thurleigh/bedford

[jifop]

hi there guys! i am doing some research at the moment relating to qinetiq's site at thurleigh, i was wandering if anyone had any photo's of the simulators or the equipment onsite? any help would be greatly appreciated!

thanks

tim

[Genghis the Engineer]

What sort of research? And why?

G

[jifop]

hey genghis! basically we are tennents at the old qinetiq site so I'm trying to get some pictures and info about what happened there in the past!

thanks guys

[John Farley]

Wings Over Thurleigh

ISBN 0-9541594-0-3

Chapter 3.6 is all about simulation and well illustrated

JF

[jifop]

thanks, i have still yet to find an available copy of that book

[green granite]

Bedford library has (or had) a copy of Wings Over Thurleigh.
it's in the local history section, not the main section.

[Genghis the Engineer]

hey genghis! basically we are tennents at the old qinetiq site so I'm trying to get some pictures and info about what happened there in the past!

thanks guys


Is that on the old airfield site, or the old wind tunnel site?

I worked circa 1991 on the tunnel site and can dig out some old notes, although I'd never done much more than visit the airfield once in a while.

My main work there was in the large supersonic wind tunnel, from memory it was 8ftx8ft in section, with a total volume of 450,000ft^3. We could run it up to M=3.5, although not at that large test section which would be reduced down a bit. The power consumption of that tunnel was quite high - in the order of 70MW, but it was an exceptional facility, albeit clearly very expensive to run. To avoid mashing up the instrumentation with the shock wave as we ran up, we'd normally suck air out down to around 5psi, then bring it up to the required Mach number (M, fraction of the speed of sound), then slowly re-introduce pressure until we got the right Reynolds number (a measure of scale used to match wind tunnel results to real aeroplanes) then we'd start moving the model about remotely to get the test results. The tunnel also had a pretty impressive video-Schlieren photography system, which allowed us to watch the shock waves on video monitors in the control room, which usually had about half a dozen of us in there (of which I was by far the most junior!) running the tunnel and model.

I worked there mostly on the testing of what is now called Eurofighter Typhoon, which we had in there up to around M=2.2 in a 1/18th scale model, which itself had cost around £1m to manufacture I was told. We spent many happy days testing it at various speeds and configurations, with holes left by various changes being smoothed off with enormous amounts of dental plaster.

I think that we had two other main wind tunnels on the site - a small transonic tunnel which had a similar power consumption and had originally been looted from the German rocket site at Peenemunde, and a vertical wind tunnel (now being used as some form of indoor skydiving facility I think) which was used for spinning tests. I don't recall his name, but there was a legendary technician there who could reputedly "throw" a free flying model aircraft into that tunnel achieving just about any spin mode you wanted.

I think that the whole thing, up to then proudly RAE, got subsumed into the new DRA organisation (which then became DERA and finally Qinetiq) circa 1992. The last superintendent of RAE Bedford was a chap called L.Owen Hudson who I think is still around but retired somewhere near Boscombe Down; I knew him reasonably well for a time (he was also probably the best Engineer I've ever worked for) and recall him being very distressed at having to give the order to remove the RAE crest from all the notice boards.

I'll dig through my old notes and see what else I can find (and check my facts are right!)

G

[jifop]

Wow Thanks g! We are in the enclave where the simulators were based and later The uav development.

It was originally rae then dra, dera and as you say finally qinetiq but asides from that we know nothing and have no photos which is a shame!

[RugGun]

I worked there until a year or two ago - there weren't many cameras allowed in the QQ days!

A few Bedford projects in the 00's (all on Google):

VAAC Harrier - inc. JSF Control Laws & Autoland - it only flew from Boscombe, all the research was Bedford based
Autonomy - the stuff on the BAC111 surrogate & Tornado - plus bits of TARANIS
ASTRAEA - UAVs into civil airspace
Precision GPS for, amongst others, Williams F1
Mission Training Through Distributed Simulation

For a few years, we also led the world in cunning flight control laws for helicopters, but the famous 2004 cut ('We don't need no Chinooks') meant the Americans went their own way.

I have an old publicity VHS from 2000 - captures what happened back in the day with 'Flight Management & Control dept'. There were also lots of videos of the VAAC stuff. There'd be no harm in asking the QQ press office. Failing that, PM me & I'll give you a couple of contacts - a few of the Bedford team survive in the Farnborough underground.

[John Farley]

jifop

From Wings Over Thurleigh:

First published in the UK by Michael D Dobson
"Trescott", Ravensden, Bedford, MK44 2RP

If you can't find a copy I would contact him.

JF

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've found some notes I made circa 1990 about the wind tunnels, and in particular the 8ft tunnel.

The 8ft tunnel was depressurised to a near-vaccum before accelerating: in the order of 3"Hg for supersonic acceleration, or 5"Hg for subsonic. Because at the time the evacuators (compressors really) were usually about 50% unserviceable it would take us about 30 minutes to get from 30"Hg (atmospheric) down to around 3"Hg (acceleration speed). The tunnel also used to get a lot of moisture in it so the visual cameras used to show their own condensation shock waves, separate to the supersonic shock waves we'd see on the Schlieren cameras. EFA (Typhoon) itself we only tested up to M=1.8, and my notes tell me that it was a 1:15 scale model, and to run it at M=1.8 we needed 68MW of power, and it would take 2-3 seconds to stabilise on each test condition (all run from the large soundproofed control room somewhere in the bowels of the tunnel itself.) We could position the model remotely with an accuracy of about 0.02°.

A lot of the other boffinry going on on that site was in the prediction and analysis of airframe and weapon aerodynamics, and in particular there was a lot of work going on into the interactions between weapons and the aircraft they were being dropped/fired from - the objective being (1) Not to shoot yourself down during launch, and (2) to keep the weapon intact and roughly pointing in the right direction - unsurprisingly I think that Tornado was the main direction of a lot of that research work.

We also had rather a lot of computing power at the time - I was mostly engaged with a Prime 4050 mainframe, although I think that there was a Cray-1 supercomputer around the site somewhere (or linked from our in-house computer systems anyhow) that I never got to see, but various colleagues were definitely using. Rather less power than I have on my laptop now, but it seemed very impressive then!

G

[green granite]

Vandalism I'm afraid. :(

Was it moved or scrapped?

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i11/orangeherald/Capture8foot.jpg

[John Farley]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/johnfarley/WindTunnelsite.jpg

The tunnel G is talking about is inside the ellipse. The ancillary equipment needed to operate it is inside the rectangle. The tunnel at the top is the 13X9 the spinning tunnel is obvious.

At least it all looked like this in the 60s!

JF

[Genghis the Engineer]

It looked much like that about 1990.

I worked in the long white building next to the spinning tunnel - this seemed to be the home of most of the aerodynamicists.

I believe that the 8ft tunnel got scrapped by Qinetiq, but don't know this for certain.

G

[RugGun]

Isn't the 8ft the one now ran by Red Bull F1? All of the tunnels had been decommisioned by 2007, but the spin tunnel & the above are in regular use now. None were actually scrapped - just switched off & not maintained.

[green granite]

None were actually scrapped - just switched off & not maintained.

The 8 foot is no longer there, hence my post of the google earth picture

[RugGun]

my apologies - the others were left standing for someone else to renovate. We sort of stopped hearing about tunnel site when they announced the enclave closure.

We never heard about Fboro or ARA taking any of them & I think even the fboro tunnel is mothballed - so I assume it went to scrap for H&S reasons :(

[Mr Optimistic]

I have a text book written by Ken Staples, given to me by his widow (neighbour) which has some photo's. Will dig it out.

Sorry, just seen the age of this thread: I blame google.

[Genghis the Engineer]

my apologies - the others were left standing for someone else to renovate. We sort of stopped hearing about tunnel site when they announced the enclave closure.

We never heard about Fboro or ARA taking any of them & I think even the fboro tunnel is mothballed - so I assume it went to scrap for H&S reasons :(

ARA seem to be going more and more over to CFD.

Farnborough wind tunnels. (http://www.airsciences.org.uk/windtunnels.html)

G

[chevvron]

One little known aspect of the latter days was the use of the airfield as a C.O.B. or Combined Operating Base for Alconbury based U2Rs/TR1s. There was a semi permanent USAF detachment complete with 'chase' car and spare outriggers, and the aircraft regularly used to practice circuit bashing.

[Mechta]

ARA seem to be going more and more over to CFD.

From what I was told at Filton (albeit six years ago), cruise conditions are do-able on computers, but the 'everything down and dirty' low speed predictions are still more accurate from a wind tunnel.

[G-AZUK]

some interesting info in this thread, http://www.pprune.org/flight-testing/342964-rae-thurleigh.html and it reminded me of the plan to build a 5 mile runway between Thurleigh and Little Staughton shortly after the war, i'd love to know what they were planning to fly off it

[initials]

chevvron, not so sure about a semi-permanent TR1/U2R datachment but they were certainly regular visitors - remember having 3 in the visual circuit one day, one of which was a 2 seater on detachment at Alconbury.
The attraction of Bedford was our runway orientation, being about 90 degrees different to Alconbury, provided a handy diversion option when the cross wind there was too strong. Only remember one or two actual diversions but at least one of those resulted in an operational sortie being flown from Bedford the following day.

[chevvron]

Sorry I worded it badly; no aircraft based at Bedford but a ground handling det. including the high powered car for the final 'talkdown'.

[Mr Optimistic]

This is used by Bodyflight as an entertainment,

Bodyflight UK | The Worlds Largest Indoor Skydiving Centre (http://www.bodyflight.co.uk/)

but guess you knew this already.

[John Farley]

Thanks to a bad fire (contractors debris etc) during the calibration phase towards the end of completion it was never used for aircraft spinning research and we all had to rely on the Lille tunnel.

[DennisTheMenace]

I think the Cray 1S was at Farnborough, I hadn't heard of there being one at Bedford.

The flight simulation complex (in which I worked) comprised I think 5 Gould Concept 32 computers running at around 5 MIPs each.

There were several motion systems, a couple of projection domes ant the cube shaped advanced flight simulator (AFS) in a building 80 feet high, which pilot Les Ellingham decided to use as an aiming point and overfly at below 80 feet in a Lightening. Never actually saw it, but I certainly heard it! Unforgettable.

[DennisTheMenace]

Are you sure it was Mach 3.5, I heard it was Mach 2.5?

There was, still is! a transonic tunnel with a 13 feet working section (height if I recall) using using a fantastic wooden propellor, there was a television documentary on it, it's now used/owned by Redbull Racing team to do aerodynamic testing of racing cars.

I think there was a a smaller tunnel which was considerably higher speed, a figure of mach 5 comes to mind, achieved through a reservoir of compressed air I think?

I spent all my time on the airfield site, never went into the tunnel site.

[DennisTheMenace]

Aircraft on site:
May not be a full list, but it's what I recall seeing.

12 Canberras.
BAC 1-11
1 Tornado
Sea King helicopter
Lynx helicopter
Gazelle (I think it was ours, Farnborough might have had one too)
1 Harrier (with digital computer inside the engine, visible through the vectored thrust nozzles)
HS 125
Lightening - not sure if that was ours or not.

[DennisTheMenace]

Towards the end of the 1980's, the Harrier was based at Bedford, with the digital flight control computer installed.

I can only presume it was flying from there, although I never saw it in flight. We rarely left our office!

[DennisTheMenace]

It was the Lynx that was used for flight control law research, ACT Lynx, ACT for Active Control Technology. I think it was a venture with Westlands of Yeovil.

Farnborough had a Jaguar for flight control law research, which they weighted down the tailplane with lead and some extensions on the leading edges of the wings so as to upset the stability (lead in the tailplane ought to do it). It was a BAe project I think.

The aircraft is still there, on permanent display at one of the entrance gates.

[DennisTheMenace]

Ghengis, the technology demonstrator, the predecessor to the Typhoon, it was called the EAP -Experimental Aircraft Programme - that was tested on the 8 foot tunnel too.

[DennisTheMenace]

Concorde was tested on the 8 foot Mach 2.5 tunnel too. The museum at Farnborough ( Air Sciences Trust) has the aerodynamic models of concorde used in tunnel testing.

I was at the museum a few years ago.

[chevvron]

Aircraft on site:
May not be a full list, but it's what I recall seeing.

12 Canberras.
BAC 1-11
1 Tornado
Sea King helicopter
Lynx helicopter
Gazelle (I think it was ours, Farnborough might have had one too)
1 Harrier (with digital computer inside the engine, visible through the vectored thrust nozzles)
HS 125
Lightening - not sure if that was ours or not.
Farnborough certainly did have a Gazelle, an RAF specification one as opposed to the 656 Sqdn AAC ones which departed in about 1982 and which were quite crude by comparison.
We also had a couple of Sea Kings until one 'broke its back' after a heavy landing from a simulated throttle computer freeze and a couple of Lynx flying trials plus one of the prototypes in storage. I'm sure Bedford had more than one BAC111; Farnborough only had the one.
Many of the Bedford Canberras found their way to storage at Farnborough after Bedford airfield closed. It was a frequent occurence at weekends after DPA flying moved out for someone to come in to fly out a Canberra which we in ATC didn't even know was there, usually to places like Bruntingthorpe for preservation.
Bedford also had an ex BUA VC10 which was rendered un-flyable with a 'bent' fuselage; don't know what happened to that.
On my first visit to Bedford in 1974, soon after being posted to Farnborough, the Hunting 126 jet flap research aircraft was being taken away on the back of a lorry.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I remember that Gazelle, it lived in A shed what I was a Farnborough apprentice circa 1988/89. There was a placard in the cockpit saying "It is prohibited to crash this aircraft ", or words roughly to that effect. I don't actually recall ever seeing it fly, but recall being told that it was mostly flown by the station commander as his private "hack" - that may of course have just been ground crew scuttlebut.

G

[John Farley]

the Hunting 126 jet flap research aircraft was being taken away on the back of a lorry.



On its way to the US for full scale tunnel testing

[chevvron]

I remember that Gazelle, it lived in A shed what I was a Farnborough apprentice circa 1988/89. There was a placard in the cockpit saying "It is prohibited to crash this aircraft ", or words roughly to that effect. I don't actually recall ever seeing it fly, but recall being told that it was mostly flown by the station commander as his private "hack" - that may of course have just been ground crew scuttlebut.

G
It was flown frequently but rarely used for trials work, mostly CT by fixed wing TPs who were cross trained for helicopters, although having said that, various COEFs did use it as transport to other stations for meetings etc and Graham Williams flew it for the BBC to commemorate Cody's first flight from what was then the Officers Mess lawn.
I had one ride in it with the late Pete Rainey, regretfully in the back seat so I omitted to record it in my log book. I have one Gazelle flight recorded in XZ335 on 3 Jul 78 but I think that was an AAC Gazelle of 656 Sqdn.

[chevvron]

On its way to the US for full scale tunnel testing
Thanks John, I always wondered where it went. Wonder where it is now?

[safetypee]

RAE Bedford operated a range of aircraft, some on permanent inventory others as visitors for trials involving other RAE departments or civilian developments.
Circa 75-80, the only BAC 1-11 was the 'BLEU' aircraft XX105 (BLEU became Flight Systems 2, AERO flight FS1 circa 1974, then amalgamated to become Flight Systems Squadron ~ 76).
However, a BAC owned 1-11 may have visited during the BAC reduced stability, Smiths fly-by-light, and RAE Versatile Autopilot trials.

There were many visiting helicopters for comparative agility tests, the agility course was on the airfield and likened to horse jumping/eventing. A Scout or Gazelle was probably used during the helicopter combat flights; fast jet pilots guested as test engineers (extreme manoeuvrfes) and to compare tactics.

The dedicated simulator research facility (FS1?), was SW of the hangers on the airfield site; this involved research into simulation, per se, and was also used for project evaluation. IIRC it had a multi seat moving base simulator, which may have been reconfigurable as a single seat aircraft. I also recall a VSTOL facility, Harrier and helicopter, but this might have been the same system as above.
There was a separate fixed base simulation with a moving belt visual for fighter agility / weapons aiming.
FS 2 had a simple fixed base simulation for night low-vis evaluation; this was extensively used for airfield lighting, flight director, and crew procedures research. Some of this was in conjunction with the Hatfield design sim (DH/Smiths LED para visual display), and the Weybridge Advanced Flight Deck.

A visit to the wind tunnel model shop was always a must (unfortunately often in conjunction with a visit to the site Boss *). As well a viewing 'what's new models', the very skilled modellers could repair one's most valued presentation solid aircraft models and create all sorts of presentation gift mountings.

* the ultra low level (50ft) high-speed flight test course started adjacent to the head-mans office, which being on the second floor might have looked down on the passing aircraft. The straight line track ended next to the airfield ATC tower.

[chevvron]

A 1-11 - 500 was delivered shortly before Bedford closed. I remember it well because OC Flying Bedford, then 'Tag' Taggart, brought it into Farnborough one day and for what reason I do not know, COEF objected to this and told them not to get off the aircraft and go back to Bedford.
Course we in ATC got the blame as usual for accepting it in the first place!

[Innominate]

Chevvron

The Hunting 126 is at Cosford Detail page | Research | Collections | RAF Museum (http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/collections/hunting-h126/)

[chevvron]

some interesting info in this thread, http://www.pprune.org/flight-testing/342964-rae-thurleigh.html and it reminded me of the plan to build a 5 mile runway between Thurleigh and Little Staughton shortly after the war, i'd love to know what they were planning to fly off it
There was also a plan to build another 'long' runway between Thurleigh and Twinwoods. A bridge over a public road south of Thurleigh (still there) was built to accomodate this.

[chevvron]

Ghengis, the technology demonstrator, the predecessor to the Typhoon, it was called the EAP -Experimental Aircraft Programme - that was tested on the 8 foot tunnel too.

When Warton CTP Chris Yeo brought the EAP to the Farnborough airshow, he confided in us there was a 'problem'.
Apparently, it was so easy to fly that after takeoff for his display, he simply set the throttle and didn't touch it again until on final however, by this time he would be so relaxed that he might forget to select gear down, (I think he'd done so once when practicing at Warton) so could we (ATC) remind him every time to save embarassment!!

[Dunregulatin]

The ultra long runway was intended for the Brabazon and any future long range piston engined aircraft. It was believed that the take off performance would always be poor and a long runway required.
For the same reason they demolished the pub at the end of Filton runway so they could extend it.

The link between Thurleigh and Twinwoods was to be a taxiway. The tale always told was that it was to facilitate getting full size aircraft to the wind tunnels.Then the technology overtook the idea.
The whole thing was part of an idea to build a National Aeronautics Establishment but Farnboro and other politics scuppered that idea. Bloody Cody's tree was more important.

Ah Bedford ATC "the cowboy outfit I'd always wanted for Christmas"

[chevvron]

Wow Thanks g! We are in the enclave where the simulators were based and later The uav development.

It was originally rae then dra, dera and as you say finally qinetiq but asides from that we know nothing and have no photos which is a shame!
Don't forget it was RAE twice; firstly 'Royal Aircraft Establishment' then from about the mid '80s, 'Royal Aerospace Establishment.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Indeed - I turned up at RAE Farnborough in 1988 to start my working life. Having been offered a job at the "Royal Aircraft Establishment", 18 year old me was somewhat concerned at the sign saying "Royal Aerospace Establishment", and I wondered if I'd arrived at the wrong place.

Which means that whilst I certainly worked at RAE, technically I never actually worked at the Royal Aircraft Establishment.

[RogerOver&Out]

There is a group of former 'boffins' from RAE called the Bedford Airfield Historic Group - their secretary is a former colleague - Reg Harlow [email protected]. Barry Tomlinson (Mr Simulation) still lives in Bedford and I imagine he would be a good source Barry Tomlinson <[email protected]>