongly enough to strike (thy exist and it's their choice if they choose to strike) will be immune from the often snidy comments of our colleagues in the flight deck?

I'm almost certain that some pilots will make some caustic remarks, feelings will be running pretty high. There is a real chance of BA doing a JAL, these guys / girls have mortgages to pay, kids to feed etc. Striking is of course a right, but not all strikes are justified, that is subjective.

However, what I can say with 100% certainty is that no pilots will be keying anyones car over it, or spitting / putting eyedrops in ccrew drinks. I'm not sure I can say the same about the crew.

(Not a reflection on all of you, or even a significant portion, it's just some of the crew have 'form' shall we say. )

Bad times.

BAcrewboy

23rd Jan 2010, 01:22

I agree Ten West - we need to make BA great again and I just hope that when all of this is over, the LT will re-gain some respect for us crew - we really do make a difference to who flies with us and who doesn't (especially for those in the premium cabins who can afford to choose) and I don't think that we always get the recognition and respect that we deserve.

BAcrewboy

23rd Jan 2010, 01:24

Flx - I agree with you one hundred percent - and rest assured that if you find yourself on a flight with me (are u EF?) there shall be no such goings-on!

Ben Asher

23rd Jan 2010, 01:26

BACrewBoy - well said!

FlexSRS - don't think your comments (I'm referring to eye drops, keys etc.) exactly help BACrewBoy's (but just seen he doesn't seem phased by them - unlike me!) Anyway, may I suggest you take your concerns to BALPA and don't air them here.....

FlexSRS

23rd Jan 2010, 01:28

Many crew lost a whole lot of work and allowances during the xmas disruption which if you have a life to pay for can be very frustrating.

So some sort of averaged out meal / travel payment would be pretty good then in this case?

If you turn up for a flight that is canx after a few hours on the ground, you wouldn't loose everything.

(Again, depending on the deal you negotiate.)

Change doesn't have to be always bad. (But then I am preaching to the converted I guess!)

BAcrewboy

23rd Jan 2010, 01:30

IMHO I like the allowance system just as it is - I think that as soon as changes start to be made there, we are going down a slippery slope - take the bad with the good i suppose mate

SlideBustle

23rd Jan 2010, 01:47

Yes I agree. An averaged meal payment could be good. But then is open to abuse. Many crew would then bid for lovely little CDG and backs. Other crew would be slogging it out on the ATH/IST/DME there and backs or 3 day 8 sectors etc and all crew would get the same money! I could accept an hourly rate - on the condition it was averaged out on how much per hour we are paid currently. So take how long I work on an average month and my allowances and divide it and then use that as the hourly rate so it would probably be at a guess £4/£5 an hour. Although then again, the current system is good when you away on a trip because as we know you get more if you do a GVA than you do in PRG. But if you see how much it is to eat downroute in both places you will know one is v.expensive and one is cheap so that's why our current system is fair. Obviously there are inconsistencies that make it very unfair but then there will be in the hourly rate really.

cresmer

23rd Jan 2010, 03:08

ALL jobs have their frustrations. Weather affects everyone. Companies do NOT grant leave EXACTLY as applied for. As I have effectively stated, BA Cabin Crew make their bed, they lie in it.

Desertia

23rd Jan 2010, 05:00

A Lurker

If you end up flying with 4 or 5 CC volunteers from Waterside on your flight, I hope you will have every confidence in their security checks and their ability to spot somebody behaving out of the ordinary.

Just like those eagle-eyed cabin crew that recently spotted the Somalian trying to blow himself up and leapt upon him to restrain him? ***

So you believe that your "security checks" and "ability to spot somebody behaving out of the ordinary" cannot be carried out by staff from other departments.

Dunning-Kruger strikes again.

And I think for a lot of the pro-BASSA brigade, a passenger "behaving out of the ordinary" is one who presses the call button for an extra coffee.

And I see the cretinous Steve Turner is at it again:

Proposals have been tabled by Unite that meet the company 90% of the way, still the company want 100% of the cake and a little more.

BASSA and Unite have LIED about the savings for almost a year. PLEASE - DO NOT start believing their LIES now. Your jobs are at stake.

*** If you don't know, they didn't notice, and the passengers restrained him.

ExSp33db1rd

23rd Jan 2010, 05:19

Look, BA are not going to remove staff travel concessions from those who go to work. They might make decisions people disagree with, but they aren't completely stupid. The last thing they're going to do is shaft those who come to work.

........but they're happy to shaft those who used to work for them - and created the airline that they now have the privilege to lead - 'cos they have no further use for us, and we can't fight back. You too will retire one day.

It's the Hyppo principle. Here's Your Pension, Piss Off.

and for the suggestion that because I'm 75 I must have retired in 1990 with a six figure salary - no, I retired in 1983 on barely 24K salary, so you work out my pension - taken early, my decision of course, but BA have welched on the deal that they offered and I accepted, that's my gripe.

Not going to argue with you anymore, BA are shafting me and I'm not going to stop whingeing about it. Will make no difference anyway.

Best of luck.

Desertia

23rd Jan 2010, 05:25

Exspeedbird

...but they're happy to shaft those who used to work for them - and created the airline that they now have the privilege to lead - 'cos they have no further use for us, and we can't fight back. You too will retire one day.

How are they shafting you exactly? I must have missed this.

TOM100

23rd Jan 2010, 05:33

BACrewboy

Service on board to me is much more than just what is handed out to me, it is about pax interaction, presence in the cabin, smiles, chat (with pax !), regular cabin patrols (and mean regular) etc, doesn't matter what is physically provided. Personally, this is far more valued by me than a cr*p sandwich or meal. easyJet crew are never out of the cabin. In fact on the 319 there is no curtain at the front btwn cabin and (small) galley so they can't be ! And they do SSH there and back. 5hrs + block time each way and they still smile and cabin tidy on short t/r !

Much of my experience of BA crew (not all) is get thru the cabin as quickly as physically possible (smoke coming off the trolley wheels), go to galley, pull curtain across (as tight as possible), get out Daily Mail/Heat, crew or pax food and bitch about the company/talk about shopping, A&F, cosmetic surgery, how overworked you are, the horses etc etc (all for us pax to hear btw). If rudely disturbed by a paying "customer" scoul, tell them you are trying to have a break (all at the same time), sigh and tell them you will get back to them. if you remember (or serve them there and then reluctantly) !! If on LH grab handbag and head to bunk......charter have to make do with sitting on a catering box in the galley on a flight to MLE !!

Like I said, not all crew, but in my 20+ flights or so a year, the usual with BA......this from personal experience I am really not exagerrating......attitude/can do approach is much more appreciated/noticed by pax than physical product imo.

eJ crew have nothing (product wise to give pax) without a price, yet they are usually great. eJ btw have this week advised the markets that their load factor is higher than expected, they expect profits to be significantly higher than originally posted, their yields are higher than expected and they are taking market share from BA and an increasing number of business traffic....look at their website !

BTW not having a go at you. BA crew need to realise they are THE product and integral, not just what they have to hand out and they have huuuuge room for improvement/consistency......

From Tunbridge Wells

23rd Jan 2010, 05:38

I'm a bit concerned about possible reprisals if I offer to help, I fear that not all of the crew are logical and reasonable about things like this, and I really don't fancy finding my car keyed when I get back, or drinking bottled water and bringing a packed lunch for the next 20 years.

On the other forums, just how much anti pilot bile is there at the moment?

Thanks.The only place it seems that crew are having a go at pilots is on the forums after being fed misleading information. I hope justice gets served by taking the appropriate legal action against the people doing this (and their right hand men who are obviously briefed to stir it up some more).

ExSp33db1rd

23rd Jan 2010, 06:37

Desertia, not sure if your remark is a sarcastic wind up, or a geniune enquiry ? I'll treat it as the latter.

How are they shafting you exactly? I must have missed this.

From time immemorial, S.T. has only even been a concession, but one that was valid for life in retirement. When I retired I Cut my Coat According to My Cloth, which included considering the ability to return to visit family in the UK and USA at rebate fares that I could afford. BA have taken that away from me w.e.f. 1st April 2009, except for a "Generous " period of 5 years " To Get Used To It " - both quotes theirs.

Not only me. All pilots used to have to retire at age 55, i.e. with 10 years less service, and 10 years earlier than general staff retiring at 65, so are potentially losing out by 20 years of S.T. in retirement over other staff under the new rules. In the 1980's many general staff took early retirement too - at the behest of the Company, to 'help' them !! called Severance, but part of the package was continued S.T. as before - I have my letter dated 1983 stating just that.

I'm not going into anymore detail, my exchanges with BA management over the last 2 years are well chronicled for those who are genuinely interested in assisting to reverse the decision, and the rest find it borin' - 'cos of course it doesn't affect them. ABAP are trying to get the decision re-visited as a result of action by some of us.

Many occupations offer perks to their staff, airline staff are no different, so I'm not even going to try to justify S.T. in retirement, it has happened ever since S.T. rebate travel was allowed - even if not contractually - to my generation and those before us, and now it has been removed - selectively and vindictively, to a group who are frankly a dying and diminishing breed and would hardly be a blip in the overall scheme of things had we been allowed to maintain what we worked for, and were promised.

I actually have some sympathy with the new philosophy that has started from 1st April 2009, but there was no need to apply it retrospectively to the few old buffers now so cruelly affected.

No excuses, I feel shafted and am angry, and am not going to give up trying to get some alleviation. I accept that this is not the forum, but someone else brought up the issue of Staff Travel v.v. a possible strike, rest assured you will be cut off as quickly as my group have been.

If any reading this Cabin Crew Forum think that BA management will react sympathetically to your concerns - think again. And you too will retire one day.

Very sad, I used to be proud to say that I once worked for BOAC / BA.

Not now.

BusDriverLHR

23rd Jan 2010, 06:43

Had BASSA behaved like almost every other union in BA then you wouldn't be facing these severe measures.

It's a pity No voters will suffer the same degradation in hotel quality as striking crew. It appears to be the case that No voters are going to be a small minority though.

I'm reasonably certain that the withdrawal of staff travel will only apply to those who actually strike.
On a tangent, neither BASSA nor BA know which way you vote. You don't really have to play your cards until the first day you are rostered to work during a strike.

It is going to be a tough decision for those unlucky enough to be rostered an early report on day one of a strike. All your colleagues will be watching you carefully to see what actions BA take. Should BA immediately withdraw your ST permanently can you really see all you colleagues standing strong and subjecting themselves to the same fate? Who knows what other action BA will take? Keep in mind that until they don't show up for work BA must assume an individual is not going to strike.

Should a strike crumble it will only be those who at that point have not shown up for work who will lose ST - not exactly fair, but that's life.

As I said, I wouldn't like to be the guinea pig on day one - it's kind of like being the first one to try and walk across a minefield - everyone else gets to watch and see if you survive. They can then decide whether to follow themselves...