PM to order £1.5bn defence cuts

[ORAC]

So, what the implications, if any, of the early Nimrod rundown?

FT: PM to order £1.5bn defence cuts (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a6407b12-e84f-11de-8a02-00144feab49a.html)

Gordon Brown is to approve about £1.5bn of cuts to "low priority" defence projects over the next three years as part of a reform package that will shift resources to Afghanistan and ease the crippling defence budget shortfall.

Final details are still under negotiation but the measures will include cuts to the existing Harrier and Tornado fighter jet fleet, an early drawdown of Nimrod reconnaissance aircraft and thousands of staff cuts across the armed forces and Whitehall.

The sacrifices will be offset by moves to boost spending on critical frontline equipment for the Afghan campaign. The prime minister, who visited troops in Afghanistan at the weekend, will fast track an order for at least 20 Chinook heavy-lift helicopters and purchase new surveillance systems to counter roadside bombs, additional fighting vehicles, and one more C-17 transport aircraft. Defence insiders insisted the additional kit would have been unaffordable without cuts elsewhere.

The Royal Air Force is expected to bear the brunt of what one industry executive described as a "gruesome" budget planning round for 2010 but the Royal Navy will also take a survey ship and mine hunter out of service early.....

The Ministry of Defence is expected to be forced to make much bigger sacrifices after the strategic defence review, including significant reductions in the order for Joint Strike Fighter jets. Although the exact numbers are yet to be decided, the cuts to the Tornado and Harrier fleet and the early withdrawal of the ageing Nimrod are bound to threaten the future of several large air bases.

The services and MoD are also pressing to whittle down the numbers of staff in low-priority areas, which will amount to job losses for thousands of civilian and uniformed personnel.

The order for the Boeing-made Chinooks, worth up to £1bn in additional MoD spending, will be spread over 10 years, but some new helicopters could be available for Afghanistan within a year or two. Funding for the helicopters will be partly taken from the cancellation of the Future Medium Helicopter programme, which was supposed to replace the UK's ageing Sea King and Puma fleets.

The purchase of the additional C17 from Boeing is partly in response to growing demand for airlift capability for Afghanistan. However, defence insiders insisted it did not signal that Britain would scale back its order of the Airbus A400M transport aircraft, which made its maiden flight last week.

[TheSmiter]

Thanks for the heads up ORAC, although the outcome of PR10 has been widely anticipated, the timing of the announcement is just the nicest Christmas present from this so-called Govt.

Absolutely nothing they do surprises me anymore. I particularly like one quote in the full article:


"This is not about spending cuts" said one Whitehall figure "The defence budget will rise in line with inflation. It is about getting an overspent programme into shape and aligned with our strategic priorities for defence."


If I've learnt one thing in my career it's that when someone says "This is not about spending cuts" , that's absolutely what it's about.

And as for 'Strategic priorities', perhaps somebody more generous than I would like to lend a copy of the OED to somebody in Whitehall. I don't believe anyone in this Govt, from the top down, has the faintest idea what the word strategy means..............

It could of course be that the overall plan is to dismantle the Armed Forces, in which case they're doing a fantastic job!

[Scotteo]

..."Defence officials say savings were identified on the basis there would be no impact on the frontline and that no decisions should pre-empt the strategic defence review next year."

But what about the UK's defence? Even if cost cuttings do not affect front-line operations (which I thoroughly doubt) then surely it will effect the way in which Britain protects it's skies?

Although our terror level has been downgraded from "severe" to "substantial" on the Sesame Street easy learn terror chart;

"The day you crash the family car is the day the insurance runs out"

(A quote I've read, probably from pprune.org on the same issue, but one that rings true and has stuck with me since)

May aswell keep our pants firmly round our ankles, pass out free boots and directions to our opposers, and clench real hard.

[TheSmiter]

ORAC asked


So, what the implications, if any, of the early Nimrod rundown?



Possibly a lot of well-kept gardens in Moray and increased profits for the Solicitors Property Centre (other estate agents are available)

Just a wild guess.:\

[Finnpog]

Whatever is the monocular one doing, wasting money on these totally unnecessary helicopters.

He should be birched for financial incompetence in pushing this purchase.

After all, has he not insisted in the face of strong challenge for the last n months that the military have more than sufficient numbers of whirlybirds?

He wasn't lying then, was he?

[Jimmy Macintosh]

It won't be long before the Tamil Tigers will be able to attack the UK :( (granted it'll need a coouple of friendly nations in which it could do some stop overs)

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42734000/gif/_42734121_zlin_aircraft416.gif

[tucumseh]

The order for the Boeing-made Chinooks, worth up to £1bn in additional MoD spending, will be spread over 10 years, but some new helicopters could be available for Afghanistan within a year or two.


The "new" (10 years old but virginal) Chinook Mk3s?


within a year or two

Someone should tell him to press "zoom" on the Gantt chart or is this the new acquistion terminology for "We haven't a clue"?

[Biggus]

Given that there are only two working days of the parliamentary year left, if anything is to be announced formally in the House, as opposed to being leaked, or "you-tubed", or stated on a Sunday morning couch session with Andrew Marr, then we won't have long to wait before all this speculation becomes a certainty!

[dinoorin]

presumably this £1.5Bn defence cut is to pay for this;
UK pledges climate aid for developing countries | Number10.gov.uk (http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page21711)

Seems we still have enough money to give away - just not to our own guys and girls:ugh:

[mtoroshanga]

Did I hear correctly or did he say that part of the budget applied to combat road side improvised explosives is to go towards their composition etc. What awaste of money is that, another office full of mates who can milk it for everything they can. Talk to the South Africans, they will tell you all you need to know and get rid of the dross this useless 'governmant' lumbers us with!!

[BackfromIraq]

The same man who promised to donate £1.5 billion to a fund to combat the effects of an arguable disaster caused by arguable climate change.

France and Germany have each contributed only £1.2 billion although they are in far better shape than this poor, bankrupt country with its corrupt, self-serving politicians.

How much are the other 24 EU countries going to contribute? Very little I suspect.

Charity begins at home: I don't see homeless people playing the big man in the street: they're asking for money not giving it away. We need to be strong, not consistently weakened by people who are only trying to buy votes.

[Hoots]

Nice of someone to leak the early retirement of the Nimrod rumour when Kinloss is on AOC's standown, perfect timing. Doesn't cause the workers or their families any concern whatsoever.

So how was this leaked before any official statement? Was it deliberate, is it just more government spin in action as they hit the headlines with the extra £150m for counter IED's (which I have no issue with, as some state why not sooner). Be good of the PM to pay a visit to the North to explain his contempt for Defence overall.

[L J R]

Will the majority of the Forres community now move to the leafy suburbs of Las Vegas? Was that one of those 'Drones' I've heard about that the PM did an interview in front of?

[TheSmiter]

Charity £1.5 Bn

Defence -£1.5Bn


Bottom Line £0.0

Seemples

PS Please Mr Brown, can I be Chancellor next?

[Caspian237]

For gods sake we already have more troops in Afghanistan than the next two contributors combined (albeit a tiny fraction compared to the US forces, but then it's their bloody war.)

We shouldn't be spending billions of pounds buying new equipment for more troops, we should be drawing down troop numbers to a level that we can afford. If that means other nations taking up some of the slack, then so be it!

We need our armed forces to be geared towards the UK's interests, not to be tailored to what the Americans will find the most useful.

[mick2088]

Not a cut as such with announcements expected shortly, but they have just announced that they are buying 22 new Chinooks. First ten to be delivered in 2012-2013. Sea King LEP abandoned.

[Bismark]

How many more cuts to the front line jet fleet are we going to have to endure to maintain things like the RAFAT and QCS? It is a disgrace.

[Climebear]

Bismark

By QCS I assume you are referring to 63 Sqn RAF Regt who have just returned from Op HERRICK.

QCS (63 Sqn RAF Regt) deploy on Ops like every other Regt Field Sqn. Like every other RAF Regt Sqn the harmony targets appear to be a distant aspiration. The only difference is that QCS do all the Smart Blue stuff in between dets. (Cermonial duties are covered by another RAF Regt Field Sqn (also on the Op cycle) when QCS are deployed).

So good call then - let's cut a unit that regularly deploys on Ops :ugh:

[Bismark]

Climbear,

Or start calling them 63 Sqn RAF regt and the issue of criticism will not arise.

[Climebear]

Ah so you based your recommendation on a name rather than any knowledge of operational effect. Are you in the Government?

[WildRover]

Giving money away to the undeveloped CO2 emitters at a time when for the same money we close important airbases STINKS.

Don't we have people in Whitehall who can stand upto this charade of a government.

[Rather be Gardening]

"Bob Ainsworth is set to announce the closure of an RAF base - understood to be RAF Cottesmore in Rutland - and the loss of thousands of jobs. The first of the new helicopters are expected to be ready in 2012. Ex-Defence Secretary Malcolm Rifkind said it was dangerous to cut core budgets to fund the Afghan conflict. The Harriers based at RAF Cottesmore will move to RAF Wittering before being phased out of service altogether, earlier than planned. The Tornado force based at RAF Lossiemouth and RAF Marham in Norfolk will also lose one squadron and it is thought parts of RAF Kinloss, in Moray, could be mothballed.

Mr Ainsworth's announcement comes after months of criticism over the number of helicopters in operation in Helmand, in Afghanistan. The first 10 new Chinooks, made by Boeing, will start to roll off the production line in 2012. In total, the Chinook fleet will increase in size from 48 to 70. Mr Ainsworth said: "Helicopter capability has already doubled in the last three years and this future strategy builds on this, ensuring that our armed forces have the very best resources at their disposal." Commander Joint Helicopter Command, Rear Admiral Tony Johnstone-Burt, said Chinooks had proved "invaluable" on operations, saying: "This new strategy will dramatically increase our military capability on the battlefield for many years to come."

The RAF will fly the Chinooks in Afghanistan alongside Merlin helicopters which arrived in the country last month. Their arrival will mean the ageing Sea Kings, used by the RAF and Royal Navy, can be retired early. An extra C17 transport plane could also be on the cards."

:uhoh::rolleyes:

BBC News - Job cut fears as new Chinooks ordered for Afghanistan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8413135.stm)

[WASALOADIE]

They'll probably roll off the production line in time to be sent back for cockpit upgrade.

[NutLoose]

So do you think these ones will be delivered to a secret airbase near Salisbury to mature in a hanger like a fine wine over the next few years.... now they have had a clearout of the last lot....

[lightningmate]

First big issue, exactly what cockpit configuration will be specified for any new build Wokkas. Hardly likely Boeing will have the kit or will to match the current UK configuration. How affordable, in our current situation, is the proposed cockpit upgrade for the current in-service airframes that could, potentially, be matched with new build items?

Not for the first time, the procurers will shortly see the cans of worms springing open.

lm

[On_Loan]

So does this mean all the Merlins will be going to the FAA, much like an unwanted xmas present? And it is a good job we have all these spare Chinook crews lying around just waiting for an airframe..... :hmm:

[mick2088]

The rather vague MoD press release states "The new strategy will see the ageing Sea Kings, which the Royal Navy and RAF currently use, being taken out of service early. The Navy’s future helicopter requirements will be met by a combination of the Merlin fleet and new Wildcat. The Army will also operate Wildcat alongside the hugely successful Apache. It will mean that following the retirement of Puma from 2022, the UK’s Armed Forces will operate four core helicopter fleets of Chinook, Apache, Wildcat and Merlin – each of around 65-75 aircraft."

I'd assume by the "The Navy’s future helicopter requirements will be met by a combination of the Merlin fleet and new Wildcat." that they mean some RAF Merlins will be transferred to replace the Sea King, surely not just a combination of ASW Merlins and Wildcats???

[Climebear]

BFBS reporting that all RAF Merlins will be transfered to RN with RAF crews retrained onto Chinooks.

[Widger]

......and you heard it all on Pprune first....:{:{:{:{

[NURSE]

Davis was in front of the defence comittee and he hinted at the merlins being Maritimised but nothing definite. The whole of the pinger fleet won't be upgraded!

[cornish-stormrider]

Gents this rolling goat **** that some laughably call the government have shafted us all, it is only now that the chickens are flying home to roost....


Expect pain.

My advice to you all is bail at the first chance you get because this is going to be bloody messy

[Gnd]

Is there enough room for all the Merlins in Culdrose?????????

[Phil_R]

My information may be out of date, but I've long been unable to shake the impression that a large degree of the reason for defence overspend in the UK is because the MoD's procurement procedures are intended to be the comic relief for the otherwise grim business of war. This is all secondhand information and I post it here knowing I may be shot down horribly.

I have a close relative who worked for a major MoD contractor during the 80s and 90s, and his friends who are still in the business report that contractors still profiteer to the point of insanity, deliver late, and in turn are messed about by the MoD in terms of constantly changing specifications and nonsensical requirements.

Obviously there's two sides to every coin but it's hard to conclude that something like Typhoon would not have been available faster for less money to a better spec if most of the 1990s hadn't been spent arguing with "partner nations" over how the thing was supposed to work. Considering it's based on a British fuselage design using British engines you'd be forgiven for wondering why we didn't just build the damn things and if anyone else had wanted them, we could have sold them, and there'd have been far less bitching about workshare. I could give other examples of silliness but at this scale it costs billions and that's not funny.

In short I suspect that the MoD could save 1.5bn just by not being grotesquely silly in the way they buy things.

[onevan]

Why would there be any Green Merlins at Culdrose, apart from those going through AMG, when they should all be in the Stan?

[Hugh Spencer]

I know that a lot of money is required to maintain the stability of our country but priorities should be -
Defence of the country
Health of all citizens
Good education for all
I am saying this because I was a 15 year old at the start of WW2 so I can have an opinion on what our people need.

[Gnd]

I don't know but with single type basing being the flavour of the moment - who knows?

[VuctoredThrest]

Bit selfish, but I am hoping/expecting the new bulid Chinook cockpits will be as per forthcoming Mk4 Chinooks , with a few mods....

[The Old Fat One]

Hugh...

I know that a lot of money is required to maintain the stability of our country but priorities should be -
Defence of the country
Health of all citizens
Good education for all

I'd vote for you :ok:

[tucumseh]

Phil R

In short I suspect that the MoD could save 1.5bn just by not being grotesquely silly in the way they buy things.


This isn't speculation, but a simple statement of fact!!

Unfortunately, as I've said here many times, those who dare voice this opinion in MoD or, God forbid, actually prove it, are treated as lepers.

[mick2088]

"Bob says", if I heard all of it right:

- No money to be cut from 2010/11 budget
- Reform of defence acquisition planned
- £900 m of enhancements: improved dismounted infantry equipment to be expanded, more Bowman, £80 m for special forces communications, more money for ISTAR, doubling Reaper availability, more money for C-IED
- Extra C-17 to be ordered
- 22 Chinooks - first ten in 2012/2013
- Treasury to pay £280 m for more new vehicles for deployment in Afghanistan, C-IED equipment
- Typhoon phase 2 enhancement to be pursued
- Harrier fleet to be reduced by one sqn. Cottesmore to close.
- Plan to further reduce Tornado/Harrier fleet to be announced in Strategic Defence Review
- Nimrod MR2 to be withdrawn 12 months early; MRA4 introduction into service to be slowed
- plans to temporary reduce some Army training
- 1 survey vessel and one mine hunter to be withdrawn from RN service
- unprotected utility vehicle competition (OUVS?) to be delayed, didn't hear that bit.

[KPax]

When asked who would provide Maritime cover' to submarines he replied the CAS was consulted and that there were other platforms, ie Merlin and C130. Where are we getting the Hercs from and can they really provide this kind of cover. Unbelievable, 36 years in and I am embarrassed.

[scarecrow450]

Well Wittering will have fun getting aircraft airbourne, Cottesmore ATC does their APP/DEP, only got talkdown at Wittering, more money to be wasted moving the kit(Watchman, SSR,TACAN) down the road !

:mad::mad::mad:

[getsometimein]

Hercs have always had a Longe Range Maritine SAR capability and as such can be put on standby in the same way the Nimrod forces are to cover this commitment.

Although i'll not be going sailing more than a 1hr helicopter journey away from the uk....

[Wrathmonk]

So, Cottesmore closes and everything moves to Wittering.

Does that mean the Harrier will disband in 2012. If not Mr Dennis (and his solicitors) may be knocking on the MODs door (unless this has all been resolved ....). Click here (http://julian-wyatt.com/dennis_v_mod.htm) and here (http://www.hacan.org.uk/news/press_releases.php?id=47). The award was made on the basis that flying out of Wittering will cease in 2012.

money to be wasted moving the kit(Watchman, SSR,TACAN) down the road

Won't they be able to operate the consols remotely from Wittering and leave the transmitters in place?

[Ken Scott]

In view of recent press articles on the exploitation of the 60 bn barrels of oil around the Falkland Isles, shouldn't we be ensuring that there's adequate forces to protect it, rather than allowing any neighbouring countries to enrich themselves if they decided to mount another hostile takeover bid?

[Misformonkey]

Many MP's have now asked for the chinook to be made uner license from AW, are they mad, how much did AW cream off the Apache deal and after the 12 months flight testing AW would take you would still be no closer. I should be supporting a UK industry but sometimes i struggle. Not a lot has been mentioned of the fact that with new Chinooks the future medium lift capability will be carried out by already bought Merlins and not the new ones AW thought it would be building. Take into account the cancelled 101 order from the US??

[andyy]

From the MoD website:

The Navy's older Lynx and Merlin Mk1 helicopters will be retired sooner than planned prior to the transition to the more capable Wildcat and Merlin Mk2 as part of the new helicopter strategy.

Can someone enlighten me on the Merlin Mk 2 please - first I've heard of it.

[scarecrow450]

No they need the consols(well pc screens) at Wittering, don't think they could build an industrial estate around the twr ? Can't have buildings too near the radar heads. They'll only sue the mod !!

[vecvechookattack]

Can someone enlighten me on the Merlin Mk 2 please - first I've heard of it.


Merlin CSP......


Navy Matters | Merlin HM.1 (http://navy-matters.beedall.com/merlin.htm)

[grousehunter]

What about our SAR helo mates? Given that MR2 will be no more from 2010 how do you feel about having to rely on the herc for top cover and co-ord on long range SAR jobs? I really really think that this has not been thought through at all. As for Merlin covering UK wide ASW..........:ugh:

[andyy]

Thanks for that, but the Merlin CSP appears to be an upgrade of existing Mk1s - doesn't quite square with the announcement that Merlin Mk1 is going to be retired early as Merlin Mk2 (and Wildcat) is more capable.

[Blighter Pilot]

What about our SAR helo mates? Given that MR2 will be no more from 2010 how do you feel about having to rely on the herc for top cover and co-ord on long range SAR jobs? I really really think that this has not been thought through at all. As for Merlin covering UK wide ASW..........:ugh:


Which C130 would that be then?

C130K OSD 2012 and reducing.

C130J no external tanks, reduced endurance and heavily tasked in Afghanistan!

No fixed wing SAR cover and no ASW:mad:

Great for an island nation.. keep any eye on the South American elections and the rumour of a massing Argentine Naval Fleet for a show of force down south!!!

[tucumseh]

When asked who would provide Maritime cover' to submarines he replied the CAS was consulted and that there were other platforms, ie Merlin and C130. Where are we getting the Hercs from and can they really provide this kind of cover. Unbelievable, 36 years in and I am embarrassed.

Never fear. For many years I had a letter on my wall from a Gp Capt supplier (DDSM 11 I think) assuring me that Hercules did indeed have an Active Dipping Sonar, so I was quite wrong to complain he was wasting money buying ADS spares for his fleet. Seems he was right all along, but I fear the winches and cables may be a bit rusty after so little use. As for the Submersible Units, I'm told they are streamlined these days because C130 uses too much fuel in the hover.:ok:

[Gnd]

Well at least the early lack of grey Lynx and Seakings will make room for the Wildcat at VL.

[vecvechookattack]

Do you think that is why the LHF offered up the Grey Lynx...????

[Gnd]

possibly, seems sencible - will they bring it (wildcat HMA) forward is a better question and how will that ease the sim problems??

[time to get out]

A few years ago I got a single bolt from stores, at £165 ea I felt this was a tadd steep. I submitted a 'price challenge' form and overnight the cost of the item was ammended to £5.

WHY? I hear you ask. Well I will tell you, we have officers with no training in business signing our contracts. The civilian companies inflate the price of all items bought by the military for 2 years in order to pay for design / testing costs.

Why 2 years? It is no coincidence! They know that officers are posted on average every 2 years so they set a review date after the person who contracted the item is posted knowing that the next young chappie will want to start a fresh new project to look good on his/her OJAR, rather than reviewing all the boring old contracts that we are paying through the nose for!

The Answer......

1. Get rid of the officers who currently seek contracts with our civilian counterparts,

2. Put educated business people in their place as a primary role in order to keep continuity.

3. Review all contracts to date and make sure we are paying the actual cost of the item rather than the 2 year inflated price.

4. Stop going for the big publicity buy closing one of our valued RAF bases, cutting numbers etc. and take stock of your own ineptitude and serious business failings !

[mick2088]

... the Merlin CSP appears to be an upgrade of existing Mk1s - doesn't quite square with the announcement that Merlin Mk1 is going to be retired early as Merlin Mk2 (and Wildcat) is more capable.

30 out of 38 HM1s are being upgraded to Mk2 through CSP, not retired or replaced - MoD PR mistake.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

how do you feel about having to rely on the herc for top cover and co-ord on long range SAR jobs?


Very unhappy - your point is spot on, as Nimrods have proved vital on numerous SAROps. But I don't think you will hear many SARPeeps complaining on here, as other people are shafted far more by today's news than us. The inconvenience and risk which SAR crews will face in a Top-Cover-free future (no offence Herc chums - you just seem to be pretty busy already doing AT tasks to take on 24-hr SAR cover, and without major mods a Herc is no match for a Nimrod in the SAR role) pale into insignificance beside the inconvenience and risks now faced by submarine crews. Or Nimrod crews.

[Widger]

I am surprised that it has taken this long to get to this stage and I doubt it will be ending here. For those who have not read Bernard Gray's report, I recommend it. It sets out quite clearly where most of the blame lies.

http://www.aof.mod.uk/aofcontent/downloads/gray/gray_report.pdf

[vecvechookattack]

I am surprised that it has taken this long to get to this stage and I doubt it will be ending here. For those who have not read Bernard Gray's report, I recommend it. It sets out quite clearly where most of the blame lies.


The Blame for what?

[Widger]

Vec,

The blame for the fact that the Defence Acquisition programme is unaffordable.
One slight silver lining, I think, and that is that the chiefs seem to be finally working together to minimise the impact across Defence rather than fighting over ever diminishing scraps.