Nimrod to go by March

[ORAC]

The Times: RAF's Nimrod plane fleet withdrawn in defence cuts (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6957920.ece)

The RAF’s fleet of 11 Nimrod surveillance aircraft, one of which catastrophically burst into flames, killing 14 servicemen in Afghanistan in 2006, is to be withdrawn from service by March as part of a range of defence cuts announced yesterday. Bob Ainsworth, the Defence Secretary, denied that the decision to axe the Nimrod Mark 2s a year earlier than planned had anything to do with the crash of Nimrod XV230, which was caused by leaking fuel, and he insisted that it was still safe to fly. He told the Commons that the decision was purely for financial reasons.........

Mr Ainsworth also announced that the programme to introduce a replacement, the Nimrod MRA4, was going to be delayed. With the Mark 2s scrapped by the end of March, this will leave a capability gap, defence sources confirmed.

The first MRA4, one of nine ordered, will be delivered to RAF Kinloss in Morayshire, home of the Nimrods, in February but it will not be operational for a long time because the crews will have to carry out lengthy flight training. “It is a brand new aircraft, so it will take time,” a defence official said.

One of the principal roles of the Nimrod is to protect Britain’s nuclear submarine deterrent as it leaves Faslane on the Clyde for patrols in the North Atlantic and Antarctic. The defence sources said that the protection of the deterrent would have to be left in the hands of the Royal Navy, using hunter-killer, nuclear-powered submarines.

The decision on the Nimrod Mark 2s and their replacements will have a considerable impact on the personnel at RAF Kinloss. There are currently 1,600 RAF staff based there, and a proportion of them — especially the engineers — will be displaced to other bases to work on different aircraft. RAF sources said that there were no plans to make any Kinloss staff redundant..............

[Tiger_mate]

He also said in the Commons that the maritime patrol commitment would be catered for by RN Merlin, (To a degree but not over a similar search area or range surely) and C130 Hercules. Do we have a herc with a Mad boom? or is 'Snoopy' being reintroduced with a new boom sticking out the front?? Do hercs even have a 'lookout window': I hasten to add the stutter and tone of his voice gave the body language akin to being caught in public with his trousers around his ankles.

[TheInquisitor]

No, but they have 2 sizeable para doors at the rear in which observer seats can be fixed. Whilst not trying to compare capabilities here, Albert has been doing MRR down in MPA for years.

[f4aviation]

Good job we've lots sitting around doing nothing then...:ugh:

[green granite]

So no SAR cover for long range Sea King rescue flights then.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

As I recall it, the MPA Herc patrols were fairly “random” and surface recce only. That was/is good enough for that Theatre but it would be unfortunate if certain grown-ups and parliamentary lobby fodder got the impression that it was adequate for Home waters and EASTLANT; even if machines were available. I expect a Merlin or Seaking trying to forlornly plug the ASW gap wouldn’t be at all conspicuous.

[ab33t]

Not just sad to see them go but surely the withdrawl could have been delayed until the new ac were ops ready

[Talk Reaction]

When will that be exactly???

This is only the start and those who want to lament the rapid loss of, shall we say, 'less now focused capabilities', will be very busy posting early next year!!

[Metman]

The way the Nimrod has been demonised in the press, I'd guess everyone will be cheering its demise, and ignoring the capability "holiday" (gaping hole?) that will be left until the MRA4 gets declared operational. It seems as a layperson to be a rather important capability to just get rid of.

How will Long range SAR, transatlantic FJ detachments, on-scene command / control / comms, etc be carried out?

Exactly what is the status of the MRA4 now? It has gone quite quiet on that front on here?

[BEagle]

Not since WW2 will the UK have had such an 'Air gap' on the North Atlantic.

All AAR trails across the pond used to have the security of Nimrod SAR support. When multiple waves were trailed, the Nimrod would launch ahead of the first and land after the last, maximising its on-scene potential, should the worst ever happen. In later years, I understand that the Nimrod was kept at a high readiness state at Kinloss, rather than actually launching.

But now to have not even that luxury seems a totally retrograde step.

Can such an absurd decision be reversed / delayed?

[Arclite01]

For me it's not just SAR, it's anti-submarine, MRR, Fisheries protection, Oil Rig protection, Int gathering, tri-service co-ordination, force projection............

It's the absolute requirement as we are a maritime nation. WW2 showed that air gap in the North Atlantic is tantamount to cutting your own throat........

Amazed it is even being talked about - let alone done !!

Crazy, Crazy, Crazy - but why am I not suprised.

Arc

[SidHolding]

I think I read on BBC that the MRA4 is to be delayed until 2012?

[NST]

Sad to see the MR2 go on two counts. One, I did 7 years at Kinloss on two tours and two, being a Radio Op on the Rigs now means that it is one less asset should we have a drama. I was always proud when I would hear a Nimrod on VHF 16, and it was always reassuring to know that, alongside the RAF, RN and Coastguard Helo's, they were available in the event of a drama. Losing one panel of that umbrella does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling.

[Airbrake]

Delaying the MRA4! It's already 10 years late. Remember when it was Nimrod 2000?

[Green Flash]

Does this include 51 Sqns cabs too? If not, why not move the R1's to ISK and ease the crush at EGXW?

[LowObservable]

Nobody will ever use that kind of designation again....

[Ivan Rogov]

In very broad terms we will lose a major ISTAR asset (search, find, fix and in some cases destroy) its capability can not be replaced by any other current asset. The idea that 10 or more Squadrons of FJ is needed in the current force structure is ridiculous and may cause much more harm to our future relevance.
MPA has always been considered the Cinderella of the RAF and the FJ centric hierarchy have never allowed the MR2 to reach it's potential, left unchecked I'm sure they wouldn't be to bothered about the MRA 4 either.
Bring on the SDR, hopefully homeland defence will be top of the list and the politicians might see what an error they have made! :ugh:

[vecvechookattack]

Does anyone have a good reason why the RAF have done this? Why would the RAF recommend withdrawing the MR2's ? any ideas?

[Ivan Rogov]

No idea except my FJ conspiracy one.
We are losing a very real capability, available right now 365 days a year, not some pointy things which don't do weekends or nights and need to go to Vegas etc, to work up for Ops.

[Finnpog]

The RAF must have been in a pants position.

After all, which essential bit do you give up?
Is chopping the Nimrods better than losing another squadron or two of Tornado's?
The Harrier has been all but put down.
They cannot and, I doubt, would not chop SH or AT.

So - what else is left?
Perhaps a braver choice would have been to keep the myriad capabilities which the Nimrod provides at the expense of...
AD?
CAS?

[Romeo Alfa]

I'm sure the the Gaywacs fleet will volunteer to pick up all the maritime tasking (as long as it's not at the weekend!).

[Fat Chris]

A perfect demonstration of how far up their own backside those at the top of the RAF chain are.

There is no logical answer to the question, "Why?". In an attempt to take a balanced view of things as they stand............

1. Helicopters and AT are a massive priority, as the conflict that we are currently engaged in has little need for a large FJ presence and more for combat support.

2. The MR2 provides much more than one of the most capable ASW platforms in the world and it's capability 'capping' has far greater reach than most appreciate (including those in the Main Building, it would seem). The end result of this gap could be as small (?) as the inability to fix and assist a vessel in distress that is out of range of UK SAR(H), or as large as the compromise of the nation's nuclear deterrent.

3. Whilst the introduction of a new and capable FJ fleet is important to the defence of the UK, it is NOT the priority at this time, nor is it likely to be in the next 2/3 years.

It leaves only one question of events in the MoD........

......has the Christmas party season started already?

[The Gorilla]

My view is it's a cynical ploy to get rid of our ASW all together. If you can have a "holiday" why not save shed loads of money and do away with it all together?

What will happen to all the surplus Air Eng's now then?

TG

[Could be the last?]

So what are 150-200 AEops going to do? I wonder how many of them were/are ALMs in disguise...........? I think the CH47 force are looking for volunteers:ok:

Green Flash,

What crush at 'W'? I was there last week and it's a ghost town!

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Metman.That’s a fair observation. It certainly meets the MoD contribution to;

Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Defence Policy and Business | MOD announces new Air Safety Authority (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/DefencePolicyAndBusiness/ModAnnouncesNewAirSafetyAuthority.htm)


The Military Aviation Authority (MAA) has been created as part of the MOD's full response to the Nimrod Review by Charles Haddon-Cave QC following the deaths of 14 Service personnel onboard Nimrod XV230 on 2 September 2006.



Air Marshal Kevin Leeson, Chief of Materiel (Air), said:
"The Ministry of Defence and the Royal Air Force is committed to learning from this tragic accident. Mr Haddon-Cave confirmed that the Nimrod aircraft remain safe to fly. He commended the findings of the RAF Board of Inquiry and the technical actions we had taken to restore integrity.




Whilst the introduction of a new and capable FJ fleet is important to the defence of the UK, it is NOT the priority at this time, nor is it likely to be in the next 2/3 years.

That may well be true but not much help if you’ve just bought them, at the time they were still available.

[Fat Chris]

Sadly, you're right.

Anyone could be forgiven that a little procurement foresight was needed. Oh, well. When do I collect my ration book and gas mask? That's the next event in the pattern, isn't it? The Battle of Britain mentality leaps forth once more and the non-fighter theatres are dismissed easily. Typical bloody RAF.

[JamesA]

Don't be surprised to see Uncle Lockheed riding to the rescue, i.e. a quick dust-down, a flash over paint job and there is an instant squadron of one careful owner P-3s.
Somebody in the ministry is praised to high heaven, (have another CBE), for saving the day and quietly trousers a bag of gold and all is well.
Long live defence cuts and savings

[Fat Chris]

I'm not sure about a bag of gold in the future, but I'd like to bet that someone's creeping down a corridor with 30 pieces of silver in their pocket today.

[Tonka Toy]

Arc, Fisheries protection - Scottish fisheries agency. Or english fisheries. Oil rigs, Maritime and Coastguard Agency assetts. I refer to various off shore incidents and the Kuznetsov incident of valentines day this year which was ably responded to by an MCA 404 from coventry masquerading as an IAAC CASA for political reasons. Both crew members of which are now working for other 'agencies' having been made redundant.

James - just exactly where were you going to magic up these P3s from?:suspect:

[davejb]

Gentlemen,
this is entirely the wrong attitude to take, don't view the 'gapping' of MR2/4 (or MR2/Nimrod 2028 as it'll eventually be known) in this pessimistic vein - look for the opportunities this affords:

What better time could you find for running vast quantities of cocaine into the country? No MPAs, the RN reduced to a fisheries protcetion vessel, 4 pedaloes and HMS Victory, and the Army are both away in Afghanistan. I'm in for a fiver, how about we all club together for a massive drugs haul during the capability gap? Hmm?

Dave "Carlos" B

[SASless]

The US Navy Boeing P-8 Poseidon is coming along nicely....perhaps that will wind up replacing the Nimrod some day.

First Navy Test Pilot Flies P-8A Poseidon - Southern Maryland News, Charles County, Calvert County and St. Mary's County News (http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index.cfm/fa/viewstory/story_ID/15900)

[Party Animal]

Interesting point, Gorilla makes. If the RN have assured ministers that they can take care of any threat to the integrity of our BM capability using ships, subs and Merlin... and if they guarantee that they will cope adequately with any maritime terrorist threat to the UK or react to drug smugglers at short notice etc, ... and if we have no major life threatening SAR event (Piper Alpha) over the next 2 years that could have been lessened by Nimrod cover - will the Treasury see it as justification to cut MPA altogether? There won't be a capability gap if other assets (on paper) can take on the job and nothing actually happens to put them to the test. I'm sure the Dutch never envisioned losing the P3 force 10 years ago...

[fergineer]

RIP Nimrod......Had fun flying on you and wish all my Kipper Fleet mates all the best in the future....Agree with all thoughts about how you will cover the gap when it goes.......DaveJB dont wind them up too much and watch out for the black Omega's outside!!!!!! Good luck .......Losing your jobs could well be a direct result of the loss of the A/C in Afganistan and the furore that followed that was always on the cards but to come as quick as this and without the MR4 is wrong in my opinion.
Enjoy the rest guys.

[Fat Chris]

SASless - The P8 discussion has had the backside well and truly kicked out of it in the past, and the incumbent USN MPA is not likely to be as capable as the MRA4. If for no other reason than a twin-engined aircraft will offer up some serious low-level performance questions, in the event of single engine failure. A quick search using the facility at the top of the page will allow you to trawl through the arguments for and against.

Party Animal - You can't even hope to compare the UK's maritime commitment to that undertaken by the Dutch. I have no doubt that we will make do during the gapped period, but the capability will be missed. What the fleet really needs is the feedback, from the organisations that would normally have a service provided by the Nimrod MPA, to report what effects and to what extent the lack of support is having.

[fincastle84]

Bob Ainsworth & the one eyed jock maniac should be f***** sideways with an A sized sonobuoy.

Spock

Nimrods '72-'92

[SammySu]

Beagle - it's ok we have some of those nice new 406 beacons too so we can be located in the middle of the atlantic, prior to a Herc throwing a dinghy at us prior to waiting 4 days for a military ship to pick us up as we don't want to get kidnapped by a merchant vessel. We do all have working PELS beacons don't we......?
Absolutely criminal some of the capabilities lost yesterday.

[Plunko1]

What makes me angry is the fact that there is a simple solution to the problem.

Scrap MRA4
Scrap A400M
Scrap Sentry
Close Waddo
Close Kinloss

With Billions saved buy 25 more Hercs.
No need for new SOP's, OCU, OEU etc etc etc because it all already exists!!

Open new Hercules MR Sqn and use the nimrod guys experience to produce a viable Herc MR platform.

Easy really.... Lots of jobs for everyone!

[Joe Black]

Reading through all these threads it appears that most seem to be thinking along the same lines. I must admit I was not surprised about what occurred yesterday and what surprised me was Kinloss staying open, however, the writing does appear to be on the wall good and proper. Only time will tell at just how much the lack of LRMPA will affect the various agencies and it'll probably take something major to kick off/occurr to save the MRA4 from the chop.

Getting our SH fleet 22 new chinooks is fantastic but surely the fact that we won't get the benefit of these until 2013(10 of them) underlines just how short-sighted and ridiculous this decision appears?

Something tells me that something major does loom over the horizon and with our current state I dread that day. History all over again.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

To those asking why the Nimrod's gone, I think you're affording the decision-makers with a little bit too much intelligence if you think there was any reasoning behind its death in terms of capabilities lost.

In fact, I imagine that the MR2 was offered up because it was going to be gone anyway within a few years. They've just grabbed at an OSD and gone "yes, we can move that forward," not thought about it.

[The Old Fat One]

F84 (AKA Spock)

Bob Ainsworth & the one eyed jock maniac should be f***** sideways with an A sized sonobuoy.

Since you took the last MK1 to victory in the AW, would it not be not more appropriate (and more satisfying) to do the insertion with a MK1C Active?

[Fat Chris]

Have you tried Barra?

:E

[Joe Black]

Agree with you on the withdrawl of MR2 5 For 6 Back and it makes some sense, but delaying the operational ISD and indeed the introduction of the MRA4 as a whole highlights that they are very willing to be without MPA. If, after 12 - 24 months nothing major has occurred in homeland waters and therefore there has been no "major" requirement for Nimrod, then it doesn't take a genius to work out what will happen next.

On the positive side, 18 and 27 sqn will have some very highly experienced aircrew to bolster them!

[Party Animal]

Fat Chris - I agree with your earlier post completely but you missed the point regarding my reference to the Dutch. I wasn't trying to compare empires - just using the example of how history may be repeated. From my understand, during the Dutch version of Planning Rounds and the need to make savings, the removal of the P3 MPA capability was offered up as an option, with the full expectation that no Defence Minister would sign up to it. Unfortunately, the option was taken and the capability has been removed, probably for ever. So ask yourself - are you 100% certain, that could never happen to the Kipper Fleet?

If we prove we can 'make do' without the MR2 capability, which may happen because nothing comes up in the next 2 years that could only have been dealt with by a Nimrod - then in the current climate, that makes the aircraft 'desirable' and not 'essential' and therefore places the future at risk. Yes of course, the capability will be missed and I'm sure Nimrod customers will feed that up the chain. But when it gets to the higher level and the RN is faced with the option of supporting the RAF or risking cuts to Astute, what decision do you think they will make?

Then take a guess of how much support, the Nimrod Force gets at the top table of the RAF? On the basis that AFG is the clear priority, CAS, AT, SH and ISR come far higher than ASW, noting that other assets have succesfully taken on the ISR role previously carried out by the MR2. Remember the decision makers will all be FJ men, fully aware of the great job that Harrier/Tornado has done/is doing in the Stan and fully behind a strong AD capability for the UK. Faced with the requirement to make cuts, what options do you think they will propose if backs are against the wall?

Simplistic - maybe, but remember we are in unchartered territory and the country is facing bankruptcy. Our only hope is that our leadership can see beyond the immediate short term and still plan on a balance of capabilities. Sorry to be so pessimistic but in my 26 years of RAF life, this is the first time that my own personal morale meter has started to dip and I'm really starting to wonder how the future is going to look....

[TANTALLON]

"...Bob Ainsworth & the one eyed jock maniac should be f***** sideways with an A sized sonobuoy...."

I have to disagree Spock old mate. A 1c sonobuoy would be much more effective - bigger thicker and with more knobbly bits!!

[Wasser]

"...Bob Ainsworth & the one eyed jock maniac should be f***** sideways with an A sized sonobuoy...."

"I have to disagree Spock old mate. A 1c sonobuoy would be much more effective - bigger thicker and with more knobbly bits!!"

Nah, you want to ask the Insties if they still have the dummy sonobuoy used for launcher checks. When I say "used" I mean it was tried once in the mid-eighties but, because it was so heavy, it made a hole in the pan when it dropped out the launcher.

Thereafter it retired and when not on display on the Nav Inst TM's desk it toured the world as a stowaway hidden in kitbags.

Some said it was radioactive.

[raedwald]

Spock, we should use an active buoy - boil his bath water!

The hierarchy has never been interested in coastal - hence the complete under-investment in the fleet over the years. Margaret Thatcher was the only politician who ever understood what it was about - but that is another story.

The problem is that we have been flying an aircraft with a 'flawed design' maintained by an organisation that has had its attitude to safety condemned. How can anyone argue that the aircraft has suddenly been magically re-designed and everything that has been deferred over the last 30 years suddenly put right? Someone is trying to kid us!

[TheSmiter]

Whoever thought up this idea must be a complete nimrod.:ugh:

For non-kipper mates please see

The Online Slang Dictionary | "N" Words | Page 9 (http://onlineslangdictionary.com/browse/n/page9)

As in:

"Rafair 7654, Boston Centre, say aircraft type"

"Boston, Rafair 7654, Nimrod sir, I spell N-I-M-R-O-D"

"Tee hee tee hee" Sounds of controller rolling on floor laughing.

or

"Norfolk Tower this is Spamjet 56C, what's that thing ahead of us?"

"Spamjet 56C, they call it a NIMRAAAAAD"

"Tee hee heee heee" Sounds of first officer choking on his coffee and doughnut.


Please, please, please Mr Cameron can you save the MRA4 and maybe call it something else like Triton Mk1?

[covec]

Re Part Animal's comments.

Quote. "Remember the decision makers will all be FJ men, fully aware of the great job that Harrier/Tornado has done/is doing in the Stan and fully behind a strong AD capability for the UK. Faced with the requirement to make cuts, what options do you think they will propose if backs are against the wall?" Unquote.

Yeah. And those decision makers have done a great job over the last decade, haven't they.:D

[oxenos]

I seem to recall that after XV230 went down the Nimrods had to continue flying because (it was said) the work they were doing in support of the troops was vital. Has that work suddenly stopped being vital? Strong smell of cow pat.

Oxenos (ex Nimrod, but a very long time ago)

[camelspyyder]

ox
The service now has an alternative which is less expensive and more available. The MR2 was only ever a stopgap in the overland surveillance role once AAR was stopped

CS

[Charlie Luncher]

WTF k.
I thought initially this was a windup, my thoughts go out to the players of ISK. Of all that has been done they treat you like this I am gutted.
For those of you that think you know the solution with hercs etc. you really have no idea at all.:sad:
Guess no need to dust off my Fincastle party strides:ugh:.
Keep safe little fellas
Charlie sends

[Vage Rot]

What I don't understand is from where all the savings will come?

51 Sqn are keeping going so the old Rod will still need to be serviced, the Sim at ISK will need to keep going, NSG - not sure about what depth work is still needed on the R1, RTI work?

Usually there is economy in scale so you would, broadly, need the same support for the R1s as you would for the remaining 7 MR2s. Or have I got it completely wrong?

Also, what about the aircrew? The MRA4 being delayed, how many will hang about doing sh1tty jobs for 2 years waiting? Once all of the experience is gone then the potency of MRA4 will be somewhat dilluted.

The Herc can plug the SAR gap somewhat but what have we got to plug the ASW gap - if the ministers have been conned into thinking that Herc could do that then they are :mad:. The Merlin could do some but not to the extent that Nimrod can - and, of course, wh have hundredes of spare merlins!??:ugh:

I fail to see the potential for big savings here Mr Brown but the biggest thing that has pi55ed me off is through out all the talk of cutbacks and savings, our benevolant country can still afford to dole out an increase in benefits when we have defaltion and, moreover, hand over the exact sum 'saved' by defence cuts in extra foreign aid!

Surely, if everyone who works for a living is expected to take it up the ar5e and suffer cutbacks, then the pikey dole grabbing b4st4rds can do the same? Or have Special brew and fags gone up that much that they need more of my hard earned dosh - You might as well just have it all you sponging useless :mad: Shame my wife is beyond child bearing age or we could set up a pikey sprog production line and live off the state forever.

As you might have guessed, I think it's time for a cull of the herd!
Rant ends
(But it felt good!):D

By the way - Billy Speight - I applaud you Sir!! Those at ISK will know what I mean!:D:D:D

[vecvechookattack]

The Merlin could do some but not to the extent that Nimrod can - and, of course, wh have hundredes of spare merlins!??

On what evidence would you argue that the MR2 is a better ASW platform than the Merlin?

WE don't have hundreds of ASW Merlins spare but we do have about 40 waiting to step in.

[Mad_Mark]

On what evidence would you argue that the MR2 is a better ASW platform than the Merlin?

Operating range from 'mother'. Speed to remote SOA. Endurance on scene. Stores capacity. Size of pattern able to be monitored. Own noise levels.

Oh, and comparing results from exercises and ops :E

And for VR...

By the way - Billy Speight - I applaud you Sir!!He was very well applauded at the time :D


MadMark!!! :mad:

[Dave Angel]

[QUOTE=vecvechookattack;5390338]On what evidence would you argue that the MR2 is a better ASW platform than the Merlin? QUOTE]

Vec,
That line shows you have poor operational knowledge of ASW events over the last couple of years.
Nough said.

Happy Christmas to everyone on here and at ISK

DA

[mra4eng]

Hello all.

Whatever MR2's are serviceable (bearing in mind that, over the last few weeks, there has only been 1 serviceable Nimrod, at any time) will be flown as much as possible until the end of March. Around 200 MR2 workers will be re-deployed shortly after, but those that are already in place to work on the MRA4's will stay.

The MRA4's will keep to their existing delivery schedules - the first one is due to be delivered at the end of February.

BAE will need to restructure (yet again) the support solution (it was heavily restructured only a couple of weeks ago). It was already at bare bones levels though.

They are looking to save around £100 million in the first couple of years.

By the way, the R1's are based in Waddington, not Kinloss.

[Climebear]

MRA4Eng

Welcome to the forum.

You just might wish to reconsider if this is the correct place to publish fleet serviceability data.

[JamesA]

Hi Tonka Toy,
Try Uncle Sam's parking lot at Davis-Monthan.

Hi fincastle,
My choice of instrument would be the rough end of a pineapple.

Happy and healthy Christmas and New year to all.
Stay lucky

[stbd beam]

I think what we need now is for a couple of Akulas to come & rattle the Deterrent good n proper...

U listening Ivan?

[davejb]

Generally speaking, we don't tend to have mutliple platforms doing the same role - try listing aircraft under headings such as 'air defence fighter, long range bomber, long range transport, battlefield support, MPA' etc and you tend to identify one aircraft for a role, whilst accepting that some others can provide a degree of crossover. (C130 playing Puff the Magic Dragon doesn't count, as ours are C130's not AC130's). An island nation deciding to take a capability gap on its only MPA is obviously nothing less than a gamble, one that will pan out 999/1000 times, but which will be seen in retrospect as an act of suicidal folly the other 1/1000.

The ASW pieces interlock - MPA refines the datum well enough to hand over to a helo, then bogs off because it's really good at covering a large area and is much better spending its time finding all the bad guys while someone else kills the latest one to appear - and when your task group is belting along it takes a hell of a lot of helos to cover the area ahead, the MPA/Helo mix is special, and to remove either is to reduce the effectiveness dramatically.

Luckily we no longer have a navy, more accurately we have a splendid navy but they don't have very much to sail round in any more, so I guess that and the fact that our comissars don't expect any conflict to pop up anyway makes it all peachy. Funny thing is, nobody ever expects any of the wars we get involved in.

I'm emigrating to Luxembourg, where I will whip up nationalistic fervour and then invade the UK. I figure I'll pay less tax in retirement if I conquer the place rather than just try to live in it.

I wonder how they'll explain the RN capability gap when they cancel everything? With global warming (subtract cash from forces, hand over to global warming R us movement) I'd have thought we'd need more MPA and ships, not less....
Dave

[wotan]

SAR gap on the atlantic could be covered by the Irish Air Corps with thier 2 CASA CN235 MPA. I believe they often worked in tandem with Nimrods on Top cover operations for long range SAR helis, more often than not the MRCC tasked Nimords first.

[TheSmiter]

From They Work For You - 15Dec09 Future Defence Programme debate

Bob Ainsworth:

On the withdrawal of Nimrod, I do not take these decisions without consulting the Chief of the Air Staff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Staff) and the First Sea Lord (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sea_Lord). Other platforms are capable of providing the maritime patrol responsibilities. They have done so before-they are Merlin and Hercules, and we can meet our obligations with those other platforms.


It is true that these 2 platforms can provide MPA responsibilities to a degree, however, if SoS Def has been led to believe they can replace the full multi role capability of Nimrod, then he's been mis-informed.

Vage rot asks what savings will be made as a result of this decision. My guess? Not a lot compared to the overall package ......... unless it's preparing the ground for binning MRA4 and closing Kinloss completely.

I don't believe CAS and 1SL are anything less than canny and astute politicians who have good brains between them. I think they're playing a high stakes game of poker with the house, car and wife on the table.

I hope you've got good cards Sirs.

PS Fortunately, your opponent is not the sharpest cookie in the box.

[TheSmiter]

Dear Mr Vage Rot

Please accept the Season's Greetings and read your PM's

Love

H Harman (Ms) :suspect:

[davejb]

I don't recall ever finding the Irish Air Corps hanging about the place any time I was out that way. I would be more than amazed if they got involved in plugging an ASW gap for the UK... the battle of the Atlantic in WW2, I would suggest, showed Ireland's opinion of helping the UK out during a life and death struggle, anyone banking on their assistance is barking.

Smiter is pretty well spot on. Herc and Merlin - anytime the cards are well and truly on the table this will be seen to be exactly what it is, 100% Bulls**t, unless the plan is to replace each Nimrod with 3 or 4 Hercs and a couple of dozen Merlin. The point is that to the vast majority of the general public, and not a few servicemen I would say, one aeroplane is pretty much as good as another - just as most people probably see nothing wrong sending something like a Scimitar in place of an MBT, or a frigate in place of a DDG. As long as the general public are so easily fooled why bother doing anything else? I bet we'd be pushed to fight the Belgians right now, if it came down to it...

[ANW]

PA4 has now entered the flight test programme, launching for a four hour flight yesterday (18 Dec). See (http://www.edendale.co.uk/ANW/WFD.801.8.html)

[The Old Fat One]

I bet we'd be pushed to fight the Belgians right now,


Nah, piece of p**s...we'd just hop on the old Eurostar...doh

[Gwladys]

Quote:
On the withdrawal of Nimrod, I do not take these decisions without consulting the Chief of the Air Staff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Staff) and the First Sea Lord (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sea_Lord). Other platforms are capable of providing the maritime patrol responsibilities. They have done so before-they are Merlin and Hercules, and we can meet our obligations with those other platforms.

Am I missing something here?? Can anyone enlighten me as to when the last time a Herc got contact on anything submerged? 'cos nobody is seriously suggesting that the Merlin can cover the sort of area a Nimrod can/did are they........are they?? Merlin and Herc are tremendous assets when tasked correctly - this is hardly playing to their strengths.

Thought that ISK may take a hit at the upcoming SDR, but never saw this coming - typical short-sightedness. Do we learn nothing from history - I fear we will never regain our long-range ASW capability (MRA4 - standby for the SDR....), and though there aren't many 'feathers' in Afghanistan, I reckon any of us could name hotspots where, given time, we may rue this decision. And what's a hotspot not...........

[vecvechookattack]

'cos nobody is seriously suggesting that the Merlin can cover the sort of area a Nimrod can/did are they.

Don't be silly. A Merlin far outstretch s the legs of a Nimrod. In fact right now we have Merlins all over the world, far from land conducting Maritime surveillance and UWW operations.

[SASless]

Where's all these Herky Birds coming from to carry out an added mission set?

As to the Irish plugging any gap with two (2), a pair, couple, of aircraft.....well then I must be underestimating something!

[Hilife]

I don't believe CAS and 1SL are anything less than canny and astute politicians who have good brains between them. I think they're playing a high stakes game of poker with the house, car and wife on the table.

You mean to say that someone out there might just be setting up Davros and Bobby No-Mates to make them look so out of touch and insensitive in the public’s eye, that they’ll be completely humiliated and forced to do a 180 on all these latest proposed changes?

Never. That would be like suggesting to the Minister that £20m could be shaved off the MoD’s annual budget if only he were to announce cut-backs in TA training. ;)

[Lyneham Lad]

sh1t, paddle, creek. Rearrange into a well known phrase or saying. :{

Not the most erudite and meaningful contribution I have made on Pprune but I fear I might blow a blood vessel were I to articulate the depth of feeling regarding this latest betrayal...

[Fat Chris]

Don't be silly. A Merlin far outstretch s the legs of a Nimrod.

vecvechoosiewotsit.................

You really are a troll. There is no way that you can be making statements like you are without either:

1. Trying to wind the good and learn-ed folk of pprune up with your crap

OR

2. Actually believing that some of the claggage that you're writing to be factual.

I think your knowledge of ASW can be written on the back of a postage stamp, in Crayola.

I think what we need now is for a couple of Akulas to come & rattle the Deterrent good n proper...

It would be interesting if they decided to try that trick in the late spring of next year, eh?

[Blacksheep]

Ever since the UK became self-sufficient in food and oil, and we ceased to rely on seaborne trade to feed ourselves and provide power and travel, the Royal Navy and the RAF's maritime patrol capability have been redundant. With the end of the cold war, we no longer need airborne early warning. Then there's all this electronic intelligence gathering nonsense.

The Prime Minister is quite capable of committing the army to war without having to rely on intelligence: rest assured that when it comes to saving the world, he knows what is the right thing to do. Its a disgrace that we've wasted so much money on anti-submarine capability, early warning and intelligence gathering for so long when the money was desperately needed for more social workers and expansion of the probation service.

The C130 is quite capable of replacing both the Royal Navy and Nimrod, in fact, with that big bomb bay and the doors that open at the back it would make a really neat bomber and at a pinch, with some sidewinders hung on the wings we could use it for air defence.

[davejb]

Actually, I think his first sentence was about as good as it could get - well done that man, Booker prize material!

[tommee_hawk]

In fact, I imagine that the MR2 was offered up because it was going to be gone anyway within a few years. They've just grabbed at an OSD and gone "yes, we can move that forward," not thought about it.

So who's next for a cost-cutting early bath? The force multipliers at BZN due out of service during a similar time scale - the first jet off to the knacker's yard early next year followed by another every subsequent 6 months? :(

Then the FJs won't be able to make Vegas (or anywhere else), so hotel and subsistence costs slashed!!! :)

[fergineer]

Spock me old mucker......good to hear you are still in the fray......need someone like you to be still in there stirring things. Dont bother with the 1c just bash them with them brows of yours. Hope you are well.
Fergi

[SASless]

Originally Posted by stbd beam
I think what we need now is for a couple of Akulas to come & rattle the Deterrent good n proper...

But how would we know? They would have to surface and cruise up the Thames to say...oh....errrr.....Big Ben!

[The B Word]

Article 12(2) of the Convention on the High Seas, 1958, reads:
"Every coastal state shall promote the establishment and maintenance of an adequate and effective search and rescue service regarding safety on and over the sea and - where circumstances so require - by way of mutual regional arrangements cooperate with neighboring states for this purpose."


It doesn't say what is "adequate" though! Furthermore...


Both the 1958 Geneva Convention on the High Seas and the 1982 LOS Convention provide that every state shall require the master of a vessel flying its flag, insofar as can be done without serious danger to the ship, crew, or passengers, to render assistance to any person found at sea in danger of being lost and to proceed with all possible speed to the rescue of persons in distress if informed of their need for assistance, insofar as it can reasonably be expected.
In addition, SOLAS requires the master of every merchant ship and private vessel to assist persons in distress and to broadcast warning messages with respect to dangerous conditions or hazards encountered at sea.


Therefore, all we really need these days is to have an aircraft that can fly to the area (this will be known from the new 406MHz GPS beacons that SARSAT uses and are now mandated) and then has the capability to vector in ships in the area to go to the aid of the survivors. Therefore, if we had some to spare, a Herc could do this quite nicely (and deliver some goodies out the back as well). Also, the E-3D would be ideal for this task - less the dropping of goodies (and I don't mean Graham Garden, Tim Brooke-Taylor and Bill Oddie - although the latter would be a good idea!).

Sadly, it is not SAR that is Nimrod's "raison d'etre" - but we can't talk about specifics on that on here.

The B Word

[Fat Chris]

Sadly, it is not SAR that is Nimrod's "raison d'etre"

Agreed, but I'm not sure that anyone is trying to say that it is. It will become apparent though, that the disappearance of the MR2 from the SAR 'toolbox' will have an effect on the country's ability to protect those at sea. I am sure that other assets will bridge the gap in the meantime but you would find it difficult to argue that a cobbled-together solution is as good as, or efficient as the Nimrod can deliver.

As for the "raison d'etre" of which you speak, there is nothing in the cupboard to fill the gap in the same manner. Shout all you like about Merlins, Type 23's and SSN but they just can't do it.

[getsometimein]

Is it just me, or is this thread getting a little too close to capabilities....

[Biggus]

We'll be alright as long as nobody mentions the shields or phasers.......damn, too late!!!

[camelspyyder]

Biggus to be honest those systems seem more likely to be real than AUTOLYCUS-

an aircraft that sniffs for diesel fumes for chrissake!

Who'd believe that existed?

CS:)

[Shack37]

Biggus to be honest those systems seem more likely to be real than AUTOLYCUS-

an aircraft that sniffs for diesel fumes for chrissake!

Who'd believe that existed?



I would, worked on the original, efficacy questionable but lots of room for tobacco products in the ioniser.

[aw ditor]

Autolycus: useful for homing on the Ruhr when there was an easterly' in the North Sea. Rumour had it there was at least one "contact" during the Cuban Crisis. Don't knock it till youv'e tried it!

[Vage Rot]

Still, at least we can afford to spend millions replacing CS95 with a new pattern DPM.


When I'm skint, I don't buy new clothes - mind you, the wife still does! Is there a woman in charge of defence?? what was wrong with the old stuff?

[Biggus]

VR

Two sets of old stuff, greens and desert, only one set of new....

Cost saving measure (eventually)!!!

[VMD+12]

Haddon - Cave demonstrated what happens when you make savings (take risk) without understanding the potential consequences. I think this 'gapping' of the Nimrod's long range SAR capability and SAR scene controller may tragically come home to haunt those who decided to risk this gap in capability without understanding the limitations of those assets said to be providing it in the meantime.

[nigegilb]

Bringing forward Nimrod OSD was muted several months ago when the costs of getting the frames to an acceptable airworthiness condition became apparent. It was considered to be too expensive to fix. This is purely about trading off capability against cost. On paper there is a capability gap for a few short years, but there is a BIG risk in this decision. I am already hearing of problems with MRA4, (related to H-C). This is a calculated gamble, only time will tell if it is the correct decision. I and I suspect many others, would rather have seen the money spent on the existing airframe, which is already safer than it has been for many years.

Must be fairly desperate times in the Puzzle Palace...

[Lyneham Lad]

Pedant mode on.

Bringing forward Nimrod OSD was muted several months ago

Presumably you really meant to write 'mooted' rather than 'muted'. At least I hope so!

muted
Function: adjective
Date: 1855
1 a : being mute : silent b : toned down : low-key, subdued

moot
Function: transitive verb
Date: before 12th century
1 archaic : to discuss from a legal standpoint : argue
2 a : to bring up for discussion : broach b : debate

Pedant mode off!

[JamesA]

Old Fat One
Your retaliation has been scuppered - No more Eurostar till after Christmas. Obviously the Belgiques got wind of your masterplan.
However, I think they would have thwarted the Brits in the first place. Using their secret weapons, readily available at all good stores and pubs on the mainland i.e. excellent beers (real Belgiques don't drink Stella), and chocolates, what chance would U.K. stand.

davejb
I think you were taking a snipe at us Paddys. If it was a joke then I have bitten. Re WW2 and the Irish help, check how many allied aircrew were interned for the duration and how many senior British politicians and military staff were flown from Foynes to the U.S. and back. I think there was a fair amount of help for a 'neutral' country. Also, if a U-boat crew was ashore they were not at sea sinking allied ships - just a thought.

[nigegilb]

Thanks LL, you have no idea how knackered I am tonight. You obviously have the same OCD issues as myself......Ha ha.

[Nomorefreetime]

Platforms come and go...Bases get the chop...Lots more will be going in the next 10 years, but as always we overcome the problems.
I can imagine the uproar when the Flying Boats went out of service.("whats going to do its job now we can't land on the water")
Its a shame that a lot of the outgoing planes were British Built and will not survive to fly onwards like the Vulcan

[davejb]

Sorry James,
whilst 'returned rather than interned' aircrew was the norm, and a fair few Irish citizens made their way north to enlist, de Valera also refused the RN the use of the treaty ports - given the urgency of the Battle of the Atlantic (especially when you note that some of the shipping under threat was destined to supply Eire) I still think that suggests it'd be a rather stupid strategy that relied on the Irish filling in any gaps in UK defence.

Eire | Oxford Companion to World War II | MyWire (http://www.mywire.com/a/Oxford-Companion-World-War-II/Eire/9595469/)

- I'm not saying the Irish OUGHT to join in, I'm saying we'd be bloody stupid to rely on it.

[bakseetblatherer]

@Biggus, I thought so to. But according to BBC the new uniform is only replacing the green stuff, desert will remain so still... 2 sets no money saved.

[Could be the last?]

I assume that they will be changing the FRCS95 to match the new DPM?:confused:

[The Old Fat One]

Old Fat One
Your retaliation has been scuppered - No more Eurostar till after Christmas. Obviously the Belgiques got wind of your masterplan.

Fear not, I have a back up plan. I've picked up a load of second hand 737s from some geezer called Elias Elias, I met in the pub.

[PingDit]

Hang on a mo; I put down a deposit on those well before you!?

[navibrator]

I hope you've got good cards Sirs.

PS Fortunately, your opponent is not the sharpest cookie in the box.

Trouble is he holds a trump card called The Treasury

[bobward]

Here's a bit of thread creep.
Aren't Boeing building an ASW version of the Bo737 (P8?)
If we end up canning the MRA 4, what the betting that we get these instead?

...and, as a stop gap, people like EasyJet and Ryanair may have a couple we can lease. Look on it as training for the new tankers - you know, the ones we can lease to the airlines when the RAF are't using them.

Cynically yours.......

[getsometimein]

Apart from wasting 3.6 Billion on the MRA4... The P8 will cost X amount per aircraft, but will save us a few pennies each year as spares are cheaper...

But then its only a 2 Engine jet. and they are underslung engines.

But then again... It does have a couple of bunks for the crew :)

[RumPunch]

Well just to let you know MRA4 is paid for now, so I think it would be very stupid to can what has been bought outright and then spend another X billion on an aircraft that cannot fullfill a true role as an ASW platform. It is still in testing phase and is having huge vibration issues at low level with underslung engines (BAE get a lot of bad publicity but whoever engineered the P8 appears not have done there homework).

With no spares available and unlikely to get any better I fear that will be the main reason the project will get canx`d. With us being told for many years the Nimrod carries out more tasks than any other asset in the RAF and plays a huge role for the protection of the UK it would appear this was utter bullcrap.

Lies Lies and Lies, no shocks the truths come out now

[Biggus]

We initially signed up for 21 aircraft, we are getting 9. So there are 12 (ish) aircraft sets of spares sat around gathering dust somewhere ready for use!

Mind you, if you are an aircraft parts manufacturer, are you really interested in a long term contract to supply spares for a 9 aircraft fleet. I had heard that the Typhoon world (IPT) has already had to buy a lifetime supply of one particular spare, as they were soon to become no longer available!!!:hmm:

[Neptunus Rex]

Biggus, is that true? Nine aircraft?

When I joined Coastal Command in '66, we had eleven squadrons, plus MOTU and ASWDU. Altogether, that was more than 70 aircraft.

Unbelievable.

Neppie

http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/angryoldman.gif

[Biggus]

Neppie,

Yes - just 9 aircraft!

But on the plus side, to the best of my knowledge (standing by to be corrected), there will still be 2 Sqns and an OCU!!

That's one outfit too many for 9 a/c in my opinion, 2 Sqns, one of which has an embedded conversion flight, would be more appropriate in my opinion. Maybe someone is being clever, and by keeping 2 Sqns and an OCU it gives you the option to offer one up as a saving in the upcoming defence review?;)

[retrosgone]

Rum Punch writes

Well just to let you know MRA4 is paid for now, so I think it would be very stupid to can what has been bought outright and then spend another X billion on an aircraft that cannot fullfill a true role as an ASW platform. It is still in testing phase and is having huge vibration issues at low level with underslung engines (BAE get a lot of bad publicity but whoever engineered the P8 appears not have done there homework).

As a 6000 hour MR2 driver, and a current 737 pilot, I would be interested to know why the P8 is suffering vibration issues due to the underslung engines? They don't cause any problems at all on an any of the 6,000 737s in service today, and the engine position has very little bearing on the aircraft's handling qualities. There is an increased pitch/power couple of course, but that is easily dealt with by an efficient auto flight system and/or powerful stabiliser trim in manual flight. the 737 performance envelope is startlingly similar to that of the Nimrod, and Boeing's baby is a thoroughly reliable and robust old bus.

Of course, I don't know what effects the installation of a weapons bay, sensor antennae and other mods has had on the airflow and handling, but I can't personally see why the 737 airframe would not make a perfectly good basis for an ASW platform.

[SASless]

Did we not endure problems with "podded engines" where when one pukes up bits....the other one gulps them down and then suffers indigestion?

Could it be the concern is it ain't British built?

[Party Animal]

Retrosgone,

Not sure about the vibration problem but I understand from USN colleagues with similar levels of experience as yourself, that they have a number of concerns with the P8. Notably:

Very poor manouevreability at low level - limited to 30 Deg AOB with a correspondingly huge turning circle and a bumpy ride to match.

Poor range / endurance / payload for a new generation MPA/ISR platform and 2 engines is only 50% of 4.

It's a USAF 'style' aircraft i.e, they will need a bunch of techies to go with them every time they deploy and won't be able to use rough and ready strips that they sometimes have used in the P3.

Allegedly, the first issue will be overcome by not flying at low level (the P8 has also dispensed with the MAD) and the last issue will be familiar to you as a Nimrod mate. Other than that, stand by for a further slip to delivery dates.

On a separarte note - £3.6 Bil for 9 ac = £400 mil each for the MRA4. Is this the worlds second most expensive aircraft?

Best wishes to all at KIS this Christmas and the coming New Year...

[camelspyyder]

Very poor manouevreability at low level - limited to 30 Deg AOB with a correspondingly huge turning circle and a bumpy ride to match.

Same lim as the Nimrod has had for the last 40 years then.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

P3 always used to beat us on timed ASW attack comps beccause of our lack of manoe...(I cant be bothered trying to spell that)

Merry Xmas

CS:)

[Not Long Here]

Camelspyder - That will be 30 degrees AOB at 200ft incrementing up to 60 AOB at 500ft. Not quite the limitation you suggest.

How many times did a Nimrod and crew win the Fincastle?:}

[Fat Chris]

An excellent question, Not Long Here.

What are the 'final' stats?

[Not Long Here]

According to Wikipedia:

RAF 17
RAAF 13
RCAF 8
RNZAF 8

[camelspyyder]

NLH

I was deliberately as vague on the AOB lim as the quoter of the P8 limitations.

And even though I was on the Fincastle winning crew in '90, we lost the speed event casex, due to P3's getting back on top quicker.

CS:)

[TheSmiter]

Spyder - you've changed! :hmm: And one of your old boys was saying such good things about you in the Muckle Cross this evening! Anyway, Merrie Crimble to you, Mrs S and mini spyders.

Retrosgone - As a 6000 hour MR2 driver

Get some time in son. With a name like that, you must be a siggy made good, and a very lucky siggy too. Most of my time with the retro was making sure it had gone. :ooh:

but I can't personally see why the 737 airframe would not make a perfectly good basis for an ASW platform.

I have no problem at all with 737 (even with past rudder issues), but personally, at o-dark hours over the N Atlantic, with one donk out, I'm a lot happier with 3 more of Mr R-R's / BMW's finest to get me home for tea and medals.

[retrosgone]

Smiter-

No - I was never clever enough to be a siggy. I just always loved having something smoking in the water to look at - until the Nav mafia pinched the giant French revolver to pay for some new-fangled laser gyro thingy.

I can't compare the 737 with the MRA4 or the P3 of course - but compared with the MR2 it has a much better runway performance (great brakes and effective reverse thrust).

As for the limit to bank angle, the manoeuvre margins to stick shaker etc for a given speed are again very similar to those for the MR2 so perhaps they are being a bit cautious with a jet as opposed to the turbo-prop it replaces. There is of course the problem that an annoying American shouts "Bank Angle" at you every time you go past 30 degrees! As I recall, the Nimrod was never originally intended to spend much time at low level. The idea was to loiter at 20,000 feet monitoring the Jezebel field before swooping briefly to despatch the hapless sub with a brace of Mark 44 torpedoes. Unfortunately reality, as often happens, soon intruded. I can certainly agree that the 737 is horrible in turbulence - but then so is the P3.

The two engines versus four argument is well worn - and I can't argue with anyone who expresses a preference for as many engines as possible. Nonetheless, the CFM56 is incredibly reliable and pretty economical too. The P8 which I understand is a "hybrid" 737 7/800 airframe should easily equal the endurance of the MR2, though perhaps not the P3 or MRA4.

I also don't remember deploying anywhere without around 7 groundcrew in the back of a Mark 2, so toting engineers around would not be any change to RAF practice.

[Green Flash]

At the (very great, knowing Ppruners!) risk of being kicked senseless, has the A400M been mentioned? Dunno if it could be developed into an MPA, just asking a question. Standing by for the 'get-back-in-yer-box'!

(By the way, does the A400 have a name yet?)

[circle kay]

Is it not Belfast 2000?
I hope all in the frozen north are having as good a Christmas as they can after last weeks news
Regards to all CK

[ZH875]

By the way, does the A400 have a name yet?

Isn't it called "Mythical"?

[vecvechookattack]

es - just 9 aircraft!

But on the plus side, to the best of my knowledge (standing by to be corrected), there will still be 2 Sqns and an OCU!!

That's one outfit too many for 9 a/c in my opinion, 2 Sqns, one of which has an embedded conversion flight, would be more appropriate in my opinion. Maybe someone is being clever, and by keeping 2 Sqns and an OCU it gives you the option to offer one up as a saving in the upcoming defence review?


What a great idea.... Very clever

[Phoney Tony]

Just a thought, Torpy got rid of maritime AD (SHAR), and now the current management have put MPA on hold for a period before it gets the final chop. Is this the beginning of a plan to push the responsibility for maritime air to the RN?

[getsometimein]

But the SHar was manned by navy staff... So that kind of blows your theory out the Navy-led water.

[Phoney Tony]

Whilst I have the highest regard for RN staff officers and have admired their intellectual skills, they may have been led to believe the JHF was a good idea from which they could gain, but were led down the path by senior RAF officers with an alternate agenda.

[Hoots]

Does anyone know exactly how much money the government will save for taking the MR2 out of service a year early. or is it case that Nimrod is a bad word to politicians and they want to see the back of it no matter what it brings to the party? Seems to me it is being grounded through the back door by obstacles continuously being put in its way by those scared of any litigation should something, however unlikely now, go wrong.

Sometimes you don't realise what your going to miss until its gone and the stop gap measures are not what you have been briefed they are. I hope Mr Ainsworth knows what he is doing, but somehow I doubt it.

:ugh:

[RumPunch]

Plenty of people have put there oar in about the unsafe MR2, they can all be happy now.
For many people its the opposite and today is proof of that as 100 people were made redundent on the civvy side of things at Kinloss.

For an aircraft thats had 40 years of the finest service this surely this is not the ending that it deserves.

[getsometimein]

There is a vast saving made by ditching the Mk2 a year early (along with a few other things) and its in the region of £100 million.

Could argue the Nimrod fleet was lucky to make it the 2+ years after the XV230 incident. I'm sure more than £100 million has been spent taking it from pre 2006 state to ALARP.

[RumPunch]

Nimrod has been ****** over as a way to save money, looks like BBMF is next

Hard days to come but its when they take the Reds that the public might actually give a ****

Many books will be written in a few years but im so ashamed now to be part of something thats crumbling faster than the Berlin Wall.

[fergineer]

Rum.....Hopefully not too many more people will lose their jobs......I agree that taking operational aircraft before show aircraft makes no sense.....The few who talked loudest get the result, those that just did it and got on with it were not heard......maybe a govt change may change the decision or a bunch of subs descending on the Clyde again will make someone see the light.

[Biggus]

Now I may be as thick as a thick thing, but could somebody please explain to me how stopping the MR2 early saves £100 million - not that I'm saying it doesn't....

Apart from not burning the fuel, the following points need to be considered:

Kinloss is not closing - so no great saving in base running costs.

No RAF personnel are being made redundant, so no saving in the wage bill.

Most civil support contracts were probably in place to support the aircraft until Mar 2011, so breaking them early will probably invoke penalty clauses and produce little or no savings.

Most (all?) of the work been carried out to make the aircraft ALARP has already been done.

The Nimrod IPT's budget for MR2 was much less than £100 million.



All of the above comments are my own interpretation of the situation, and may be incorrect. However, if I am not way off the mark, where has this £100 million saving come from? Hopefully anyone who knows and is willing/able to expand will answer this question which is asked out of curiousity and in good faith...

I'm not after ...."if we didn't cut the MR2 where else would we save money".. or "the MR2 wasn't contributing anything".... type responses thank you.

[Spam_UK]

Whilst we can all agree that its a shame that the MR2 has gone out of service early, are we not now crying over spilt milk?

As the Station Commander said, the decisions been made, the time for arguing about it is over and any more will be detremental. (Or along that drift)

Should we not just concentrate on giving the old girl a send off to remember (which is shaping up nicely!)

Spam

[getsometimein]

I believe the Nimrod force costs in the region of 700million a year (including staff and materials).

So along with no more fuel being burnt, you've no radars breaking, no engines needing serviced, no more jets in deep maintainence regimes..

There's plenty of slots for aircrew elsewhere so I'm sure a bulk of them will be sent away soon enough, and theres little requirement for groundcrew, again i'm sure there will be an exodus on that front soon enough.

Part of all this was the delay of the MRA4, some 2 years later we are to expect it... So there are less flying hours on that as well...

Cant say exactly where each pound is being saved, but needless to say the (what I heard) 180 people who got redundency the other day are just a big group, lots of other people have got it and not been mentioned in the news.

[Biggus]

Getsometimein,

I have no idea where you get your figure of £700 million from, but it has got to be way out, probably by a factor of 10.....

From what I have picked up from generally just being "defence aware"...

Cost of running Lyneham, and therefore savings, have been stated recently in parliament as about £50 million a year..... So, cost per year?

Industry support contract announced for Typhoon for 5 years was about £500 million..... Cost per year again?

Industry costings to support 9 MRA4s for 5 years started off at about £500 million before cuts... Once again, annual costings?

Nimrod MR2 IPT budget, when there were seperate MR2/MRA4 IPTs, to support/maintain the fleet was in terms of 10s of millions, say 30-40.

So, a station costs say £50 million to run, support contracts cost say £50 million, so where dos the rest of your £700 million come from.

Repairing radars, servicing engines, deep maintence will all come under costs borne either by the IPT or the station. We are also talking about 10 odd airframes.....

Sorry, as I said I may be as thick as a thick thing, and please, please understand I am not having a "go" at you personally, I just can't see where the number £700 million comes from.....

I'm not asking you to account for every pound, just some £600 million odd?


By the way, I was of the opinion the RAF was short of TG1 personnel, and several bases with a less operational focus have been running undermanned for years....so your comments reference aircrew and groundcrew may end up the other way around....

[Kitbag]

Even the units with ongoing operational focus are running at less than 100% manning within TG1. Seem to recall a policy of best maximum 95%, but since the Manning figures are now hidden in the inaccessible (to me at least) RAF Placement Plan who knows? Some squadrons are fully manned but with a lot of newbies, and they have, of course, been through the LEAN machine which means there is no fat to carry the new kids.

Sadly this is spin and desperate attempts to make H-C go away whilst pretending to make savings.

Frankly any modern politician is a waste of oxygen

Better stop now, BP on the rise

[FATTER GATOR]

MR2s stop flying - savings on fuel

Civilian airfield services - small saving

Kinloss stays open - no savings

No RAF personnel are being discharged (yet) - no savings to defence

Depth support contract is not being refunded - no savings

RR engine contract is not being refunded - no savings

Most spares are provisioned as per before - no savings

Non-attributable spares - small saving

R1 keeps flying - no savings

Design authority still on contract with BAE - no savings

Nimrod R1/MR2 Project Team remains for the R1 - no savings


So unless I have missed something really obvious, I conclude that:

'Vast saving..... in the region of £100million' (getsometimein) - incorrect

'the Nimrod force costs £700million a year' (getsometimein) - utter kack


Where do you get your sums from??

FG
(bored of Kinloss - serving out FRI)

[4mastacker]

The value of the perceived savings had me scratching my follicley-challenged head thinking ‘wtf did that figure come from?’ Then it occurred to me that the figure might have been the creation of the Satan Spawn aka Budget Managers. Correct me if I am wrong, but with the introduction of RAB, wasn’t every asset given a value that would show up on the books? Therefore if we have ‘x’ number of aeroplanes ’ @ ‘y’ value each, with the simple multiplication of ‘x’ times ‘y’ then getsometimein’s figure becomes quite plausible (e.g. 10 a/c @ £10m* each = £100m). So, in the true ‘Sir Humphrey’ spinning tradition of MoD, by using the value of the assets rather than their running costs someone can say 'Look at me, I've saved……..…..simples!!


* variable depending on how impressive you want the overall “savings” figure to be.

[getsometimein]

£2.8 billion MRA4 contract now £.36 billion (Final Figure?)

£16 billion initial life contract. Assuming this ends up 33% over that (as has getting the aircraft initially), that means a 30 year life (assumed) ends up being shy of £22 billion, giving just over £700 million a year... Simple numbers.

I'm sure there is few station commanders or higher around to let us know exactly what they have to spend money on... But the list is near endless...

And apparently the Navy Merlins are 40% undermanned... So what shall we do with all these maritime experts doing nothing at Kinloss?

[Biggus]

getsometimein,

Your figure of £700 million a year running costs now appears to relate to MRA4, so, whether or not that figure is correct....

Once again, I would ask what savings have been achieved by folding the MR2 fleet early? That is a different question to any savings made by slowing introduction of the MRA4....

Regarding shortages in the RN Merlin fleet, is it aircrew or groundcrew (or both?)? I believe I have read on other pprune threads that some RAF groundcrew were/are(?) on loan to the RN rotary world. If you are talking about aircrew, how long would it take to turn a RAF mult engine jet pilot into a rotary pilot on RN exchange, 2 years maybe? The only Nimrod aircrew who could move across fairly quickly, if there is actually a need, and the RN training machine could cope with the burden, would be a few acoustically trained WSOps.

[getsometimein]

Who know EXACTLY how the 100 million applies in real world terms when it comes to getting rid of the fleet a year early... But thats the figure in the press and around bazaars...

Target Lock: Nimrod : Production (http://www.targetlock.org.uk/nimrod/production.html)

Seems like people are being very agressive when it comes to this... But these things are actually this expensive...

[DICKY the PIG]

The savings to the MOD budget are:
This year-£50 million, by ending the MR2's stirling service a year early.:sad:
Next year-£60 million by slowing down the introduction of the MRA4.
I think that makes £110 million not £700 million.
Of course after SDR when they announce............:=

[Strato Q]

The savings to the MOD budget are:
This year-£50 million, by ending the MR2's stirling service a year early.
Next year-£60 million by slowing down the introduction of the MRA4

The Pig is almost correct; the slashing of the MRA4 support money (£110m) announced was for FY 10/11 and 11/12, nothing to do with taking the MR2 out of service early. The Nimrod IPT's annual budget for both MR2 and R1 is considerabley less than £100m, with two fifths being taken by the R1. Therefore, at best, the saving is around the £50m however in real terms it will be far less. In the meantime we take risk in all the core MR2 roles while we slow down the MRA4's introduction.:ugh:

[MAD Boom]

Quote:

'There's plenty of slots for aircrew elsewhere so I'm sure a bulk of them will be sent away soon enough, and theres little requirement for groundcrew, again i'm sure there will be an exodus on that front soon enough.'

Am I missing something here? Er, where exactly are these slots? Don't know many other RAF aircraft fitted with maritime search radars, acoustic processors or electro-optic sensors, but standing by to be re-briefed.

[RumPunch]

With all this going on they have bought 3 ex USAF aircraft to replace the R1, with there mods and refits this will cost more than £100 Million per a/c , just makes you wonder if there is seperate budgets for MR2 and R1. It appears not as its more important to fly R1s than have MR2s, but Im sure its been thought through and I trust the MOD for making the choice. End of the day they have to make cuts , MR2 first then VC10 next year , much saving im sure.

[Hoots]

Would be nice if Mr Ainsworth or Mr Broone came to Cottesmore and Kinloss to have a bit of an open forum to at least face the people they are affecting.

It seems that recent media stories has the CGS and 1st Sea Lord posturing to fight their corner from cutbacks, maybe they should unite and provide a united front against the forcast 15-20% reductions. For years sucessive governments have been putting off and mismanaging procurement of our clapped out AT,SH and MPA forces so that now they are all on their knees at the same time and will cost cash that they starved from the MOD. Mr Prudence and no more boom and bust has taken this starvation to new levels. As the health, education and welfare budgets (the vote winning ones apparently) drain the country's resources he is going to further reduce the defence budget if he remains in power. No doubt the conservatives will do the same but then blame NuLabour for it (just as Labour do, with the pre 1997bunch that we keep hearing the PM refer to when he doesnt answer his questions in PMQ's and refers to figures that are manipulated). But then some military seniors do that also e.g. A 50% increase in annual spending per Nimrod became <0.1% if you didn't round it up the the nearest £m and went for the opposite end of the spectrum and took it at it's worst possible case. So we are where we are and who knows what the post SDR RAF will look like, but at the very least Mr Ainsworth or Broone, show some backbone and come to the stations and have an open forum ideally before your kicked out of office. Years of underinvestment have come home to roost, so wherever your are folks good luck and hang on for a bumpy ride ahead.

ps, fast jet types a question, what has been arranged to assist you should you have to bang out at long range (outside helo coverage) from the UK coastline and in what timescale post 31 Mar? Might be worth getting a brief from the ARCC to find out what the options are.

:ok:

[RumPunch]

Amazing Brown I cant recall ever coming to Kinloss especially after post 06, correct me if im wrong but I like many hundreds at the base were OOA for a long time.
Ainsworth came to Kinloss a few times but from all the conversations that was had he left more hated than when he arrived.

Politicians have a job and its not nice , you cant keep all happy but Gordon Brown surely is up for eviction.

As a Scotsman Im very dissapointed and I cant wait to have an Englishman back in charge :ok:

[glad rag]

As a Scotsman Im very dissapointed and I cant wait to have an Englishman back in charge

+1 for sure.

Very sorry to hear of the connies being binned, had the same happen to me 23rd Dec, only in Europe. :uhoh: Not a lot of work around just now.:uhoh::uhoh:

GR

[Ginger Beer]

Just where are these slots for the now un-needed Kinloss Aircrew??

Most of the AEOp guys I speak with are looking at naff holds around the country in the hope of getting back involved with the MRA4, if it or Kinloss still exists post SDR.

What about the MR2 Flight Engineers ? There's about 20 or so of them up there and only a couple have been offered any role as a FE. Most are having to sell up at short notice, relocate their families to another part of the Nation and will not even be FEs any more, they are likely to be LMs for the rest of their time.

Many I know are content with a restream however, the jobs on offer are all the cr@p jobs that even the LMs didn't want to fill. It looks like a bit of a poor show i.e. take the job away early and then shove them into the sh!t!e5t jobs too. Sweet.

Good luck fellas.

Ginge

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Ginge,

In the current job market it's hardly a bad deal fella :ok:

[Phoney Tony]

Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Dalton - Defense News (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4498481)


Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Dalton
Britain's Chief of Air Staff

Published: 15 February 2010

Q. Is that the same for SIGINT? What replaces the R1 Nimrods? Rivet Joint?

A. The R1s are staying until 2015, but a number of possible solutions to meet the requirement of Project HELIX to replace the Nimrod R1 capability have been identified. We expect to make a decision shortly. We are looking for a complementary, interoperable and compatible capability to that provided by the R1, and the Rivet Joint option certainly provides that. Discussions are ongoing.

[Fat Chris]

Do you think he meant 2015 o'clock, pm, in the evening? That'd be about right for an R1 crew's bedtime - teeth out, warm milk poured, leccy blanket off......checks complete.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Knowing that if you have to fit the other one for fast jet operations you can do that, even if it takes months or years

Years, eh? Well, he’s grasped that. So how about Upkeep periods then? No strike carrier?

[Ginger Beer]

Can any "grown-ups" in the know, please confirm if the R1 is due out of service in March 2011 or is it now as ACM Dalton states 2015?

Regards

Ginge

[mra4eng]

The MRA4 support solution in the first couple of years will be a simplified version of a traditional R&O service which means that the "Partnered Support" solution that was being designed by BAE has effectively been frozen with a view to re-visiting it in the future - but we know it never will of course.

The solution that BAE designed has cost the taxpayer more than £180 million. That's a not insignificant sum to flush down the toilet. If the public knew how much of their money was being continually wasted because of the incompetance of the senior officers, they'd be sickened.

[Distant Voice]

Has "Bob Ainsworth's" first Nimrod MK 4 arrived at Kinloss yet, or has it gone to Warton?

DV

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

DV,

It's not at Kinloss yet.

Duncs:ok:

[ANW]

PA04 still at Woodford. (http://www.edendale.co.uk/ANW/WFD.801.8.html) PA05, due to fly shortly.

[Distant Voice]

ANW.

Yes I know that the conversions are being carried out at Woodford, but I had heard a story that some flying training was to be undertaken at Warton. Could be wrong.

DV

[Squirrel 41]

Bone Question time here - and sorry if I've missed the answer elsewhere. Now that the R1s are apparently being replaced by RJs, what is happening to the 3 prototype MRA4s? How much work would be required to bring them up to production standard?

Cheers,

S41

[RumPunch]

There is only 2 prototype MRA4s remaining , PA3 is being dismantled to be made into PA12 and the 2 remaining are to be sent to Kinloss to join the list of MR2s for scrapping. Thats only what I heard :E

[Squirrel 41]

Cheers RumPunch.... so that means a max of 11 airframes constructed? Who agreed this, I wonder?

S41

[641st]

Rum
PA3 will be PA13, not PA12

[Distant Voice]

Not sure if this is the correct thread, but it is part of the Nimrod story.

In the very early 70's, torpedo (MK 46?) release and tracking trials were carried out on the Autec range, Andros Island. Two Nimrod Mk1's were involved; does anyone know the tail numbers? I know that on the last sortie we loaded up nine "fishes" and they all went.

DV

[richlear]

Anyone know of plans for a farewell party for the MR2?

Looking for an excuse for a good p*ss-up!

Cheers

rich

[Radley]

Hanger Party On The 31st Mar.

[mra4eng]

The Chief of the Air Staff (CAS) Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Dalton had the opportunity to fly on the first production Nimrod MRA4 aircraft on a recent visit to Warton. During a very successful 90 mins flight CAS saw each element of the mission system in action and even experienced first-hand, the agile handling of the aircraft from the flight deck.
On landing, CAS said: "It was a great flight and very, very useful for me to understand precisely what has been done to develop the capability and to make the aeroplane basically a weapon system of choice for the role we’re going to do. It does seem that actually the aeroplane is now ready to go into operational service, both from the point of view of the aircrew up the front and also the operators in the rear part. They understand the systems, the systems are now working and therefore the quality of what we’re going to get. Once we’ve got our own people properly trained it should be really good."

[Distant Voice]

mra4eng;

Any reason why the CAS was flying from Warton (See my posting #153)?

Where is the farewell to the Mk2 taking place Kinloss or Waddington?

DV

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

DV

Why would you think that the farewell to the MR2 would take place at Waddington? There will be a crew on RS120 (2hr standby) for SAR/Ops till 2359 on 31 Mar 10 at Kinloss! I believe that the landing of the last planned sortie - other than post OSD disposals - will kick off the hangar bash.

Duncs:ok:

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

DV,

Re your post 153, the MRA4 hasn't 'gone' to Warton - that's where it is built (or at least completed AFAIK!). I don't think that any will come direct from Woodford.

The Nimrod MRA4 OCU is at Kinloss and currently converting aircrew.

Duncs:ok:

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Woodford has the producion line for MK4s; Warton has the training facilities and most of the test flying programme.

[Valiantone]

Woodford also now has a potential grave yard for the Prototype MRA.4s

see here

Woodford 07/03 (http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=20618)

but at least the second production airframe has actually flown!

and see here

Nimrod at Manchester 08/03 (http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=20646)


V1

[Distant Voice]

With regards to where the initial training is to be carried out, please read the following article. It seems that as yet we do not have a Release to Service.

Nimrod MRA4 Declared 'Ready to Train' - BAE Systems (http://www.baesystems.com/Newsroom/NewsReleases/autoGen_110212113424.html)


DV

[Distant Voice]

Saw this in a local newspaper

www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1527534 (http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1527534)


DV

[Hoots]

MR2 out of service early, political or financial, you decide. I know which one I would go for.

sometimes you don't know what you've lost till it's gone as is safer now than ever.

Still waiting on Mr Brown or Ainsworth to visit.

[davejb]

I for one wanted to hear that the MR2 had been made safe, then expected (naively) that it would remain in service while the MR4 came online, much as we transitioned from MR1 to MR2 (also while we were at war, funny old thing, innit?)

I would say that in all fairness that was probably the intention, then as more and more dirty washing was aired, particularly following the Haddon-Cave report, it became obvious that the money being spent was never going to result in a whiter than white MR2, so the plug was pulled.

I don't really see how anyone in the chain of command, or more appropriately the chain of decision, could be expected post coroner and pre H-C to realise that the MR2 would prove to be beyond redemption, so fixing it (provided it seemed to be economically viable versus operational requirements) made sense...then H-C showed that the required fix would be astronomically expensive and take so long that MR4 would be online anyway. To my mind this article was full of 20:20 hindsight, and is unfair... would everyone REALLY have been happy if MR2 had been withdrawn from service immediately after that dreadful day and the capability gap had been even longer?

Canning MR2 was, overall, a political decision I am sure - but economically it made a good deal of sense too. You really shouldn't castigate people for not making major decisions at the instant that becomes apparent only in hindsight 2 years down the line.

16 million quid, by the way, is probably what the Ministry of Silly Walks spends on paper clips every quarter.... the bankers cost us BILLIONS, a sense of scale might not go amiss.

Dave

(I do agree with the P&J caption, I too am beginning to regard the subject of the photo attached to that article as 'dreadful')

[Distant Voice]

davejb;

What technical defects were uncovered by H-C that were not clear at the time of the inquest?

DV

[davejb]

Your contention then is that the Nimrod was beyond fixing, and therefore the initial decision to fix it so that operational capability could be restored was obviously flawed from the start, and that this was therefore a foolish decision, presumably?

I don't think, to be honest, you'll find that everyone agrees with that opinion.

[Distant Voice]

davejb;

You have not answered my question.

DV

[davejb]

Because your question is founded on what I consider to be a false premise...similar to questions about whether one still beats ones wife.

New technical info from H-C, no, although I would say that until H-C the true scale of how much needed fixing was not clear, if that is in fact the case post H-C. I believe that there was a desire to provide two paths to safe operation of the MR2 post crash - (1) Identification and rectification of those items that posed a significant threat to the aircraft's ability to operate safely, and (2) changes in the way the aircraft was operated - eg cessation of AAR. Unfortunately the PR side of the equation was ignored, the RAF/MoD did not understand that even getting 1 and 2 right would not be enough, because they had lost the confidence of the public who would not accept that perhaps they had in fact now made the aircraft safe. Considering the aircraft's contribution in a number of roles over the decades I consider it a shame that it was seen to be simpler to retire the aircraft early and accept the capability gap.

[andgo]

Jimmy Jones can 'suspect' all he wants. Maybe one day he will actually say something to the press that he 'knows for a fact' instead of making himself look silly to those who do know.:=

[Hoots]

Well said Andgo.

[Distant Voice]

davejb;

The defective items (hot air ducting) were known about in June 2005; 33 sections were identified as being "life expired and required replacement" by BAe Systems following the XV227 incident. Had the replacement programme been initiated then perhaps the Nimrod fleet could have been saved, along with 14 lives. The BOI appear to have turned a blind eye to the report, as they fail to mention it in their report, along with a recommendation to replace hydraulic pipe couplings.

DV

[davejb]

...or isolation of the SCP. My point being that changes in the way the aircraft was operated would appear to have removed the danger, but the furore prevented that from being considered an adequate response. I'm not arguing that post 227 the right thing was done, but neither am I convinced that the correct thing has been done in the past couple of years.

MR2 is currently still flying, that it will shortly stop doing that is a PR/Political decision I suspect.

[berzerker]

PA4 at Warton, PA5 at Scumchester

[Distant Voice]

davejb;

I am afraid it was just one thing after another, no sooner was one fault mitigated another came to light. AAR was "on" and "off" several times with ever decreasing fuel loads; SCP and cross feed systems were isolated only to find that shut off valves were leaking and 34 had to be changed. Finally store release devices failed because the bomb bay heating system has been switched off since Sept 2006. And the hits just keep coming.

DV

[downsizer]

Can we not let it go now?:ugh:

[Hoots]

BBC News - Nimrod withdrawal 'puts lives at risk' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/8587201.stm)

And before you ask it wasn't me who contacted them, but be interesting to hear the MoD response.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

It wisnae me, either!

I have just read the P&J link - I had previously read the article in the paper. I concur with the picture's title - Jimmy Jones: 'dreadful'.

Duncs:ok:

[old-timer]

I concur with Dundee & Jimmy Jones;

what a sad tale, wasted ££££££, no suitable (?) a/c until 2012 & the 'issues' leading up to the withdrawal- deepest respects to the families & friends of the incident a/c lost.

[OpsLoad8]

As a long time observer of the forums, I have enjoyed virtually everything that has been said. Over the years, the various Nimrod threads have been informative (some being downright funny); they have highlighted numerous shortcomings (which I suspect can be applied to other fleets) and have brought the maritime community together following the tragic loss of 230. This loss and the subsequent inquiries have highlighted numerous processes within the MoD/RAF that have either failed or have had a 'blind-eye' turned.

Some of the recent comments in threads have riled me. I am glad we have free speech, but we always seem to hear from those who shout loudest with the least amount of knowledge.

The loss of our friends and colleagues and the subsequent political embarrassment have caused (in many eyes) the name Nimrod to become a dirty word. It is now synonymous with bad news. (I understand that at one stage it was even contemplated changing the name of the MRA4.) And yet for the many of us who have spent many hours training, flying on Ops, flying on SAR and participating in Exercises in all corners of the world, being tarnished in this is way is just plain wrong. It saddens me greatly. The powers above decided late last year that the easiest way to cleanse the system was to withdraw her from service early, accept a capability gap and try and convince people that the RAF and RN had other assets that could cover the shortfall until the MRA4 arrived. Only time will tell whether this is successful or not.

As a result of the inquiries, it became necessary to fix the aircraft so that she could continue to provide the service for which she is known. Unfortunately, due to the nature of many of our tasks, Joe Public does not know most of what we do, but these tasks are important both nationally and internationally. It is only now, within hours of the last flight, that some of these issues are being highlighted.

The Scottish press have just highlighted this with the comments of a ‘Senior Officer’ (Post 185 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/8587201.stm)). The Top Cover for Rescue 169 is an example of what the Nimrod does - locating vessels for other SAR assets working at the limits of their range, so that the casualty can be recovered to hospital as soon as possible. Quite rightly, the rescue was reported (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8573877.stm) and yet someone within the MoD walls embargoed any reference to the Nimrod. That dirty word again. It would be embarrassing for the decision makers to have headlines highlighting the work of the Nimrod, an aircraft that will be soon withdrawn from service for (in my view) the flimsiest of reasons and within an obscenely short timeframe. I feel sure that our colleagues in the yellow helicopters were pleased that the money had been spent on the Nimrods, thus knowing that there was someone else watching out for them on those long over water transits.

Unfortunately I cannot be there to celebrate the life of the Nimrod MR1/MR2 but wish everyone there a good time. It has not always been a bed of roses, but everyone (all at Kinloss, St Mawgan and Luqa) have given 100%, supporting the aircraft, earning the reputation that she richly deserves. Long may it continue with the MRA4.

OL8

[fincastle84]

I've just watched the early Sky news item on today's final Nimrod flight with a tear in my eye & a lump in my throat. It has brought back so many memories of good times, great mates, challenging tasks & wonderful places visited. Above all the unforgettable smell of the mixture of smoking jez paper, honkers stew & hydraulic fluid.

Good luck to you all at EGQK today. My heart & thoughts will be with you all & particularly with the 'Mighty Hunter'.

Spock

[fergineer]

spoken like the gentleman you were and still are Spock. You introduced me to the Maritime world and I appreciated what you did for me in the time I knew you,,,,,,,great guys great crews and above all a great aircraft to fly in. enjoy the rest guys you deserve it.

[Akrotiri bad boy]

I had cause to contact Kinloss ops this Tuesday to discuss the contents of a planned sortie. Even with just a few days left to go the folk there were eager to help, suggested alternatives, and offered support. More than this they continued to remain upbeat whilst having the rug pulled from under them.

Until the new wonderjet appears thanks to all at ISK, see you in 2012.

Have a good watch.:D

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Fergineer,

Thanks for the thoughts, but there is not much rest to be had: rest assured that the citizens of Forres will have to work on their own gardens! We will be taking advantage of all available opportunities to ensure that the MRA4 enters Service with the aircrew and groundcrew champing at the bit and as well prepared as we (they) possibly could be ensure that the new jet provides as much capability as possible in as short a time as possible.

We might have a break this evening, though:E

Duncs:ok:

[gsxrww]

check out sky news' coverage.

[zedder]

We might have a break this evening, though

Are you taking Daz on again? If so, leg or arm?!!!

[zedder]

By the way Duncs, are you a Northern Scot or a Southern Scot?;)

[Distant Voice]

So how do we provide SAR top cover from midnight, tonight? Was consideration ever given to keeping, say six Nimrods?

DV

[getsometimein]

How many times do we have to answer the "How do we cover SAR" question....

[Shackman]

As someone who 'cut my teeth' in the maritime world I'd just like to add my thanks to all at ISK for past camaradarie and help, and my sorrow at seeing the expertise left to wither on the vine until the arrival of the mythical beast that is MRA 4. :ok:

As a 'baby' maritime Shack pilot I attended the Coastal Command disbandment at St Mawgan, and marvelled at the display of the (yet to be delivered) Nimrod by the BAe test pilot - and then again at the less than impressive first one to arrive at Changi, although watching the fire tenders chase it down the runway was mildly amusing. On both MR and AEW SAR was always a high priority, and I well remember providing top cover for everything from Whirlwinds (at up to 90 miles from the coast - who remembers the 'Amberley') to Sea Kings (considerably further).

I then went rotary myself, and have been extremely grateful to see the Nimrod above when many miles out which has then been able to talk me on to the casualty without a protracted search, as well as the feeling of security top cover gives you (why is it everything sounds like it's about to fail or laboured as soon as you coast out).

I know this has been done to death throughout this thread, but I just hope that we don't have reason to regret the passing of the mighty hunter in all the areas it has been operating. I will raise a glass tonight to all in maritime both past and present. :sad:

PS - Who is covering SAR within the UK area of responsibilty as of midnight?

[russabbottsouperhero]

Folks,
A very sad day, and I hope all have a hooley to remember tonight - wish I was there. Had a couple of drams downtown Darwin tonight!!
Here's to the future, and the capability that the present crews will take forward; we are, and will continue to be, the best there is.
From Down Under............:ok:

[shiny_shoes]

All the very best to everyone at Kinloss. I left the RAF last year and would have loved to have been able to get back to the UK for the final farewell.

Sorry to see the Nimrod go, was a great aircraft to fly on and I was lucky to work with some great people.

Regards and good luck for the MRA4.

Last thought...
Contact in Hidar 66, Type 6 Sierra, Hdg 266 6kts or Six speaker surround stereo,,,,trying saying them with a lisp!!;)

[davejb]

Sorry, but...
So how do we provide SAR top cover from midnight, tonight? Was consideration ever given to keeping, say six Nimrods?


Are you serious? I thought you considered Nimrod only fit for a static display?

A great pity that the weather has done what it has today - not that the SAR crew won't get airborne if needed between now and midnight, they'll land anywhere from Inveness to Lajes if need be, as has been proved time and time again. It has scuppered the odd flypast, which is unfortunate.

An excellent aircraft that I spent my whole career on, wet you-know-what sorties being the worst (sorry, but chasing certain classes was less than inspiring...I always liked the huge floating magnets tethered to helium filled balloons idea personally). The best sorties - (1) any detachment outbound, especially the ones that started with 'keep your eyes on my bag Sgt' - 'Captain port beam, just lost visual on your bags...'.

(2) Any det going somewhere unusual
(3) JMC etc... any sorties that really made use of radar and ESM <g>
(4) A dry cat ride for Glenn (Sqn Ldr last I saw, about 1990, but then a mere 4th dry)... Al Masson turns to me and says 'are you always so relaxed calling a riser? Do you get so many of them you think it's a run of the mill occurrence?' - (or words to that effect)... Me: 'yeah, pretty much'. So I guess '4' is 'any trip with Al Bone', on the grounds that most of my career happened in my first 4 years on a squadron, and here's a nod to Dave Jenkins (AEO, RIP also I believe, unfortunately) who kept me almost on the straight and narrow at the time.

I used to like stage 2 if the wetties gave the drymen a go too.... that stupid Playstation by the Nav's sunblind messed that up of course....

I (personally) also liked the AEO's I flew with - they put up with a lot more from me than vice versa, I also had a lot of good Nav's... and pilots... there's a trend developing here.... I left because although I liked the people, I didn't like the management.

Dave

[wetone]

Wish I could have made it today to ISK to enjoy the passing of an era.

You'll be sadly missed old lady but lets hope it's not too long before the guys are enjoying honkers once again :p.

Best wishes from rural Lincolnshire. Hope the heads are not too sore tomorrow :sad:,

Yours Aye,

Wetone

[fincastle84]

and here's a nod to Dave Jenkins (AEO, RIP also I believe, unfortunately)
A true friend & gentleman, unusual praise for an AEO!

On behalf of all the Navs who have been lucky enough to serve on the Nimrod:

Farewell good friend, we loved you.:ok:

[fergineer]

Farewell from me too and davejb it was a pleasure to fly with you and the Bone crew and aye Dave was a great guy who I sang lotsof folk music with in various bars around the world. Good luck to the guys still in when they get the MR4 I am sure you will use your expertise on it to make it sing. Farewell to the Air Engs hope you get gainful employment soon.

[Neptunus Rex]

Hear, hear Spock!

A wonderful aircraft, with magnificent crews, both air and ground, and those tremendous, noisy RR Speys that never let us down.

Vale, vale, venerable steed.

http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/sadwavey.gif

[fincastle84]

Bl00dy sad but proud to have served, eh Charles?

[The Poison Dwarf]

So many good people.
So many good times.
A lot of good flying, Mk1 and Mk2 (even Tapestry!).

All left to decay by the bean counters, expenses-fiddling politicians and the "my men will cope" attitude, compounded by the fact that "my men" DID cope.

"Whom the Gods would destroy they first make mad."
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

[fincastle84]

(even Tapestry!).

I hate to disagree, but you must be a member of the 2 winged master race to express such an emotion!

Spock

[Neptunus Rex]

Dam* right Spock.

So many great memories.
Like when you and I were students on the OCU and helped educate the staff (younger than us) at Akrotiri?
Then the day we got bounced by a Phantom and got into his six! Now that was a crew effort. The sensor operators and the beam lookouts called the shots. Relying on them, I turned into the bogey, decelerating, reversed the turn, full chat and forced the fly through. I could not see the aggressor until he flew past. That was CRM at its best, long before it became fashionable elsewhere!
Taking a huge gull down the throat of #1 just before V1 at Gibraltar, and Mr Spey, despite damaged blades, delivering full reverse.
Being ordered by 'Bog H' to wire Ascension on departure, then dropping down to 'serve' HMS Invincible before spotting and chasing the Bear Delta.
Dropping Lindholme Gear on a stricken freighter in the Atlantic from 200 feet, in 90 knots of wind with the radalt showing 80 foot seas.
Landing back at St Mawgan with a crosswind above the limit, to find that the Boss, who was in the tower, told ATC not to tell us the true wind.
Flying round Bermuda at 200 feet with HE the Governor (ex WWII Spitfire pilot) in the Right Hand Seat, growing horns. Teed off the resident USN Orion squadron, but we had top cover.

I could go on, but the main point is that we were fortunate to fly a wonderful aircraft in an era when men were men with great crews and good leaders.

But that was a quarter of a century ago. Spooky, eh?

[FE Hoppy]

Sad day.
Great memories.

[olddog]

A sad day indeed, but a life time of memories and stories to recall. I spent half my 39 years in the RAF flying maritime, enjoyed almost every minute, great aeroplanes, great people who I still number amonst my best friends and that truly wonderful spirit that helped us be the best in the world. Such a shame that the politicions failed to adequately support our ageing aircraft in her latter years.

I attended the functions at KS last Friday and was pleased to see the Maritime/Nimrod spirit still alive and well. Everyone, old and younger, was up beat and positive.

Good luck to those who fly the MRA4, I'm sure, in time, it will be another world beater!

[Rocket2]

Although only groundcrew on South Line in the '90's, the missus & I loved our time at ISK & miss it a lot. We had some great times & some really gut wrenching ones, knowing many of the aircrew lost on both the recent accidents that have probably led to the premature demise of the most versatile Nimmy. I had some fantastic & memorable trips with you guys, being in the cockpit while the pilots seemingly effortlessly prodded into a VC-10 & then a Timmy while tanking non-stop to Ascension, then having to hitch a ride home on a Timmy after we had to abandon the aircraft on the pan there after it got hit by a flock of Gannets while doing a training sortie, I subsequently tried tanking in the sim, managed to connect once for about 30 secs but would have wiped out the tankers or "my crew" many other times - respect to you guys! I was lucky to get a 6 week stretch in Jax with all the local (& not so local) flying that I could afford from the Navy club there. So many more sights, sounds, even the more mundane deployments such as a week at Yeovilton were always hard work but hugely enjoyable, & then theres the unforgetable smell & taste of Honkers Stew - life is so dull in comparison.
Thanks guys & gals of Kipper fleet everywhere
God Speed
R2

[CT HOMER]

Many thanks to the crew who provided the flypast over the Sgts mess for the NLS dining in night despite the foul weather. The photo looks good to you did us proud. How ironic that the lineys were blessed with the final flight.:D

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Not sure that it is ironic - possibly appropriate!

Duncs:ok:

[betty swallox]

Aye. A sad day indeed. Good party, loads of old faces. Loads of great stories. And the irrepressible Kinloss spirit

[tilleydog1]

A very sad day to see this wonderful aircraft retired. Had some wonderful detachments with the squadrons in the late 70's, probably the most memorable moment was in Karachi listening to the longest, most boring concert you could imagine and being nudged awake by the CO and being reminded that the squadrons motto was 'Endurance' really learnt the meaning of it that night!

[Roland Pulfrew]

And the irrepressible Kinloss spirit

Is that what you call it? I thought it was down to all that Smir***f Ice and revolting red and blue W*D the rugby club kept serving all night!!:E

[Pat Murray]

I had the pleasure and privilege of flying the MR1 as a first tourist in the early days (206 Sqn, 72-75) and have fond memories, not only of the great flying (yes even Tapestry), but also the professionalism and cameraderie of fellow crewmembers.

A big day in the life of the Mighty Hunter, but not the end of an era. Hopefully just a comma in the sentence before the MR4 arrives to continue the fine tradition. "ON, ON"!

As an insightful Son (also a pilot) said to his reminiscing father recently "Dad, these are the good old days".

Wishing you all a peaceful and happy Easter from downunder.

Pat

[Gp Capt L Mandrake]

"Crew check for live mike"

pause then intercom goes quiet

"thanks AEO"

"thanks AEO"

"Thanks AEO"

I'll miss it...........................:{

Best wishes

Buster

[Razor61]

It seems that the MCGA are now providing "Top Cover" to our SAR crews who do their sterling job 250 miles out to sea...

Statement from them on the recent Chivenor based rescue of a 21yr old Sea Cadet 250 miles west of Ireland.

The long distance involved with the evacuation necessitates that the Rescue helicopter from Royal Marines Barracks (RMB) Chivenor has top cover, which will be provided by the Maritime and Coastguard Agencys fixed wing maritime surveillance aircraft. This will enable communications to be maintained and safe monitoring of the evacuation.

So, thinking that our Coast Guard only have their Islanders and the Coventry based Atlantic Air Transport Cessna 404 twin turboprops for contract work.... what are they using for long range fixed wing SAR cover?
Or do they mean they asked the Irish Air Corps for help using their CN235 Patrol aircraft?

[[email protected]]

It was a twin in MCA livery that they use for pollution control and the 2 guys did an excellent job, especially considering it was their first ever SAR job. It was very comforting to have them there, not only to act as comms relay but also to confirm the location of the vessel as we did not have a huge amount of extra fuel to play with (260 Nm out from Castletown Bere and 290nm to Shannon).

Oh, and I've been told not to mention the Nimrod - so I haven't:)

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Crab,

Glad that it all went well. Well done the MCA:ok:

Duncs:ok:

I won't mention the Nimrod either!

[Ray Dahvectac]

It was a twin in MCA livery that they use for pollution control

Didn't know that DC-3 was still flying? :hmm: