idiots with shotguns

[bugdevheli]

Our local shoot has a few members who could not hit a pig in an entry. Given that shot will travel a hundred yards, has anyone ever been peppered whilst coming in to land. (entry, a narrow brick sided walkway generally leading front the front to the back of a building).

[Dan Reno]

Sure, lots of times in RVN but mostly with bullets, not birdshot.

[John R81]

Cartridges intended for small bird are unlikely to cause damage (even to get through the skin or transparancies) unless the range is short. Given that, you might just see the idiot when on finals

[s1lverback]

Not shot yet, but shoot clays myself and would say the effective range was nearer 40-50 yards (120 feet), after which the shot pattern (depending on choke) disperses too much to be that effective...Also, the energy of the charge is spread amongst the shot which vary in size, weight, etc (larger shot travels further)...:zzz::zzz::zzz:....sorry bored myself to sleep then:}

I avoid overflying shoots when I can, for the same reason, suspicion that someone might take a potshot and scratch the paintwork.

I would have thought though, approaching to land at 65knots (72mph), unlikely they would swing the gun fast enough (unless pointing straight at you) to give enough 'lead' (infront of the target) to hit.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Clays are thrown up to 65/66 feet per second (45mph).

Anyhow, if you think they are shooting at you, take a passenger and shoot back - it'll make 'em think twice:ok:

[Gaseous]

I live in the middle of the local shoot's land and regularly fly through whilst shoots are on. So far no pot shots at me as far as I know but I'm always wary because of the number of birds up. Particularly since I saw a duck go above the cockpit but below the MR. I should imagine it would be a problem if one hit the tail rotor.

[IFHP]

I've been hit by a pellet that had travelled a couple of hundred yards. It hit the back of my hand and another pinged off my car as we drove away from a clay shoot. Non event at that range.

[chester2005]

I know of people who have been shot at on low approaches to Compton airfield in Los Angeles
I was told the first time i went in there, "keep high until over the fence and take a steep approach in.... the locals don't report noise complaints they just shoot you!!!!"

Chester:ok:

[arismount]

For spherical projectiles, with especial regard to shotgun pellets, Journee's Formula gives a theoretical maximum range in yards.

It is: 2200 x D = R

where D is diameter of the shot in inches; and
R= range in yards.

#6 birdshot, diameter 0.11 inch, will have a theoretical maximum range of 242 yards; while #8 birdshot, diameter 0.09 inch, will have a theoretical maximum range of 198 yards.

[R44-pilot]

A couple of hundred yard?:rolleyes:

Bird shot will go no where near that range, buck shot a bit over one hundred.
The only thing fired from a shotgun that will make that range is a slug, and you'd know if that hit you.... plus you don't shoot anything but targets and deer with slug.

Silverback is right, even with a small choke your only looking at 55 yards max, fully open choke 35 yard with birdshot.

I've had bird shot come down on me in a field a few times and it's like small hail, doesn't hurt in the slightest, just irritating that the 'tweeds' can't shoot...:}

Unless there sat next you with a shottie I wouldn't worry to much. If you think you have had one fired at you report it straight away, no place for idiots with guns!:mad:

[A.Agincourt]

Shotguns?? I rather think that a golf ball would be a greater problem, I have used many golf club sites over the last few years. The thought of a ball through the perspex always occurs to me. I don't think it has ever happened yet........or has it?

Best Wishes

AA

[John Eacott]

I rather think that a golf ball would be a greater problem, I have used many golf club sites over the last few years. The thought of a ball through the perspex always occurs to me. I don't think it has ever happened yet........or has it?

Southern Peninsular Rescue Service Longranger had a golf ball through the tail rotor on take off from a golf course some years ago. Didn't do the T/R much good :ooh:

[Bomb Doctor]

For spherical projectiles, with especial regard to shotgun pellets, Journee's Formula gives a theoretical maximum range in yards.


Arismount.....I think you're missing a few more variables in your equation there ;)

I could savagely bore you with the correct answer.....but I'm retired now and vowed never to re-live the horror that was Shrivenham ballistics LMAO

[Bomb Doctor]

.... plus you don't shoot anything but targets and deer with slug.


What about Door hinges, engine blocks? I've also seen the results of human/solid shot interaction.... quite effective :)

(Kosovan dogs didn't like them either come to mention it lol)

[R44-pilot]

Was talking about what we're allowed to use and shoot in th UK....

Buck shot is better for door hinges and locks anyway :p
You shoot a slug with muzzle to the door and its going straight through the next wall!

Yeah a slug would sort out an engine block mind... And yes a human shot with a slug would be effective, if not a little messy....

Think this thread is taking a turn in the wrong direction! :}

And I agree Arismount has got something very wrong in that formula! Show me a shotgun that can fire any number bird shot at 242 yards and I'll buy one!.... You'd be a very rich man mate....
(That doesn't mean go and put 5 times the amount of powder in a shell to try it!:E)

[Bomb Doctor]

Definitely a turn for the worst R44 Pilot LOL


However.......would have to disagree with the buckshot for doors/hinges - Hatton rounds are the way forward :) Breaching round - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaching_round)

Buckshot lacks the kinetic energy to be truely effective (God I'm such a spotter! Note to self...must stop - now)

[John R81]

I did like 12g Magnum loaded with a single steel ball bearing, myself. Slight issue of over-penetration in some cases.

However the kick was something else.

Shotguns not really my thing, though. I used one of these for Practical Pistol until UK mainland banned all pistols JPP Imports - ET Masters (http://www.jppimports.com/pages/open_gun/et_master/et_masters.html)

Now, launching a 4" clay over the shooter's right sholder, and taking it from the holster with a .38 Super - that was a challenge!

Happy days!

Sigh!!

[The Night Owl]

The 50g Italian RC90's used for Geese can take a bird out of the sky at 100yds easy peasy, not much of a problem around clay shoots of course...

[IFHP]

R 44 sorry I didn't measure out the exact distance:hmm:

[nigelh]

R44 i take it you would be happy to drop your trousers and bend over and let me have a shot at you at 100 yards ??!!! If you can kill a bird ( partridge lets say ) at 80 yards ( 32gram 4 shot ) then i think you would get a pretty sore arse at just 20 yards more !!!

[ianp]

On the golf ball theme, remember many years ago doing a short flying course at Plymouth airport (Roborough) in a Chipmunk. Pinned on the wall in the crewroom was an incident signal which described an ac recovering from a PFL over a golf course that was struck by a golf ball on the rear fuselage leaving a small dent.

[R44-pilot]

Bombdoctor: A hatton round is not a solid slug, Hatton is designed for breaching.
Here ya go taken from another source:
A less damaging ballistic breach needs to destroy either the latch and lock, or the hinges of the door, and the ideal choice for this is the shotgun (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Shotgun). While in theory other firearms (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Firearm) can be used, handguns (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Handgun) are usually underpowered[4] (http://www.pprune.org/#cite_note-3) and rifles (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Rifle) are less effective than the shotgun and pose a far higher risk of ricochet and collateral injury.[3] (http://www.pprune.org/#cite_note-fm7-8-2) Most shotgun ammunition can be used for breaching, though the risk of injury varies with type. Of the available shotgun ammunition, shotgun slugs (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Shotgun_slug) pose the highest risk, as they will retain significant energy to cause lethal wounds well after they have penetrated the door. Buckshot is far safer, and birdshot even safer, as the multiple small projectiles disperse quickly after penetration, reducing the chances of causing a lethal wound.
:p
Check out the new Mossberg and Remington breach barrels. There cool. :ok:

Nigel: I'd be very very impressed if you could drop a Partridge at 80 yards with any number bird shot! I've never seen anyone make a shot like that. And don't know anyone stupid enough to try either, should anyone manage to get a pellet drop on the thing you'd only hurt it, which is awfull.
If, as you so nicely put it, I stand at 100yards while you shoot a shotgun with birdshot at me with a fully closed choke no I wouldn't be that sore, you'd be aiming at such an angle it would come down from around 60-80 degress anyway. Much past 100 yards and it's like throwing sand at someone.
If we're out infront of a gun we stay at 120 yards which is pretty safe.
A federal 546 grain number 4 birdshot has 167 shots in it, meaning each pellet is only 3.2 grain, that gives up it's momentum VERY quickly!
It's not designed for penetration at any range other wise we wouldn't have the now dead bird for tea, it would be in bits....
A number 4 birdshot, shot from 3 yards is not accepted as being able to stop a human....

Your welcome to come down here and have ago on mine and i'll show you some ranges with different cartridges. Mines got a slugster smooth bore 24" fully open choke barrel and it won't take a pigeon vertically past 35yard MAX, and 45 yards from the shoulder to ground targets. 28" barrel choked and you can add another good 5 yards and a tighter spread. 100 yards, not a hope in hell. Pellets are on the deck.

Going back to the thread, the threat pilots face at least in the UK regarding game shooters IMO is minimal really, there on SGC shotguns and only firing birdshot. Only section 1 shotguns are allowed solid slug ammunition and hunters will be taking deer horizontally with these or targets, not firing upward.
You've probably got more chance of a ricochet from a .22lr bullet on your parked aircraft if anyones stupid enough to shoot near it!

[John R81]

I did see a goose taken in mid air at about 60yds

Over Sealand rifle range

With a .303 Lee Enfield, iron sights!

That did cause some trouble, though. Official investigation did not identify the shooter.

[s1lverback]

..Sounds like a confession John R81 :}

[Bomb Doctor]

....A hatton round is not a solid slug....

Hate to disagree R44...... but it's actually a powder compressed into a solid. If it wasn't a solid, it wouldn't be able to effectively dissipate the kinetic energy needed to attack the hinge/lock.

What it is however, is frangiable, meaning it breaks up on impact, but after dissipating the KE - thus making it safer for those sat behind the door.

But, I can guarantee....... it's solid :)

[John R81]

No, but I was present!

[gsa]

A number 4 birdshot, shot from 3 yards is not accepted as being able to stop a human

I've seen a few that, if they could would disagree with that. 6 shot from a Remington auto is a very capable but crude house clearance tool.

[R44-pilot]

A hatton round may be a slug but it is not by any means a 'solid slug'.

A solid slug is a single lead or metal projectile either rifled or smooth.

A slug shot is any shot designed as a single projectile but the term solid slug is defined by the above. Even the home office reconise it as that.
You can have rubber slugs but it's still not a solid slug.

As John R81 has shot, even the older steel single ball's are classed as a solid slug(known as pumpkin balls). Not great accuracy but rifled solid slugs are pretty good through even a smooth bore barrel and incredible through a rifled shotgun barrel.
(By the way, I envy you for being able to compete in practical pistol, missed out on that)!:\ we still have practical shotgun though! :ok: (shooting solid slugs by the way:p)
Would of been amusing to see someone firing a .303 at flying birds!
Good gun, possibly the most uncomfortable thing I personally have ever fired though!


GSA, it probably would stop someone, but being defined by what the FBI class as able to stop a human attacker is another thing. They class that the minimum acceptable penetration should be 12 inches with 18 inches prefered.
Number 4 bid shot only produced 6.5 inch penetration.

Number 4 Birdshot:
Range: 3 yards
Shotgun: 18 inch barreled Remington 870 Marine Magnumn
Round: 12 gauge Remington Heavy Dove 1-1/8 oz #4 Birdshot
Gelatin: 9′x9′x19′ 10% ordinance gelatin block
Measured Average Permenant Cavity: 6.5 inches (16.5 cm)
Temporary Stretch Cavity: 0.0 to 6.0 inches (0.0 to 15.2 cm)

00 Buckshot:
Range: 3 yards
Shotgun: 18 inch barreled Remington 870 Marine Magnumn
Round: 12 gauge 2? Federal Classic 00 Buckshot (9 pellets)
Gelatin: 9′x9′x19′ 10% ordinance gelatin block
Measured Average Permanent Cavity Penetration: 22.3 inches (56.6cm) (3.4X further than #4 birdshot)

Bird shot should never be used for a home defense load, all bird shot loads lack both the momentum and penetration required to reliably stop a human attacker. This really shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone because bird shot is designed for lightweight game, if the pellets were capable of stopping a human it would devastate the small animal and not leave much to eat.
While the intentions of people who recommend bird shot are usually good they usually lack a fundamental understanding of terminal ballistics and unintentionally give horrible advice. They often site examples of bad guys being shot with bird shot breaking off an attack, the important thing to realize is that in almost all cases the attacker chose to stop the attack, he was not forced to stop.

Granted I wouldn't want any shot shot at me from 3 yards but the proof is there. Lots of myths about shotguns, to many Hollywood movies... You see them load a shell in to there shotguns and send someone flying the other side of the room missing limbs, absolute rubbish.

Show me a professional who successfully uses birdshot for human targets.
Bird shot is for birds not humans.
Buck shot is another story mind, this would be the choice in combat. And slug.
In the UK we don't have the same need for shotguns as home defense nor do we own them for that role, but many American gun specialist have looked into home defense loads with very clear results.

Either way, we have allowed the thread to go a bit off topic.
At least in the UK I wouldn't worry about shotgun shooters.
Compton in LA sounds like another story! :}

[Bomb Doctor]

....A hatton round may be a slug but it is not by any means a 'solid slug'....

So is it liquid ?? So....ergo...it must be solid.

A solid slug is a single lead or metal projectile

Doesn't have to be...... There are many different materials used for solid shot - depends on what effect you want or what you're attacking.

I tell you what R44-Pilot....here's a test for you.... Try firing a Hatton round down a fully choked shotgun barrel and I wager the results will tell you if it's solid or not :)

What do I know anyway.....Ammunition Technical Officer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammunition_Technical_Officer) :ugh: LMAO

[Bomb Doctor]

...A number 4 birdshot, shot from 3 yards is not accepted as being able to stop a human....

Says who? and you probably need to define 'stop'!! Also...define 'human'....It would probably stop a toddler....but have less of an effect on a 25 stone crackhead off his head.

It's all in the definition R44-Pilot :)

I'd certainly be stopping if I got a No.4 to the chest from 3yds!! Then again....I'm a lover not a fighter ;)

[R44-pilot]

You say it's all in the definition, which is exactly what i'm trying to tell you...
A solid slug is defined as a single metal shot be it lead, steel or copper, but a single projectile either a round ball or a rifled slug.

A hatton round is steel powder bound in wax so no it's not a solid slug, it's hatton round by definition. It is not a 'solid slug'. :ugh:

So are the Home Office and firearm licencing agencies all wrong then? I should give the UKPSA a call and educate them then...:rolleyes:

There are not many materials used for solid slug, there are various different types of single piece metals used.
There are many different materials used as slug shot yes as I stated, a rubber slug shot is a slug, but not defined as a solid slug etc...

And what would be the problem on shooting a hatton round down a choked barrel?

I'm unsure what to make of your last post.

"Says who",
Says the FBI who put considerable amounts of investigation in such things, which i'm sure filters down to most American Law Enforcements. It says it in my above post which I suggest you re-read. ;)

"Define stop",
To quickly and effectively stop a human attacker permantely. Pretty simple really, not sure where toddlers come in but they certainly have no place on this partiular thread.
You cannot define a human by size as targets faced are all different and ever changing.
Whether the attacker be on 'crack' or not the chosen load is to put lights out on anyone as quickly and effectively as possible.

You say "I'd certainly be stopping if I got a NO.4 to the chest from 3 yards."
Yes as would I, said that in the previous post also... And what it does again say in my previous post: They often site examples of bad guys being shot with bird shot breaking off an attack, the important thing to realize is that in almost all cases the attacker chose to stop the attack, he was not forced to stop.

The attacker chose to stop the attack. This by definition is not what there looking for in a load. Lights out quick and effectively, i.e birdshot.

[Bomb Doctor]

...And what would be the problem on shooting a hatton round down a choked barrel?

LMAO :ok:

Any links to this FBI information??

[R44-pilot]

Good answer to the question that was asked....

Are you suggesting that a slug can't and shouldn't be shot through a choke?

[Sunfish]

We have a Piper Warrior down here with the impression of a slug in its lower engine cowl. Yarra valley winery owners seem not to like aircraft.

[VfrpilotPB/2]

Members of the Shotgun Shooting Fraternity in the UK are NOT allowed to have ammo ie Shotgun Cartridges with 1 slug, to have such ammo you must first hold a fire Arms Certificate.

I once altered two Alphmax 12g Cartridges and fitted each with a single stainless steel ball, crimped in and held with sealing wax, fired from a single barrel BSA with a true cylinder barrel, the target was a Morris 1000 Saloon, at 30yards the ball went straight through the boot, rear seats front seat dash board and exited the bull nose part of the bonnet , when fired from 45 yards the ball was captured by the dashboard,

No 4 game shot at 50 yards didnt penetrate the door panel, but at 20 yards it left a hole like a drunken woodpecker had been at it.
and finally
When I was much younger and during a spell of beating(game bird chasing)for our then prime minister Harold Macmillan whilst he was shooting at Pen-Y-Ghent in North Yorshire, he peppered three of us young beaters with No 5 Game shot at a distance of some 120 yards, it felt like hails stones hitting us, untill we took our Plastic waterproof tops off and found many small holes along with the corresponding shot dropping out from our wool jumpers, to wit the PM once aware of this incident gave us a White Fiver each for the shock he had caused us!

PeterR-B
Vfr

[R44-pilot]

Well not had a responce from Bomb Doctor, another arm chair expert maybe....:rolleyes: I'll leave that one to rest...

I have a question though and to save starting another thread...

Scenario.
You fly into a gun and game type of show (private flight), see a rather nice shotgun or rifle at a very cheap for one day only price, can one transport it back in the helicopter? Or would you need to seek permission from the CAA for such thing?
It's easy enough to remove the bolt etc and one wouldn't need to buy ammunition on the day, just if you saw a bargain and didnt want to pay postage costs...

Just a complete scenario but had me wondering when a couple of heli's turned up at a show last year and been meaning to ask. We didn't fly in for this very reason. (didn't buy anything anyway but you never know).

[s1lverback]

Providing you have a valid shotgun certificate / firearms certificate, you should be able to transport it as if it were secured in the boot of your car.

You would need to have your license with you to make the purchase and the gun's details would be recorded on the license as normal. The dealer would have to complete a transfer document and you a receipt document which then get's faxed to the police authority (not sure if it is just one in the UK or regional).

If in doubt contact your local police authority and ask, but if it were me and I was travelling in the UK, then I would do it.

Taking it overseas is a different matter - Not all carriers have locked storage for firearms.

[Bomb Doctor]

Well not had a responce(sic) from Bomb Doctor, another arm chair expert maybe....:rolleyes:

Sorry old chap - been away skiing.

I am most definitely sitting in an armchair these days... having retired from being an ATO in 2003. Does that make me an armchair expert in ammunition? Some people might say so....... but I was never one to blow their own trumpet.

But - in answer to your question: You can fire SOME solid rounds through SOME authorised chokes...all depends on the type of round/choke & shotgun. Unfortunately you can't fire Hatton type rounds through choked barrels. You'd also be wise to use a nitro proofed shotgun due to the higher pressures associated with these types of round.

[R44-pilot]

Cheers Silverback.
Yes the buying process is all the same it was just the transport of firearms I was wondering about...
I have a lockable hardcase for mine so may give the local firearms dept and CAA a call before the next shows. :ok:


Ahh bomb doctor returns :p

Well I politely disagree that hatton round cannot be fired through a choke...
It's not the forum for such discussions and we have hijacked this thread enough, PM if you want to and I'll disguss it with you there and show you that you can in fact fire a hatton round through a choke, your choice.:ok:

We'll agree to disagree. :)

[s1lverback]

Chaps, if you check out the US firearms forums, you will see suggestion that you can use these rounds with chokes - though I would buy a specific tool for the job.

Taken from one forum:

"This frangible projectile is made of compressed, powdered copper and tin and was developed as an alternative to a battering ram. The door breacher produces an effective means of removing locks and hinges from doors constructed of up to 16 gauge steel, while limiting the projection of hazardous debris and collateral damage on the other side of the door.
To be used with Improved Cylinder, Skeet or Cylinder Bore Chokes.
The breaching round is designed to defeat door locks and hinges. It is fired 4" to 8" from the target. At impact, the metal powder filled projectile cup disintigrates, dissipating its entire energy on the target.
Breaching rounds, often called Disintegrator or Hatton rounds, are designed to destroy door deadbolts, locks and hinges without risking lives by ricocheting or by flying on at lethal speed through the door, as traditional buckshot can. Breaching rounds may be used in a standard combat shotgun or riot shotgun, or in a specialized shotgun."

I won't be using them in my Kreighoff, but may opt for $200 pump action remington with a 'tactical choke' - designed specifically for breaching.

Now all I need is a door to blow the hinges off!:E

Returning to the orginal post...unlikely you will take out a chopper unless it's heading straight for you (closing distance) and you are using a somesort of lethal projectile (not birdshot), such as an RPG or a rifle (to shoot the pilot with) - then it would be deliberate rather than 'missing the pig':}

Do they do a standard rotary cannon fitment for the EC120..or is that considered a 'minor mod'?:p

[R44-pilot]

Exactly as I have been saying all the while Silverback :ugh: I even suggested he looked at breaching barrels which have have a cyclinder choke...

Business MUST be good if pilots are buying Krieghoffs! :eek: What credit-crunch....:p

Here ya go, go and treat yourself to this Action Target's New MATCH Tactical Breach Door™ (http://www.policeone.com/police-products/training/press-releases/99892-Action-Targets-New-MATCH-Tactical-Breach-Door/) Then send me an invite :E

[Dan Reno]

Regarding the thread’s title of “Idiots with shotguns” it should more accurately read, “Killers with shotguns” since someone is actually attempting murder when shooting at a human, regardless of what he/she is riding in. Whether intentional or not is for the court to decide. Or perhaps this shoe would fit better:”Law needed for idiots who fly downrange of gun ranges.” IMHO

Regarding shot sizes; An increasing number of professional bodyguards and private citizens with concealed carry permits are seeing the benefits of having the first pistol round being of a bird or rat shot type. It is aimed into the face of the perp causing an immediate and instinctive "hands to the face" reaction, especially with eye hit(s). With so many criminals wearing body armor these days and the birdshot not traveling too far past the perp causing collateral damage, the increased use of “bird/rat shot” is a smart move for up close, defensive shooting. The follow-up rounds are usually semi-jacketed hollow-points. Related, I understand the Philippine military did studies on this during WW2 on live Jap prisoners but eventually went to solids in their 45s since most of their shooting would be offensive. I personally carry two Glaser Safety slugs in my .357 S&W and ALWAYS practice face shots these days with the remaining 3 rounds being hollow points especially since I’m strictly carrying for defensive reasons.

[s1lverback]

Hi Dan, in the UK there are a lot of private shoots which are not marked and take place on farmland - difficult to avoid until you see them. Generally you are too high for them anyway, but the original post was I think to do with the chances of being hit whilst on approach to land, by folk who were poor shots and might hit you by accident.

Military ranges (danger zones) are marked, have controlling agencies and are NOTAM'd.

It then developed in to what they would need to use in terms of ballistics in a shotgun to cause damage - then went off on a ballistics tangent - still interesting though to those of us who shoot.

In the UK (as civilians) gun laws are very strict and we are not allowed to carry fire-arms nor use anything larger than .22 live rounds on ranges unless we are using black powder pistols.
I love going over to the US for flying (PA) and while there our hosts always take us for sporting clays and target shooting with rifles/pistols.

Blue skies all
-Dee

[Dan Reno]

10-4 s1lverback.

Have your Best New Year yet !

[Bomb Doctor]

....nor use anything larger than .22 live rounds on ranges unless we are using black powder pistols.....

Would have to disagree there a little....

[heliprof]

i still fly choppers occaisionally out of CPM, found a 22 bullet on the ramp.
no hit`s so far - my chief has a good connection to LAPD :ouch:

[Bob the Doc]

Sywell Airport in Northamptonshire has a shooting ground pretty much on its Northern edge. Not heard any reports of people picking up stray shot. The range is oriented such that the majority of shooting is towards the airfield (although there are high earth banks all round). Nothing larger than no 6 shot is permitted on the range and few people shoot anything larger than 7 or 7.5 anyway. All disciplines are available including ABT/DTL and sporting layouts (including a high tower). I'm sure if it were considered a risk then there would be an avoid on the site but no such advice exists to my knowledge.

I believe in UK law, any cartridge containing fewer than 3 or 4 projectiles counts as a Firearm (Class 1) rather than a Shotgun (Class 2) round and as such, the class 1 licence would be required

[nigelh]

i am not aware of any limit on calibre you can use in the Uk.!!

[MightyGem]

I think that you may mean this, Bob:
Another type of gun that is considered a ‘Section 1’ firearm is any shotgun with a barrel shorter than 24” or a semi-auto or pump-action gun with the capacity to hold more than two shells in the magazine
ie the number of cartridges in the magazine, rather than the projectiles in the cartridge. Then again, maybe both.

from:
Firearms law (http://www.sportingshooter.co.uk/guns-and-shooting/useful-stuff/firearms-law)

[Bob the Doc]

From a police firearms friend of mine, any cartridge with a small number of pellets in it (3 or 4 from memory) essentially counts as a bullet and so you need a firearms licence and not a shotgun one to own them. You are right about the mag in a semi or pump. should be limited to 3 shells (including the one up the spout). No limit on calibre as far as I know but don't know of many using anything bigger than a 10-bore most of the time. The standard 'elephant gun' used to be a 4-bore but that was using black powder. You could probably down an elephant with a smaller bore and a slug round now, especially the rifled ones.

The numbers I was quoting in the other post are the shot sizes rather than the bore size. Most people use number 7 to 9 shot for clays. 6 or 5 for larger birds and bigger than that for the really big buggers. My clay instructor told me that a rifled slug round fired from a 12 bore has a range of 300 yards. Sounds eminently feasible to me