Herk SAR?

[Finnpog]

Reading through the threads this week WRT the deletion of the Nimrod someone said / typed that the Hercules could undertake some of the long range SAR elements.

Now, I am not so blind to think that there are a cupboard full of C-130s just sat around in RAF colours to be tasked to this. However, a photo-thread today on UKAR showed a C-130 in USCG colours.

AFAIR the US Coasties have been using the Herk for many years, so I am asking an honest question.

Could the Herc provide a good long range SAR asset? What percentage of the Nimrod's capability would it provide for this role? (I did like the Snoopy / MAD Boom comments)

[Blighter Pilot]

Try nil.:mad:

[davejb]

'Nil' is a bit harsh -
say 10% as good?

[Biggus]

Wrong.....

I believe the Herc has a homer system to allow a search for beacons operating on 243, i.e standard UK military system, so eletronic search capabilities of the two aircraft would be similar. The current Herc radar is good enough to find smallish contacts, fishing boats etc, but will undoubtably not be as capable in a maritime environment as a Nimrod's. Herc will have greater endurance than a Nimrod, although, given its slower speed, that does not necessarily mean a greater patrol radius. Herc can fly slower in the search, giving more time for a pair of eyes to scan the same area of sea. Herc can drop a SAR package but probably won't carry the number of dingies a dedicated SAR Nimrod would have available. Nimrod has more extensive maritime comms and a crew compliment to run several intensive radio nets simultaneously. Nimrod has more comfortable positions for carrying out visual seach procedures....

So, the Herc can do a capable electronic/visual search in a SAR incident, especially given a well trained crew. It will be nowhere near as capable as a Nimrod in a large scale, command and control type incident, such as a repeat of the Piper Alpha. However, to write off a Hercs capabilities in SAR as nil is incorrect, as has been demonstrated before in the South Atlantic.

[Razor61]

On all three of the long range rescues done by the USAFE in recent years using their MH53, MH-60 and MC-130 Combat Shadows, the Nimrod was always on scene first and providing communications support for all the assets combined relaying it to the ARCC.
I'm sure the USCG HC-130's are very capable at their job otherwise they wouldn't use them for the SAR role but surely it wouldn't be too hard to modify a few C-130J's at Lyneham to be capable SAR cover?

[sycamore]

So,if you were sat in your little orange dinghy ,BP,you wouldn`t like to see Albert come chugging over the horizon,drop a few smokefloats,and then a luxurious 10 seater ,with tv and internet,even a blow-up doll to keep you company.Admittedly the radar is probably not as good,it isn`t as fast,it can stay up as long as you want,with AAR, the hold is full of food,can drop a lifeboat,or two,even drop some nice hairy Marines who will know how to keep you warm,and a tin of Vaseline,so you don`t get `happy-rash`...
So,BP, think again before you press `submit`....

[davejb]

Searchwater can find contacts significantly smaller than fishing boats, and what matters is the range that can be done at - if your detection range is greater then the legs of your search pattern can be further apart and you will cover a greater area in the same period of time.... coupled with a higher speed I would expect that to translate into a significant difference in surface search capability. Although visual lookout is useful for finalising an exact position (and there are rather more windows, 3 'goldfish bowls' specifically designed for eyeballing seagulls from, on Norman) it's cock all use for actually finding things unless you get really lucky.

The Herc will be far better than nothing, but looking back over quite a lot of SAR flying, ie the actual job done on a callout, the majority seeemed to come in three flavours:

1) Small boat/Lone yachtsman etc lost and discovering a previously unnoticed jacuzzi downstairs, which often involved the Nimrod doing a quick search to locate the nearest surface vessel to conn onto the 'sinkee' to assist.

2) EU fisherman in need of NHS operation to be winched from far SW, Nimrod to provide top cover for helo op at long range - requiring minimum delay finding vessel, conn helo on, provide SAR cover for helo operating outside its comfort zone.

3) Major epic, Piper Alpha type of event - rare, but the C+C from the Nimrod could involve controlling numerous helo and surface vessels, coordinating search areas etc whilst simultaneously handling lots of comms. (Including safety reports from the rescue craft themselves). That kept everyone busy, and the large Nav area was a godsend, I would suggest. It's not about comfort, it's about having a fairly large number of specialists and room to work.

Obviously the Herk can do a search, it can also drop stuff like dinghies, so 'zero' isn't really the case and I doubt BP seriously thinks that - but for capability, for actually doing the job, it is a long long way from as well fitted for the job as the Nimrod.

[Gainesy]

Comparing a "standard" RAF transport Herc with the Hercs operated by the US Coast Guard is apples and cobblestones.

The USCG Hercs (and the Talon package, but with bad guys possibly involved) were designed and equipped for SAR /CSAR respectively and very little else.

So if its a "real" SAR Herc coming to find you, just wait an hour longer before you switch on SARAH or whatever you call it this week, PLB, ELB, annoying beepy thing on Guard?

And the Herc can carry and drop a lot more Lindholme gear than a Nimrod. Even chuck you a boat maybe.

Hmm, could we fit a bunch of side-firing artillery too? Not everyone needs hoying out of the Oggin.

Another route is keep the Nimrods.

[StopStart]

The Herc can drop as many ASRA kits as you can fit in the freight bay. The radar is pretty good at picking up surface contacts (to the trained eye) and has the capability to handle multiple comms including Marine and Satcom and has homing capabilities. Its also got the range and endurance (incl AAR) to provide on scene cover & comms for a good length of time.

Notwithstanding the fact that we'd all rather stick pins in our eyes than do SAR standby, the Herc is more than capable enough to do the task albeit obviously not as well as a dedicated kipperesque maritime asset. If you don't have one of those then it's the next best thing in our otherwise empty "golf bag".

Have we got the aircraft? Perhaps - it sounds like a job for the Mk3 slicks of 70 Sqn if you ask me. Form an orderly queue fellas! I'd reckon BP would be the man for the job! ;)

:ok:

[Biggus]

davejb

Reference the second of your typical incidents. The fishing vessel in question has GPS these days, as does the rescue helo. Therefore the requirement to "find" the vessel, and to "conn" the helo on have largely disappeared. It is almost a case of "nice to have" rather than essential.

With regard to some of your general comments in respect of radar performance, search sweep width, etc. The object of your search either has some form of "comms" with the outside world or not. If they do have a voice link, in this day and age they will almost certainly have a GPS position, and can tell you exactly where they are. Alternatively they will have a rescue beacon you can use to locate them.

If there are no electronic signals (voice or beacon) from them, you might well elect to commence a radar search (base on possibilities of damaged vessel still afloat/wreckage/loss of power for radios). However, how do you know this is the case? With lack of electronic signals the worse case scenario is that they are now in the water (in a dingy or not), in which case the search pattern to adopt would be a visual one. It would be no good adopting a sweep width of say 10nm based on radar performance if you are actually looking for a dingy with a visual detection range of 1nm. Obviously you would investigate radar contacts as you conducted a visual search.

Therefore, a SAR search based on radar performance of the aircraft is not likely. Either the object of the search has some form of electronic comms which the searcher can use, or you can only assume the worst and act accordingly.

[Hawksridge]

Biggus

You say "The fishing vessel in question has GPS these days, as does the rescue helo. Therefore the requirement to "find" the vessel, and to "conn" the helo on have largely disappeared. It is almost a case of "nice to have" rather than essential".

I disagree. The system you describe works well if the crew of the vessel in question speak the same language as the helo crew - English, in this case - and is able to quickly relay that position to the helo. Unfortunately, it sometimes proves extremely difficult to communicate in a common language with our non-fluent EU colleagues and comms can be relayed via several sources/translations before actually ending up with the crew of the helo. therefore, any GPS position passed to the helo crew via a remote (foregin) MRCC, etc, is only as accurate as the last time it was updated. So picture the scene when the rescue helo pitches up, in fog or at night, at extreme range with only 20 minutes fuel on scene and the vessel in question is not there. The crew then waste valuable time swanning round trying to locate said vessel, and even 10 miles between last GPS update and actual position can lead to considerable delays in location. In this case, the ability of another airborne asset to "find and conn" is invaluable and hardly a "nice to have".

[Biggus]

"....largely....."

"....almost...."

Your experience may be different, and I don't dispute it. I described my personal experience in this particular area.

[Nanook10]

The Canadian Forces have been using the C-130 for SAR (long range and otherwise) for 35 plus years. Not once did I hear of the need to replace them with the Nimrod, so it must be somewhat capable.....;)

[mr ripley]

Hercs have been based in the South Atlantic for 26 years and have been tasked with Maritime Radar Reconnaissance and Search and Rescue. Amongst the many crews who have detached, there will be experience in davejb scenarios 1 and 2.

In 1993 there was a little publicised SAR incident involving a Russian merchant ship that sunk halfway (I believe) between Tristan de Chuna and FI. The rescue effort required multiple sorties at long range in difficult weather and pre-GPS. The effort required AAR, dropping of dinghies to pockets of survivors and 'conning' a nearby ship to the scene.

I am sure the Herc is not as capable as the Nimrod in some aspects. However the crews and aircraft are not the lame duck that other have alluded to.

For scenario 3, how about E3?

[covec]

Time to tender out to civilian operators perhaps?

Air Atlantic? GAMA? Highland? Directflight? A.N. Other?

The IAC CASA flies out a fair way over the Atlantic on two turbines.....

[aeroid]

I guess you youngsters weren't around when a 48Sqn Changi based Herc used to carry out SAR duties based at GAN or when a 242OCU crew won a SAR trophy in Cyprus in the late'70s.

[SASless]

The USCG, another small SAR outfit, flies both C-130's and CASA 225's (HU-144) aircraft in the SAR role.

[RileyDove]

Whilst it is indeed a useful aircraft I cannot help but think that it's a waste of resources when something like a 146 with mods could do it cheaper .

[trap one]

Not a player for the E3D, yes the radio fit is VHF but does not cover down to the Maritime band unless a mod is paid for and sitting on SAR alert is no going to be popular with the Engineers. With limited frames and other tasking to of various priorities a conflict that would have to be resolved at very high level.

[Blighter Pilot]

Oh dear - lots of people posting with no real idea about how short of C130s the RAF is and how ineffective at Long Range SAR the fleet really is.

C130Js - all a bit busy at the moment. No external tanks so limited endurance. ASRA kit awaiting final release to service.

C130Ks - no airframes at all. 2 ASRA kits left in service. Good range and endurance but painfully slow - would you want to be at 30 West waiting for a frame from LYE? Weather radar average, comms relay and SAR top cover ability - limited at best. Crappy SAR homer and no 406 facility.


Have we got the aircraft? Perhaps - it sounds like a job for the Mk3 slicks of 70 Sqn if you ask me. Form an orderly queue fellas! I'd reckon BP would be the man for the job! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif



The boys have been in MPA for the last 6 years - MRR primary role with SAR standby only, 1312 Flt are well aware of the limitations of C130 SAR.
The C130J boys are in for a treat - no low flying, no AR due to VC10 fatigue limitations, no drops and constant SAR standby duties - enjoy.
The 'slicks' you refer too will all be retired by Jul 10 - so no airframes anyway.

And as I've done 3 long range SAR jobs and dropped ASRA for real I can tell you it's not easy, the C130K isn't a suitable platform and the kit we drop (if we can find you) isn't great.

Unfortunatley Stoppers, if you keep saying we can with platforms we shouldn't then the capability gaps just get bigger.:ok:

[StopStart]

I'm certainly not suggesting that the Herc is an uber SAR platform, far from it. I am however suggesting that now (soon) the Grimrod is no longer available we don't have m/any other options available to us, that's all. I too have had the deep and neverending joy of doing long range SAR off the Falklands several times so am well aware of how limited our capabilities are. I would suggest however that something must be better than nothing (we have asra drop clearance btw).

Me saying that "we can" on t'internet will have absolutely no impact on anything, including (but not limited to) the price of fish. If UK PLC has a requirement to provide long(ish) range SAR cover then it's up to them to sort it out. The Nimrod fleet is crippled and, following H-C, could never viably regenerate (certainly in this economic climate) simply to be scrapped as MRA4 arrives. If they want an interim SAR cover from the Herc then it's up to them to decide how they manage their assets.

Ultimately I reckon Mr Fishing Boat would rather know there was something that might find him out looking for him than having nothing that definitely wouldn't find him...

:ok:

PS. As for airframe availability, we all know how short of airframes we are but one has to wonder how we only manage to generate a third of the fleet (J) as serviceable/deployed at any one time. Perhaps if the eng lines were properly manned we'd be able to generate more aircraft.... If only there were lots of ME engineers soon to be looking for jobs :rolleyes:

[Mad_Mark]

Everyone keeps harping on about what other aircraft could be used for SAR. However, the MR2 does not only do SAR, it does many other jobs too - more than most of you know! What other aircraft types will be taking on these roles? How many different aircraft types will be needed to fulfill the role of just one MR2?

So we have...

C130 covering SAR - with limited SAR ability and only when there are frames available.

Merlin covering ASW - with limited range and endurance, just for starters :ok:

ASUW? MCT? HMRC? SF?

I can not believe that an island nation is really doing this to its MPA capability :eek:

MadMark!!! :mad:

[StopStart]

Coz the thread title is "Herk SAR?" :hmm:

Don't fool yourself into thinking that esoteric tasking is the preserve of the grimrod...

[Blighter Pilot]

PS. As for airframe availability, we all know how short of airframes we are but one has to wonder how we only manage to generate a third of the fleet (J) as serviceable/deployed at any one time. Perhaps if the eng lines were properly manned we'd be able to generate more aircraft.... If only there were lots of ME engineers soon to be looking for jobs :rolleyes:


Stoppers - you're right. Maybe we could generate more airframes if we had the engineers!

As for 'Herk SAR' - we could always stop the ageing Ks doing anything else and put them into the low fatigue SAR cover role for the next 3 years.

Buy some more ASRA kits and train the remaining crews in AR/drop procedures.

Might just fill the gap until MRA4:ok:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Or perhaps we should bite the bullet and retire the K model now. Throw as many of the K pilots and ALM's into the J training pot as it can handle and divert all of Lynehams engineering assets at J model generation. Not a populist suggestion and certainly not a J v K thing but something that possibly needs to be considered.

[davejb]

I admire the tenacity of those defending the UK C130 in SAR role - I think you are quite wrong to imagine it can come even close to a Nimrod's ability in that role, but can understand the desire to defend one's fleet. I would much rather see a C130 overhead throwing anything that floated* down to me, were I in the oggin, rather than pass my remaining time counting seagulls. I would, however, be far more confident were I to spot a Nimrod quartering the sea for my dinghy than a C130.

Somebody mentioned a C130 winning a SAR competition? I seem to recall they did that every year - wasn't there an annual SAR competition called the Lord trophy (after the Dak pilot at Arnhem) that the kipper fleet weren't invited to contest? Didn't see many C130's at the Airde-Whyte or Fincastle, so I guess that makes us even...

Dave

*Blow up dolls, Lilos, Rubber rings...the possibilities are endless

[threeputt]

The Lord trophy or "Ex Thread" was, when I was stationed at Lyneham in the late 60's early 70's, a para dropping comp held in the Med and the Hercs were based in Malta. I couldn't comment on whether or not it had an SAR element to it

3P:ok:

[Top Bunk Tester]

Just to expand a little on Mr ripley's post #14 WRT the SA SAR mission.

The duty Q crew were 'scrambled' at approx 0700 on 17 Sept 1993 and XV213 got airborne a short time later after the tanks, inc the internal fuselage had been fully topped off. Almost as an afterthought the see off crew were grabbed from the pan to act as observers as the a/c was about to taxi. Observer seats were fitted in the para stations and 1 ASRA kit on board along with the usual Marine Markers and smokes, unfortunately there was no time load any rations. All the crew knew was that a mayday had been rx'd from a Russion cargo ship and that the cargo had shifted in heavy seas. The only location known was a point about 400 miles south of Tristan Da Cuhna, halfway between Capetown and MPA. The transit out was uneventful. No beacons were being rx'd. As the Herc approached the last known position it dropped down to a suitable height to begin a search pattern. Almost immediately after dropping through the clag one of the hastely grabbed, non trained, observers called a sighting and it turned out to be an empty liferaft. But at least the area was right. More wreckage was spotted over the next hour or so and it was found that the height had to be reduced significantly in order to spot anything. After following a fuel slick, bodies began to be spotted sporadically. Eventually a group of survivors was spotted clinging to wreckage. An ASRA drop was carried out but failed to inflate on impact. It was a perfectly positioned drop. Not long after that the crew hit bingo fuel and began the long transit back to MPA. At this point most of the nav kit began to fail and the a/c routed back using the sextant/nav's pencil. MPA was a VERY welcome sight. Let's just say the a/c took off at MOS and landed extremely light. On landing the crew brief the next crew and they flew another sortie, with AAR and rations. They had a longer period on top and dropped Sub Smash kit and possibly another ASRA. The conclusion was that two of the ships crew were picked up by the ship routed to assist but one was lost crossed decking from the raft to the ship. Still one survivor is better than none.

How do I know all this? I was sitting in the center seat all the way there and back on that first sortie. My logbook reads 10:40 day and 4:00 night. I believe it was a record for for a none AAR sortie in a Herc, unless anyone knows better, of course.

[retrosgone]

I well remember being attached to the 24 Sqn Lord Trophy crew in Akrotiri in (I think) 1979. This was indeed mainly a SAR competition for the Herc Sqns and the OCU, as well as an engineering competition between the Lynham Line Sqns. There was both an overland and a maritime element to it, and the fun part was sitting at the para doors chucking out smoke floats and Lindholme Gear (which as far as I know was the same as the ASR kits held in the Nimrod bomb bay).

Having flown the Nimrod for many years later in life, I can certainly confirm that there is no real comparison between the capabilities of the two types in the maritime SAR role - but something is better than nothing!

It seems that no-one from the press has asked the MOD any difficult questions on this topic as yet, while the Chiefs and the Ministers are just hoping against hope that nothing bad will happen at sea for the next few years, or that they will have moved on and it will be someone else's problem when a catastrophe occurs.

A "capability gap" is a euphemism for "We haven't any cash and we can't afford to do some of the jobs that are vital to the Nation's security"

[Biggus]

davejb

First of all I am not interested in starting a pissing contest.

As you surmise, most of the people posting on here regarding the Herc's abilities in the SAR role appear to be present or ex Herc operators. All they have been trying to do is inform with regard to its abilities in that role. Indeed they have often stated what it cannot do as well as what it can. None of them (including myself) have, to the best of my knowledge, either had a go at the Nimrods abilities, or said they can do SAR better. They have just been trying to educate/inform.

Since you appear to be based in Forres, you are undoubtedly a current/ex Nimrod man, and no doubt have a firm grasp of its abilities. But have you ever operated the Herc? Nobody has doubted your comments on the Nimrods abilities, so why do you seem (note careful use of the word "seem") to doubt the comments from the Herc fraternity, and see it as defending ones fleet rather than just telling it as it is?

Nobody in the Herc world is clamouring to take over the SAR role from the Nimrod fleet, believe me....

Once again, I am not attempting to start a pissing contest, or flame, just a genuine question?

[vecvechookattack]

ASUW? MCT? HMRC? SF?

It would be nice to see a Nimrod conducting MCT....not sure they have the capability (or the desire)
http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/uksrr_irl-4.jpg



The MoD has responsibility for providing SAR facilities for military
operations, exercises and training within the UK and, by agreement,
exercises responsibility for the co-ordination of civil aeronautical SAR on
behalf of the DfT. Where the coverage provided by military SAR assets
meets the civil SAR coverage requirements, they will be made available for
civil maritime and land-based SAR operations. The high readiness SAR
assets are SAR helicopters, maritime surveillance fixed wing aircraft and
mountain rescue teams. The MoD also establishes and maintains an
Aeronautical Rescue Co-ordination Centre (ARCC) for the operation and
co-ordination of civil and military aeronautical SAR assets.

[Phoney Tony]

The gap left is not just one of being able to search for survivors and drop ASR kit. I am sure the C-130 can do that. It is the SAR coordination that is often the more important capability that is needed. This requires a good maritime picture and communications (Including marine VHF FM). I can think of many major SAR incidents, Piper Alpha, Fastnet Disaster and the India 747 SW of Ireland are but a few where the Nimrod crews provided this type of vital support.

[davejb]

Biggus,
I am not trying to conduct a pi$$ing contest either - had the capability gap been the other way, with Nimrods being used to provide tactical transport as the C130 fleet was gapped, I'd have been posting to say that was mince also.

I do, as you surmise, know the capabilities of the MR2, my experience of C130 amounts to a few sorties over the years where I've been self loading freight, and frankly it looked a bit squalid to me. The toilet facilities on the Nimrod were grim enough should the Benghazi trots hit (as I recall they once did, not for me, thank heavens) but the C130 seemed to involve a trough and a willingness to open the back door and throw the terminally afflicted out from umpty ump feet. I'd still be a bit surprised to find that the big garage at the back has been filled with all sorts of uber kit while I wasn't looking however. I remember one chap grabbing for a hand hold and the aircraft banked...it all seemed so, I don't know, unfinished?

Visual:
I can't help but think that a 13 man crew looking out of flight deck, three goldfish bowl windows, plus spare 'normal' windows (anyone not working radios or sensors) is going to see rather more than a C130 crew - C130 visual lookout is pants in comparison, unless you've carved some extra holes since the gapping was announced. I don't think I'd lean out of that big door at the back too far to see sideways...although the view downwards is probably pretty good. (Especially if you look sideways from the big door at the back a little too vigorously).

SARBE homers - no problem there, I don't doubt the herc homer is every bit as good as the Nimrod's, I do know I wouldn't like to rely on it to home anyone to my dinghy in less than a fortnight.

C+C in a major incident - unless C130's load some sort of special pallet full of control stations then Nimrod's TAC area wins hands down. Radios - not just about having them, it's the ability to use them - a Nimrod crew has 5 fully trained radio operators (ok, 4 plus the AEO, but they get shirty if not included), who spend a LOT of time training for SAR incidents (it's a pass/fail item on CAT checks) and three officers in a tac area custom made for controlling other assets... backed up by some of the siggies on occasion.

Radar: Nimrods have a fully trained, highly experienced operator with (probably) several thousand flying hours working the radar, rotating operators to maintain efficiency - sometimes a second operator will be over the radar op's shoulder, making sure things aren't missed. Will the C130 have a trained radar operator working the kit? I will bet you anything you like that Searchwater is a far more capable surface search radar than - well, any other radar you care to name, actually. It will find small things a very long way away - I have no desire to outline sensor performance, but you are betting against 4 aces.

Crew:
I don't doubt for a moment that, given the job to do, everyone on the herc fleet could do just as well as the Nimrod guys given the same equipment and the same time to train, but to suggest that the 130 guys can just slot into a place oocupied by people who are fully trained in the field, working equipment ideally suited to the role, is silly. I mean that - I'll go further, brit aircrew are damn good whether they're light blue, dark blue, or green, and such highly motivated and well educated people will do a good job given half a chance in any circumstance - but nobody is going to just pick up a role in no time flat and be anywhere near as good in it as people who have been doing it for decades.... and a lot of people on the kipper fleet regard retiring at the 22 year point as 'part timers'. Mick Muttitt had, I think, 19,000 flying hours in as a siggie when he retired (and allegedly started getting younger again - rumour has it that there's a painting of him in handbrake house that makes him look 97+ and ages daily). How can you replace that sort of experience overnight?

The current RAF have very few platforms that can do each others jobs to anything approaching the same degree of ability - it's pretty much the same across all three services - a gap of this nature means a significant reduction in coverage of that role, and I'd argue that should our political leadership decide to gap any of the overworked platforms now holding UK PLC together on the defence front.

It's not about a pi$$ing contest, it's simply that the Nimrod is designed for ASW/ASUW which conveniently makes it very good at SAR, a herc is designed as a transport aircraft and SAR is very much a secondary role (unless we're talking special fit, tasked for SAR primary, 130's). Nimrod crews would be crepe at delivering freight. Just as they would be lousy at dunking, which is why God made RN helos.

Happy Christmas :)

[Finnpog]

I wasn't trying to start a wee weeing contest when I started this thread.
The Nimrod fleet has been rogered by (Delete as you see fit) DefSec; MOD; RAF.

I imagine that the reason is primarly financial, with a hefty dollop of fear - that is to say that another catastrophy would be terminally embarrassing to this at the top - so the easy way out is to trash the fleet.

Faced with that decision as a given - however crass it seems, what possible options are there left to provide some kind of cover for the lost capabilities?

Sticking plaster SAR. Forget ASuW unless a couple of AGM 84s can be grafted onto something (I remember the Sidewinder equipped Nimrods). ASW???

C&C - If the Sentry isn't capable, then someone must have missed a trick (or believed that the Nimrod would be around for ever).

I wonder if there will be a junket / research mission to the USCG to see how they do things? Has anyone done an exchange with them?

[davejb]

Sentry/C+C,
yes, you'd rather hope they could do that wouldn't you? Unfortunately it's back to whether we had the airframes available for the role, given that SAR involved having a Nimrod sitting preflighted on the pan 24/7/365. Same problem for C130's I'd have thought - I think I read somewhere the other day that 9 MRA4's were going to replace 15 MR2's, which is perhaps the case now but there were rather more of them originally! (The MR1 fleet probably outnumbers the current RAF). Platforms that aren't exactly plentiful being asked to do somebody else's job as well as their own.... can you imagine ity in civvy street? I say Boggs, whenever you aren't too busy delivering the mail would you mind putting out any fires you happen across?

Personally I think the replacement SAR aircraft for the Nimrod needs to be something that is largely designed with SAR in mind - that might be a BN Islander with extra gun turrets for all I know, but I suspect it won't be any cheaper in the medium term, never mind the long run.

:)

[StopStart]

At the risk of boring myself let alone anyone else trawling through this may I please reiterate that I am in no way "defending" or promoting the Herc SAR role/capability. A quick psychic straw poll conducted on all Lyneham personnel just now revealed that 117.4% of us have absolutely no desire or interest in being involved in UK SAR standby and all that that includes. Common sense would seem to dictate that the big 4 jet designed to specifically to do all that gubbins is best suited to, er, doing it.

Meanwhile, back on planet Earth....

The clever SAR capable 'plane is no longer available due to a combination of us having no money and the planes being knackered. If we accept that that is now a given then we must look elsewhere to plug the gap until the MRA4 arrives. Without buying new aircraft, please now form a list of vaguely suitable RAF/RN aircraft types that might be able to fill in in some capacity. I'll start you off:

C130
Merlin

[fergineer]

So well put young Dave......well you were young when I was flying with you!!!! Having flown both types in the SAR role, the mighty hunter out of Kinloss and the C130 out of MPA I hear what you are saying, I also hear what the others are saying too.....They know they cannot fulfill the role of the Nimrod and dont really want to try it let alone be good at it. Them guys are flying their butts off and can just imagine the responce when arriving back from in theatre ops to be told oh you are now on SAR standby as everyone else is busy. To hold that and QRA would be just too much and what role would the aircraft be kept in SAR and QRA would not be compatible so that would involve the role equipers as well. lets not get involved in a bun fight, we are all on the same side and we all must just wonder at the decisions being made up top......maybe a few of our leaders resigning may help but knowing how the UK Gov work they would probably applaud. Keep on writing, someone may read and realise how wrong they can be.well it is Xmas anything can happen.
Fly safe all you guys that are still flying and have fun when you are not. P3's look after me down here and we send our Coastguard out when we need to in their rubber boats as long as they are within 38 miles for my local unit.
Regards to all
Fergi

[spaniels ears]

Herk sar? Simple answer - no! There aren't any spare.

[Mad_Mark]

VecVecPrickTalks****...

It would be nice to see a Nimrod conducting MCT....not sure they have the capability (or the desire)

You either do not know what I mean by MCT or you are a total troll - I'll put my money on both.

One day you will astound the PPruNe community by actually typing something that isn't total bollox - but I won't hold my breath :rolleyes:

MadMark!!! :mad:

[vecvechookattack]

The Nimrod fleet has been rogered by (Delete as you see fit) DefSec; MOD; RAF.

Delete DefSec..... He didn't do it. He merely read the statement out.

Delete MOD........ They didn't do it....they merely went on advice given

That leaves RAF..... The suggested it, they offered it.


MM...Having spent a great deal of time conducting MCT I can count on one hand,.... nope...make that 2 fingers, the times when a Nimrod saw fit to get involved....and during one of those times they completely buggered it up to such a degree that the AFAC told them to RTB before they caused an accident.

[camelspyyder]

no bites yet then????

[davejb]

Happy Christmas Ferg,
or is it Prawnmas over there? (Must be like a 1980's Nimrod convention on most of the colonial squadrons these days - is Dick Hardeman still trying to do ESM on the sono kit I wonder?)

MCT - got me puzzled, I can only imagine the acronym means different things to different people, and I doubt anyone from the kipper fleet is going to explain our version.

Still, life would be boring if we all agreed...

[Madbob]

Would a FJ sqn cdr/flt cdr/staish be allowed to refuse to deploy ac (say to the Falklands/Red Flag/Grn Flag or whatever) if there wasn't adequate long range SAR cover for all legs?

I'm not talking wartime ops, just routine deployments or whatever. This would apply especially to Harriers (only one donk) and if it was me I wouldn't be very happy with a Command policy which sanctioned such a deployment.:=

MB

[Father Jack Hackett]

I thought that these days we were placing more emphasis on sensors/payload than platforms. To that end, why not a c-130j with a palletised comms/rebro station in the boot, a few extra aerials scabbed on the aircraft and a cadre of suitably qualified AEOps seconded from the kipper fleet. If you're really feeling flush, you could pay for a few tweaks to the radar software (as fitted to block 40 F-16s after all). Add a few air-droppable ASR packs along the lines of whatever the USCG have and external tanks and you're starting to look at a fairly healthy capability.

We're not talking about a fleet-wide mod here, just a few a/c (Mk 5s?). Although the fleet is heavily committed on ops, we still have some a/c in the UK for training and this is meant to be a contingency role after all.

I'll not open another can of worms and mention the fact the mighty J has hard-points and a 1553 databus that could support a brace of Harpoons..... ASuW anybody?

[Kolibear]

Think you need one of these:-

SAR (http://www.raf.mod.uk/downloads/wallpapers/1944/sunderlandv800.jpg)

[Finnpog]

Beautiful,

But this would be better

http://www.aviation-history.com/martin/p6m.html (http://SeaMaster%7Chttp://www.aviation-history.com/martin/p6m.html)

Edit for the link

[RumPunch]

Im no Herc expert but many of my freinds tell me the C130J cannot have external fuel tanks, if thats the case what duration could you expect from a Herc on SAR.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

As of April I would suggest a little bit more than that of a Nimrod :p

[StopStart]

Father Jack. Given that we couldn't find our arse in the bath with both hands wrt to current ops and kit requirements, the idea of swinging missiles off the wings and filling the freightbay with AEOps is, of course, bonkers. :ok:

Rumpunch - just like your good self, your freinds (sic) are not experts either. The J can and in places does have externals.

[OmegaV6]

Rumpunch ...


Look here .. :)


http://norway.usembassy.gov/uploads/TI/9w/TI9wFBcM7v89ZOQ7kV2vIw/herkules_500px.jpg

This one uses the "hard point" on the outer wing as well.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd80/cenciotti/C-130%20crash/CRW_9388.jpg

[ZH875]

Im no Herc expert but many of my freinds tell me the C130J cannot have external fuel tanks, if thats the case what duration could you expect from a Herc on SAR.

The aircraft can carry a maximum internal fuel load of 45,900lb. An additional 18,700lb of fuel can be carried in external underwing fuel tanks. The refuelling probe installed on the centre of the fuselage has been relocated on the C-130J to the port side, over the cockpit.

Source (http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/hercules/)

How long would you like it to remain airborne?

Fuel is not the problem, it's the number of pies for the microwave it can carry.:ok:

[RumPunch]

Thanks

I just wanted to make sure before I say my farewells to the a jet I have spent most of my life on I know the facts of its replacement. All I remember of the Herc fleet was Aircrew that cooked meals while us dross down the back end suffered the crap pasties and warm water if you were lucky, at least of you flew Nim"air" you were treated to at least a starter, hot meal and some cakes, washed down with more tea and coffee you could shake a stick at , even the days with DCS and tabbing down the rear end was a novelty.

Least money can be saved now without the need for inflight rations :E

[Climebear]

Of course, for the Nimrod force DCS meant nothing more sinister than Dairy Cream Sponge:}

[vecvechookattack]

Would a FJ sqn cdr/flt cdr/staish be allowed to refuse to deploy ac (say to the Falklands/Red Flag/Grn Flag or whatever) if there wasn't adequate long range SAR cover for all legs?

I'm not talking wartime ops, just routine deployments or whatever. This would apply especially to Harriers (only one donk) and if it was me I wouldn't be very happy with a Command policy which sanctioned such a deployment.

MB

Blimey. Next you will be suggesting that aircraft don't fly unless there is a diversion available.

[Father Jack Hackett]

Stoppers:

Totally agree wrt hanging missiles off the wings, just being facetious!;)

However, I'm serious about the portakabin / AEOp / extra radios idea. The Yanks have roll-on fits for the more esoteric Herk roles, i.e. Compass Call so it's doable. If this govt or the next is serious about maintaining the capabilities of a civilized, first-world, maritime nation then they need to do something meaningful to bridge the gap.

But putting my pragmatic head on, you're probably right about our arse-seeking capabilities.....

Hope you're keeping your head down fella.

FJH

[davejb]

Of course, for the Nimrod force DCS meant nothing more sinister than Dairy Cream Spongehttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

Plenty of sinister wrt DCS on Nimrods: if you weren't in the galley at the right time you couldn't be sure how many DCS there were, how big the slices might be, which copilot had fallen into disfavour and could therefore count on his calorific intake suffering... flying rations is a serious business!

[retrosgone]

Fifteen years flying the Nimrod (until 2005), and now I find out we had dairy Cream Sponges on board!!

What other secrets were being kept from us all those years?

[Gainesy]

roll-on fits for the more esoteric Herk roles,

Oh Dear Jack.this is getting dangerously close to Beverley Floors Yes/No?:uhoh:

[davejb]

By 1990 the art of the honkers was pretty much a fading memory, so here's a festive Honkers recipe to let those who never experienced the magic get a taste of what kept the crew going on Tapestry....

Ingredients:

3 large tins of compo spuds
4 tins compo minced beef
2 tins vegetable soup
2 onions
2 apples
Anything else you have handy
Curry powder to taste (as in 'if you can still taste anything you need to add more curry powder')

Method:
Take a medium/small saucepan, cram all the contents in, boil gently for 45 minutes until scrapeable. Serve in foil tray.

As a final touch, chuck anything to hand on top.