More easyJet Pilot Slavery Deals - Oxford Aviation Academy

[Alexander de Meerkat]

Meerkat Enterprises, having foolishly believed that the worst deal in the history of aviation had just been provided by CTC, are pleased to retract that statement as Oxford Aviation Academy have managed to trump that offer quite substantially. Last Friday OAA sent all its graduates a note, saying that they had worked an 'opportunity' for 20 graduates to start a self-funded Type Rating in January for 'a UK airline'. The airline in question has now been confirmed as easyjet. The deal on offer is £34000 for an A320 Type Rating and 75 hours line training. After this, the 'lucky' candidates will receive work for summer 2010 and possibly beyond. Needless to say, no money will be paid until AFTER completing the line training. Thereafter remuneration will be approx £50 per LFU for the first 12 months.

Slavery is indeed alive and well in the UK - what would William Wilberforce have said about this I wonder?

[binsleepen]

These type of 'great deals' surely (don't call me Shirley) cannot go on for much longer as no will be able to live, let alone pay off the loan required with this sort of remuneration. Is this not below the minimum wage?

No ordinary mortal will be able to pay for the CTC/ OAA scheme plus type rating in the future if there are no suitably paid jobs at the end of the training. Very few will have access to the bank of mum and dad especially with the reduction in house prices and the difficulty of remortgaging.

All the best to those looking for a job

including me!!!:O

[ShortfinalFred]

As per my post on another T and C thread about easyjet and contract Captains, the Russians are coming!!

My mate told me that the advisor to the orange board, the greek economics guy, said that Russian pilots were "the bargain of the century" and it was only a matter of time before they found the mechanism to employ them and so to "decimate terms and conditions across the UK airline industry", as he put it "to the great benefit of passengers - flying an aeroplane is no more socially useful than driving a bus and should be paid accordingly", so my mate recounted. The fact that this genius of economics is talking out of his *rse does not seem to bother the easy board who are, apparently, listening with rapt attention.

Soon it wont just be the FOs that are paid peanuts (or indeed, as here paying to sit in the flightdeck) - Captains will be paid peanuts too. This industry is shot to sh*t.

[silverknapper]

I'm no expert but it would appear that Easy are in dire need of a load of cheap FO's quickly, what with this 'scheme' and the CTC one. I use scheme lightly as it isn't really a scheme is it, it's a laugh.
I bet if no one signed up a better one will come along. And if that was ignored perhaps a better one again. Keep ignoring the pathetic offers eventually you may even get paid enough to live on.

[ROSCO328]

We have not lost the battle yet!! As for the latest Oxford offer like the rest is pure s**t and if anyone signs up for it then you are a nutter and I have no sympathy!:mad::mad:

[captplaystation]

As long as some short sighted individual is willing to shell out 34k for a rating and, MAYBE 6mths (say 400hrs) on type, whilst ignoring the fact that experienced F/O's laid off by XL /Sterling/Skyeurope etc are being systematically ignored by Ryan & Easy in preference to taking another blokes 34k, there will be no end to this nonsense.
How anyone can have the lack of imagination (or conceit?) to think that he/she is a marketable prospect with a handful of hrs on type , when the market is flooded with experienced folk, is beyond me.
How you can convince yourself, your bank, or your parents that this is anything other than futile amazes me. Or do the little lambs really believe that Easy are going to keep them in preference to taking more dosh ?:rolleyes:

Like taking candy from a baby. :suspect:

At least with Ryanair they are given a (not wonderful) Brookie contract, and even if their hrs go down once they pass the 500JAR hr mark, at least they remain in "employment" (of sorts) Still cr@p, but not on the scale of this insult to the profession Easy are adding to the previous CTC merde.
As prev posters have said, this is only the beginning, further self prostitution at all career levels looks like the future, think I would be better moving into wholesale distribution of vaseline, THAT is the future growth area in aviation.

[olster]

Interesting that economic gurus could be referring to airline pilots as 'socially useless'.That is the specific phrase that Lord Myners I believe,used to describe the bankers who until recently virtually brought the world to its knees economically.

Having spent in excess of 6 years at easyJet and had a ring side view of the antics of the 'managers 'of that era I have always known the contempt directed at the pilots.It was initially a surprise having come from good airlines that treated crew properly and with (mutual) respect.I have tried to say here on numerous occasions that easy are just as bad and probably worse than the Ryans in many ways. I hope now with this ludicrous attempt to destroy the pilot profession that they can be seen in their true colours(creepy orange).Any new pilot who signs up to this has mental health issues and/or a stunning lack of basic economic theory.

atb

[james1013]

Look at it from a cadet's point of view. £65K down, low hours, no job prospects, loan to start paying back, blinded by the propaganda that you're on an Airline Preparation Program (i.e. APP first officer or something like that) and you can see why there's a queue of young lads and lasses with a £34K cheque.

I'm not saying it's right, far from it, I'm just pointing out how they get away with it. Very clever stuff and a great business to be in. Nobody stops it as it's only affecting a minority, if affected the masses then they'd wheel in Anne Robinson (Watchdog, no not her it's the show she presents) and the faces of Airline/OAA/CTC/etc Management would be plastered all over prime time tele and portrayed as villains (come on boo and hiss, it is panto season!..."they are behind you!"(I won't go into what they are doing there)).

So what should a OAA/CTC victim do? Pay the £34K and try and make some sort of progress? Walk away from aviation until the supply demand relationship swings the other way? Buy a more sought after TR e.g. on a turbo prop? teach PPL in a SEP until you meet a nice man who let's you come fly for his aviation outfit?

Ideally it needs all graduates to boycott such schemes, but how the hell does one control that. There will always be several who have the cash or just don't care and break ranks and undermine the whole idea.

[ROSCO328]

To those cadets being setup!!!

YOU ARE BEING USED!! DO NOT HAND OVER ANOTHER 34K!!

Yes this is Easy for me to say I hear you say, but I have been in lots of debt like you. You may not like my advise but honestly you are just being ripped off and you WILL be dropped like a stone when summer is over and there is a fresh load willing to shell out! Use your brains guys/gals.:ugh::ugh:

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

the Russians are coming!!
Good God, Fred, is that the best you can do?

I suppose since it worked on the Americans for the length of the cold war, you might be encouraged to take it out for a test drive, but really?

The bloody Russians are coming? Shiva H. Krishnu, you union scare mongers really are scraping the bottom of the barrel these days.

If that were true, we would have hired Chinese, Ugandans and Bangladeshi pilots by now because they're supposedly cheap too. No mention of right of abode though, the language barrier, quality of airmanship or, in the case of the Russians, the ability to spend as many as twelve hours in a row stone, cold sober! Highly questionable expectations, especially the last.

There's only one Russian I'm interested in at the moment, and he's furry, stands about a foot tall, and looks very dapper indeed in a burgundy smoking jacket.

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[hollingworthp]

This is a truely shocking scheme but I suspect it will be oversubscribed :ugh::ugh:

Fortunately, FR's growth policy change, this scam and the new CTC scheme may just be enough to tip the balance with the banks (who are already adopting a hard line I understand) to put an end to such degradations of terms.

It does also go to make the FR recruitment look more attractive than it might have previously - at least you get paid a reasonable amount and should get a healthy dose of hours.

[james1013]

115 applied to an OAA selection panel, 30 short listed, 24 of those will go to interview, 20 places available. So i guess that makes 95 who will ultimately be spared another huge mountain of debt.

With numbers like this it's no wonder airlines offer "opportunities" of this nature.

Oh and the type rating will be done in OAA sims and the FOs will be on a Parc contract, so most of the £34K goes into the pot of companies that have become OAA branded in one form or another over recent years.

[Dreamshiner]

I have read a lot on here in 5 years to make me feel disgusted, this takes the biscuit.

Oxford are aligning with this why? ... that's a question that has to be answered. Surely its to ensure an adequate number of people apply for the zero to hero course with the glimmer of a potential job at the end. They must feel it offers them an edge in the current climate, an additional marketing tool if nothing else. Makes them appear to have connections and one of the few avenues available. For a school that prides itself on not being the cheapest but the best/high standards etc. it is appalling.

Problem is that with 115 applying for 20 places its in demand. The fact that its attached to Oxford is maybe not the best barometer if you were to take a cross section of the past and present students and how they have funded their training and their attitude when so many feel they eclipse their contemporaries who go via other means (granted this is a generalisation from my experiences of Oxford candidates and does not cover all). Put the option to the same number of modular pilots, I can guarantee 115 wouldn't apply.

I hope an OAA executive reads this and re-evaluates their position, because they are doing a disservice to the industry and their future customers.

[RED WINGS]

LEO!!

Didnt stop Ryan with the Varig guys did it!!!!

But then language barriers create no problems do they???

Although I have sympathy for the cadets, I sometimes wonder if they know that when there dumped for a cheaper product do they realise they are unlikely to ever get another airline job?? Ask any experienced redundant FO, the so called "safe" LoCos dont want to know as they have a new guy for free whos going to pay X amount for TRSS and line training without a contract?? But thats fine its great for the pax!!!:ugh:

[olster]

I stand corrected:it was Lord Turner,chairman of the FSA who described certain bankers as 'socially useless'.

[Wingswinger]

My mate told me that the advisor to the orange board, the greek economics guy, said that Russian pilots were "the bargain of the century" and it was only a matter of time before they found the mechanism to employ them and so to "decimate terms and conditions across the UK airline industry", as he put it "to the great benefit of passengers - flying an aeroplane is no more socially useful than driving a bus and should be paid accordingly", so my mate recounted. The fact that this genius of economics is talking out of his *rse does not seem to bother the easy board who are, apparently, listening with rapt attention.


Sff,

Would you care to tell us who your mate is and what his source is? Also who is the "Greek economics guy"? We ought to know.

Meerkat Enterprises, having foolishly believed that the worst deal in the history of aviation had just been provided by CTC, are pleased to retract that statement as Oxford Aviation Academy have managed to trump that offer quite substantially. Last Friday OAA sent all its graduates a note, saying that they had worked an 'opportunity' for 20 graduates to start a self-funded Type Rating in January for 'a UK airline'. The airline in question has now been confirmed as easyjet. The deal on offer is £34000 for an A320 Type Rating and 75 hours line training. After this, the 'lucky' candidates will receive work for summer 2010 and possibly beyond. Needless to say, no money will be paid until AFTER completing the line training. Thereafter remuneration will be approx £50 per LFU for the first 12 months.


AdM,

Where is the evidence that this is the case? Likewise for the latest CTC terms "on offer"? Is there something, a link or otherwise, that you can post here so that we can all see it? It's not that I don't believe you, simply that we need to know the irrefutable facts, not rumour, if we are to mount a campaign to stop it.

[AppleMacster]

Also who is the "Greek economics guy"? We ought to know.


I think he's referring to Rigas Doganis (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vbOFNwlhEAQC&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=Rigas+Doganis+wiki&source=bl&ots=Txp-xmefRP&sig=DUOLyx-ApibJXEI4FYyO--R12P8&hl=en&ei=iKssS9CrKpH-4AbO_ZCbCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=&f=false)

Applemacster

[clanger32]

Dreamshiner,
I actually think you have touched on a very important point here. In some ways you can't blame OAA for offering this scheme - as as you point out, without it, it's just more (f)ATPL holders waiting on an upturn.

However one has to question whether in offering this scheme OAA have undercut their own USP - which is to be percieved as "the best" (and please note all, I'm not arguing for one second whether OAA ARE or ARE NOT the best - simply that from a pure business perspective this is their USP). In offering this particular scheme I wonder if OAA have moved away from "the best" and instead relegated themselves to "any other" FTO and in so doing having just become a more expensive version of the licence one can gain at any other school.

Wingswinger. This scheme exists. Speaking as an OAA grad who has said no to it...can't vouch for the numbers, save that I'm one of the 95.

[Finals19]

Fortunately, FR's growth policy change, this scam and the new CTC scheme may just be enough to tip the balance with the banks (who are already adopting a hard line I understand) to put an end to such degradations of terms.

Hear hear!! Indeed, its impossible to differentiate one source of degradation from the other nowadays. Alas, to see OAA banded in the same paragraph as FR is truly shameful but they're now one of their larger providers of cadets. How the mighty fall.

If the banks stopped lending, the music would stop very rapidly and it would not be untenable to see FTO's (offering such shocking schemes) fold. A blessing in disguise perhaps for the uneducated or grossly misguided.

[SKY's4ME]

Although Airlines are to blame for accepting these schemes. It is ultimately the Flight Training providors that have won the race to the bottom!

Surely we have now reached rock bottom and a return to the normal recruiting practices soon awaits?

Finaly airlines ignore the current avialable experianced guys at their peril. In the next two years to come these will be the ones that will fill the many left hand seat opportunities. It is sad to think those most in need of these guys easy ala ryanair are the ones ignoring them..

[Mac72]

Matt.V
Sorry mate but can you explain what have you got against eastern european pilots pls? Are you saying that it is ok for ezy or fr to fly to prague or karkow but as long as there is a brit behind the controls??
Mac:ugh:

[ROSCO328]

Think Matt is saying we don't want cheap eastern european pilots filling right/left seats and I agree with him!!

[TheBeak]

So do I, especially when it is a BRITISH airline and there are so many qualified BRITISH pilots unemployed. Yes we require higher pay because the cost of living in this crap country is so high. I have just seen 'wife swap' in which an unemployed woman with 7 kids takes home £2700 a month after tax and a building contractor is earning 90K a year. Meanwhile people are supposed to accept 18K a year because an Eastern European will do the job for less or because 115 berks (and yes I do mean absolute, catastrophic, thick and very deluded berks) at Oxford have applied for this horrendous scheme. I hope they take their parents down with them - all 115 of them - that ought to sort this :mad: out. The industry is absolutely shafted at the moment, it's an embarrasment.

[Mac72]

TheBeak
why dont you move abroad then if you dont like it here so much?
ive been living in the uk for the last 8 years and has always been paid the same as my BRITISH colleagues. I have a new years resolution for you -less "me,me,me" and a bit more "we,we,we"
M

[TheBeak]

Good for you. I don't see where the 'me, me, me' is in my post? I was speaking about British pilots and the future of the piloting career in general with my post. A good opportunity for you to share your New Years resolution none-the-less.

[remoak]

1. It isn't slavery if you sign up for it.

2. It isn't right or wrong, it's just where the market is right now.

3. It will continue until everyone works out that the "recession" is over.

4. People who sign up for this aren't stupid or deluded, they just want the gig and are prepared to pay for it. Happens in every downturn, it isn't new. I can remember people buying type ratings back in the '80s.

5. Why do people expect airlines to continue paying high salaries when they don't have to? It's a business, it's all about balancing your cost base against safety.

I'd be the first to agree that things were a lot better 20 years ago (if you were in BA, anyway), but the world has moved on. Either get to grips with reality or find another career.

For myself, the more I see of the modern airline career, the more I want a different one!

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

You lot are welcome to it.

The 'low cost' chickens must eventually roost.

[Doug the Head]

1. It isn't slavery if you sign up for it."None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." (Goethe) ;)

[TheBeak]

4. People who sign up for this aren't stupid or deluded, they just want the gig and are prepared to pay for it. Happens in every downturn, it isn't new. I can remember people buying type ratings back in the '80s.


They are and stupid, deluded people existed in the 80s too. Besides, buying a TR with a guaranteed job at the end is one thing, buying a TR with 50 - 75 hours attached when qualified, experienced people are losing theirs is disrespectful, a complete mockery of the food chain, bad karma, short termist (what do they think will happen the following year - much, much more so on a scheme like this than Ryanairs), impatient and dreadfully, ignorantly thick in my view. Of course, little William, whos parents are so proud that he has scraped a CPL/IR will pay for it so that they can say at dinner parties that 'William's now a pilot for Easyjet'.

(Disclaimer: no I am not at Oxford having lost out on a scheme like this to someone rich called William, nor have I ever!)

I couldn't understand the Ryanair scheme and why people signed up for it, I REALLY can't understand this. This makes the Ryanair deal look excellent. It's absolutley appauling. And to offer it as an 'opportunity' is laughable - an opportunity for who? OAA/ Parc and EasyJet and that is it.

The fact it has been forced on the CTC people is a completely different debate and one that the trainees thus far are not at fault over.

[olster]

The easy trainers should refuse to line train those that are paying.easy to say but with collective will it could work.

atb

[Finals19]

They are and stupid, deluded people existed in the 80s too. Besides, buying a TR with a guaranteed job at the end is one thing, buying a TR with 50 - 75 hours attached when qualified, experienced people are losing theirs is disrespectful, a complete mockery of the food chain, bad karma, short termist (what do they think will happen the following year - much, much more so on a scheme like this than Ryanairs), impatient and dreadfully, ignorantly thick in my view. Of course, little William, whos parents are so proud that he has scraped a CPL/IR will pay for it so that they can say at dinner parties that 'William's now a pilot for Easyjet'.

The Beak - Amen to that. I think you have summed up what hundreds of guys are feeling. This whole thing runs much deeper than just whacking a ton of money down that Mummy and Daddy have fronted up (because lets face it, the banks won't for much longer!) Its also a moral view point and an ethical code of conduct that comes into play here, especially with regard to your fellow (much more experienced) pilots in the current climate.

Cue the hardcore business analysts who will claim that this is purely economic forces at work and business is business...

[PENKO]

Not the trainers. The union. That's what we have unions for.

[Doug the Head]

Not the trainers. The union. That's what we have unions for.Partly correct, because a union without strong support from it's members is worth nothing.

Ask yourself the following question: why don't airlines like Air France, BA, Lufthansa, KLM etc have any of these pay-for-type-rating deals? Answer: they have a strong union and pilot corps with a backbone and the foresight that this will lead to disaster! :uhoh:

Both the union and the membership won't allow it!

[Mister Geezer]

It is interesting to see that some of you are surprised at an organisation like Oxford getting involved in such a scheme. However it must be remembered that a Flight Training Organisation is a business and the intention is to generate a profit. There is nothing illegal with this scheme and given the facilities that are now under the Oxford training umbrella, I can see more schemes like this in the future. I would also expect that this scheme will be very lucrative for Oxford as well.

Oxford are now in a very strong position and far stronger than CTC when you compare the facilities at their disposal. Will 2010 see Oxford becoming the 'Pay as you go' TRTO of choice for these airlines? I suspect it could well be! :eek:

[Chief Brody]

As someone who has had a very charmed route into the airline industry:

PPL at Biggin Hill then hour building and distance learning ATPL theoretical
Flight school - Jerez
Unpaid safety pilot job - about 6 months
Regional FO (flybe) - just under 2 years
Shorthaul FO (BA) - Airbus

I have little right to preach about the pro and cons of paying for a TR - it's something that by my own admission i've never had to consider.

Just be wary guys and gals - cheques only take seconds to write out but paying them back can take a decade or even longer (I say this from experience). If the money is your parents and paying it back is not the issue then ask yourself what is the liklihood you'll be kept on after your contractual package with Easyjet has ended? - If the answer is 'unlikely' you'll find yourself with a further 30 odd grand to repay and adrift in a sea of currently unemployed 737 type rated chaps/chapesses who have many thousands of hours compared to your 500.

I understand the quandry. In the old days the route to the RHS was a well trodden one, flight school then instructor or parachute dropper or safety pilot then turboprop driver (or 73) and so on. This path has become muddied not only by the downturn but also by new pilots shelling out for these packages in the hope of leap frogging the rest of the pack. And the truth is (IMHO) so many people have started to do it that in a way this has become the new norm - the point being there is no longer such an advantage to be had by doing it.

Its easy to be seduced by the dream (and it can be great career despite things looking pretty down beat right now) just think long and hard before each move you make.

CB

[FRying]

How about setting up a strike throughout Europe and put an end to all this madness ?

When will Balpa firmly oppose the continuous fall in T&Cs ? When will BALPA require us captains to act and keep those airplanes on the ground ? Another 10 years and there'll be no descent jobs and we'll all have to speak Russian.

Why in hell did I quit my finance job ????

[AlpineSkier]

@FRying

I don't believe you can strike for something that doesn't [B]directly[B] affect you otherwise it is "secondary action" , which is, I think, illegal.

Apart from that, I reckon MOL would be a lot quicker with his injunctions than WW. Either that or a bunch o' big lads from Dublin.

[FRying]

Doesn't affect me ???? Of course this affects me ! It affects the whole bloody pilots population. Isn't it obvious ???

[AlpineSkier]

No , it doesn't affect you DIRECTLY (tried to put this in bold in last post ).

If it was your company then yes, but your can't legally strike about what happens at another company ( seconday action).

IR laws brought inbefore/ during 1980's NUM strike to stop railwaymen/steelworkers etc supporting miners.

[Pizzaro]

Chief Brody,

Here here, couldn't have put it better myself !!!

Regards P.

[TheBeak]

I have heard mention that Easyjet actually 'need' 200 FOs, is this for real? With only 6 new aircraft coming online? I'd be EXTREMELY cautious about signing up for this. Come on, this is a joke of a scheme. Where do these people find their money? It can only be from their parents homes. I was lucky enough to earn excellent money prior to flying in order to pay for my training, I don't believe everyone can afford 140Ks worth of payments though - it's insane.

[D O Guerrero]

And people say Ryanair are crooks....

[Luke SkyToddler]

Are they still planning on hiring FO's through the "normal" TRSS method, or is this rip off scheme going to put paid to that as well? I know there are plenty of high time turboprop guys who have been hammering ezy with CVs throughout this downturn and got no news, it's a real kick in the teeth for them if this scandalous nonsense with Oxford and CTC kids becomes the only way into the company now :ugh:

[wind check]

Lucky Sky Todler,

Who is the cheapest one to press the button and do fuel checks in cruise? The experienced pilot TRSS or the bloody cadet fron CTC, Oxford, Jerez, etc ?..

Who is more likely to put the trouser down and accept ****e salary and ****e conditions to fly the "big toy" ? The experienced pilot or the other one ?

Who is the most expensive to train ? the experienced pilot or the cadet who will need more sim, more line training? (remember, those private schools are here to make monney, not to offer a dream for free)

Finally what does low cost means ? is it compatible with high paid crews doing 2 sectors a day or hourly paid crew ?

easyjet is finished. Go to Ryanair, at least they have better bases, better incomes, better aircraft, better network, and better roster :)

[TheBeak]

easyjet is finished. Go to Ryanair, at least they have better bases, better incomes, better aircraft, better network, and better roster http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

I am astonished to say it but you are right. Ryanair will win this one and I very much hope that Easyjet suffer. Ryanair are the better airline to fly for.:eek:

[UAV689]

Yes the ryan deal is better now, but when old pikey gets wind of these watch this space....

these 2 airlines will both systematically destroy FO's - no way will Pikey continue with the same contract when he finds out, he will drop his t+c, and after he does again, give it a few months and easy do the same.

The only way to recover from this spiral descent is not to take these deals!

Think about it, when shops cant sell a shirt, it goes into sale. If new FO's refuse this slavery, money goes up.

Is there no lawyer around here that can examine the contract, it must be below min wage.

[FANS]

Please do not dismiss this deal, I have also heard a rumour that it includes the following:

- video tape of your first take-off & landing
- photo opportunity outside the aircraft, in a unique EZY frame
- signed certificate from the captain
- opportunity to make tannoy announcements in your best pilot voice
- graduation dinner on finish with your fellow aces

[One9iner]

:DFANS. I have to agree.

This deal seems to degrade low houred cadets to 'toursit stlye sight seeing trips' that cost an arm and a leg. Or 12.

I've said this before on Pprune, no economic graph is one directional. Let's hope the turn in this graph will be upon us ASAP, and then T&C's will follow suit. Could be a while though.

[unimuts]

I think it its totally shameful and makes a utter mockery of those who get involved in this pay to work scheme.

How come the European commission has never questioned the validity of this? The CAA ? Why havent the the Newspapers ever published a story of this practice?

I'm sure there must be a hack out there willing to highlight this immoral practice by shaming all parties involved.

At a time when BA are going on strike this would make a great story me thinks.

:confused:

Uni

[757_Driver]

I'm not condoning this type of deal in any way whatsoever, but before all us pilots feel hard done by then have a look at this:

Graduates 'paying £8,000 for internships' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/6840634/Graduates-paying-8000-for-internships.html)

unfortunately in Gordon Browns brave new world, this now appears to be the norm in getting 'work' in any industry.

Obviously it is all unsustainable and will all go pear shaped at some point - but when? 1 year, 10 years? who the hell knows.

[One9iner]

Can you imagine newly qualified Doctors paying for 3 year temp con-tracts, where £'s per hour are awarded for an unkown period of time!?

Doctors have a 100% fail rate; everyone dies at some point.
Pilots must have a 0% fail rate....

[cjd_a320]

Pilots are not doctors.....
Pilot training had NVQ status
ATPL was NVQ level 4 = ( HNC / HND)

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

I think it is important to have a sense of what is true and what is not. Loathe as I am to admit it, right now anyone who has any choice whatsoever should not darken the door of easyJet but go straight to Ryanair. Tragically, for new joiners, Ryanair are significantly better. That does not mean they are good employers - it does mean easyJet are signficantly worse for anyone outside the protection of the union (which right now are all crews joining from CTC/Oxford etc).

All of the above is true. What is not true are the ridiculous assertions that

easyjet is finished. Go to Ryanair, at least they have better bases, better incomes, better aircraft, better network, and better roster

I have always tried to give a balanced view on these forums - part of that is telling the truth about where we are at the moment. Right now easyJet is about as bad an employer for new pilots as you could find on the planet. However, not all Ryanair pilots have better incomes than easyJet's - many do not. Also at easyJet we fly brand new Airbuses which the overwhelming majority of ex-737 pilots much prefer. We have a fantastic safety culture, great access to computer performance calculations etc and better operational support. I work at Gatwick and would challenge you to find any airline in the world that has a better route network than we do in terms of variety and breadth. I have worked there 6 years and have still not flown to all our destinations. I have also looked at Ryanair's roster, which I do not knock in any way as it has a number of plus points. Nonetheless, given a straight choice, I would choose ours. That, folks, is a balanced view on the situation and I hope the more rational readers here will be able to tell truth from fiction.

[One9iner]

cjd; I'm not comparing Dr.s to CTC cadets. I have numerous friends who have slogged through 7+ years of hard graft to become pillars of society, and I'm proud to be their friend.

My point is that, like medicine, an aviation career is an expensive, long slog, ultimate vocation. And it is dreadful that the aviation career is becoming so degraded that it no longer rewards hard work but rewards deep pockets with expensive contracts. . .

I'm on the same page as you my friend!

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Tragically, for new joiners, Ryanair are significantly better.
Norman is right, of course, but I think the more tragic thing is that a man of his honesty and decency works an organisation that conceives of its relations with him so thinly, that his commitment to it is in no way matched by their commitment to him.

Anyone possessed of a longer term view of such things as are ours in the air will draw their own conclusions. It is my hope that, in the fullness of time, so too will Norman. Much as I'm sure it irks you to hear it for now, old friend, you have the heart and soul of a Ryanair pilot. Do come on over, won't you?

All the best for now,

Leo.

[skyfly46]

Quote:
easyjet is finished. Go to Ryanair, at least they have better bases, better incomes, better aircraft, better network, and better roster http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif
I am astonished to say it but you are right. Ryanair will win this one and I very much hope that Easyjet suffer. Ryanair are the better airline to fly for.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif


Pretty much like saying: I don't like elephant sh*t, i prefer the dog sh*t
:mad::mad::mad:

[McBruce]

Windcheck,

Who are the ones who CAN actually try and put a stop to this? the inexperienced OAA cadet looking to fly a shiney new jet or the experienced EZY pilot?

It's all good bitching about the cadets but the people in the industry are the people who can actually make a difference. Too many old beans sit comfy in the LHS not giving a toss about how the industry is going in terms of the RHS because it doesn't affect them. Well the T+C's are being erroded from the bottom up.

[TheBeak]

CTC/EASY ETC ALL A LOAD OF EXPLOITING xxxxx

No, people have to train somewhere sonny jim. Oxford are an opportunistic bunch of parasites. CTC had an agreement to supply pilots to Easyjet. Everyone has been aware that that was coming to an end this Winter. Oxford have gone in there and said they have a bunch of 'young, dumb and full of cum' rich mummy and daddies children who would happily pay for a TR with their company. Easy have probably suggested something in line with Ryanairs TR deal. Oxford, to seal the deal, have offered something that bit worse, knowing the calibre of the individuals they are dealing with, in order to get a 'foot in the door' like the rest of us. For CTC, the rest is history. What both Oxford and CTC have done, contrary to how they probably feel, has made themselves look very silly and devalued and degraded their own product.

Please could one of the 115 'poor, you don't know me, I worked for my money (course you did)' Oxford space cadets that signed up for this deal come on here and explain themselves......if their balls have dropped yet.


Pretty much like saying: I don't like elephant sh*t, i prefer the dog sh*t
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif

Just like it.

[Clandestino]

the more tragic thing is that a man of his honesty and decency works an organisation that conceives of its relations with him so thinly, that his commitment to it is in no way matched by their commitment to him.

:ok: Spot on, old sport! So to avoid the unnecessary tragedy, the people working for employer treating them like excrementa, should be of low moral standards themselves and ready to stab their employer in the back at the first opportunity.

The strategy used by Brookfield/Ryanair, and seemingly emulated by EasyJet/CTC, is a valid one (for the MGT) provided that a) crisis is going to deepen, everything goes to hell, anyway and it's time to grab as much as you can before everything collapses, or b) crisis will become permanent and therefore used as a stick to discipline the workforce. If upturn ever comes, some airlines will find out that pilotless transport aeroplane hasn't been certified, let alone made yet. Not to their top management chagrin, of course. Their retirement provisions are quite raid-proof and able to last them for a couple of centuries or so.

Last weekend's "Lunch with the FT" (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/073c8d40-e9ca-11de-ae43-00144feab49a.html) column was very interesting, to say the least.

Anyway, now that you mention the "Eastern European cheap pilots menace", do you have any idea how many pilots are waiting behind the rusty iron curtain to be unleashed upon flightdeck jobs in Western Europe? I'm asking because seemingly Roland Berger is quite clueless about it and anyone following their advice is bound to get hurt.

[10002level]

What is currently happening is not far removed from the status in the early 1990s. The economy was in recession and jobs became more scarce. Those that were hiring paid peanuts for inexperienced pilots - ask anyone who worked for CityFlyer Express about the poverty wages on offer and they will no doubt tell you how bad it was. British Midland - as they were then known - did a scheme whereby pilots paid for a 737 type rating with no promise of a job thereafter and you had to have passed at least the technical exams to get an interview with any turboprop operator.

As an out of work pilot I considered all the options and decided to go down the instructor route until things got a little better - in any case paying for a 737 type rating with no promise of a job was not financially possible for myself. The end result was that I did eventually get that first step onto the airline career - almost 4 years after gaining a CPL/IR and frozen ATPL - and I am now a Captain with easyJet. Along the way I passed the ARB for both the HS748 and Shorts 360, but flew neither. Others decided to pay for the type rating and worked for the appropriate operator, though in some instances several months after they completed the course.

The point that I am making is that either you take the offer that is on the table or you find some other way into the profession. If you do not or cannot accept what is on the table, unfortunately there will always be someone else who can and will. Until people stand together and unanimously say no, these schemes will exist. Go instructing, try to find yourself some work flying a light twin, how about flying a Caravan round Africa? Who knows, you may actually enjoy it! There are plenty of things you can do other than jump straight into the RHS of a shiny jet, and most of them are more fun!

[RHINO]

I would have thought the EASYJET CC would never have a better time to throw some weight about.

CEO departing, no finance director, should be very straight forward if they have the bottle.......

[stansdead]

Unbelieveable.

I never thought we would see the day that such things were common place.

Whether you are blue, orange, pink, green or neutral coloured, this is truly shockingly awful.

115 signed up? MUGS!!!!:mad:

[Capt Pit Bull]

Those that were hiring paid peanuts for inexperienced pilots - ask anyone who worked for CityFlyer Express about the poverty wages on offer and they will no doubt tell you how bad it was

What? They may not have paid very well... but they did pay you, not vice versa.

And its one thing to be paid peanuts for flying for an startup outfit with a handful of turboprops, its another thing entirely to be paying 10's of thousands for the privilege of working for a major jet operator for a few months.

A lot of the CFE folks did a year or two on peanuts and then moved on to jet operators. Or stayed put and got commands, and pretty soon jet commands within CFE. In otherwords there was a career path available. Now, even if you could find a job with a small outfit, you'd be stuck there because the path further up the totem pole is blocked by people paying to occupy RHS Jets.

What is currently happening is not far removed from the status in the early 1990s.

Its vastly different!

[TheBeak]

Its vastly different!

It is indeed in so many ways.

This Oxford scheme is by far and away worse than any scheme I have ever heard of by a light year. It's obviously worse than the CTC scheme and some way off the ATP scheme, the Eagle Jet scheme and a Pyramid scheme. It's all a big scheme!

For the love of safety, flying, money, the future and god will the trainers at Easyjet PLEASE refuse to train these tools......these underselected, thick, useless, cretinous, pointless (because they need to pay to do a job - their only purpose is as a form of revenue generation), impatient, RayBan aviator wearing, wet look gel using tools.

Since one of the 115 applicants hasn't yet developed the brass ones to comment please could some trainers from Easy say what part they'll play in preventing this. It's standing by and letting bad things happen that allows bad things to happen.

[Right Way Up]

please could some trainers from Easy say what part they'll play in preventing this

What would your suggestions be, Beak?

[TheBeak]

Say that you simply aren't willing to fly with these 'pilots'. End of. The company can not operate without its trainers. Why are train drivers and postal workers willing to do this but pilots aren't? You, the pilots in a position of power with true experience on your licences, are contributing to the ruin of OUR futures as pilots through your indifference. Why would you be doing it? So that the right people, through selection and experience rather than their parents reckless borrowing/ wealth, are brought into the RHS of commercial airliners and then, in due course, into the LHS of the aircraft. REFUSE to fly with these people. It feels good to be good. Please.

Prevention is the best form of cure, stop this before it has actually happened because once it has the only thing that will stop it will be the loss of aircrafts and lives. And I don't mean that to sound wishy washy.

[Bus Allergy]

There is a tsunami of callow yoofs with stars in their eyes out there, willing to pay to become slaves.
It is naive and unrealistic to expect the low cost carriers to ignore this.
T&Cs for all crewmembers have deteriorated during the recent boom years.
So, it is not exactly rocket science predicting how things are likely to pan out during this recession.
Happy Christmas :ok:

[clanger32]

I'm going to try and be careful how I word this.
Beak. You are right on so many things here. You're right that it's not a good scheme. You're right that it belittles those that do it. You're right (IMHO) that at least a part of the way to stop it is for LTCs etc to simply refuse to fly with them. You're right that it erodes everything from the bottom up. Dammit, you're even right that it creates a "me first" attitude that encourages people to take whatever edge they can get. As normal you have put generally quite an erudite, balanced view.

However. Where you have your head wedged firmly up your own arse is in your assessment and assumptions about the OAA grads who went forward for it. In fairness I think it's because you don't have visibility of the whole picture....but in jumping to a conclusion, you yourself show exactly half the problem....everyone in this industry THINKS they know and is 100% sure they're correct and everyone else is wrong.

FWIW, I am one of the 115 that "went forward" for it. The reason for this is that (not even the guys that work at the school) we were not initially told anything approaching the full terms and conditions or who the operator was....the 115 (and this btw is assuming the figure is correct....I simply don't know) responded to an open and generic email from Oxford stating they had an opportunity and asking who had the capability to self fund a TR for a position starting in Jan. That is ALL the 115 are guilty of - responding to a "we have an opportunity, are you interested?" email.

Only then, when 115 had expressed an interest were we then sent the full details, whereon the vast majority of those I know who had registered an interest backed off quicker than you can imagine. It's also interesting that the initially indicated cost went up significantly once the initial interest had been gathered.

IIRC you are in the region of 24 years old and claim to have self funded your training. Let's get one thing straight, there are very, VERY few careers that would have enabled you, by age 24, to have fully self funded flying training...and those that do exist would have required you to have more than a modicum of luck. Therefore, wind your sodding neck in and start realising how fortunate you are to be in zero debt, stop complaining that some others are in a better position that you and start getting the facts before you post your less well thought out comments.

FWIW - I spent well over a decade building a career that enables me to do this debt free, so not all OAA grads are "young, dumb and full of :mad:". Indeed, of the people I know who went forward some ARE funded by their parents, a couple have secured loans in principal, one owned his own company, one sold his house and several have worked for many years.

For someone who generally has there head screwed on, this is just pure arse gravy and is a detriment to you, belittling your obvious intelligence. The guys/girls that have gone forward for this ARE going to be sore of bottom for a long time.

However people read crap like some of the assumptions you have commited to screen and instantly think "well, why the hell should I wait my turn - no one is going to help me out, they're just going to hurl insults" Indeed this whole industry seems totally set out for the self serving, so why do you blame or show indignation when anyone does exactly that.

It IS a tragedy that Easy - an employer I would have loved to work for even 6 months ago - is now lowering itself to these levels purely because they can. It's also a tragedy that OAA have decided to involve themselves in this scheme. Both companies will, it is my belief, in the fullness of time, come to regret this.

Rant over.

On a more generic point, however, the real sadness of this scheme is that suddenly if a "pay £20k for a TR and a full time job" offer came up, it's looking like a very good deal.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

I am an easyJet Training Captain and I can assure anyone reading this that no one, but no one, who flies for easyJet has the slightest time for this scheme. The other thing that has become apparent in my discussions of the last few days is that the people who devised this, and similar, schemes have no idea the strength of feeling that has risien up at grass roots level. Even the most die-hard union haters are realising the disaster that is facing us and are starting to take a big interest. I can only echo clanger32's posts which are from a man facing the most difficult of choices.

This crisis at easyJet, and that is what it is, has its origins in the desire of a few key members of our management team to de-unionise at the earliest opportunity. They are therefore doing everything they can to ensure that there will be no new permanent employees for years to come. Under the watchful eye of our truly dreadful Flt Ops Director, easyJet is rushing headlong downhill into a major industrial confrontation with its staff. It is not what I would have wanted, but I now fully accept the likeliehood of it. I will be offering full, unreserved support to BALPA when the time comes - and come it will. The tragedy of choosing bonus-hunting, short-termists to run the airline is that when favours are required then none are forthcoming. That has been ably demonstrated in the last few days when enormous flexibility and good will has been required, and little or none has been forthcoming. Looking after your staff pays dividends in the end - a fact easyJet management have conspicuously failed to grasp. It requires the active teamwork of pilots, cabin crew, engineers, dispatchers and management when times are hard - all we now have are increasingly beligerent pilots who are itiching for a fight. From what I hear, our Flt Ops Director is champing at the bit for a conflict with the pilots, so the signs are not good. I dare to hope that one of Andy Harrison's parting gestures will be to arrange for the gentleman concerned to 'to seek fresh challenges outside of easyJet'. He does not enjoy the confidence of his staff and is widely seen as the cause of all the current difficulties. His continued presence is a barrier to resolution of the numerous serious, but totally unnecessary, difficulties that have arisen in the last year or so. He has surrounded himself with 'yes' men who will not stand up to him and the manning crisis of these last few days is proof positive of the mess we are in. EasyJet should never, ever be talked about in the same breath as Ryanair, but instead we have managed to surpass them in our race to the bottom of the barrel - and that is some achievement.

I am priveleged to work with top-rate, professional and quality people when I go to work. My day-to-day job is great, but I am unable to sit back and watch the outrageous terms and conditions that are being imposed on gullible young people from CTC and OAA. Their careers are over before they have begun and they cannot see it. I am ashamed at what we are trying to do, and am willing to take part in whatever action may be required to act on behalf of our pilots to recover the situation. As I say, the first step is the removal of a couple of key and culpable individuals to restore the confidence of the workforce. Then we can start from there to work together again in the battle.

[Brenoch]

It IS a tragedy that Easy - an employer I would have loved to work for even 6 months ago - is now lowering itself to these levels purely because they can. It's also a tragedy that OAA have decided to involve themselves in this scheme. Both companies will, it is my belief, in the fullness of time, come to regret this.


And the reason they can do this is because of people like you... :ugh:

[cjd_a320]

champing at the bit for a conflict with the pilots, so the signs are not good

Not surprising, after Vrieswijk & the rest have watched the recent events play out over at Nigel's.

Would "middle england" really have much sympathy if action went forward ?

No wonder their looking for conflict....

[captplaystation]

I assume the one "champing at the bit" is the one that resembles "brains" from Thunderbirds (strings still attached last time I saw him trying to dance at a Xmas do as well :D )
It was fairly obvious from his time with Mikeys Mob that he had gone seamlessly from being a pilot to being a pilot hater, or perhaps just a shytster. . . well if it's the same one I am thinking of you will no doubt know where I am coming from.
Had to write him a letter of apology once for sleeping -in and missing a positioning flight, he didn't actually give a toss that I missed the flt, but he did SO want that letter to add to his collection of cringing apologies.
Maybe used to take them to bed for stimulation ?
No use to man nor beast, but, a nasty piece of works, for that you will have a tough time convincing anyone to kick him out though.

[ZBMAN]

Would "middle england" really have much sympathy if action went forward ?

Public support is totally irrelevant. Why would a strike need to be popular with Joe public?

[seagull]

He is not the only one chomping at the bit.
Lets crush his train set together, and sent him home in his clogs.
:E:E
Just a thought,how many airlines are out there with no pilots??

[RED WINGS]

Maybe a common theme is emerging?? I didnt realise the hated Easy manager was a former Mickies gang member.

Funny the guys at Monarch have the exact same gripe at one of there elite managers formerly of the "gang". But then they also have a lot of BA fodder to poor devils!

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Brenoch - that is very harsh. There are no doubt guys like IIRC who 'self-funded' at age 24 (don't think so!). If it is true, then he is in the wrong game as anyone who can earn that sort of money at that age needs to get a proper job in the City or something. The little rich kids who Daddy saw all right are a relatively small part of this. clanger32 and others are faced with no other way into aviation and are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. Even Oxford Aviation has stuffed them in taking part in this shameful exercise. This is like blaming child prostitutes in Thailand for taking the 'work' and thereby creating the business. That is the wrong approach as you have to fight the source rather than the end product.

[wind check]

Remeber guys, not even 10 years ago Ryanair was recruiting experienced FOs with a minimum of 1500 hours on a jar25 aircraft. Those FOs were then offered a 5 years bond for their B738 type rating. Now this is history, ryanair recruits only low houred FO and that's it. easyjet has always been delayed in following Ryanair's idea, but here we are ;)

Low Cost are faced with serious financial difficulties. dont hope to come back with the good old days.
And what do I think about Balpa?? look at my location and you 'll find it out :} :ok:

[TheBeak]

You can earn the money by 24 and self fund - and yes it was in the City. Norman, it takes two to tango and the bigger man to walk away. Clanger, you must not take my words personally (having read your posts they aren't aimed at you) but in my experience they are a fair generalisation. I am sick and tired of meeting greasy haired (to the point they were told to wash their hair before entering the sim and using shared headsets), Ray Ban avaitor wearing, Citroen Saxo driving, BSc in Aviation Management holding, I think I am something different because I have first time passes (I hate to break it to you but so do many others and it counts for sh1t) who are having their dreams funded at the expense of their parents financial security and at the expense of currently unemployed, experienced pilots careers (because though they can offer the experience they can not offer the cost effectiveness of a PTF, impatient chump). I apologise for being graphic or rude but this scheme is the 10 tonne oak tree that breaks the camels back.

Low Cost are faced with serious financial difficulties

The two major LoCos posted very good figures relative to every other airline - Ryanair 200 million Euros profit and Easy a before tax profit of 44 million. The future? At this rate non existent.

[Right Way Up]

Say that you simply aren't willing to fly with these 'pilots'

So you think it would be sensible for trainers to take their own little bit of industrial action to sort the problem out. You obviously haven't been in aviation very long. :ugh:

[TheBeak]

Or you have been in aviation a little bit too long. If the old school methods have brought us to this then I say they need to change.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

TheBeak - not quite sure I understand your metaphors, but if one is that wealthy at age 24 you are in the wrong game!

wind check - your last 2 posts are, frankly, embarrassing. Regarding your location, it says an enormous amount about you. You cannot just make wild unsubstantiated statements like "Low Cost are faced with serious financial difficulties". That is clearly not true - the two most profitable carriers in the UK this last year were easyJet and Ryanair. As this thread is discussing, both these carriers have serious issues over employment practices, but they are two of the most financially sound airlines in the world. If you want to have strong opinions, that's fine - at least be able to back them up with credible argument. Please feel free to disagree with me but do not just come up with ludicrous statements and expect to be taken seriously. Better to be silent and thought a fool, rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

[Right Way Up]

Then I suggest you speak to an employment lawyer and ask the ramifications of such an act. My young family would not appreciate me being so gung-ho. When the Easyjet pilots support each other (30% turnout in the last ballot) then things may improve.

Not sure old school has ever been directed at me, should get a laugh from my mates. However if you want to talk about old school I don't think old school pilots would have ever let it get this far. This is a "new" pilot thing.

[wind check]

Norman,

Ryanair has just cancelled the purchase of further 200 aircraft, they know that the financial difficulties are coming soon and the petrol will cost more and more money. If the tickets become too expensive, then people wont buy them and will stay home instead of visiting europe for any short break. BUT low cost airlines need their aircraft too be at least 85% full, if not, they loose money. And this is going to happen!
The best idea to compensate is to get cheap staff and productive staff paid on the hours the work.

How can you say low houred cadets are dangerous if they hold a JAA/CAA/IAA licence and passed succesfully a type rating. Ryanair is full of cadets, but also Swiss, Luftansa, Air france, Cathay, etc...

30 years ago there were not so many flight school in europe, medical exams were more difficult to pass hence there were not so many cadets behind the door with a credit card and the trouser down. It's too late to reverse and go backwards. Aviation is ****** up.

[G-AWZK]

Ryanair has just cancelled the purchase of further 200 aircraft, they know that the financial difficulties are coming soon and the petrol will cost more and more money.

Ryanair cancelled nothing. They could not reach a deal with Boeing who would not bow to their bullying.

Petrol will cost more and more? So what sort of transport aircraft do you fly sonny? Maybe you should head off back to your MS flight sim. :ugh:
30 years ago there were not so many flight school in europe, medical exams were more difficult to pass hence there were not so many cadets behind the door with a credit card and the trouser down. Utter bollox.

Ryanair is full of cadets Ryanair is full of contractors who pay for their qualifications to fly company assets. I have said it before and I will say it again, if a company needs to get charity from it's employees then they do not deserve to be in business.

However;

if pilots are too stupid to see what is happening to the career, the T&Cs and the long game then they deserve all they get.

Why the hell are none of the pilot unions standing up against this sort of shyte? Probably because the very concept of industrial action is regarded as a bit lefty and Arthur Scargill.

Well boys and girls, if you don't wake up to the reality pretty bloody soon, the UK aviation industry is going to go the same way as the UK coal industry. You already have a foreign flagged airline claiming to carry more UK pax than BA and using cheap East European labour to keep costs down, now you have EZY looking East to fill the front two seats with cheap labour.

Someone is going to have to stand up against this, and it is going to have to be soon.

[Dreamshiner]

Option 1:

I could go out tomorrow and buy a JAA A320 TR for £20k then go to Eagle Jet and purchase 200 hours for approx £10k (subject to negotiation). £30k all in.

Based on the hatred aimed towards Eagle Jet on here (I'm happy to say I've been party to it) let us compare with the Oxford offer:

I do this scheme with OAA - £34k for 75 hours

Someone want to tell me the difference in concept between the two?

Let's not miss seeing the woods because of the trees here. This is the exact same/worse than what Eagle Jet offer, which almost everyone on here (a first for PPRuNe it seems) is united in hatred and criticism for. Only difference is Oxford appear to be legitimising it due to their name in the industry thus far (I think its lost quite a bit because of their desire to appear to be the only school still getting new students jobs).

They are selling a tidy profit and perception here, perception in the eyes of those who would consider them that they have an edge compared to the competition.

To the management of Oxford - Today's students are tomorrows chief pilots, most people tend to remember when they've been arse raped. And for someone who hasn't or would consider it, I will remember they marketed this and sold it through my career.

[411A]

What has been described here is nothing especially new...if you want to be an airline pilot, and there are no company funded schemes available, pony up the cash.
End of story.

Don't have the cash to pony up, or....do not desire to do so?
Find another way to make a living/find another profession.

It really is that simple.
Bit*hing and moaning will get you absolutely nowhere.
And, company management couldn't care less.

[blackred1443]

I fully support the above opinions stating that pay to fly is destroying this industry be it CTC/Brookfield/ATP. One also has to question Balpa's willingness to fight this cancer from spreading.I notice a couple of months back they carried a 3 page article in their 'Log' magazine on the damage CTC is doing, whereas this month they have a full page advert on page 11 advertising the OAA APPfirst officer program. Now if what i read on prune is true concern Oxford and this latest pay-to-destroy-the-career involvement with EZY, well talk about talking their 30 pieces of silver.......

Thankfully for now, i can only imagine how frustrating it must be to have a significant amount of jet time and current rating, and not be able to get a sniff of a job as their is some 22 year old willing to pay to sit in the right seat and work for a packet of crisps and a sandwich per day, whilst also remain outside the remit of Balpa, and then crying when the poo hits the fan and permenant contracts are withdrawn. My genuine sympathies go to those globespan/virgin/excel etc.guys and gals still waiting to find employment and their current plight. I hope the new year brings you the justice you deserve and hope Balpa manage to get their act together and stop all this.

[stansdead]

75 hours will get you nowhere anyway. It's absolutely the MINIMUM experience.

[TheBeak]

What has been described here is nothing especially new...

That's what they could have said about telegrams and then came telephones and e mail. That's what they could have said about horses and cars and then came along cars. That's what the said about slavery......and now it's coming back through peoples indifference and self preservation.

411A I really couldn't care a less if you have flown all the DCs from 2 to 10 and all the Boeings from 707 to 787. I could care a less if you are the Chief Pilot of BA, where BA stands for British Airways or Bugger All. I couldn't care a less if you have 200 hours or 200000 hours......you get the picture. You are well respected on these forums and your posts are specifically some of the posts, if I see them next to a new post, that I make an 'effort' to read. You are clearly one of the more experienced of us. You clearly have/ had some power with an airline. For you to have the attitude towards this that you have, demonstrates why we are so deep in the sh1t.

Don't have the cash to pony up, or....do not desire to do so?
Find another way to make a living/find another profession.


So the 19 year old blonde girl called Tattie next to you with the big cans and the desire to be srogged up in 4 years, who has a dad who is a director at Nomura and will pay anything his little girl wants (regardless of the fact the price apparently went up when the unprecedented, ludicrous demand for it was seen), just so she can be yet another empowered woman to reserve her full time seat in an airline and then work part time (and that's nothing against women, I am of all people am not sexist and this thread doesn't need to go down that road - it's just a powerful example to my mind) versus the guy with 1000 hours VC-10 time flying in the RAF, 800 hours flying A320s and a couple of kids is left high and dry, without a job and without a chance because......wait for it......he wont 'pony up the cash'. Nice. Is this what Darwin was talking about when he said 'only the strong will survive'? If you think so then his words have gone right over your head. Someone elses wealth is artificial strength. Its need shows your weakness. He also flexibility and adaptability is paramount to 'survival'. He didn't mean like this. This is like when a cat toys with its prey and then doesn't eat it. Not being flexible.

company management couldn't care less.

They will do when their crews, that are meant to work to a 30 minute turn around all of a sudden seem to be going slower. Or their crews develop some nuts and refuse to work until they are paid their worth.

411A, I am assuming you have been in this game a while. Have you not seen that your salary in the early 90s was about 80K a year and now......in just shy of 2010 it is......80K a year......if you are lucky. And going backwards. Nevermind, it would require you to make a difference for the future. Yet you'll so happily recycle plastic milk bottles as part of the Kyoto agreement. I'm going to let you in to a secret, but shhhhh, you are making the square root of f all difference to anything and if you would just be flexible from your current age old mindset and strong with it you might find you can make a positive difference, together with your fellow, job loving piloting workforce. I ask you all again, PLEASE do not accept this. Easyjet pilots, don't just think you're doing your bit by posting on here, it's not enough, as 411A rightly points out, airline management don't care......in fact they probably love it. If they aren't frightened by what you can do, show them what effect it will have when you don't do something. Abscence makes the heart grom fonder and all that.

This is a very unstable situation, that is, when displaced from its neutral point it will continue on in this direction until someone or some people act on it and correct it. It needs rectifying - before it's happened. What am I saying, these guys have probably started TRs haven't they?

Norman sorry I should have quoted what I was replying with metaphors to.

The little rich kids who Daddy saw all right are a relatively small part of this. clanger32 and others are faced with no other way into aviation and are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. Even Oxford Aviation has stuffed them in taking part in this shameful exercise. This is like blaming child prostitutes in Thailand for taking the 'work' and thereby creating the business.

Is the bit I was refering to. You remove one of the parties and there is no 'Tango' to be danced. Be the big man/ woman and say no to this.

[MIKECR]

"clanger32 and others are faced with no other way into aviation and are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea."

Is it not the case that the people signing up to this scheme would have started integrated training 12 - 18 months ago when the world was already heading full steam into the biggest recession we've seen for decades. Theyre now saying they cant get a job in aviation??:confused:

There is another way in, its called modular training at half the price. It leaves one with half the debt and without the need to find a jet job asap in order to start repaying huge loan payments. Hindsight perhaps, but the writing was on the cards 2 years ago that there would be no flying jobs around in 2009(and probably none for another 2 years).

[wind check]

guys, don't cry, it is the same sh1t everywhere.

Welcome to Global Pilot Training Center (http://www.globalpilottraining.com/)


:}

[TheBeak]

How many of these Oxford numptys are getting an A320 TR with a whole 75 hours as their main Christmas present from Santa? Pathetic.

[hollingworthp]

"clanger32 and others are faced with no other way into aviation and are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea."

Is it not the case that the people signing up to this scheme would have started integrated training 12 - 18 months ago when the world was already heading full steam into the biggest recession we've seen for decades.

Nope - I trained with Clanger and we started in early Aug 2007 - before even NR headed south and we signed up for the course around March 2007. You would have to be a dedicated follower of economics to be in a position to say "No thanks, not for me" back then.

The scam - sorry should that read Scheme? - of OAA is open to those who graduated up to 18 months ago which would be people who started as long ago as 2006.

[MIKECR]

Yeah im referring to people who would have started integrated training within the last 18 months to 2 years. The writing on the wall was blatantly obvious for people to see. Mid 2007 and things were still quite rosey.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

MIKECR - your comments are misplaced and not helpful to anyone. Let us say that one accepts your argument, and I do not, that the modular route is the way to go. What job will a modular pilot now find himself in the running for that clanger32 would not? Let me help you with the answer - absolutely none. There fact is that the only way into aviation right now is through these hideous schemes that are under discussion - their way or the highway.

411A - as a near-professional PPRuNer I am surprised to find you weighing in here on matters that you manifestly know so little aboout. Indeed only the other day I read you proudly never, ever set foot on UK soil to avoid our security staff and all the stress contact with them brings. The key thing you have missed here is that coughing up the cash does not guarantee you a job - it merely gives you a couple of years as a captain's mate at the front end of an airliner. Once your time is up you are replaced by the next candidate and therefore will never actually have a permanent job of any kind. Hardly a career move.

flapsfullretard - the feeling on the line about this dire scheme is extremely anti. Slightly oddly though, I understand that among next year's temporary FOs will be a number of BMI FO's who have been kicked out of LHR. I cannot verify that but at a recent meeting such a possibility was suggested. I genuinely wish you well in this very uncertain time. Very best of good fortune to you.

[MIKECR]

Sorry, I disagree Norman. These schemes are not the only way into aviation. The 'self improver'(whatever you want to call it these days) route still very much exists.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

MIKECR - You are, of course entitled to disagree. How then, with your modular licence in hand, do you become an Airbus-rated First Officer at easyJet without the scheme under discussion? Because right now there is no other way into easyJet or Ryanair.

[handflown]

God you lot are bloody boring.

Find something fun to talk about its Christmas.

:ok:

[MIKECR]

Norman,

We could have a play on words here if you like. I was speaking about getting into "aviation" in general. That world of course, as we both know, stretches much further than Ryanair and easyjet. There are other shows in town that people aspire to, and not everyone has to be pigeon holed into this particular route. From what im seeing just now, the people(first job types) who are getting PAID flying jobs(the few that exist) at the moment are the self improver or young instructor types who are getting turboprop airline work.

[The African Dude]

Handflown... if you could just treat water for me while I hop out and celebrate, that'd be grand! :}

[TheBeak]

Norman, I think you are both pulling in different directions - because you sound like you have given up despite some of your words. Mike still sounds defiant against this crap. Norman, you don't owe anyone anything apart from yourself and your family if you have one. But, since you are one of the more vocal and approachable Easy trainers on here (though all trainers I know in person at Easy are very, very, very, very nice people) can I please ask, if there is any way, any how, you can try and stay focussed on this, don't lose energy on it, please do something otherwise I fear myself and my colleagues and the futures of proper people who wish to become, and continue to be a pilot for an airline, are numbered because of the selfish, mother-:mad:ing, cras, selfish, terribly thick, useless shells of human beings that wish to pursue this 'scheme'. If you possibly can please do your best to not let it happen it would be very well appreciated and very well respected. There has to at the very least be some middle ground.

Did you not hear what Clanger said? After offering this sh1t and seeing the unprecedented, ludicrous, laughable amount of desperate lemmings that displayed an interest, the terms dropped and the price went up.

No one lose energy on this, you'll be as good as a quitter. Don't stand by and let bad things happen. Don't just accept this crap.

[411A]

411A, I am assuming you have been in this game a while. Have you not seen that your salary in the early 90s was about 80K a year and now......in just shy of 2010 it is......80K a year......if you are lucky. And going backwards.

In the game awhile, yes...a very long time.
As for the salary, sorry, no.
It increases every year simply because the type I presently fly has very few still currently active FD crew available (especially experienced Captains) so...what I demand, I get.

Airline bosses have figured out a long time ago that they can screw(salary, training-wise) the new guys/gals, and get away with it.
Repeatedly.

It is unlikely to change, in the short-medium term.
My advice?
Get used to it.

[smith]

I am led to believe that Loganair have just put three FI's from Tayside Aviation on a TR for the SAAB, so what mikecr says could be right:ok:

[captplaystation]

Tayside Aviation ! ! at last a little bit of "feelgood" factor for Crimbo. I guess the "Gillespie factor" is alive and well? or they just recognised the calibre of the folk from there :rolleyes: :D he says , ever so modestly.

To all that passed by Lovats hallowed hangar, all the best for 2010. :ok:


Sorry, seriously off topic there. . . . BTW, Norman ,try and forget all this horrible horrible stuff at least long enough to get trashed for Christmas, like a "real" Scotsman ;)

[RoyHudd]

The best thing that could happen in 2010 is that CTC, OAA, Eagle Jet and the other rip-off merchants all go to the wall. The airlines would then be forced to slowly re-absorb the experienced pilots over the next 5-6 years. T & C's would gradually stop declining too.

Aside from the irrelevant concept of fairness, there exists a gross imbalance in experience between left and right seat in many of the today's carriers, and consequently safety is threatened. There is no more room for inexperienced type-rated pilots, quite the reverse. Yet still they come.

No airline will voluntarily hire more expensive employees as First Officers when the possibility exists to make money from people who although qualified have zero experience and precious little airmanship to fall back on. (Even the talented ones.)

Sully got it right, but as an American, his views carry little weight with the biased and avaricious UK media. The state of play today is increasing danger for the airline passenger, caused by greed of the training organizations, airlines, and ultimately passengers. Stelios and O'Leary have much to answer for. And the world is not about to reverse it's catastrophic direction.

I fear that it will take a few aviation disasters before my wish starts to come true.

[ROSCO328]

Flapsfullretard,

I think you know that Easy have a long list of people chapping on the door so I wouldn't hold your breath.

[alpha.charlie]

Without doubt, we have one of the strongest cultures of any airline. We think it's because we set out to do it our way - to be individual and unique rather than copy the format that has been adopted by so many other carriers.
Safety - Our number one priority, no compromises
Teamwork - We'll get there faster together
Pioneering - Breaking the mould to find new ways and new opportunities
Passionate - We're ambitious to be the best we can be
Integrity - We mean what we say and we do it!:confused:

[ROSCO328]

Yeah have to agree with the above, even seeing it on a screen you still get a strong smell of BULLS**T. Now if you put COST above safety and drop the integrity we have the actual 5 toothpicks of Easy.:=:=:=:(

[Doug the Head]

Slavery? No, it is not forced upon so you cannot call it slavery. I only partly agree. As Johann Wolfgang von Goethe once said about slavery: None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free...

Sure, you are 'free' to sign a bad deal but the problem is that people don't get the full picture because of all this bullsh!t propaganda about "integrity," "teamwork" and "passionate."

As I've been preaching for years: this is not a career airline, a fact which is crystal clear to anyone who is able to look beyond the orange propaganda and bullsh!t.

Unfortunately it appears that some people want to be brainwashed, some people want to be enslaved and some people want to cling onto the hope that 'good cop' Andy will make all the bad cops go away. Keep on hoping! As we all know: hope dies last... :oh:

I hate to say "I told you so" but hey, here it goes: I TOLD YOU SO!!!

[Wingswinger]

None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free...

He may have pinched the sentiment from Jean Jacques Rousseau.

" Man was born free, and he is everywhere in chains. Those who think themselves the master of others are indeed greater slaves than they."

The Social Contract 1762

[stansdead]

First of all, Pilots who run airlines.....

.....then pilots who want to run airlines, who are, really, philosophers.

"we're doomed!!!!!!" - Fraser, "Dad's Army", BBC circa 1979.

[Caudillo]

Safety - Noun
Teamwork - Noun
Pioneering - Gerund
Passionate - Adjective
Integrity - Noun

Very smooth. Who rites this? Illiterates?

[jeroom]

deleted for use of no nonsense.

[al446]

.....then pilots who want to run airlines, who are, really, philosophers.As opposed to one who will happily quote from a hackneyed telly programme, a real scholar.

Very smooth. Who rites this? Illiterates?

Priceless.:D

[stansdead]

al446,

It's called irony you saddo.

What's up? Loan repayments getting on top of you?

[wanabe2010]

tell me guys,

how do you get the money for integrated and easyjet scheme?

60k+30+10 or 15K for food...over 100k?

how do you pay back and when?
what banks give you the money knowing the student will probably file bankrupt.

what's the point to fly 70 hours and be out? to go where? KLM, BA, Luft???

explain me!

[Doug the Head]

explain me!Well, DUH! That's the whole point Sherlock! If this needs explaining, then you are either missing some IQ points, or you are just perfect for the average low-cost airline! ;)

p.s. isn't it marvelous how airlines can mix the contradicting requirements for safe aircraft operators on one hand, yet on the other hand want people to be totally reckless with zero situational awareness when it comes to money and T&C's? :ugh:

[TheBeak]

It's pointless bitching about this, the morons will have already begun their TRs. It's done. Close the thread. You missed the boat Easyjet big guns. It's very much your loss.

[fischerflyer]

I have advised all of my family and friends not to fly with the airlines that do pay to fly such as mytravel, bmi etc.

Will be adding easyjet to that list.

Whats to stop some rich daddys boy from nigeria throwing a ton of money at such a scheme and getting potentially dangerous people sat at the front of british airliners!? MADNESS!!!!

[stansdead]

Agree totally. Perhaps the letter will look like this? - try and read in a West African scammers accent if you can;



Dear Sir Mr Wanabee,

Felicitations and most generous blessings to you and your gracious family at this most Christmas time.

It brings to me great honour to inform you that you have been selected as a winner in the easyJet Airlines plc, pay to fly, grand lottery (UK inc.).

The winners of this scheme do stand to the glorious benefit of Many, countless, millions of riches in British Pounds, Euros and maybe other currencies.

To avail yourself of these bountiful glories, you must first process to me a payment of £34,000. After the succesful process of your funds, the money milking training establishment at easyJet airlines plc/OAA will send you your entry to Nirvana continually in the abundant shape of an empty Airbus A319 rating.

The glorious and beneficial holder to this glorious adornment to the blue book will have the full right to be an easyJet contract pilot!!! Imagine!!! The terms and conditions are most excellent indeed!!! Nowhere in my imagination can I believe I can sleep 3 to a room. Only 3!! Such bountiful, blessed luck from the Lord.

Anyway, most best regards to you and I look forward to sharing with you, your most deserved and hard earned rewards from all your years of travails and labours to now.

With my prevailing best regards and soft landings (for me anyway),


Mr A.Leech

Spokesman, OAA Scheming Department

Please send remittance in British Currency to:

The Managing Director
Oxford Cash Bank
Kidlington
Oxon

Acc:12345678
S/C: 34-000.00
Ref: Mugs


Risk disclaimer: Please most definitely, please ignore this letter if:

a) You have any experience of previous scams;
b) you have recovered the use of your sanity after being brainwashed, or;
c) can spot a really **** deal at 1000 paces with your back turned and eyes shut.

[JW411]

Just to get a bit of balance into this discussion; I have been involved in the training of a couple of Nigerian pilots in the past.

One of them, a particularly good bloke, got his command after a few years.

Last I heard, he was sitting in the left seat with easyJet.

I hope he enjoys reading the above posting.

[stansdead]

JW411,

I think Fischerflyer is far from wrong honestly.

Where does this all stop? Did your Nigerian students come already selected by an airline, or with a sack full of cash?

That's the point. It doesn't matter about nationality, colour, race, creed, sexuality or looks. It should be about ability, not ability to pay.

If you're honest with yourself, and us, you'd probably agree.

[JW411]

Neither of my Nigerians came with "a sack full of cash" as you you so nicely put it.

We (the Company) type-rated them free of charge as was the norm in those days.

What I am trying to say to you, is do be careful about tarring everyone with the same brush.

My man came from a fairly humble background (his father was a fireman) and he got to where he got by his own balls and hard work.

[stansdead]

JW411,

You don't get it do you? You obviously only read what you want to see.

I did ask "Did your Nigerian students come already selected by an airline, or with a sack full of cash?", not just the bit about a sack full of cash.

But, don't let your wanting to make a point get in the way of the debate, please.

As I pointed out, anyone can pay, if they have the money. Not everyone can be SELECTED, like your mate.

Don't paint me to be a racist or a bigot. It's not about Nigerians. It's about sh1tty quality Pilots ruining all our futures. (Just noted your age and edited - apologies).

Read my posts properly, not just the bits you feel like looking at. The art of a good trainer, surely?

[JW411]

Stansdead:

I am having a lot of difficulty getting through to you, or so it would appear:

"Did you Nigerian students come already selected by an airline, or with a sack full of cash".

You obviously have not even begun to get the hang of what I am trying to tell you. They neither came "already selected by an airline" nor "with a sack full of cash".

They were hired by us (a UK airline) in direct competition with everybody else in the world who responded to an advertisement in Flight International etc. They were interviewed and hired in the normal manner as was every other candidate.

They paid not one iota towards their training nor did we expect them to.

"Read my posts properly, not just the bits you feel like looking at. The art of a good trainer, surely".

Learn to read, dear boy, learn to read and absorb. Always engage brain before opening mouth. Also learn to listen. Listening is much more important than preaching.

[TheBeak]

JW411 why, oh why, would you comment like that? Let 'them' fight their own battles will you? Not enough problems of your own? Stansdead made a funny and pretty apt stab at the problem and used a 'strong' image to depict it. Stick to retirement and supporting the Labour party will you and leave us to debate the future of our wishy washy, sell to the highest bidder career.

If 'your' Nigerian doesn't like reading the above post then he has paranoia. You'd better phone up Channel 4 and tell them how appauled you are with their hilarious phonejacker. Or is that ok because it was someone who wasn't white that did it?

Can we please continue to discuss the other tripe that is OAA and Easyjets partnership now please?

[JW411]

Just to set the record straight, I have NEVER, NEVER, NEVER voted for the Labour Party.

In fact, Little Boy Blue "Wavering" Cameron is too left of the mark for me to ever vote Conservative again.

It will have to be something like UKIP next time. I am totally and utterly fed up with tree-huggers, elfin safety and the PC industry.

[fischerflyer]

My point was that you can get on an easyjet flight deck through ability to pay (just like the bmi/mytravel schemes).

In light of the recent revelations about a nigerian national trying to blow up an airliner, why doesnt Al Queada send some radicalised rich boys to OAA - buying them onto the flightdeck - where they get their hands on what is effectively a 55Tonne missle with 150 souls on board...

[TheBeak]

Ok, good man, apologies for that aspect of my post. You'll understand that Stans post was humerous, not intended to upset and given as a stark example of the state of the problem.

[RAT 5]

I'm not fully conversent wth the fine details of said CTC/EZ scheme. However, is it not that OAA are an independant flight training organisation. Do they care a toss who their output works for? Do they care if there is even a job for them at then end of it all? There could be a major upturn, or down-turn in 12 months time. In the meantime OAA need cash flow. That is their raison d'etre. Degrading T's & C's for airline pliots is surely the least of their worries. Some will say that if their is a dilution of T's & C's they will have less students to train and thus will be hit. That is in the far far future and, as we all know, financiers are short-term people. The near horizon at ground level is as far as they think; if they see beyond the end of their noses.

[stansdead]

JW411,

This could run and run. My whole point about your "Nigerians" being selected is that they were just that. Selected by an airline AFTER going through due procedure sto ensure they were the right people for the jobs in hand.

On that, you and I agree. Even though you just can't see it.

Anyway, let's move on.

OAA and easyJet need to be brought into line. So do CTC.

[JW411]

I think that part of the problem is that some of the tree huggers out there have is that they still imagine that Oxford Air Training consists of the nice chaps at Kidlington who used to train equally nice chaps to join BA some 20-odd years ago.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that OAT joined forces with GCAT to join up and absorb the likes of SAS Academy in Arlanda etc etc to become a rather large conglomerate.

As such, you are naive if you expect the resultant organisation to not go for every contract that they can get their hands on in a global market.

I once worked for George Bachelor, who was the original American redneck. He told me one day that it is simply not possible to become a billionaire by being nice to people.

He was probably right.

[stansdead]

Maybe so. Another saying is that no-one ever went bust by making a profit.

However, this is all a horribly short term view.

It is incumbent on the industry (us, before anyone asks) making it plainly obvious to anyone who'll take notice that this wretched process should stop.

It won't take long for OAA/CTC/GECAT/easyJet to realise it's a bad idea if people just stop signing up.

OAA are cannibalising their own business. And, JW411, before you tell me you trained a couple of those "nice" chaps in the past....don't:E

[JW411]

Stansdead:

I have never worked for OAA or any similar organisation. I have only ever trained for the RAF and in the airline companies that I have worked for.

Apart from that, I have sent many young men solo and trained many an instructor (during my spare time - for 17 years) in the world of gliding.

[HundredPercentPlease]

RAT 5, does this help?

APPFirstOfficerPlus


AIRLINE OPPORTUNITY UPDATE

In my last message, only last Friday, I was unable to give you much by way of detail concerning the scheme on which we are working. Well, as you can see, even a few days can make a lot of difference, and no doubt the most obvious and important one you will already have noticed, namely the fact that we can now confirm that the airline involved is easyJet and the name of our new scheme is called APPFirstOfficerPlus

Given easyJet's reputation, I am sure you will not need me to emphasise the real value and quality of any scheme in which this airline is involved. OAA is delighted to be able to work with easyJet, and of course with our sister company, Parc Aviation, to put together a programme which will enable APPFO graduates to gain a flying appointment on the A320 aircraft. As I stated previously, I am aware that any such scheme which involves self-funding further training will rule out some well-qualified graduates. However, we believe it is in the interests of our graduates generally to facilitate such opportunities with enthusiasm; especially so in the current market.

The fact that you are receiving this update means that you have registered an initial interest in the scheme. Needless to say, we have received a considerable number of applications, well over 100, from which we are currently looking for 20 to enter type training in the New Year. As a reminder, the purpose of this e-mail is to give you more information to enable you to decide whether to confirm you still wish to be considered, and you need to do this by 1200 hrs on Thursday. The tight timescale is being driven by easyJet's keen requirement to conduct an interview programme on 5th/6th January.

Before going further, there is one additional key fact which I need to bring to your attention; this concerns the line training hours (LFUS) associated with the scheme. In my last message I indicated that 50 hrs was the figure, but the airline has now confirmed that you will be required to complete around 75 hours of LFUS (about 46 sectors) before you will be able to undertake a line proficiency check. As it is only after successfully passing this check that you can gainfully be employed and therefore start earning remuneration, the extension is obviously important, but it does mean that the overall cost of the scheme, including an allowance for some minor issues such as uniforms, Safety Equipment Procedures training (SEP), ID checks etc, will be £34,000 (inc VAT), which is higher than I presented to you last week. I trust the increase will not deter you from applying, and I can also advise that, should you require more than 75 hours to qualify to line proficiency check standard, then easyJet will not require you to make any further investment. This safeguard, added to the fact that I have already advised you OAA will extend your APPFO Skills Security to cover the type training delivered by us, represents a significant extension to the financial guarantee against training risk which you received during the whole of your ab initio training with OAA.

'Employment' for this scheme will be through Parc Aviation, and thus your eventual contract will be with them rather than through easyJet. In practice, you will actually be counted as self-employed and will be paid by Parc on the basis of the LFUs you complete with the airline. Your basic payment per LFU will be of the order of £50 during the first 12 months, increasing thereafter. In theory, you could be asked to work up to 900 hrs per year, although you would be highly unlikely to achieve this level in Year 1. As in any pool scheme of this nature, there is no legal obligation on the airline to provide you with flying after completion of the line training mentioned above. That said, from an airline viewpoint a primary purpose of the scheme is to ensure their supply of pilots, so you have reason for confidence that you will be used subject to satisfactory completion of line training and, as you are undoubtedly aware, similar schemes are in use already for other airlines in addition to easyJet.

Because the arrangement through Parc Aviation is complex, and as it is clearly important that you know exactly what you are signing up to, I have asked Sean Butler, Parc's Director of Sales & Marketing, to hold a briefing session for you at Oxford. This will take place in our lecture theatre on Tuesday 22nd December. Provisionally, this will start at 1200 hrs, but we will confirm exact time shortly. The session will last no more than a couple of hours; Ian Cooper, Oxford's Head of Training Development & Resources, and who will be overseeing your type training progression, will also cover the planned training sequence at the same session.

Obviously, not all of you wilt be able to attend the briefing, so we will be making further written information available, but I recommend you try to make it to Oxford on that date if at all possible. Please advise us whether you will be able to come when you confirm that you still wish to proceed with your application.

As a reminder, the table below highlights the key dates of which you need to take note, with the ones in bold indicating actions required by you; there are minor changes only from the summary I sent you previously:

December 2009

> Confirm application Applicant 1200hrs Thursday 17th
> Recommendations Board OAA Friday 18th
> Notify Selected Candidates OAA Monday 21st
> Briefing on employment scheme Parc Aviation Tuesday 22nd
> Confirm funds available and place deposit Applicant 1200hrs Thursday 24th
> Notify airlines of selected candidates OAA Wednesday 30th



January 2010

> Last date for withdrawal from the scheme Applicant
> Airline Interviews (Luton) easyJet
> Airline Interviews (Luton) continued easyJet
> Selections Confirmed to OAA easyJet
> Successful Applicants notified OAA
> Training Costs payable by first group Applicant
> First Group starts type training OAA
March 2010
> First Group available for base/line training easyJet
April 2010
> Last Group available for base/line training easyJet


1000hrs Monday 4th

Tuesday 5th Wednesday 6th Friday 8th Monday 11th

Thursday 14th


Friday 29th

Monday 29th


Monday 26th.




As you can see, the interviews with easyJet will take place at Luton. You should take note that they will last for up to 1.5 hours, with about 30 minutes of this focussing on what the airline describes as 'generic technical questions.' Some time spent between now and then brushing up on those ground training notes you hoped had been left behind for ever could therefore be time well spent. You should also, of course, ensure you are up to speed on the aviation industry generally as well as easyJet specifically. You will probably think I am pointing out the obvious but, regrettably, I have seen too many examples of good quality applicants missing job opportunities due to inadequate interview preparation. Being an APPFO graduate has got you this opportunity but you have still to convince easyJet that you are the person they are seeking, so sound preparation is key. We will, by the way, be sending 24 candidates for interview, but only 20 will go forward for training, so you must not assume that you will automatically be successful if your name goes forward to easyJet.

So far as the A320 type training is concerned, this will be undertaken at either our Gatwick or Heathrow centres. OAA instructors will cover the first 44 hrs with the remaining 8 being completed by easyJet themselves; all training will be using airline specific procedures. I will give more information on this, and subsequent activities including base and line training, when we notify successful applicants on Monday 21st .

On the issue of funding, a reminder also that although you have already provided written assurance that you have the funds available; given the increase now identified could you please reiterate your assurance as part of the confirmation that you still wish to continue with the application. You must also be able to pay the 10% deposit (£3,400) no later than 1200 hrs on Thursday 24th.

Please e-mail your confirmation response either to:[email protected] or to:[email protected]. As before, should you have any queries, then please feel free to include them with your e-mail, but we cannot guarantee an immediate response; please do not make telephone enquires at this stage as the staff here do not have the capacity to handle them whilst undertaking the considerable amount of administration associated with setting up this scheme.

I trust the above information will give you all you need to know at this stage. You will, I am sure, understand that the very tight time constraints, allied to the fact that final details of the scheme have yet to be confirmed between OAA, Parc Aviation and easyJet, necessarily limits what we can tell you at any given point, but I will provide further updates as we progress.

APPFirstOfffcerPlus does represent a new and worthwhile opportunity for you and we will be working with you over the next few weeks to ensure a successful launch.

Mike Langley
Director - Commercial & Employment Services

Oxford Aviation Academy
Oxford Airport, Kidlington OX5 1QX

'Parc Oxford

[stansdead]

JW411,

You and I are on differing humour wavelengths. I meant don't tell me you trained "cannibals"....

Let's move on.

[fischerflyer]

which is higher than I presented to you last week. I trust the increase will not deter you from applying

talk about MILKING the money off these poor students!!! :=

[diver69]

OAA must clearly be in SERIOUS trouble to be supporting this............desperation??? Or is this how they see the market place developing for their product (newly qualified (f)ATPL's).......either way it ain't good news for ANY of us in this industry.....wannabee or 10,000 hrs+ .......

I urge any wannabee considering entering flying training to speak informally to three, just three, actual operating airline pilots from ANY airline ANYWHERE before investing in training at this time. I suspect you will find our take on the industry is somewhat different from the spin you will be fed by the large FTO's........

Read HundredPercentPlease's post again please. THAT is what you will be looking forward to.......if you are one of the 'lucky' 20.......and over 100 applied from OAA.......

Good God.......

Please note - this is not a dig at newly qualified pilots that find themselves in a desperate situation, but simply an attempt to stop any wannabees getting themselves in a situation they had not forseen.

[diver69]

As it is only after successfully passing this check that you can gainfully be employed and therefore start earning remuneration

Quote refers to needing 75 hours line training on this scheme and passing final line check

Emmmm - No Mr OAA. Airlines legally require 2 pilots to operate an aircraft. As soon as you have a TR (which includes base training, ie take off and landings) and have satisfied a training Captain that he/she is happy to fly with you without a safety pilot then you are a revenue generating pilot, because that aeroplane can not operate without somebody (ie you) in the RHS - even though you are new, and need supervision by a senior pilot - you are an active, trained, qualified airline pilot that has a qualification to land the aeroplane...........so in almost every airline in the world, the pilots that have reached this standard are paid........in most airlines you are paid even while a safety pilot is present.........and that is (o god...... was) a basic VERY basic industry standard.........

[Skyhigh86]

APPFirstOfficerPlus

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA THAT HAS MADE MY DAY!!

Sounds just like the flying equivalent of PASSPLUS, although doing your driving PASSPLUS course would be much more useful than this.

Guys and Gals of OAA i urge you to turn this down, its an abysmal offering.

DONT PAY TO FLY FOR PASSENGER TRANSPORT, YOU HAVE A CPL; USE IT FOR ITS PURPOSE.

[Hansard]

OAA's update reads like cheap, scammy marketing for the masses, selling jobs like you would sell double-glazing or 2-for-1 sofas......and as for "FirstOfficerPlus".....if you didn't fall over laughing, you'd cry..........."JobCentrePlus", anyone?.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

you will be required to complete around 75 hours of LFUS (about 46 sectors) before you will be able to undertake a line proficiency check

Norman, is this right? Over here we don't even hold a cadet up for his very first progress check before 60 sectors, with 80 as a target for his check to line. Oh, and ours start earning as soon as they shed the safety pilot, at minimum 12 sectors, commonly 20ish. But then we want the good ones.

I must say, this has the whiff of something rather foul about it. Thinking more broadly, is it, do you think, beyond the reach of reason to imagine an aspirant CEO laying a short-term money earner at the heels of moribund organisations as a means of currying favour for any future promotion of his own self?

http://www.detikfinance.com/images/content/2009/02/24/4/mandala-ceo-dalam.jpg

Perish the thought.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Leo - alas it is all totally correct. I am becoming a Rayanair fan more and more by the day - we have managed to surpass them on the road to ruination at every level. Quite an achievement I know, but after enormous effort we seem to have gone lower than Ryanair. I used to think such a thing was not possible, but I am being proven wrong daily.

We actually agree on so much. What we do not agree on is the solution. The people who are being left alone, relatively speaking, at easyJet are the current pilots - largely due to the fear of taking on BALPA directly. Sadly, the company are currently successfully circumventing BALPA through parc and others. The battle continues however, and there is a lot of water to go under the bridge. I believe a major confrontation is coming unless there is a rapid changearound. I will fight any day over this one, and it is apparent that this view is shared by many of my colleagues. Watch this space.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year old mate.

[captplaystation]

Leo, tis the season of good will and all that, but did you have to post THAT picture, please please I really prefer the meerkats. . . and by a big margin.
Reptiles were never my preference. :=

BTW Bonne Année to the Leo's & Norm's of this world, it would be a bit bereft of eloquent prose witoutcha guys. :ok:

[Clandestino]

as you are undoubtedly aware, similar schemes are in use already for other airlines in addition to easyJet.

Errrr... I'm acutely unaware of any other similar scheme save Brookfield/Ryanair. So what are the other airlines that OAA Director - Commercial & Employment Services is referring to?

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

largely due to the fear of taking on BALPA directly.
Ah Norman, there are so few things as charming, so closely beguiling as those as plucked from being in the company of the truly devoted, as you, my dear old friend, so clearly are. Do you really imagine Mousaka Inc. to be frightened of BLAPA? Truly? The best thing you could do for them is to ground your entire fleet by strike for the rest of the winter. You do see that it would at once, both minimise their losses and strengthen their hand?

You and I both know the ghosts of winters past, and so let's just say the best interests of your beloved Orangemen are well served by a clear and unfussy interregnum. Brady is a smart man, more capable than many give him credit for, but all of this you're currently anguishing over is little more, I fear, than a pissing contest between the two aspirants, principal. The one you know, the other (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/financial-chief-quits-troubled-aer-lingus-1969536.html) you don't.

When we meet, I'll give you the dirt on both...privately of course. It'll be juicy.

My sincere compliments of the season to you too, Norman, and may I offer you the peace of the Word made Man.

Since that incorigible rogue, Playstation, has poked his head in, and knowing how much he shares my love of the old languages, a little something for you both, from Pervigilium Veneris, the Vigil of Venus.

cras amet qui nunquam amavit; quique amavit, cras amet

Leo.

[Herc708]

This OAA deal is disgusting - makes the crooks at Ryanair and CTC look good! !

The only solution is for the CAA to mandate that 0'hrs FATPL's require their training up to first Line Check to be completed on a simulator - that's what the Level 'D' simulators are for!

There is a huge risk to the travelling public with this process

[RED WINGS]

Oxford have actually offered these schemes for a long time! At least 5 years ago they offered it in asociation with GECAT (I believe for Ryanair). I assume now GECAT own Oxford its an area they are likely to expand.

Fischer flyer, I wish everyone took the stand of not flying with pay to fly pilot driven airlines. Sadly the only ones I can think of in the UK are Flybe and BA, can anyone think of any others that still dont charge for ratings??

Oh I guess Monarch on the rare time they take on direct entry rather than CTC cadets.

[TheBeak]

Sorry, what's your point Red Wings? People should go for this scheme?

[flying headbutt]

EZY has brought people in over the years via various TRTOs such as GECAT and the Dutch Europilot scheme. The BIG difference is that these people joined as direct entry pilots on a FULL SALARY, FO/SFO as appropriate, no TRSS deductions for five years. Shock Horror that pilots should actually get PAID for doing their job.

The Americans have woken up to the dangers, until we do, aviation as a viable career path in the UK/Europe will effectively be dead for the majority who don't want to work for slave wage terms and conditions.:ugh:

[Vanpilot]

You could all just stop paying for these schemes :O I know its hard to get that first job, but there has to be a point when you guys all say thats enough. When you get to the cockpit ,you won't enjoy it if your £60k+ in debt to the bank and getting paid :mad: money. It's just a job don't forget that and think before you give your money to these schools.

Its hard but have some self pride

Good luck

[UAV689]

The interesting thing is that eventually by pushing these schemes OAA are going to have to drop their prices for their courses.

Hopefully the zoombies will wake up (or banks), see the t+c's are massivly decreased, hence the supply for new muppets at OAA's doors will decline, putting them in more trouble. They work on the promise of massive salaries when you pass, when people realise that is not the case anymore what is their selling point then?

Its a shame the CAA are nothing more than an admin office and have no power intervene, these schemes could have big safety issues.

[veetwo]

Can we just clarify something.

The cost to the student for the TR + line training is circa £35k. Is this paid entirely by the student? Or does Easyjet / Parc pay the majority and then subsequently subtract money from the quoted £50/ block hour as payment?

Ie, are these guys gonna be taking home £50/ block hour... or something much less?

V2

[stansdead]

Who cares? It's an awful deal either way.

But, I think the student pays. That's the whole point........:ugh::ugh:

[socrates]

V2

There's a bit of a clue in langleys letter:

On the issue of funding, a reminder also that although you have already provided written assurance that you have the funds available; given the increase now identified could you please reiterate your assurance as part of the confirmation that you still wish to continue with the application. You must also be able to pay the 10% deposit (£3,400) no later than 1200 hrs on Thursday 24th.

Looks like they have to stump up the cash upfront.

As for this comment:

and I can also advise that, should you require more than 75 hours to qualify to line proficiency check standard, then easyJet will not require you to make any further investment.

How many hours is acceptable for that then? :ugh:

[veetwo]

socrates,

Yeah, I did see that part of Langley's post. However, there are differing reports about what happens to the remaining 90%. The BALPA line is that the £50/block hour is reduced to around £25/block hour to repay the company.

Lets be clear, no one is suggesting it is a good deal either way. It is an appalling deal which no one should consider accepting. However, it is that much worse, and bankruptcy that much closer, if the latter is true.

At any rate I am writing a letter to AH, for what its worth, as he recently invited feedback on how to improve industrial relations with pilots (should be obvious really). Hence I want to be clear on the details.

V2

[Phileas Fogg]

Reading an earlier post if anybody in Orange HQ believes for one minute that any Russian or similar pilot is going to provide cheap labour then they need to get from behind their abacus and do some reseach.

I know from experience, and Russian friends, that Russians know the western world is out to exploit them and they are as demanding, if not more demanding, than western pilots.

Looking around some years ago for ICAO A310 pilots, there were A310's operating in Russia etc. Despite offering 'western' monies never managed to attract one pilot. Once Aeroflot got A320's tried to find some Russian A320 pilots, point 1. they don't want to leave Russia and, point 2. if they do then somebody is going to have to make them an offer they can't refuse and that would entail investing in a larger abacus than Orange have at present.

[WindSheer]

How long has a jet rating been 35k??

It was about 18k for a typical rating just 3 years ago!!!

[FANS]

Good point WS.

I'm guessing that it was £18k when it was just the TRO that needed to make a profit. Now you've got to feed the TROs/airline/pimps etc, who all want a nice fat profit.

This scheme gets worse by the day, and it can probably still get worse as the cadets keep signing up.

What I want to know is can anyone whose recently started one of these integrated courses even spell their own name? To sign up for one of these in the last 14 months, you've got to be retarded or so rich nothing really matters. Both qualitities that used to be kept well out of the flight deck.

rant over.

[Ivor_Novello]

I was knocked back by CTC at the interview stage in 2006.
Moved on, got a well paid job still within the aviation industry (albeit ground based) and now have enough spare cash I could finance my training upfront without going into debt and guess what... not interested anymore. Been in the industry for nearly 4 years now and like everything else, a job is a job and your life is more important after work, what you do with your time, friends and family, and I look at my CTC failure as a blessing in disguise now.

Granted, watching the sunrise from 39k feet is a privilege, but then again, it wasn't meant to be, and there are pretty views from ground level too ;)

[BigNumber]

Finally my predicted 'Pay to Fly' equivalent of 'Speedy Boarding' comes to fruition.

Unlike our friends at FR, there's no 6 to 12 month queue for a TR with these boys. Indeed, nor should there be for those so willing to pay a hefty 'premium rate dowry'. I mean Fairs Fare is it not?!

In New Year 'Rupert' will start to fly for Easy Jet; and a mighty proud boast too for the family Christmas dinner table!

Hopefully, Car Park X will be utilised to maximise 'Rupert's' exposure to his adoring public on the lengthy ride to Concorde House. It may also give him chance to reflect on the 'Pay to Fly' tsunami that has destroyed industry terms and conditions, and left so many 'Real' pilots out of work.

I am sure 'Rupert' will be welcomed with 'open arms' on the line, after all, what harm has he caused? We are all just jealous that he was 'selected' as the blank canvas template for the future of the industry. Rightly so, he did so well at Oxford didn't he?! You ask his parents!

The 43 Guy's that have just been left out in the cold following the collapse of Globespan clearly had nothing to offer. (Well; not the 34K anyway.)

[Gazeem]

Watching the sunrise from FL390 probably means you've been up all night.

Or on an obscene early morning!

[BigNumber]

[[QUOTE]Or on an obscene early morning! /QUOTE]

Yep, my 4.15am this morning was not worth the sunrise.

However, 'Ruperts' coming anyway!

[Mister Geezer]

I am rather amused at some of you expressing shock and surprise at Oxford getting involved in such a scheme with easyJet. Oxford are a business and surely they have the number one intention of making money? Whilst this scheme might be questionable for some of us from a moral point of view, it is well within the realms of the law. If I was an investor in Oxford then I would be only too pleased to see them generate income from this lucrative area of the training market. It is a tough world out there and the students who get themselves into financial trouble with such schemes do so out of enrolling out of their own choice.

[BigNumber]

I don't expect many students will be 'getting themselves into financial trouble' by engaging on this scheme.

I imagine 'Rupert' has secured the cash a little closer to home, and with infinitely better terms:E. His Mum will make a great job of washing and ironing his white shirt for him too!, (I know mine does).

[Superpilot]

£35k for a A320 TR? Guess what? I paid OAA £22k earlier this year!

[BigNumber]

Ahh but you PAID didn't you "Superpilot"!!?

Haven't you heard of inflation? I believe that such 'opportunity's' are not particularly price sensitive. There is room to manoeuvre yet!

Let them spend their parents money; enjoy :}.

[Mister Geezer]

His Mum will make a great job of washing and ironing his white shirt for him too!, (I know mine does).

Not when Rupert is operating from somewhere that is no where near to Windsor! Then again - perhaps the commuting will go on Daddy's NetJets account! (sorry - could not resist!) ;)

[Hahn]

It better goes on daddy´s account because eJ won´t pay for it!

[BigNumber]

NetJets will be pleased of the business!

Perhaps a VLJ might be more appropriate, or an Avanti (as long as know one sees)

Oops, sorry wrong forum;)

Night Night.

[RAFAT]

As I stated previously, I am aware that any such scheme which involves self-funding further training will rule out some well-qualified graduates.

Sums up the despicable nature of this scheme nicely.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

If I was an investor in Oxford then I would be only too pleased to see them generate income from this lucrative area of the training market
I couldn't disagree with you more strongly, Mister Geezer.

Oxford was once known as a training establishment of excellence. In fact, it was generally regarded as one of the finest flight training establishments on earth. No longer, I fear.

That they have chosen to prostitute their brand, that most precious of all things, speaks well to the sort of callow, temporary thinking that flourishes during the course of a recession. Capital, regrettably, requires constant attention. It demands massage, reassurances, flowers, dinners out and spooning in the mornings. We've all woken up next to such creatures, I'm sure, but imagine being linked by the very DNA to such a beast!

We have to live in the world, and the world is thus?

In German, there is a phrase that describes perfectly the increasingly widespread phenomenon of flight attendants, commonly of Eastern European origin, who set their sights on fecund young men of the air, in whom they presume wealth and the possession of a golden future; as golden at least as those lovely shoulder stripes.
Streifen Jäger

It seems to me that Oxford, in acting as shills for so plainly a disreputable venture, have become stripe hunters too. One wonders at the corporate desperation, not to mention the slovenly financial ethics, that would acquiesce to so squandered an excellence as this!

Nevertheless, the Meerkat will decide.
<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/uSIKy3-mnLk&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/uSIKy3-mnLk&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

Let these hungry boys and girls come forth, let them bury their parent's investments in (and of) treasure, and then when fetched up upon the rocks of so thinly conceived relations as are these, let that then advertise the inherent value of such schemes.

There is, and always has been, a hunger in the hearts of certain young men and women to fly. This principal fact cannot be stopped by any means, but it can be exploited by the unscrupulous. Do, please, my dear young colleagues of the air, be careful in making hungry decisions that may yet be called to account upon the empty stomachs of an uncertain future, especially where they are paid for by those who love you.

Leo.

[RED WINGS]

To answer the beak, my point is Oxford have been doing these schemes a long time in various forms. Some deals better or worse than the current deal, Its no great shock they are still offering these courses.

No I dont believe anyone should sign up on them, I never have and hope I will never have to!

[Mister Geezer]

I couldn't disagree with you more strongly, Mister Geezer.

Oxford was once known as a training establishment of excellence. In fact, it was generally regarded as one of the finest flight training establishments on earth. No longer, I fear.

That they have chosen to prostitute their brand, that most precious of all things, speaks well to the sort of callow, temporary thinking that flourishes during the course of a recession. Capital, regrettably, requires constant attention. It demands massage, reassurances, flowers, dinners out and spooning in the mornings. We've all woken up next to such creatures, I'm sure, but imagine being linked by the very DNA to such a beast!

Leo, the difference is that you and I are viewing this from the outside. If I was an investor in Oxford then I would certainly be rubbing my hands with glee at this business opportunity which at £34K per candidate, is bound to be very lucrative. Oxford will never see this as them prostituting their brand as you put it. Pulling off a stunt like this with a large operator like easyJet will keep the management smiling and the ridiculous price tag that is attached will keep the financial people happy too. From a business point of view, it is a sound move since there will be an endless supply of customers who are willing to pay a ridiculous price for a Minibus type rating. I am not defending what Oxford are doing since I feel that they are exploiting vulnerable inexperienced pilots who are hungry to get strapped into an Airbus. The ethics are indeed questionable but Oxford is a business and they are there to make money. If people feel that they are prostituting their own brand then I can assure you that Oxford will not give two hoots. The queue of customers and airlines will still be constant and steady. In fact the tie up that Oxford now has with TRTO training could see more airlines being approached, which is why I fear this scheme is the tip of the iceberg.

It has been mentioned that Oxford have dipped their toe in the water with similar schemes in the past however, they were merely assisting in selecting candidates to progress to the TRTO which was not under the Oxford umbrella. This is the first occaision where by one can start with zero hours and emerge with an Airbus type rating with all the training being provided by the Oxford brand.

I would be bold enough to say that when Oxford broadened its portfolio of training facilities, it was only a matter of time until an 'oppertunity' like this was going to appear. In the eyes of Oxford management they will probably feel that they are being creative and innovative with this 'product' and to management this is just simply another training 'product'. To us it is ludicrous but to them it makes sound business sense. Finally, if it was not easyJet then another operator would be willing the void instead.

[CamelhAir]

Leo, quite what is going on that I am in total agreement with a posting of yours I do not know, but there it is with reference to your last post. Well said.

[wanabe2010]

please explain me,

if I pay the 33k or35k (whatever it costs), do they guarantee me a job?
I think they will kick me out of easyjet to let the place to another dreamer.

what kind of guaranty I have, that OAA doesn't get financially bust after my payment?
they only way for OAA to make money in this scheme is to replace pilots after their line training? so what kind of guaranty I get to not be kicked out after 1 or 2 months?

[Phileas Fogg]

Wanabe,

There is only one guarantee in life and that is that we are all going to die.

Why do guys always say 'guarantee', aside from dying nothing can be guaranteed!

[Wingswinger]

Not quite true, Phileas, but close. Taxes are guaranteed as well. Nevertheless the sentiment is valid. Nothing is guaranteed in life apart from taxes and nothing may well be what the gullible get at the end of their expensive training.

OTOH, if you want a risk-free life, don't get out of bed in the morning. :}

[R T Jones]

"There is, and always has been, a hunger in the hearts of certain young men and women to fly. This principal fact cannot be stopped by any means, but it can be exploited by the unscrupulous. Do, please, my dear young colleagues of the air, be careful in making hungry decisions that may yet be called to account upon the empty stomachs of an uncertain future, especially where they are paid for by those who love you."

Nail on head.


"if you want a risk-free life, don't get out of bed in the morning."

Well, if you don't get out of bed you could be at risk from DVT. So if you want a risk free life, don't be alive!

A cheery good morning from London :)

[Mister Geezer]

"if you want a risk-free life, don't get out of bed in the morning."

Well, if you don't get out of bed you could be at risk from DVT. So if you want a risk free life, don't be alive!

DVT.... ah. I was thinking of catching something else in bed, then again the variable here is who is in bed next to you! ;)

[FANS]

All this talk of OAA knocking their brand etc is nuts.

OAA is controlled by Star Capital. Their only interest is £. The long term future of this business is irrelevant, as they'll have sold it within a few years.

Star Capital Partners (http://www.star-capital.com/aboutUs.html)

People need to realise how ruthless these guys are - they aren't in business for for the love of flying sadly!

[Permafrost_ATPL]

To answer the beak, my point is Oxford have been doing these schemes a long time in various form

Yes, but they're getting worse every time!

Only three years ago myself and another 23 OAT graduates (Integrated and Modular) went through GECAT selection (there were not the same company then) and offered a DIRECT ENTRY First Officer position at EZY. The catch: we had to pay for the TR and base training (the latter because EZY simply had no spare capacity - the summer of hell). Cost: GBP 20K. I really had to think hard about it, but in the end went for it. I was Modular and had paid for most of the training so far from savings. It seemed acceptable.

Three years later, I have an SFO salary with Boeing and Airbus ratings and I paid the TR loan back.

Compare that with paying for 34K for a six months contract - where you only get paid when you fly. A bit worse, I would say!

P

[fischerflyer]

Is APPFirstOffcerPlus just for integrated or for modular too?

win win situation for OAA. They get a load more customers into their training centres for TRs. Then they get to show off that they got 20grads employed by easyjet - fill their brochures up with easyjet branding/marketing.... = in turn attracts more abinitio students! clever!! :E

Oh yeah and 20K to 35K in 3 years. Now thats what I call inflation!! As GECAT became OAA how do you justify a 15K increase for the same course/facilities. What did they do, refurbish the place in Gold??

[Alex Whittingham]

The Easyjet scheme appears to be open to modular students as well. At least one of my ex-students has signed up, not through OAA though.

[shaun ryder]

I say let them do it, let them waste their cash and walk away with a laughable 70 hrs or whatever it is (you will still not know your arse from your elbow in a bus after that long!). Let them believe that they can potentially gain full employment out of it after wrecking the chances for experienced crew to move between companies. Let them get used to the crap terms and conditions for which they played a major part in creating.

Let them look forward to a career in an industry where cash rules and where slimy little gits will do almost anything to get ahead. Let them have their month or two of glory playing airline pilot, enjoy while you can...:D

[Wingswinger]

People need to realise how ruthless these guys are - they aren't in business for for the love of flying sadly!

...and how young many of them look. They haven't even had the time to get some life experience. It epitomises what is wrong with the current economic model.

[one post only!]

Alex, your ex student, if they didn't go through OAA I am assuming they went through CTC. If not can you please confirm this as that makes things a bit more interesting.

Thanks

[Mister Geezer]

The million dollar question is will the easyJet CC be placing this issue on their agenda? Perhaps they are tackling it already which is fantastic if that is the case. Whilst it seems as if there are a number of obstacles that their CC are trying to tackle, I sincerely hope that this particular one does not fall down the priority list.

Also just to make it clear this scheme is a first for Oxford. In the past they have simply helped to select candidates to proceed onto the TRTO, yet not all the training was conducted under the Oxford brand, unlike now. Perhaps that is why you are paying such a inflated price - for the brand? :yuk:

[sidtheesexist]

It's probably been suggested before, but can we not take the time to lobby BALPA via strongly worded emails etc - if a significant number of the membership bother to do so then MAYBE, just MAYBE we might see a proportionate response to this obvious THREAT to ALL our Ts and Cs.....

Also though, you chaps/chappesses signing up for these exploitative deals must take SOME (at least) responsibility for the continuing erosion of OUR Ts and Cs.....Please don't suggest otherwise.....:ugh:

I realise there are plenty of BALPA haters out there - this request is not for you and I havn't posted to provoke a whole load of anti-BALPA rhetoric....

[Dan 98]

It is just astonishing some of the stuff on here, someone mentioned watchdog a few pages back, maybe someone should feed all this back to the media so that passenegers know whats going on. I am a redundant FO from low/co fortunate enough to be back doing what i did before flying to pay the bills, but no one wants an FO with 1500hrs on a 737/3. Whether I'll ever get airborne again i am not sure as going abroad is not an option for me.

A mate of mine at Easy who went through the CTC scheme 3 years ago when it was a better deal said to me a few weeks ago that cadets are now being sent to Lyon to work, they aren't even given accomodation whilst there, so you have groups of 3 sharing one hotel room, beggers belief doesn't it one on earlies, one on lates,one on days off etc... not exactly condusive to restful sleep and being alert at work..:ugh: But as long as Easyjet are happy as they save a few ££££'s.
God help this industry it is truly :mad:!!

[wobblyprop]

rumour has it, BALPA meeting being held at the Flying Tavern, Charlwood Road, Gatwick on Jan 4th 3 till 6.30 to talk to potential cadets...

[TheBeak]

Potential Oxford Easy cadets or potential CTC Easy cadets? It can't be both as they have completely different deals.

[Oxjob]

We need to petition BALPA and make the general public aware of what is going on. In the USA they are at least starting to talk about stamping out pay to fly and the hiring of inexperienced cadets over FOs with plenty of experience.

I was made redundant in the Summer with a great deal of time on both 'Le Bouse' and turbine, I haven't had a sniff at a job since. I'm seriously starting to worry that the industry will result in the right hand seat being available to cadets with enough cash to fund their 'hobby' for 6-12 months before the next lot of fresh faced, dough eyed kids come in and take it from them. Then what? We'll see people paying for another 500-1000 hours on type, then paying for a command upgrade!

We need to follow the American's lead on this. The public have been made aware of what is going on with pay to fly at places like the Gulfstream Academy for Gulfstream Airlines etc. Now the FAA are changing things. Luckily my wife is a yank and as soon as the economic tide starts to change I will be hauling myself out of this car crash that is the UK airline industry and I'll head to the USA to be paid 60% of what I used to be on over here.

Thank God I have other sources of income, otherwise who knows where I'd be right now.

[Doug the Head]

There's an interesting link to an article on Bloomberg in this (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/400400-fatal-flying-airlines-no-accident.html) tread about Gulfstream Airlines (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aaNPBjZ2kB54&pos=10) which has some eerie similarities to what has also been going on in aviation on this side of the Big Pond; heavily indebted pilots through pay-for-flying schemes living on minimum wage, thus allowing more managerial leverage to pushing the commercial envelop, pilots sleeping in cars/crash pads displaced from families through long commutes and the redefining of limits to targets.

The only thing of which we've been spared in Europe so far (thank God!) are fatal accidents, although a certain Irish airline certainly had it's share of 'interesting experiences.'

Is there a pattern here? Is this the future of aviation, or are we different from Americans, where EU companies are continually able to squeeze more and more out of their employees whilst maintaining the same (or perhaps even better?) level of safety? :confused:

It would be interesting to see what kind of opinion (if they even have one!) European regulators have about these pay-for-flying schemes, the interweaving (although through different commercial entities) of training with commercial flying, and it's potential impact on safety... :suspect:

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

Easy have got complacent and with the deal they are offering it's only a matter of time before there is an incident or accident. What they are hoping is to get high quality cadets like the ones that CTC used to pump out when there was a decent deal on the table. What they are likely to get are the worst of what is out there; like what they got from their association with ATP. Ryanair are offering a less terrible deal right now so they will have first choice on those with the money and easy will be left with what remains. My Travel got themselves into a similar situation with Sigma, pay to fly pilots a few years ago and it ended in tears. By offering a truly awful deal, they managed to recruit a truly awful pilot who managed to cause serious damage to one of their aircraft. Easy have no chance of keeping standards up if they follow this path.

I think any change/stop to these schemes is likely to come from aircraft insurers or regulation from the CAA. The public could not give a toss. Most of them think that the "co-pilot" is not able to take control of the aircraft anyway and as long as there is a "qualified pilot" to do all of the flying then everything is okay.

[Mister Geezer]

rumour has it, BALPA meeting being held at the Flying Tavern, Charlwood Road, Gatwick on Jan 4th 3 till 6.30 to talk to potential cadets...

Excellent news if that is the case, but how many are going to turn up? If finances are so tight for these folks, then showing an interest in BALPA and paying subs will be well down their list of priorities.

[justanotherflyer]

Quoting one gem from Mr Langley's letter:

you have reason for confidence that you will be used

Such refreshing honesty!

[FRying]

Don't fear to protect your T&Cs. This pilot job is very demanding. Eventhough it is despised by several poorly grown directors who only think in terms of figures crunched from an excel spreadsheet. BIG DEAL ! But then they have no idea what they're talking about. I used to be a director myself. That really is no big challenge. I have met with many dumb directors who were there just because they had the right networks. Being a director takes absolutely nothing more than flying an airplane, and very certainly much less. Believe me ! I've seen directors making so much more money than you all for so much less skills.

While some directors (who make outrageous amounts of money for doing nothing outstanding) dream to have you on **** money, you must not feel your job takes less competence than theirs. Everybody here must fight for conditions even if it means crossing a bit of money out of the "take home" in the short run.

Do you people realise what portion of the cost structure our incomes represent, hence a portion of our incomes ? Having pilots 10%, 20% or even 50% paid less would only yield marginally cheaper tickets. This LCC policy has gone too far and it makes no sense anymore.

Not to mention the bleeding of pilots workforce once business kicks back in. What do they think ? Do they believe pilots will forget about the way they've been treated in harsh times ? Pilots will be leaving for greener pastures on the first opportunity, even if they're bonded for many of them. Pilots have always wanted to make more money and always will. Easyjet will then have to produce so much efforts to catch up on the draining workforce this will erase several times the laughable costs cuts made before. Many airlines will thank EZ for taking care of their new pilots during the economic crisis. Now that's a strategy : having a grab on competitors' pilots, cheap to train and expensive for the competitor to replace.

Anyway, fear nothing. Aim at the longer run. Have no hang-ups. Take no bargains for your job is very special. So are your skills. Bind management to have those cadets hired on a fair deal. A finance graduate will make good money and surely would never sign up for such crap contracts.

Be proud !

[TheBeak]

So where are the likes of Norman SF and other Easy captains? The shock at the beginning has worn off and you're now in acceptance? Or has apathy set in? Don't let these pointless, by very definition worthless and utterly otiose dullards fly on behalf of your company and worm their way in - the industry doesn't want them, hence the reason their parents need to pay for them to 'have a go'.

Happy new year to one and all.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

TheBeak - NSF is right here. I can assure you that no one is more bothered than I am about what has happened with the Oxford and CTC deals. Behind the scenes, BALPA are on the case - but they are fighting a war on about 6 fronts. They have my unequivocal support over this issue and I will gladly do my bit to fight against this outrageous situation. This is truly the nadir of easyJet behaviour toward their employees and clearly an overt attack on all our futures. I am totally and utterly opposed to what is happening and will do my bit when the time comes - and come it will. How the people who thought these schemes up sleep in their beds at night I do not know. I confess to feeling utterly embarrassed at what is happening here and will take part in any opposition our representatives consider necessary to stop it. My own view is that this must be opposed if we are to remain credible. Regardless of your position on unions and BALPA, this situation surely must ring alarm bells in every single professional pilot. The depths to wish our company is falling simply beggars belief, but that is nonetheless where we are.

My one hope is that our dire Flt Ops Director goes with our CEO - he is a man without a conscience and his continued presence within the organisation has become a source of great discontent to many. I do not expect him to be here next Christmas - nonetheless I fear he may leave with his pockets stuffed with our money and a pile of high value share options. Not bad for one of the key architects of the great fuel hedging catastrophe - who says incompetence does not pay?

[RAFAT]

Norman - isn't your FOD the one that joined from Flybe?

[Cancel2LateLunches]

To the those of you who have accepted this contract, reconsider!
I'm an FO of 3 years with Easyjet I'm on the command waiting list and as far as the company are concerned I'm just a cost they would love to get rid of and replace with cheap cadets on 'training' contracts. I have nothing against any of the people who have accepted these contracts and understand that you are in a very difficult positon. My reason for posting is to try and make it clear that these contracts will in no way improve your current situations, 2011 will come round and you will for the most part be left by the roadside to make way for the next bunch of cadets.
It pains me to say this but I would tell Oxford, CTC and Easyjet where to go and head off to Ryanair as I'm fairly sure the Brookfield contracts on offer are, I'm sad to say, far better than are own.

[AppleMacster]

RAFAT, I think NSF is talking about the genius who came from Transavia,where he was known as "Laughing Knife".

Applemacster

[TheBeak]

Two points:

1. Ryanairs deal is in a different league (a far better one) and thus will achieve a different league of person. And I hate Ryanair and their scheme.

2. CTC graduates and these Oxford tools that are about to embark on this scam shouldn't be bunched together or spoken to in the same way. They have completely different offers, are in completely different circumstances - one has no choice in this situation and the other is a parasitic, mummy and daddies boy or girl that still hasn't discovered the ability to wipe their own ar5e. As a result, they are getting 5hit on everyone else.

I thought Easyjet said they would never do a scheme like this again after what happened with ATP? That must have been just another myth. Will it be a case of:

'Fool me once, shame on you; Fool me twice, shame on me.'

And:

'The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.' - Albert Einstein.

And:

'Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum.' - 'to err is human, but to persist is diabolical'

You see, history is littered with these phrases for a reason.


Training captains, ultimately do what's best for you. But if you have any spare leverage or capacity please stop this Oxford scheme from happening, it's a step too far.

[gyni]

Beak, I agree with many of your opinions on this site. eJ management have played a very clever game on many levels in the last year. Divide and conquer is the name of their game and with the current threat of reducing Training Captain numbers/remuneration, I fear that the majority of Training Captains will not wish to rock the boat regarding this dreadful scheme. (NSF being an exception) So what can be done by my colleagues and I? I don't have the answer I'm afraid. BALPA showing some leadership would be a great start though, in my opinion.

[hollingworthp]

Beak - I think this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKgPY1adc0A)is more appropriate and somewhat apocryphal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKgPY1adc0A

[FRying]

I just can't wait to see the end of the crisis coming. EJ management are making people so disgusted they're digging their own grave to competitors' future satisfaction.

[Propellerhead]

An in-house type rating doesn't cost more than about 12k, so why aren't ezy doing that? Their trainers can't be working particularly hard right now as they haven't recruited anyone for a while. If the training is conducted by ezy then they don't pay VAT or the profits of the training organisation, plus they must get sim time at a reduced rate (I presum ezy don't have their own sims)? Where on earth does 34k come from? can anyone realistically break down and justify this amount of money?

[kriskross]

12k cost, 22k profit.

[TheBeak]

Good answer KrisKross.

[Vrille]

65% profit margin, that's good business! the beancounters at Oxford and Easy must be rubbing their sorry hands......... :E

[RAFAT]

Thanks AppleMacster. :ok:

[u0062]

The start to a new year needs some positive news. I would like to say a massive thankyou to all the cabin crew and pilots at easyjet.

Your professional, dedicate commitment to exellence has produced a staggering result for the year 08/09.

This has probably been the worst recession since the depression of 1930
yet dispite several airlines going to the wall. easyjet have managed to increase turnover,passenger numbers, and profit per seat.

Due to your superb performance you have produced a profit in excess of £390 million. This would be considered a great performance in the best economic enviroment, but to produce this world class result in the current climate is quite remarkable.

As you are aware the company posted a profit of 54.7 million(source LSE)
This is due to another remarkable achievement , this time by management.
The management lost 330 million by hedging fuel at the wrong price.(source FT) therefor reducing our profit.

To all you hard working men and woman at the front line well done!

[WidebodyWillie]

I wonder if that will make the cadets who are being laid off this winter feel any better..:rolleyes:

[Bruce Wayne]

or the guys given the option stumping up for an over priced type rating for part time work on poor pay ?

[paddingtonbear319]

No one forced them, they knew what the t & C's were...

[TheBeak]

Thanks for that, my blood is boiling. It is the worst of the worst companies and not because of the crews.

[al446]

No one forced them, they knew what the t & C's were...

As did Bruce when he joined RYR on BRK contract but he still bitched like hell when it looked like he was going to be left out of ballot for BALPA recognition (he didn't want it)

[Arkwright]

And we can all see how Easy can rack up such massive profits..... at the expense of the: hard working men and woman at the front line

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/399371-more-easyjet-pilot-slavery-deals-oxford-aviation-academy.html

[Bruce Wayne]

No one forced them, they knew what the t & C's were...


paddingtonbear.

I said the ones given the option of, not the ones who took it.

vast difference.

[10002level]

Propellerhead,

The trainers at easy are working very hard due to the lack of crews in the company. The trainers do fly the aircraft as well as training! That aside, I too have difficulty in arriving at £34k, though the VAT would have to be paid for by the end user, ie the pilot.

P.S. I'm not defending the scheme - it stinks.

[wanabe2010]

Where on earth does 34k come from?

from dad & mom ! :ugh:

[peter.124]

Is it true that OAA and CTC have changed the end of course training report for their graduates from one which was based on their flying ability, ground school results etc etc to one based on their credit rating.
e.g.
1= those with an excellent credit rating irrespective of their flying ability

2= good credit rating/reasonable flying skills

3= reasonable credit rating/good flying skills

4= little credit/excellent flying skills

5= no credit... must try harder irrespective of flying skills

This now seems to be the way forward!

[clanger32]

I know the last post was in jest (well, at least partly) but I do wish people would stop associating having financial ability with lack of flying ability. The two are NOT linked. There's as much truth in that as saying that anyone who Doesn't have cash is a brilliant pilot, or that people only go modular because they can't afford Oxford. All total cobblers. Anyone with even half a brain will understand that the either route, minted or skint will produce both great pilots and rubbish in equal numbers.

These assertions only cloud the issue and I can only assume they're some vain attempt to cover up for individuals inadequacies.

[bylgw]

YouTube - easyJet, CTC, Oxford PILOT ABUSE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RmaaPMDAYo)

[FRying]

You all at Easy AND Ryanair : never forget what is happening at the moment at those airlines. Never forget the way they're messing with you eventhough they're making huge profits. NEVER ! And behave with them accordingly when the sun shines again.

Leave as soon as you can and leave them with their own staffing problems whenever you can. Future is not there. Careers are not there.

[VdV]

Its times like this that you wish we had a real union with strength and not the "lets keep the management happy and not cause a fuss" BALPA. If only people would get together and say enough is enough, its strike time. We have all the power in this industry but everyone is far too scared to use it. I often wonder if BALPA is headed by the airlines management, they pretend to be on our side but in reality they only serve to keep us down. If anything BALPA has helped the management destroy T's&C's.

One day everyone will be crying about how they are all on awfull contracts and no union can legally represent them. Then you'll wish youd taken some ****ing action instead of burying your head in the sand.

[Doug the Head]

FRying, the problem is that during the good years nobody has the backbone to fight for something. Everybody is fat dumb and happy, thinking about how 'fortunate' they are with a short time to command without a seniority list and their next flat screen TV. I've been hammering on this issue (lack of backbone and foresight) for years only to be laughed at and be told to 'just leave if you're not happy.'

During those proverbial good years the ones with enough foresight will have figured it out and will have left, leaving only fresh new meat/cadets, naive positive thinkers/dreamers (like NSF, sorry Norman) who think a CEO is their biggest friend and BALPA which is way behind the power curve. And then the whole cycle starts again, with everyone (except management of course!) getting an even smaller piece of the pie during the next downturn... :ugh:

With so much sh!t happening in 'unionized' airlines (see also Thomas Cook!) BALPA is slowly proving union basher like Real Slim Shady, Leo Hairy Camel and others right. BALPA have been hugely outmaneuvered, wasting precious resources and credibility ('keeping the powder dry') by focusing on stupid little battles but loosing the big picture and the war.

Maybe it really is a Britsh Airways Line Pilot Association after all? :suspect:

[Bruce Wayne]

A full page advertisement in BLAPA's Oct/Nov 2009 rag (Page 4 - inside front cover is BALPA financial solutions).

for OAA....



APPFirstOfficer

birds of a feather flock together...

We are a global leader in professional pilot training and we want to support our airline industry colleagues to make a career change and become an Airline Pilot.

Secure a place on our full time integrated APP First Officer programme in 2009 and you will receive a 3,000 Industry Discount from your course price when presenting your current Airline ID.*

Contact us on +44 (0) xxxxxxxxxxx or visit us online to find out more.


* terms and conditions apply


The very issue where the cover feature with "A Change for the Worse - We reveal how cadet recruitment could change the face of aviation"

Lead line... Worrying trends in training and working conditions mean that what was once a great job for life is in real danger of becoming a seasonal job for students.

and a very quote from that cover feature..


"The problems started when CTC became a supplier offering cheap labour. Airlines are now of the opinion 'why pay when we can get cheap cadets?.'
Monarch Captain


and..

this is the beauty..


"Businesses today have lost any sense of morality, it's all about returns - you're not even a staff number, your a cost number.. it's just pure bean counting."
Lynne Clark, BLAPA Vice Chair



Lot of morality there on who you take the advertising dime from, while decrying their competitors for the same actions as your full page advert client.

[al446]

That was an interesting post, it would have been even more interesting if it was the first time I had read it but you put on the EZY/CTC thread also. Why not post it in a few threads on Jetblast as well?

I know you have a huge downer on BALPA but this is becoming obsessive. Given that you are not a member, at least you said you were not when the BALPA recognition thread was running, why are you commenting. Also, given that you are on BRK contract, unless your posts have led to the 30 pieces of silver being offered by FR, you are part of the problem ie the mallaisse affect your pilot community.

In previous posts you have demonstrated your ignorance of the amount of influence that any body such as BALPA, IATA etc have in doing anything about this whole situation.

You were actively against the ballot for BALPA recognition in RYR so diminishing their voice. Make bed, lie on it.

[Bruce Wayne]

The Lemon Face speaks.

You are not a commercial pilot, never have been, never will be. You are irrelevant in a discussion that relates to the terms and conditions within a cockpit environment.

Now tootle off back to MS flight sim. :ok:

[al446]

The Lemon Face speaks.

have never published pictures either on PPrune or on the net, so where you get this description from I am at a loss to explain. Perhaps you would do so, a satisfactory explanation would prevent me viewing you as a spoiled child in shorts unable to come up with a proper retort. Commonly known as "spitting the dummy"

You are not a commercial pilot, never have been, never will be.

I have never claimed to be, a trawl of my previous posts will prove that.

You are irrelevant in a discussion that relates to the terms and conditions within a cockpit environment.

I am however a trade unionist who recognises that when a body of well paid employees sees their terms and conditions going down the pan faster than a turd in an a/c toilet it is time that we all took notice. The discusion I have read has nothing to with that environment or CRM or anything other than the degradation of T&Cs within the aviation business. You did not need to be down a pit to support the miners in 1984 (I await your flame). You are very good at trying to misdirect the discussion but my comments stand. If you wish to make criticism about a representative could you please make it constructive.

You make a cheap shot at sims yet you do not disclose your pastimes, or are you totally grey other than wanting money? I give you further targets of woodwork, cooking and gardening in addition to reading a wide range of subjects. Very little time left for simming.

You very adroitly duck my original post and do what most under siege do, attack. But here is nothing to attack, only your reflection.

I reiterate, you are part of this problem, not the cure - I have yet to see you post anything stating how you as a pilot are going to contribute to assisting your "profession" dig itself out of this cr@p.

[go around flaps15]

This thread is about Easyjets/ctc deal. Not Bruce Wayne or FR. As for trade unions. Ashtray and motorbike springs to mind. You are busy busy bee wth a lot of time to worry about Bruce and his terms and how he is "part of a problem". Reality is Bruce does not have a problem. He flys a jet, gets payed, and then goes home.
I bet he really is losing sleep with such a problem. The lemon face comment might be something to do with bitterness.

[Bruce Wayne]

Lemon face :

A term used to describe a person that is unaware of their ignorance on a certain topic despite insistence that they know what they are doing.

The term came from a Cornell University paper called "Unskilled and Unaware of It" by Justin Kruger and David Dunning. The paper describes that generally the more intelligent tend to underestimate their abilities because they know what they don't know. On the opposite side those the are ignorant tend to not know what they are talking about yet feel that they do.

In the paper an example is given of a man who smears lemon juice on his face because he thinks that it will keep cameras from seeing his face. After he robs a bank he is captured thanks to the bank camera footage. Even when shown the footage he could not comprehend how it didn't work. Hence the term lemon face.


I have never claimed to be,

Never did say you had claimed to a pilot. Though, you wouldn't get the point if it were drummed into you with a 4x2. You STILL don't.

I am however a trade unionist

Indeed you are trade unionist. To every degree. Your position is to rabble rouse against anyone who may disagree with the directions or actions of a union, no matter how poor that direction or action. That, my dear chap is bigotry.


who recognises that when a body of well paid employees sees their terms and conditions going down the pan faster than a turd in an a/c toilet it is time that we all took notice.


Do you work for BALPA ?


The discussion I have read has nothing to with that environment or CRM or anything other than the degradation of T&Cs within the aviation business.


It has everything to do with the cockpit environment. If you had done yourself the courtesy to read the posts by many other pilots on here you would understand haw it is all interconnected. See above definition of 'Lemon Face'

You are very good at trying to misdirect the discussion but my comments stand. If you wish to make criticism about a representative could you please make it constructive.

Negative. Not misdirecting at all, in fact quite the opposite. Myself and others have attempted to address some of the areas in which this industry needs significant attention for it to remain a profitable industry.

*YOU* have subverted that by driving every attempt at defining where and what needs to be addressed into a carnival wet sponge attack on anything you deem as anti union.

By default, you are contributing to the problem in diverting discussion away from what needs to be done in this industry into your own personal anti-union jack off material.

If you really gave a toss, you would shut up and listen and by now would have an understanding of the problems and not come up with cr@p like :

has nothing to with that environment or CRM or anything other than the degradation of T&Cs within the aviation business.


rather than beat on about anyone that isn't waving the BALPA flag as the second coming of Christ as being anti unionist.

And as for BALPA being the second coming and the answer to all our T&C wet dreams and you as trade unionist with a hard on for them, you neatly diverted any discussion away from why a pilot union that runs a feature article on how cadet programs are damaging the pilot profession and that an advertising account of theirs, OAA, is offering the very cadet program that has the industry as whole spitting blood and is asking what BALPA is going to do about it.

BALPA are advertising them and their APP program in their bloody magazine. - oh with a 3,000 discount with your airline id (subject to terms and conditions) just to really rub salt into the very open and festering wound.

see above my reference to 'Lemon Face'

You make a cheap shot at sims yet you do not disclose your pastimes, or are you totally grey other than wanting money? I give you further targets of woodwork, cooking and gardening in addition to reading a wide range of subjects. Very little time left for simming.

So you are a MS flight simmer !

The only sims I used are ones approved by the authority. My past times are not your concern, nor anyone else's.


You very adroitly duck my original post and do what most under siege do, attack. But here is nothing to attack, only your reflection.



Under siege ? Don't make me laugh.

Do you flatter yourself that much that you think I really give a toss what you say? I extended to you the potential of having open dialogue and to explore areas which need to be addressed nd apologised to you for a degree of harshness on my part. You accepted that and apologised to me for likewise, then, when bolstered by your buddy, you delved into personal attacks, which you continue to do.

Quite frankly, my cats vomit is more interesting that anything you have to say.


I reiterate, you are part of this problem, not the cure - I have yet to see you post anything stating how you as a pilot are going to contribute to assisting your "profession" dig itself out of this cr@p.

Interesting that you assert that someone who has been in this industry for quite a while and wishes to address the problems we face in this industry and the actions we need to consider in view of them is part of the problem.

Oh, but then I am not a flag waving trade unionist am I and that BALPA is the great rapture!.. In your world that makes me the management stooge and the problem.

see above definition of "Lemon Face'

[High-higher]

Let's all become train drivers.

YOU get paid 20k for 1 year of line training, by your chosen company.
Guaranteed job upon completion of training, with that company.
35-40k a year thereafter. Jost move the train from A-B and work some unsocial hours.
:sad:

[Zippy Monster]

And there's about as many train drivers' jobs going out for experienced F/Os as there are F/O jobs...

[Adios]

I don't know of many magazines where editors censor adverts because they go against an editorial position and I doubt that BALPA's editors even knew what ads would run in the issue in question. One could argue that perhaps in the case of an advocacy group's publication, such censorship should occur and certain ads should be rejected. If BALPA have such a policy, I'm not sure how their editors would have known that a few months later, this advertiser was going to announce such a scheme though. For all we know, they may be angry about it too and could have further editorial denigrating PTF in the works.

Frankly, editorial would be a pretty impotent response compared to growing a set of gonads and initiating some industrial action, conducting a PR campaign and lobbying the regulators. I'd like to know which the flying public value more, their fair trade credentials or their cheap tickets? I doubt that more than the 1-2 percent of the public beyond those connected to the industry even know there are FOs up front paying to fly or under line training. The problem with an an effective PR campaign is that it could create more concerns about the low amount of training the FO has had than it would about who is paying for it. Perhaps the subsequent erosion of passenger confidence would give impetus for the airline taking responsibility for training costs again.

There are probably a great number of things BALPA could and should be doing to fight PTF, but preaching to their own choir through LOG is least among them and they wouldn't have known what was coming anyway.

[kriskross]

i understand from yesterday's Mail (not a great source!!) that Birmingham Council dustcart drivers are paid £56000!!!

[tintinminos]

Did anyone else spot the Eastjet job advert in this week's Flight International for Pilot Training Managers, part of the role being to (quote) research/develop innovative "loss cost" training solutions? Whatever next....

[Quality Time]

AL446

I know you have a huge downer on BALPA but this is becoming obsessive.

Richer than The Sultan of Brunei coming from one of the most venomous anti FR voices on Pprune!

[Doug the Head]

It's a bit sad to see everyone talking in circles without actually attacking the root cause of the deterioration of T&C's in the low-cost part of aviation... :hmm:

[TheBeak]

Yeah back on to topic, the 20 Oxford people joining Easyjet on this scheme are the biggest :mad:s in aviation.

[411A]

Yeah back on to topic, the 20 Oxford people joining Easyjet on this scheme are the biggest s in aviation.
On the other hand, I would ask, does it really make a difference?
Those that 'pay' for a position with a certain airline (no names, generally speaking), deserve exactly what they receive...and from some of the comments here, it ain't much.
The airline flying profession is what it is, no more, no less.
No 'experience'?
Up sh!te creek without a paddle.
Pay up...or do without.
EOM.
Those with extensive Command experience (especially on certain types) demand (and get) what they want.
TRE/IRE's included.
I'm one of the few remaining on the L1011, so...I name my price...and I get it.
No questions asked, nor expected.
As it should be, in my considered opinion.

IF...you are on the bottom of the airline ladder...prepare to pay through the nose...or, go elsewhere.
Airlines don't care.
I don't care, either.

Hard facts?
Yup, in spades.

So many young'uns in line for the RHS, I'm surprised some airlines don't charge MORE.:}

[TheBeak]

Or no one pay for it and no one will have to. But there will always be 20 impatient, snot nosed, useless narcissits willing to sh1t on everyone else. So to that end 411A you are probably right - take it or leave it. I'll pass on paying for a TR thanks.

[al446]

I am opposed to RYR for a couple of reasons, one from the POV of pax and the other for the erosion in T&Cs I now read about within your industry both of which I will explain. Let the BALPA detractors do likewise because I think that is the only body available to you guys to dig you all out of the hole you seem to be heading down. That is what this thread is about isn't it?

As pax I have seen their charges ramp up on things that cost them no more now than previously such as Electron cards, they have been more than zealous on baggage weight when we have flown and flying with them has been a joyless experience. J2 is Emirates in comparison. Add to that their customer service and you have a dismal airline. It may be cheap(ish) but I don't need to wear the hair shirt too.

Re T&Cs, they kicked things off in UK with BRK contracts thereby creating a two tier workforce, those on BRK essentially had no recourse to BALPA as their contract was not with RYR and when the BALPA guys tarted down the road to recognition RYR, via their stooges and misinformation, managed to throw a spanner in the wheel so entrenching what I see as Wal-Mart practices in the industry.

As I have posted previously on another thread, I do not see BALPA as wonderful, I think it should be a section within Unite, but they seem to me to be the only show in town that can utioise its PR machine in getting the press behind the true story of huge debt being accumulated by wannabes, already profitable airlines skinning them and the possible end result being decreased safety as those in the LHS must have confidence in their FO.

Now let the BALPA detractors state their case.

[Haran_Banjo]

I'm one of the few remaining on the L1011, so...I name my price...and I get it.
No questions asked, nor expected.
As it should be, in my considered opinion.

IF...you are on the bottom of the airline ladder...prepare to pay through the nose...or, go elsewhere.
Airlines don't care.
I don't care, either.


Yes, indeed this is the reality. Market is the master. 20 years ago anybody with a C.P.L. was able to name his price, today is not so anymore. Those who paid and now cry because mum airline doesn't want them anymore are pretty funny :ouch: !!!

[Evil Kaneeval]

Yeah back on to topic, the 20 Oxford people joining Easyjet on this scheme are the biggest :mad:s in aviation.

No doubt by now a fair few people have noticed the almost continuous tirade of misinformed and foul-mouthed posts coming from "TheBeak".

If you do a bit of background research you'll discover this person is not a professional pilot, and in fact failed the Oxford assessment a few years ago. Not surprisingly, he has an axe to grind and has invited a few of his teenage friends along to help.

I don't suggest blocking his posts, but this otherwise interesting thread is being drowned in his written diarrhoea.

[TheBeak]

I absolutely did not fail the assessment. Can you even? That's about as much as I'll rise to you evil. Given you have just signed up I take it you are one of the 20 then you :mad:. Know how much contempt I have for you.

Also given you have just signed up I think it's unlikely people will heed your advice. They can do what they like to be quite honest. Now let's not divert the attention away from this dreadful scheme and it's dreadful partakers anymore.

[go around flaps15]

65 million passengers have voted with their feet. So that would indicate that you are in a minority. Another minority that you are in, is that you are not a pilot posting an awful lot on FR pilots terms and conditions. Do you really know what working for FR is like. No. Do you know what FR contract pilots take home each year? No.
What do you appear to know about? BALPA. As I said before. Ashtrays and motorbikes.

[al446]

I'll leave aside that the 65m figure is individual journeys not pax.

I do not post "an awful lot on FR pilots terms and conditions", I never have done, I have posted on degradation of T&Cs in the industry which is somewhat related to this thread, others have posted on RYR T&Cs. I would not think about commenting on them other than to make the observations I have. I also have no idea (or interest) of what a BRK pilot takes home, I am only informed by the thread running some time ago re the BALPA ballot at RYR. Read it.

"BALPA. As I said before. Ashtrays and motorbikes." I'll leave aside that you did not say it before but what I wrote was "Now let the BALPA detractors state their case" You haven't. At least not coherently.