easyJet/CTC Cadet Pilot Slavery Contract

[Alexander de Meerkat]

In the last few days I have become aware of an outrageous deal between easyJet and CTC. This contract is akin to slavery and has been offered within the last week to CTC cadets who have finished their ATPLs and are swimming in the hold pool awaiting a type-rating. They have had less than a week's notice and had to accept on the spot for a start date today (14/12/2009). I have had to wait to have a number of independent verifications before publishing, but these are the bare bones:


easyJet will no longer pay for type-ratings for their cadets. Instead, they require any CTC cadet who wishes to work for them to sign a 3-year contract. The contract involves the candidate paying for his own Airbus type rating at a cost of £28k. The contract only basically pays the cadet if he flies, and there is no guarantee whatsoever of minimum hours. They are saying a cadet can expect to fly 650 hours but there is no guarantee that will be the case. Therefore, for example, if in year 3 they do not need him to fly then he will just not be rostered and will not receive a penny in pay. At the end of the contract there is no guarantee whatsoever of future employment. Indeed, it would be reasonable to assume that there is a virtual guarantee of being kicked out on the street with nothing to make room for the next lucky candidates. Of the £28k type rating cost, £4k must be paid up front. The other £24k is borrowed from easyJet/CTC and paid back over 3 years. If the cadet leaves before 3 years, the £28k must be paid back in full. During type-rating training, pay is £500 per month. Thereafter the pay is £1200 per month with no flight pay up to the 6 month mark. After that you get paid £48 an hour (presumably block hours) with £20 an hour deducted to go towards TR cost (ie £28/hour clear). I believe, but cannot verify, that once the outstanding £24k is paid you stop paying for the type rating rather than continue paying anyway for 3 years, but there is a question even about that. On 650 hours it will take about 2 years to pay off the type rating. Adding these figures up mean that the salary for a CTC cadet flying 650 hours per year will be as follows:

Year 1: Approx £15k

Year 2: Approx £18,200

Year 3: Approx £31,200 (assuming you have paid off your TR costs and that they keep you flying)

Also, the salary does not cover loan repayments. Most CTC cadets have loans of around £60k to cover training and I am told payments are around £1000 a month. That means that a cadet literally cannot afford the loan payments in the first year yet alone pay for food, accommodation or a pair of socks to wear.

However you dress this up, this is a grotesque abuse of young pilots and constitutes the worst terms and conditions that I am personally aware of in the history of commercial jet aviation in the UK.

[pug]

As a long-term wannabe myself, this makes me sick... I have always heeded advice on here and very rarely post on such subjects as i prefer to let the pro's do the talking (WWW et al) but this is just beyond belief...

Looking on other forums, wannabe cadets much younger than me believe that if you get on CTC Wings you've 'got it made', no one can tell them any other as you will 'shatter their dreams'. I wonder how long before such practice becomes illegal?

Coincidently, a guy i have known since school came up to me the other day, bragging about being offered a place at CTC with a view to being taken on by Emerites?! Wasnt aware CTC provided lambs for them to slaughter (though pretty sure they are a good airline), worst thing is this guy, far as i know, has no interest in flying other than the status he believes he will get... Is this what the intergrated schools are churning out these days? :ugh:

I think i will stick to my guns, listen to my very good PPL instructor and do all of my flying in the UK as and when i can afford it, thats if i decide to go into this business and not just fly for fun on a PPL.

[NOT ORANGE]

Maybe people will realise that flying as a profession is finished.Getting out of bed at 4a.m. to fly 4 sectors with no food,interline,pension,night stops,flying a 737 or 319 for the rest of your days,living the dream!Do yourselves a big favour go work in Tesco ,at least you will have some dignity left.Don't line the pockets of modern day mill owners like Stavros and the Irish git!

[v6g]

Seriously?

Wow.

You've got to be pretty thick to accept something like that. There is simply no logical reason for a rational person to sign a contract like that.

I mean, being desparate for a job doesn't even come into it, at that kind of money, even in a deep recession. You have to remember that these are people who committed to their training after Northern Rock went bust.

I don't actually see what's wrong with stuff like this. Paying punters get cheap and mostly fairly safe flights for their holidays. Dreamboats who think they'll look cool in a pilots uniform get to think they look cool in a pilots uniform and airline owners get to make profit.

There are far better ways of earning a living for anyone with a typical pilots intellect.

I feel sorry for the old guys though - those who are too old to change careers. But then no career is for life these days.

[oates76]

Everyone who has been offered this contract signed up to this scheme long before northern rock went bust, and when times were good, loans were unsecured, and this was the best ticket in town. Do you think people would have signed up for this program knowing this would be the outcome?!? Well, the sad thing is they would and they are, but those of us in the pool did not, and are pretty sick at the state of things compared to where they were when we started and what we signed up for.

You say there is no rational reason to accept this contract, but the only rational reason I can think is that you just spend two and a half years of your life working your butt off for this opportunity, and during that time, T's and C's have eroded to this level. And this is now your ONLY choice! There are no other jobs, no instructor positions, no entry level turbo prop jobs... this is it. And the jobs we left to make this happen have also suffered the effects of the economy and are no longer there for us to go back to... so your choice is simple, go bankrupt at tesco or go bankrupt flying the plane you spent years working towards and a life time dreaming about.

Having said that, I do not think I would sign up for this. Not good at all:bored:

[Chuffer Chadley]

Is this scheme still running?

I mean in the same or similar manner to how it was a couple of years ago? It seemed to depend heavily on generous terms from a bank, which in turn must have depended on reliable payments coming back from the qualified CTC guys. I imagine that that has become a problem.

And does anyone want to sign up for this amount of debt/risk in the current climate?

Not a critique of CTC, just interested.

CC

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Loans now have to be on a secured basis. Your or your parents house etc, via BBVA bank I believe. Or one could be of independent means...

CTC run regular, well attended, recruitment events and have never stopped sending new cadet pilots out to New Zealand. Some of those swimming in the resultant pool at the end are growing quite weary. Understandably.


WWW

[Wingswinger]

There is gross over-supply of young hopefuls therefore airlines and training organisations are determinedmined to make them pay for their own training and TR whilst giving no guarantees. The lesson is clear. The party is over, for now at least. Don't become a commercial pilot. Do (almost) anything else.

[stormin norman]

At least their balpa subs will be cheap.

[FIBonacci]

Cheers Norman, not that they could do anything as we wont be employed by anyone. We are literally an appliance to them, we have a use and when a better, cheaper to run one comes along we will be discarded or sold on to someone with a need that can't afford the 'training relationship'.

[one post only!]

Hmmmm choice choices:

1) Accept the deal, go bankrupt on day one of type rating and then your training has only cost you £28K instead of £70k. Nice but you then contribute to the massive demise of T&C's throughout the entire aviation industry as the race to the bottom goes nuclear.

2) Don't accept the deal. Your mate does and you go bankrupt anyway and you still don't have a flying job (good luck finding one at the moment!). Although you can then start again and join a profession where there is a chance of a real career!

If this comes into pratice we are all screwed. This will affect everyone starting from the bottom up. It will have an impact whoever you work for and whatever you fly.

We....need.....to.....stop.....this. The guys this affects cannot fight their corner. We need to do it for them. We just cannot afford to sit idly by and let this happen.

[TRon]

It seems BALPA aren't interested in it. These guys/girls are the future of the industry and they are being left out to dry by both BALPA, CTC and easyJet.

Shame on BALPA if they let this continue. I would like to see them stand up for this.

It makes me so so angry I work for an airline that can treat it's 'future' like this at the outset. This will be the precedence for other airlines. You watch.

easyJet send current pilots safety missives saying 'don't come to work with things on your mind', then recruit a load of new F/O's who can barely afford to make ends meat on a draconian contract which benefits 2 people. Them and CTC. CTC will no doubt do the type rating for which they are not paying anywhere near 28K. That was what CTC used to bill easyJet for each cadet at the end of the 6 month period on contract offer.

Now it seems easyJet have turned around and said they aren't paying that, so guess what, CTC have passed that onto the 'customer'. Where else in the world can you spend that much money and be treated like such a child. Why don't CTC charge cost or take a hit on the profits?

Safety is easyJet's number 1 priority, when it doesn't cost too much.

One day they will learn the very hard way if they continue on this cost cutting drive and there will be a media storm over this and everything else. You watch...

[kriskross]

But we do!!

[RC203]

"During type-rating training, pay is £500 per month. Thereafter the pay is £1200 per month with no flight pay up to the 6 month mark. After that you get paid £48 an hour (presumably block hours) with £20 an hour deducted to go towards TR cost (ie £28/hour clear). I believe, but cannot verify, that once the outstanding £24k is paid you stop paying for the type rating rather than continue paying anyway for 3 years, but there is a question even about that. On 650 hours it will take about 2 years to pay off the type rating. Adding these figures up mean that the salary for a CTC cadet flying 650 hours per year will be as follows: Year 1: Approx £15k Year 2: Approx £18,200 Year 3: Approx £31,200 (assuming you have paid off your TR costs and that they keep you flying)"

Does anyone know if you get sector pay on top of these figures, once you're out of the 6 months line experience? That could add another £5k a year which makes it look a little less stark...

[cheesycol]

There are no other jobs, no instructor positions, no entry level turbo prop jobs...

Oh dear, oh dear. Flybe, Eastern, Highland etc have all been recruiting over the last 18-24 months. Flybe recently took on another 16 guys ex-Jerez. They won't pay for their rating and I think may have been part-sponsored. They'll certainly be paid more than the above scheme, with a proper contract, a pension, proper staff travel and the prospect of TP command or RHS medium jet in just three-four years. It ain't perfect but it ain't CTC.

The misguided notion, fed to ab-initios, that they can expect to complete their training and go straight to the RHS of an A320/737 is, in part, to blame for this scramble to the bottom. Direct RHS seat of a medium jet has always been for the minority of ab-initios, NOT the majority. Flying schools, blinkered wannabes and plentiful credit have not helped our industry.

[acepilotmurdock]

It is sheer madness. I am sorry, but how are you suppose to support a family, Pay bills,live and pay your training costs back? It shocks me when I hear people brandishing figures round for TR.....It's only another 30K :eek:. I am sorry 30k is a lot of money to me...or should I say a lot of work to pay it off!!!

[cheesycol]

Also, I sincerely hope easyJet pilots and the easyJet CC, invoke a meaningful and effective response to this. As muted on another forum - the refusal to fly with any pilot on this "contract" could benefit industry T&Cs and the unfortunate, broke FO who might be put on a reasonable contract as a result.

A stand (last stand methinks) must be taken.

[Dr Eckener]

The problem is, if you put the cadets on a decent salary, you will only attract more. For those who want this pay-your-way-into-a-jet nonsense to stop this is good news. BALPA and the easy crews on 'I'm alright jack' contracts will do nothing to stop this. They will moan and groan, but do nothing. They will commiserate the poor unfortunates when they are serving tea to the flight deck whilst working as cabin crew, but do nothing. If I'm wrong I'll happily eat my hat.

The only way this will stop is when the greedy slave traders at easy/CTC make things so bad that people stop training this way, and/or cannot get finance. Unfortunately, I think there will still be plenty of starry eyed youngsters and proud mums and dads to make this latest nonsense a goer.

In what other industry do companies take on inexperienced people when there are plenty of highly qualified and unemployed workers around?

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me.

How true is this old poem of the aviation industry today. Everyone is too busy saving their own skin to give a toss about anyone else.

[wind check]

Dear ladies and gentlemen,


I am sorry for you CTC cadets, but nobody forced you to go and sign with your pay to fly scheme in New Zeland!!!! You wanted to get a job directly from the flight school straight to an A319 at easyjet with no experience whatsoever, just by PAYING. :ugh:

And now you are crying :sad:

Cadets at Ryanair and easyjet are the cancer of the aviation. You are paying the bill yourselves guys! ;)

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Let us be absolutely clear about this - BALPA are most definitely interested in what is going on. They are locked into major conflict with the company on a whole host of issues and this is merely an attempt to outflank BALPA and effectively keep low-houred easyJet pilots outside of their protection. Both CTC and easyJet managers are increasingly ruthless in their attempt to destroy the power of the pilots. I invite the numerous union-haters on these forums to watch with alarm what a world without union protection at easyJet would look like.

In the last few days, I have significantly hardened my position, and wish that to be known. I had hoped that maybe Andy Harrison et al had learned the importance of dealing well with their employees. Somehow there is a disconnect in their thinking and they imagine that if they say they want easyJet to be 'a great place to work' that it will magically become so without any changes. They think that if they destroy the lives of people joining the company and just say soothing words to current pilots, then all will be well and no one will notice something is wrong. These people are without conscience and are aligning themselves up for major industrial strife. I personally cannot sit back and watch deals like this being offered and remain silent. This is straight back to the days of gin parlours and young children dying on the streets of London, Liverpool and Glasgow. Given the massive debt incurred in getting a flying licence in the first place, and the associated monthly payments, this is poverty on a plate. It would not be possible to physicaly buy crumbs to put in your mouth on this 'salary' and still pay your loan. I hear that a number of CTC cadets are about to go bankrupt as the only means available to them to be free of debt. This is the lunatics running the asylum - how can such a situation be acceptable in terms of flight safety and alone? I have reticent up to now to go for strike action - that situation has changed for me since I became aware of this easyJet/CTC deal. This is the final straw for me that showed we are dealing with moral bankrupts who simply have to be confronted. There are many legalities to be resolved here and this will not be easy. Nonetheless, I trust that even the most head-in-the-sand BALPA member can see the clear and present danger to every single pilot at easyJet. We simply have to confront this insane situation, plus all the other issues like B-scales, European contracts etc. There is no doubt that Training Captains like me have an acceptable deal, but that is no longer the issue for me. I cannot sit back and watch my colleagues face these attacks and do nothing to assist. I will therefore do whatever our union representatives require to see this through to an accpetable conclusion. I trust that many others will join me.

[fastjetpilot]

If CTC really cared about their cadets and their integrity/reputation they would at least subsidise the cost of the TR, if not pay for it completely. I always thought this was the case, I didn't realise eJ use to pay them for each cadet at the end of their 6 months.

If i read this correctly, a cadet now pays £70k + for basic and intermediate training, even though CTC always implied the TR was included as well. £70k for 100 hours SE and 50 odd ME seems slightly ridiculous to me.

Someone has already stated, this is a safety issue, malnourished and worried pilots do not make for good CRM. Perhaps the CAA should be getting involved, suspend CTC from training until this is resolved, maybe that would make them sit up.

[orangesky]

apologies in advance for what is probably a lengthy pose, but just some observations from my experience, having come through a cadet type scheme some years ago.

what a sad state of affairs!!! but i hear people saying "well its the only sniff of a job we will get this coming year" .... true, but you have to take a long term view of this industry - the golden years are gone!!

until people wanting to get into the industry (wannabes) realise that there is no glamour, very little job security, early career pay is appalling whereas if you get a proper degree you can get into most other industries which have far more attractive T&C's, and most importantly, the burden of debt which you will have when you start your flying career will be crippling financially to you for atleast the next 5 - 10 years....until they realise this there will be an endless queue of people outside the door of CTC thinking they have found the backdoor into the promised land. but unfortunately the industry is on its knees, and thanks to the low cost operators who have made flying accessible to all, it is us, at the front of the aircraft who are having to give up T&C's to keep ticket prices low.

people might think, lets use EZY as a career step, get a TR and some hours and move onto a proper airline, the problem is by EZY starting this sort of a scheme others will follow, so there wont be many proper airlines left! what is stopping EZY from starting the same scheme again in 2011? why pay guys/gals an hourly rate in their 3rd year, when they can take on a bunch of new people who they wont have to pay much to for their first 2 years....what happens to the people who joined this year ?!?!?!? what extra burden to the trainers ?

unfortunately BALPA should have outlawed paying for your own TR years ago when the schemes first started and they should have a minimum salary table for each type of aircraft. look at train drivers, tube drivers, GP's etc they have very strong unions who effectively have their employers by the short and curlies...whats the result ... every year train fares increase ... unlike the fares in our industry !!! the result being the commuter pays for the drivers salary increase, whereas us at the front of the aircraft take a paycut to subsidise the punters down the back to go on even cheaper holidays ...what a bizarre world we live in !!!

my advice, become a lawyer, GP or even a train driver, more favourable student loan arrangements (theres a surprise) better T&Cs better job security!

[The Real Slim Shady]

Norman

This pay for your training and maybe get a job has been around a long, long time.

Midland, another BALPA airline, were doing this on the quiet way back in the mid 90s when things were slack and they excess sim and training capacity: they sold lots of 737 TRs to youngsters with the vague and very loose carrot of "there is a job for you with a 737 TR".

Lots of youngsters shelled out for a 737 course only to find he 737 job wasn't with Midland!

Did keep the Midland sim busy though!

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

All very interesting as discussions are as to whether or not you should have become a train driver or lawyer or indeed about what BALPA could have, should have or did not do in the past, they are completely irrelevant to the current situation. What matters is what we are going to do now. I understand that there is a lot going on behind the scenes between BALPA and the company as we speak. I wait with interest to see what appears.

[NOT ORANGE]

Remember going to CTC in the early days to do some stuff for my Easy command course and talking to guys with about 100hrs tt who were telling me about their s.a. etc!Sad part is not BALPA but the fact this was set up by pilots(ex Brittania) who ,having had a full career ,never having paid a bean for their flying and with big index linked pensions decided to screw the next generation....nice.We are as a profession our own worst enemies ,just hope they dont teach their wonderful fuel policy.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

All very interesting as discussions are as to whether or not you should have become a train driver or lawyer or indeed about what BALPA could have, should have or did not do in the past, they are completely irrelevant to the current situation. What matters is what we are going to do now.

Couldn't agree more. I really don't care about the past when it comes to the issues we are facing. We can either bitch and moan about Balpa's previous impotency or actually do something ourselves and put a stop to a developing situation that is quickly resembling a crime to humanity. The new proposed contract will result in cadets' becoming increasingly financially destitute. It is up to all ezy pilots to act together because we will all be contractors by the end of the next decade if we do nothing. The rot is setting in from the bottom. If the company cannot afford to pay the cadets or does not feel they warrant a proper contract, then they shouldn't employ them. Balpa is just a negotiating tool, it is down to us all to act cohesively and actually stand up to the exploitation that is going on under our noses. We have the best people in our Company Council to negotiate on our behalf, what they require is our complete backing.

[Dr Eckener]

I have reticent up to now to go for strike action -
You don't say!
In the last few days, I have significantly hardened my position
About time. But I still don't think anything will happen.
There are many legalities to be resolved here and this will not be easy
In other words, any attempt to resolve things will be buried in committee meetings, and, guess what - NOTHING WILL HAPPEN.

Why can you not demand that easy suspend the relationship with CTC immediately, along with any pay-to-fly schemes, sub-contracts, etc, or strike action will follow? They will not cave in to a barrage of hot air NSF.

[Birdy767]

www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/358103-market-flooded-experienced-pilots-makes-pimps-happy.html

That s all crap... You are right saying that pay to fly is the cancer of aviation. It s unfortunately too late now.

Worst Wishes for the low cost.

[captplaystation]

Norman,

Glad you heeded my advice of last week, unfortunately this "scheme" is all part and parcel of a wider economic plan on a far grander scale.
Credit/ buy your own job/buy your own house/ sell your granny . . . it is the easiest way for govts to control the masses.
Keep everyone in debt, on a short term contract, paid only when/if they work, a governmental dream. Everyone so sh1t scared they won't say Booh!

This fantastic "scheme" is just a reflection of the cancer that is eating every industry in every country.
We are all slowly but surely becoming psuedo-chinese, no rights no opinions, shut up and work or die on the streets.
That is where the wonderful state of Europe is headed, and it ain't accidental.
We can fight our own little battle here, but the big picture is the same all around us.
Vive le revolution ! it's about time.

[JW411]

There are a lot of very, very brave words being thrown around here but I can predict from my past experience that words are all that will be thrown around.

I will be astonished if anything material is actually done and I can also just about bet a year's salary that BALPA will achieve anything more than the square root of FA. Why should they? There is nothing in it for them.

[Elephant and Castle]

Just so easy isn´t it? to come in here and spout the cynical view. Nothing will ever happen, bla bla bla look at me I am so clever, so cynical.... Guess what? the conditions that we all enjoy where fought hard by those before us, 30 years ago we also had people that stood to the side making wisecracks, excuses for themselves. They where ignored.

I am now willing to fight all the way not to have our pilots sleeping in their cars at the airport, turning up to work exausted and worried only to fly 65tons of metal fuel and people into a hill. You are too busy admiring your navel? just get out of the way so others can get on with doing the dirty work for you.

[Coppi]

trss and leo/mol are using these forums bashing balpa so as to discourage the pilots in ruinair from joining a union.
This is leo's biggest fear and he does whatever he can, like threaten with base closures,bashing balpa on these forums, etc to prevent a union from materializing in his company.
The other one is just his servant echoing his master at every opportunity, hoping for a crum to be thrown at him.

[The African Dude]

I think Double the Drift has hit the nail on the head. From the perspective of a CTC hold pool swimmer, of course.

And assuming that it's all correct, too. I haven't heard anything from CTC about it - no surprise there.

Who was it that said those we criticise are only what we would be under similar circumstances? So the question is how to change the circumstances... not sure I know the answer to that one either.

[R T Jones]

"cadets, sorry you got suckered into the whole debt thing but now if you don't mind please turn down that lifeline job offer that will suck you dry but will, after a few years, leave you qualified and able to get on with your career."

As a cadet in the hold pool I agree with that statement. To us it seems its either take what you can get with the possibility of it leading onto more, or turn down the opportunity and have it given to the next one in line. A rock and a hard place I believe is the phrase!

[lpokijuhyt]

If you don't like the conditions then quit....quit flying. Conditions are only going to get worse. Balpa isn't going to do crap. You are preaching to the choir when you say conditions are terrible. OK, what's new?

[greywind]

If you don't like the conditions then quit....quit flying.

If only it were that easy, most CTC cadets are now at a point where financially they will have to take whatever lands on the table or face the possibility of bankruptcy or quite possibly both if everything is to be believed!

And the whole you deserve what you get I did my time in a 152 attitude helps nobody. There are plenty of cadets at CTC who would have gone the long route (me included) but at the time of joining CTC the opportunity was there to get it all done quicker and easier so we took it - saying we deserve what we get will help nobody and is completely undeserved.

[cjd_a320]

That seems to be the underlining idea lpokijuhyt.

CTC will get a reduced Holding pool through accelerated "natural wastage" which is desirable going forward.

The Cost & productivity savings at EZJ LN are obvious.

[silverknapper]

All this while they have a TRSS pool full of experienced TP skippers. A mate of mine has been swimming for 18 months, and knows full well he won't end up in an orange airbus anytime soon, unless he bends over and thinks of England. And at wages like these no experienced person would go near them. Flight Safety case anyone?

[RED WINGS]

I agree something needs to be done! Maybe a ban on short term contracts would help? I back NSF and wish him luck I hope something is achieved! But its interesting that the BA cabin crew are been slated with vitrol on this forum for doing exactly the same thing and standing up for there T&Cs! Its a strange industry and unless things change soon I think a career change driving a coach for National Express will be the more attractive option!

[Mintflavour]

At the beginning of 2008 I was on a TR course for an airline along side of a number of CTC cadets. On asking them how big their loans were at this stage (so this will be real costs of the course including there own spending money) they all had £100K+. This excludes any type rating. So under this new contract, this will be an obscene investment.

I really would like to know if cadets are being forced into it.
If they all stood up united and said no then surely CTC and EJ should try and offer an improvement to the current proposed contract.

But I would suspect that some cadets will accept it while others rejected it to try and get ahead of the game, not realising in that selfish mindset that they are guilty in ruining it for everybody.

mint

[poss]

I don't think a full ban on short term contracts is plausible... but something has to be done. Perhaps a rule stating that permanent contracts must be handed to meet the forecast needs of the company but where these forecasts fail to meet what is actually required then crew can be outsourced.
As has already been stated though, we can sit here and speculate possible changes that could happen and moan about the raw deal that this industry is handing it's pilots but that gets us no where.

I can't see many cadets jumping at the oppertunity to pay an extra 4-5 grand to then be contracted for 3 years on a wage that wont cover their loan repayments but as stated by R T Jones already, if the oppertunity is there is it worth passing up so someone else can take it. In the case of the rumour of cadets having to fund a type rating upto £30,000... CTC has been a company that those without access to funding could join and realise their dream of become an airline pilot... the holding pool is currently comprised of those pilots and I think it highly unlikely that hardly anyone has access to that kind of money. If they do though are they willing to spend that extra dosh on a TR with little promise of a permanent contract?
I guess time will answer these questions.

But its interesting that the BA cabin crew are been slated with vitrol on this forum for doing exactly the same thing and standing up for there T&Cs!

It's really more to do with the timing of their strike... it is very possible that such action could cause BA to go bust. I hope that talks start before the strike occurs and resolves the issues.

[captain_quagmire]

That offer is absolutely unreal. Sad thing is that people will still take it.

I genuinely cant see a way for this to be fixed either?

[v6g]

I actually think this is a good move, since it ensures mass bankruptcy for even the "lucky" few who get jobs.

Large numbers of defaulted loans is the ONLY way to stop these schemes.

[gyni]

You've got to hand it to Warrick and Cor. The poster above is their wet dream...and there are hundreds more like it! If you won't help yourself then don't expect any help from me.

[FANS]

No one here is surprised one bit by this news.

The airline's management have made a perfectly rational decision.

Yes it's a disgrace and my initial reaction is that the senior pilots should take a stand, but on seconds don't do it, you'll get ripped apart. Why?
- these cadets have willingly chosen this option, and recognised the risk that on signing up for £70k, it's not a guaranteed job.
- if this goes to a full strike and the EZY press office get stuck in, there will be pictures of cadets standing outside mummy and daddy's big house talking of their hardship versus hard-up family deprived of their only ever holiday = PR disaster. Then management can really get stuck in.

- But above all, the cadets will keep coming and filling places so you're fighting a loosing battle. The TR could be £35k/£45k, people would still pay. It's a complete mess, but you can't loose sight of the fact that people have willingly choosen to take on these huge amounts of debt with no guarantees and therefore spun the dice (and we effectively now have risk takers in/wanting to be in the flight deck- but that's another topic).

[meeeee]

To be quite honest, I am sensing a LOT of sour grapes here Ladies and Gents...what do people have against young pilots from CTC and other such organisations?

C'mon get a grip!

[razor27]

'- if this goes to a full strike and the EZY press office get stuck in, there will be pictures of cadets standing outside mummy and daddy's big house talking of their hardship versus hard-up family deprived of their only ever holiday = PR disaster. Then management can really get stuck in.'

That's exactly the problem isn't it. Guys like you who obviously don't know what they're talking about. These guys are on unsecured loans so they are from all walks of life. The perception that we are all starry eyed 19 years olds whose parents have bought us a job so they can tell the neighbours how wonderfully their son is doing is rubbish.
Fast forward 2 years and I will agree with you and am amazed that with the current information people are still signing up for slave labour terms and conditions.
There are 200 cadets swimming out there who have just been incredibly unluckly to see a good deal turn into slave labour in the space of a few months.

[Zippy Monster]

Unless someone comes up with a masterstroke, I'm sure it'll remain a case of 'take what we're given and be grateful'.

That is exactly what CTC and easyJet management want to hear. "Be grateful you have a job".

Summer contracts are one thing. This is something completely different and many times worse. If I was in the position I was in last year, and this was the only offer on the table, I would be seriously considering jacking it all in.

Baguette, you can sit around all day proclaiming that "I set out to become an airline pilot 2 years ago and I'm going to achieve my goal" but believe me, the career really isn't worth what they're asking from you now. Forget all this romantic schoolboy notion about "being a pilot". I was lucky enough to secure a permanent contract, albeit miles away from my family and friends and missus in a country where I don't speak a word of the language, and as I'm sitting reading this and watching the constant and accelerating downward spiral, I'm starting to wonder what it was all for. That nice view out of the window starts to look the same after a while. It's easy for me to say, but people faced with the choice of a £28k type rating and 3 year contract on toilet-cleaner money would be better off packing up, going bankrupt and starting again with a clean sheet of paper. The industry is in a mess, and you won't realise what you've got yourself into until it's too late.

[zk-pontius]

I sincerely hope that the views expressed here will be kept out of the flight deck if any of the posters are EZY captains as it will make the working environment very unpleasant and not condusive to a low hours pilot focussing on their job properly if all this hellfire and brimstone is thrown at them from the left hand seat - I'm not saying you don't all have valid points but there is a lot of animosity going on in these threads...I'm glad I don't have to work with any of you! :)

[spanner the cat]

Baguette. If you read some of the past posts in various Ryanair and EasyJet threads you'll get it.

These sorts of schemes are a cancer in todays aviation. As The Real Slim Shady (helpfully) points out, they have been going on for some time - BMI in the early to mid nineties, BAC Express and their Shorts 360 ratings. These "opportunities" weren't the normal way of getting the first leg up and were far and few between.

I know, I've been there, it's hard getting your first job but these schemes aren't helping future Ts and Cs in this industry. How on earth do you think you'll be able to move onto better paid, more stable employment if the employers you are likely to be targeting will only take on new batches of inexperienced cadets? It is happening now. Experience is a positive disadvantage as they can't make any money out of training you, you cost more to employ, you're probably better able to discern when you're being shafted and know when to say "No". BALPA's Log magazine recently had a very good article on the why's and wherefore's of these schemes and how they are affecting the industry today. You unfortunately find yourself caught in the crossfire.

This way of recruiting is very negative, divisive and, I believe, unsustainable. The other thing to remember is that you have proved yourself willing to fund your own type-rating and buy yourself into the industry. Perhaps you'll have to fund your next type course - and your next one, and your LPC/OPCs, buy your own uniform, pay for your medical, sort out your own pension arrangements, don't forget parking at work, security passes, disclosures, recurrent ground training, a bill for trainer time on line checks, pay for Cat C airfield clearances, your command upgrade. Better have good plastic.

Don't be a tart!

Spanner

[TDK mk2]

Spanner says it all and all those who have put their hand in their own pocket to secure a job have to a greater or lesser extent contributed to the current situation. And it's only going to get worse. I've been fortunate to have only had to sign bonds in my 9 years in the industry but I sure wouldn't like to be starting now.

P.S. I sent the following to your men;

Well done gentlemen

You and EasyJet together have ushered in a new era of slavery to the industry. I notice that many of you are former airline pilots yourselves (if 'Captain' actually means anything these days) and therefore it makes it all the more intriguing that you should invent such ways to separate our less experienced brethren (which I assume you once also were) from great sums of money from which you presumably reward yourselves handsomely and buy lots of stuff to reinforce your self importance.

I salute you sirs, one and all.

'Captain' XXX XXXXXXX.

[rusty_y2k2]

I very rarely post here, but there are two recurring themes I constantly see cropping up in various threads on this subject that I would like to challenge... not because I expect anyone to change their opinions, but because if I don't at least stand up for myself no one else will.

First, regarding comments about CTC cadets referring to mummy and daddy. Until recently the loans were unsecured - some people seem to not understand that this means a rich mum and dad were not required to secure anything. That was one of the great appeals of the scheme as it was back then - if you had the "skills" then you could get a loan pretty much regardless of your background and live the dream..... of course the dream isn't what it was, but you tend to find that out £70,000 later.

The vast majority of cadets from CTC were not funded by mummy and daddy, and do not have large houses to cry outside of as suggested. in all but the exceptional cases the debt is the cadet's and no one else's.

I'm sorry to bring this up here, but I find such misinformed comments to be incredibly belittling and derogatory.

The second point that I find slightly irksome is the suggestion that I am adding to captains' fatigue levels. I have yet to have a captain leave the flight with a thousand yard stare, and every flight I can remember has had a pleasant and convivial flight deck environment with goodbyes at the end of the day usually comprising of "pleasure flying with you". Unless of course most captains are just accomplished liars! Further, I don't believe I am anything particularly out of the ordinary in that regard as all the impressions I get from captains regarding the CTC cadets is generally complementary. Of course there may always be the odd exceptions that prove the rule...

I understand that there are certain points to be made when pushing for better terms and conditions, and that low experience on the flight deck is a valid cause for concern. Equally however, I don't find the suggestion of cadet pilots such as myself causing captain's to go prematurely grey particularly productive.


With that said, back on topic - this new deal being presented to cadets is an order of magnitude worse than the summer contracts debacle, which was already leaving many feeling somewhat used and abused.

This new deal makes the last minute re-location, no holiday, no sick pay, part time work of this winter seem positively wonderful.

In some ways I am surprised anyone has signed up to such a blatantly horrific deal but at the same time I can understand why they have. HSBC have started taking an incredibly hard line towards us and are no longer accepting reduced repayments after 6 months, instead requiring the full amount or commencing debt collection actions if they are unable to take it out of our accounts. This is a problem even for the guys who are working this winter as it is not possible to afford the full newly amortized repayments on the part time wages.

So for those guys who don't even have the winter work I can understand that life must be looking so grim that they will take anything dangled in front of them! That combined with the seemingly typical shock tactic of "here's the deal but you start yesterday so you don't have time to think about it - yes or no now" must be quite difficult to overcome.

Of great concern though is that the flexicrew contract is up for renewal in January - one has to wonder whether it will involve a similar hourly rate deal which would be far inferior to what we are currently on, which itself is not sufficient at the moment to repay the loans.

The question is how we move on from this point without resorting to infighting and disparaging comments.

[northern boy]

Absolutely no sympathy. You all wanted to bypass the system and were willing to pay to do it. Now the managements are treating you like the short sighted idiots that you all are. In the process you have destroyed the terms and conditions in this industry and sent it on a downward spiral from which it will not recover. Now you have no prospects of permanent employment, god knows how much debt and have earned the utter contempt of nearly everyone in the business who have suffered from your "gimme it all now" attitude. Good luck job hunting with 500 hours or however much you managed to get. Now perhaps you realise that your schoolboy dreams of paying for 6 months line training will not automatically lead to a left seat at Emirates and the promises of the crooks at CTC and elsewhere were nothing more than bullsh*t.

If you want sympathy, look it up in the dictionary. Between sh*t and syphilis I believe.

[rusty_y2k2]

I'm not sure anyone wants your sympathy...

Your spare change perhaps though.

[Zippy Monster]

You all wanted to bypass the system and were willing to pay to do it.System?

Presumably you're one of these types who thinks everyone has to log 20,000hrs in a knackered banner-towing taildragger before being allowed to consider themselves worthy of being a 'real pilot'.

The CTC Cadet scheme used to be a proven, respected route into the airlines for people who were the right stuff, before it all went to pot and became just another integrated course as it is today. It used to offer three big advantages over the traditional 0-fATPL - a 100% job placement record, a portfolio of partner airlines queueing to take cadets on, and unsecured finance to go and do it. None of these remain, but how were those unfortunate enough to be the victim of this latest screwing to know it would turn out like this?

How many times does it have to be repeated - most of the people finding themselves in this position now do so having signed up for the thing in the first place in good faith, in the middle of a massive hiring boom when the probability of the risk paying off was high. Regardless of the rights/wrongs of accepting the derisory contract on offer, your anger is misplaced.

By all means attack those who are still signing up for courses like CTC in the never-ending procession to join the back of the queue, or those who started the precedent by coming out of expensive schools and then finding €33k or whatever it is for a Ryanair/Brookfield job when credit was cheap (the system which, by and large, and apart from the few smaller cases mentioned earlier on, set the precedent for what we are seeing now.) But berating those who are right in the thick of this problem, through little or no fault of their own, is unfair.

[poss]

When it boils down to it, cadets are paying for training... not to fly for an airline. Infact if you know anything of the CTC scheme you will know that it is/was the airlines that paid for the type rating at the end of the course (of course the cadet was then bonded for 7 years working at lower wage than direct entry but certainly not pay to fly). The new terms of employment are just that, new and the numbers just might be incorrect... they may be worse, may be better but until we see official word can we really believe anything completely?
It sounds like you are refering to paying to fly for an airline such as RYR with the possibility of getting a job upon successful completion of line training.

[flyboy1818]

I rarely post on these forums but in recent weeks I have indeed been forced out of damm right necessity.

I am very pleased to see that HSBC are requiring the full repayment and they have every right to do so. Easyjet have been there own worst enemy here, no one either secured or unsecured will ever lend money to the likes of CTC cadets again once this fiasco has gone down. Its over and thank the good Lord for that! You have been undercutting everyone for years and you deserve this. This was the biggest aviation pyramid scheme ever and its over no one will let there kids go on the course once they have heard about this. Modular vs Integrated, guess who wins!

For any wannabes reading this give yourself the power to choose, work hard and get a second career like me, it can still be in the industry. Take out the minimum amount of debt possible, once the course is done you can choose to say yes or no to such offers and you won't have HSBC chasing your arse!

[Zippy Monster]

Modular vs Integrated, guess who wins!

Completely and utterly irrelevent and pointless in this discussion.

There are enough threads elsewhere if you want to bring that old chestnut up again.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

When an accident occurs, there is a lot of sanctimonious twaddle spoken by people who were not there but would have done so much better than the people who were. Such is the case here, whereby pilots who are blessed to be in senior positions within the industry were presumably born from their mother's womb with a logbook containing 10,000 hours in their hands. They never had to struggle to get a job, required no help from anyone else and were just so employable they did not have to sell their souls like these nasty little CTC cadets. What they forget is that once upon a time, they too aspired to be an airline pilot. They sat down and read every possible book and magazine on the subject and worked out the route most likely to bring success. To some it was joining HM Forces, to others it was PPL, CPL, SCPL, ATPL, Instructor Rating, Turboprops and then jets. To still others it was Hamble cadetship. They did whatever they had to do to become pilots. Right now the only way to achieve that dream we all had is to become a CTC cadet. It costs a fortune but debt is way more acceptable today than it was previously, plus it was a clear route to a jet job. Who, hand on heart, can blame anyone for doing it? Plenty of you it would appear! What would you have done if you were starting out again? I know what I would have done - gone to CTC because I simply had no other choice. How can you be so self-righteous now as to blame these guys/gals for doing so?

We now have real-live airline pilots at easyJet living 3 to a room on mattresses on the floor to somehow stave off greater debt, and yet they are criticised for it. This is so wrong - these guys are becoming slaves in a way we never were. Rather than carp on from our ivory towers about 'back in the day', we must ensure that the latest entrants into our industry are protected from the vile excesses of Ruinair, Brookfield, easyJet and CTC. They are all part of the same deal - rich thieves getting richer whilst poor pilots get poorer. The only effective counter to this is BALPA - warts and all. They deserve our full support as without them this industry is finished.

[Mister Geezer]

Right now the only way to achieve that dream we all had is to become a CTC cadet. It costs a fortune but debt is way more acceptable today than it was previously, plus it was a clear route to a jet job. Who, hand on heart, can blame anyone for doing it? Plenty of you it would appear! What would you have done if you were starting out again? I know what I would have done - gone to CTC because I simply had no other choice. How can you be so self-righteous now as to blame these guys/gals for doing so?

What happened to starting off flying turboprops like I and many others have done? CTC is not the only option but it is rather the 'easier' option but also the most expensive as well. We are now in the dire situation where a new turboprop F/O in the UK will take home more money than a new F/O sitting in a easyJet Airbus plus the former will probably be on a full time contract too.

When you look at it in that context, then the whole situation is simply laughable and I would be laughing myself if someone had told me a few years ago, this is the predicament that we would be in. Sadly it is no laughing matter and the time to take action was when the rot first started.

[fiftypercentn1]

The solution is very easy, these types of contract should be illegal. Full stop.
If a company tries to implement them, it must be closed the day after by the government.

It should be illegal to self fund a Type Rating too, only company sponsored type ratings should be valid on a licence. And of course no way you should be able to pay hours on a line operation.

Stop blaming people who try to build a future for themselves not realizing what we all do after a few years in this business.

[GreatBelt]

I have seen how this "paid by the hour thing" works for real with Brookfield pilots or pilots on high Sector Pay. This form of pay is a big safety hazard and should be referred to the CAA.

I have seen pilots flying when in my judgement they should have called in sick simply because they need the money.

I have seen pilots go into discretion where they shouldn't because they will loose the next day pay.

I have seen pilots who don't take leave because they can't afford it.

I have seen pilot depressed, stressed out and frustrated with their situation of feeling trapped and abused and not able to do anything thing about it.

How on earth contracts like this is possible in a modern world is beyond me.

The only ones that can stop this madness is the pilots within the airline. They are to blame not the Cadets.

[totto70]

All of this is pure and simple greed. The ones responsible is has been pointed out again and again CTC and Easyjet mainly, Although this is fullfilling other airline managers wet dream as well.

"CTC has always been a reliable source of quality pilots. Our marketplace is changing - the ability to have a seasonal supply of pilots is something only previously considered by the smaller operators. However, we all have to revisit our approach to resourcing and this could provide a very workable solution for more airlines as our industry evolves."
Captain Tim Cheal, Training Manager, Thomas Cook Airlines


I am not sure if you could call EZY one of the "smaller" operators but here you go the future. This should be the first thing people should come across before taking the step to become an airlinepuppet, sorry pilots i think we are still called.
So if you want to go ahead and fullfilling your dream about flying airplanes do that please it is still fun. But for ***'s sake forget the nice house,car and all the other stuff you used to be able to treat yourself with before.

It must be stopped from within the airlines themselves, i wonder how much more expensive a ticket would be if the airlines did this properly.

[R T Jones]

Talking about the CTC Scheme and how timing is oh so important. I was having a long conversation with a cadet last night, after 12 months of deferring his unsecured loan HSBC are now forcing them into bankruptcy. They flew 6 months with easyjet over the summer, got stood down and is now heading off to Africa to fly light singles and twins. Some may argue they are in a good position, debt free and flying for a living. The wage they quoted me wasn't too bad considering the cost of living out there. They also drew my attention to a friend who finished 3 months earlier, they have just completed their A330 conversion and is flying long haul for Thomas Cook on a permanent contract.

I never saw CTC as a cheaters way to become a pilot, if you want to become an airline pilot, surely you should train as that from day one. When I signed up it was doing exactly what it said on the tin, taking people with the ability from zero hours into the RHS of an airliner on a permanent contract within 2 years. Of course it was a risk taking out that much debt in my name at such a young age, however the evidence I had seen suggested that getting into CTC was a sure in to an airline job. As opposed to FTE and Oxford. With that sure in was all the money you required, unsecured! Jackpot, who at the start of their careers would have turned that down and decided no, instead I'm going to diligently save for 5 years and do this on my own. It would be noble if we all thought like that, but unfortunately were human and that just isn't the case! And plus, its unsecured, so if it does all go tits up I'll still have my parents house to go back to.

I'm sure I'll get a bit of flack for the last paragraph I've written, I don't mind, I simply wrote it to try and reply to northern_boys post and explain it from a prospective cadet.

[stansdead]

" We are now in the dire situation where a new turboprop F/O in the UK will take home more money than a new F/O sitting in a easyJet Airbus plus the former will probably be on a full time contract too."

That's what we think now. But, no TP operators are recruiting currently.

Let's just see if they try and emulate this CTC scheme - except with, likely, even worse conditions again.

This sh1t has to stop.

[olster]

NSF has a point,well made in that the older generation of pilots had more opportunity in terms of that route to the rhs of an airliner.However,and it is probably non-pc to state this but that route was not open to all.And certainly not easier.

The 60's and 70's had proper sponsorship for aspirant airline pilots.To obtain a place on one of these courses required a fairly high academic standard coupled with a rigorous selection procedure.As much as we probably do not want to hear this generally the best prospects were chosen.The same criteria were applied to military pilots.Basically,these were the two main ways to become an airline pilot or the well-trodden 'self-improver' route which imho also produced in general a very determined and able pilot.None of these routes landed the potential pilot with ludicrous amounts of debt -and I do not believe that there is a more tolerant view of debt -quite the reverse.

As a former trainer in orange world I always thought that there would be a line I would not cross.That line was training pilots who are paying for line training-this is manifestly ridiculous.I would and still would have resigned from training at that juncture.To back up NSF us 'older' pilots need to be supportive of the next generation of pilots and probably the best mechanism is Balpa.

atb

[Mister Geezer]

stansdead

There has been a trickle of recruitment onto props. I have seen the odd story on here from a low hours chap plus Flybe took a few from their pool recently. However it is still a drop in the ocean when you consider the number of unemployed pilots but the job market has and will always be a case of 'survival of the fittest'.

If we start reading about CTC buying ATR and Dash 8 sims then the writing is on the wall!

[HundredPercentPlease]

I feel very sorry for the cadets, who are only doing what everyone else has done. Take the only/best route into getting a job.

The issue here is purely financial - supply and demand. eJ are exploiting the pilots and the market state. But the plain fact is that eJ made an offer, and the pilot willingly accepted it. A little like the £11k pa Ryanair was offering just after Sept 11. "Take it or leave it" has been in contract law for a long time now.

But...

There is a flight safety issue.

And...

Why doesn't the cadet simply:
Accept the offer.
Do the TR and line training.
Leave eJ due to stress and agree to pay the £28,000.
Go bankrupt and leave eJ with the bill.
Equity restored.

[stansdead]

100% please.

Because to do that knowingly, wittingly and with a plan in place would most likely see you in Court for Fraud.

Also, the Cadet would be unemployed and likely, unemployable.

Notwithstanding those possible points, it's a good idea!!

[northern boy]

To all those having a good old go. Excellent, its time this immoral and disgusting practice was brought out into the cold light of day. What I'd really like to see is the whole affair all over the papers and TV. Pay to fly kids taking you on holiday whilst experienced pilots sit at home on the dole.

I was desperate for my first flying job once upon a time. I understand how you all feel. I applied and applied and applied and waited and made contacts and applied again until I landed a turboprop position. From there I built my way up onto jets. I had low hours as well but I was one amongst a batch of recruits some of whom were experienced guys who were redundant and some of whom were entering the business for the first time. Yes, the BA sponsored cadets had a good deal, yes some went straight onto jets but I seem to remember quite a few were headed for the ATP. I don't remember any of them moaning and demanding a 757 either.

All I say to you is wait. Wait until ten or fifteen years down the line when you are laid off or have your salary chopped due to "economic circumstances".Wait until you have a mortgage and a family and you cannot get even so much as a look in anywhere because all the places are "reserved" for those coming via a "scheme" like CTC or Oxford. See how you feel about having to retrain in your 50's because you can't manage on the reduced income. See how you feel about the youngsters who are buying their way into what used to be your good job. See how you feel about the training managements taking their bonuses whilst you get laid off. Fantasy?, the ramblings of a bitter old man? ask the BMI crews at LHR or the Thomsonfly crews who are about to be chucked on the scrapheap or the NJE crews who are struggling to cope for the next 4 years. The reason this job is being reduced below the status and conditions of a bus driver is precisely because of schemes like CTC making carriers the sort of offer they cannot refuse. These schemes would not exist if there were not a never ending line of aspirants who put their fingers in their ears and say "no, no, no I don't hear anything" whilst the rest of the industry tries desperately to warn them of the short sightedness of their actions and the consequences for the entire profession.

Well the chickens have finally come home to roost. This was inevitable and I'm afraid that I find it very difficult to have any sympathy whatsoever. Sorry but there it is. Go into any crew room and try your luck, I doubt you will find much there either.

Aviation is heading the same way as coal mining did in the 1980's.

[FANS]

I'm well aware that the older cadets had unsecured loans.

The point about being outside mummy and daddy's house was simply to flag that this may be the spin that EZY put on things, if strike action is called - do no underestimate how underhand things could get.

Yes - CTC was a great product for many, but it was always risky (and NOT the only way) and you're playing with a huge sum. You pay your money, you take your chance.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

And so you see, children, some things were never meant to fly. Like the Ostrich and the northern Dodo.

It isn't aspirant pilots that keep you from the air, Northernboy, it is the consequences of unionisation over the decades that have insisted on the jobs for the few with their fur-lined terms and conditions, and consequent airfares beyond the reach of mere mortals. Mercifully, those days are behind us. Could it be something else keeping you ground bound? Attitude perhaps?

If you feel the need to point the bone at something as the root cause of your misfortune, point it at the unions who, for decades, have sought to create a virtual cartel of whom could fly and who not.

Being hysterical doesn't help your case much. If the CTC deal is too much to bear, don't accept it. With nobody taking it up it'll soon vanish and Norman can work over Christmas instead of having it with his family, much like our golden-balled chums at British Airways who have the 12 days of Christmas (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/6813814/British-Airways-12-days-of-Christmas-strikes-hit-a-million-passengers.html)by hearth and home.

[Doug the Head]

And so you see, children, some things were never meant to fly. Like the Ostrich and the northern Dodo.AND about 90% of RyanScare's customers, so be careful what you wish for! ;)

[one post only!]

Baguette, we have to fight for you! We have to as we are fighting for our own survival also. Your attitude of take what we are given and be grateful will pull our T&C's down into the mud with yours. I am not saying this is your fault but don't roll over and be happy with it. Or if you want to roll over fine, but don't be upset if the rest of us aren't happy about it and want to fight this. I am slightly disappointed that you are willing to ruin the T&C's of thousands incase it means it will take you slightly longer to get a jet job!!!!

I have a dream also and I am passionate about my dream. My dream is to enjoy my job and earn enough to allow my family a good standard of living. You want your dream so allow me to want my own. Allow me to fight to protect my "dream". Hopefully both our "dreams" can come true. That would be my goal in all this.

I hope you don't mind but I will try and fight this one for you if thats ok? I would strike over this tomorrow. You WILL benefit. I will benefit.

[Locarno]

Firstly, as a cadet pilot from CTC, freshly entering the hold-pool I'd like to say I've been rather overwhelmed by other Training Captains and other colleagues already established within the airline industry. Just knowing a few of you are even sympathetic towards our plight really means something. The hint that you're willing to speak up for us means even more.

(And on a slightly different note, how DARE some of you call us Cadet Pilots "the skurge of the airline industry". CTC, at the time, was the only way I could ever become an airline pilot. I am poor. My family are poor. This is my chance to NOT be poor, so how dare you pass judgement on someone thats trying their damned best to be successful)

Anyways, now that I've got that out my system:

I'm scared. Really, well and truly. And I'm also really confused.
Surely paying £70,000 for a course, to be told at the VERY end to pay another £30,000 can't be...legal?
Is that not like shelling out £100,000 for a 4 bedroom semi-detached in prime location to end in a 1 bedroom cottage in the middle of nowhere?
We paid for a product, we bought a service - and that service/product has not lived up to any kind of expectations - and has infact...Changed completely. Are we not entitled to some kind of refund?

Okay, maybe refunds are not the way to go - but I'm still scared.
Just like with the housing/economy collapse, is this not the same way it all went tits up with that?

We cannot accept this deal, there is absolutely no way we can afford it.
Yet, we cannot afford not to either. What the hell are we supposed to do?

All this strike talk - is it feasable?

[lpokijuhyt]

Actually, the changed terms of your CTC contract is legal because it is "real airline world" training for the future when you are at an airline and your T and Cs change monthly. I believe the ATPL is going to add another subject called, "changing terms and conditions".

Honestly, buddy, I'm sad to hear your misery with the finances. They know that you have come so far and spent a load of money, so they are banking on that you won't throw in the towel while being so close to that shiny jet. So, really they played everybody beautifully because your screwed if you don't accept the new terms and screwed if you do accept the terms. Its win-win for them.

[ROSCO328]

Do not give me all this "POOR" ****, it took me seven years to get my licence and I paid every penny through hard work and determination! I have no sympathy for any of you. Yes I would go on strike to stop Ezy opening this avenue but ONLY to protect all of the current pilot's T&C'S in Easyjet from being further attacked.

[Bealzebub]

I'm scared. Really, well and truly. And I'm also really confused.
Surely paying £70,000 for a course, to be told at the VERY end to pay another £30,000 can't be...legal?
Is that not like shelling out £100,000 for a 4 bedroom semi-detached in prime location to end in a 1 bedroom cottage in the middle of nowhere?
We paid for a product, we bought a service - and that service/product has not lived up to any kind of expectations - and has infact...Changed completely. Are we not entitled to some kind of refund?

I really sympathise with you, but would point out the following:

You paid for a product and you got it. The training and the licence. What else were you guaranteed in the terms of the contract? The £30,000 you are now being offered a type rating for, wasn't presumably any part of your contract. It might well have been the likely progression when it was being marketed to you, but without any contractual agreement that included this, that really doesn't matter much. You are not being told to pay another £30,000. You are being made an offer. You can refuse it.

As for the service you purchased. Again it comes down to the contract. Unless there is a contractual breach of something that you purchased, your expectations are largely irrelevant.

Actually it is like shelling out £100,000 for a 4 bedroom house, with the exception that with the house you have a tangible asset that you can normally re-sell, albeit perhaps at a loss. It is a large purchase that will have involved contracts. Wisely you would have taken legal advice before entering into a contract of this size. Whatever you purchase there are always potential pitfalls, and it is important to fully understand what you are buying before signing on the dotted line or parting with your cash.

I understand how frustrating and annoying and potentially disasterous this is, but legally you can only rely on the contracts you entered into. It is no consolation, but the whole industry is in crisis. The weakness in these schemes was only ever going to become evident when the market for them reached satuation point. That has well and truly happened.

[one post only!]

The thing is the course was always structured to end after advanced training. Advanced training consisted of the type rating, line training and then line "experience". The line training/flying portion lasted 6 months. Durning this time you were paid a "salary" from CTC as you were not employed by the airline but were completing your training.

The CTC package therefore always was £60k (now a lot more) for (f)ATPL/Type rating/approx 500hrs. After completing all training you got a permanent contract. This then changed to only getting a flexi contract but all the advanced training was still covered in the original cost.

Now however this advanced training is to be paid for by the cadet. This in my eyes is a change to your contract. Going on a flexi contract was not, but paying for your type rating is!!!! Is there not some legal avenue you can pursue? I really think BALPA should investigate this. How can they just change the course structure and therefore cost.
If you went to OAT and they turned round and said, nope, changed our mind you owe us £7G for the IR, we have decided you need to pay for it again all hell would break lose. Why is this any different????

Locarno, mate I feel for you and all the others. I would strike to help you (if we could - i hope we can but lets face it we probably can't!!) and I will bloody well strike to protect the T&C's of all current EZY FO's because this sure as hell is going to ruin them! That we should be able to do!

You bought and paid for a service. Without negotiation what you paid for has changed. Dramatically. I cannot see how this can be legal. Get your contracts out and get legal advice. If you are a BALPA member get them on the case.

[SEAMASTER]

Double the drift, Northern Boy is speaking with first hand experience, where you I feel are ploughing ahead with youthful blinkers thinking that the prospect of a WHOOPING £30 k salary after three years for flying a 90t passenger jet is a good deal, suppose it does sound ok to a young inexperienced whipper snapper like yourself !! I just hope your not writing a similar post as Northern Boy in 5 or 6years, maybe then and only then the penny will drop, who knows eh !

Locarno, why do you seem so shocked at the changing of your terms and conditions, wake up boy that is the nature of the industry, the fact that you are entering it after signing up to the most ridiculous deal in the first place puts you in a position where you have very little if anything to bargin with, your problem dude ! If you would have been patient and waited for a better opportunity to come along you would now be discussing loosing chocolate hob nobs, fruit and cheeseboards on the flight deck, which is a slight reduction to what i signed up to but its manageable. I hope you find a way to survive on your pitance of a wage in the attempt for you to achieve your goal but being party to the overall demise of this profession I have no sympathy and you deserve all you get, good luck with your insolvency !!!


SEAMASTER.

[Locarno]

I'm really sorry to see that you're so full of hatred for us cadet pilots.

Is this really the beginning of the end? Regardless whether you hate the cadet scheme or not, this could be the beginning for FOs flying for minimum wage - the previous scheme was fine!

[silverknapper]

Poor kid crap doesn't cut it here Locarno. Neither does the "how dare you" attitude.
Ultimately most of you signed up for the easy option which you thought would get you in to the RHS of a jet without any real effort or experience. You didn't read the small print, nor have any regard for the fact you were signing up to a level of debt which would be unmanageable given an economic downturn, which lets face it was forecast and bound to happen. Think about it. £60,000 in debt from day one. CTC exists for one reason - to make money. They aren't doing it for poor kids to let them become successful as Locarno puts it. And I still maintain that CTC encouraged people to take up aviation as a career who wouldn't have been bothered before. I have seen it myself, guys who have said "I wouldn't be doing this if I was paying for it." Well guess what, you were. And if you all agree to this what do you think they will do to you next? Why not just bend over now?

As an aside a colleague of mine taught CTC guys PPL's in NZ a while back. He says they fell into two distinct categories. Decent blokes who wanted to do well and become good pilots, and arrogant sods who actually told the instructors that they would be flying jets in 2 years, what would they be doing?!!!!!

What did your contracts actually state? Could someone post the words here? If it stated your £60k paid for a CPL/IR and a type rating then you may as well all club together and get a lawyer. Out of curiosity did any of the whingers from CTC join Balpa as student members? If you did then I agree with them getting involved and trying to help you. If not then you're on your own.

[northern boy]

And so you see, children, some things were never meant to fly. Like the Ostrich and the northern Dodo.

Leo, I have been flying commercially for the last 15 years.

Could it be something else keeping you ground bound? Attitude perhaps?


Nope its the economy stupid. Plus the fact that every company is rushing to emulate yours.

Being hysterical doesn't help your case much. If the CTC deal is too much to bear, don't accept it.

Please tell me exactly where I was being hysterical? And as I have already pointed out why would I need the CTC deal? Do keep up.

If you feel the need to point the bone at something at the root cause of your misfortune, point it at the unions who, for decades, have sought to create a virtual cartel of whom could fly and who not.


The company I currently work for does not have a union. As for unions deciding who flies and who doesn't I am fascinated and shocked that I missed that one. Please provide a link to documentary evidence that unions were in charge of ticket sales or airport security or in fact stood at the gate vetting passengers as they boarded.

Failed to pass stage 1 did you, Northern Boy?

Stage 1 of what? Please refer to my above reply to Mr. Camel and then be so good as to let us know the full extent of your aviation experience including hours, type ratings and current employment.

[UAV689]

I remember when I was at uni and CTC first appeared, I considered it, and thought better of it. Even back then i am pretty sure it said you would get a job 'if an airline needed you'. I have always been cynical enough to think about the worst, and take precautions.

People going into ctc/oxford and et al need to have their eyes wide open to what you get told by them. They are a buisness, they make profit. And in case you havent worked out they make that out of you.

If people are still going to CTC they want their heads tested. Absolutely mental.

To those offered the contact, walk away. Get a job that pays you money, even outside of aviation and walk away. If no one takes up these pathetic offers, these offers will stop appearing. Whilst people continue to accept, guess what, next year those offers will worse, and when you get to the expensive salary (3rd yr) you aint gonna fly, your too expensive, bring in the next zombie. Simples.

To those that are about to go to a CTC open day, dont. Cancel it. Dont even go to the assesment. Dont listen to them say 'now is a great time to train', its not. When the supply demand curve then is able to equalise out start training, there should be better terms then. Its all about market forces. Its not down to them to stop taking people on, they are just trying to make money, its down to YOU not to apply. To use your better judgement and not give them more profit.

Yes i know you want it. Its all you have ever wanted to do. Same with me. I first went solo 10 years ago and I am still working towards getting training completed, debt free. Then when you pass it all without the likes of ctc you can be proud you worked for it, are debt free, and will be able to take a lot more options with no debt. A 30k job with no debt aint that bad, but with 100k to pay off..thats another matter. Taxi to beachy head anyone...

[Locarno]

I can't see what the need for such flaming etc is - I mean sure, I took the "easy" route, and sure - I'm in a lot of debt right now. But I don't see whats so wrong about that - I've always wanted to be a pilot, at the time, I couldn't see anyway I was going to turn down the deal that CTC offered.
Just like I can't see anyway I'll be able to turn down this deal if it gets offered to me.

Anyways, I realise I've just opened myself up to bitter flaming so I'm not going to say anything further on the matter, but I will continue to read and hopefully we'll be able to work something out.


I'll finish by saying : Sure, there are a few people who say to examiners "I'll be flying jets in 2 years" but the vast majority have a genuine passion for aviation and decided this would be the best route into that career. Whether or not we made a terrible decision to do so is irrelevant, we did do so.

[average bloke]

Locarno,

There are many pilots who started with no money (and a lot of us still don't have much today, but that's another story!). But to take out a massive loan to pay for something you clearly did not research properly or make contingency plans for is just stupid I'm afraid. There are many who have worked long and hard over many years to become pilots. We now see our salaries eroded and career options more and more limited, in part, although by no means exclusively, by people who wanted the quick way in. Without debt you have options, with debt you're stuffed - sorry, but that's life. Hope it is a lesson learnt.

Personally, I would like to see some form of legislation stating minimum hours to fly large public transport aircraft to strangle these schemes. I don't want BALPA to step in and 'save the day' either.

I remember once going for an interview as an instructor at FTE. There were all these young kids wearing sun glasses at the bar, singing along to the theme from Top Gun. It would have been funny if it wasn't so pathetic. A lot of them were destined for a Dash 8 at the time, not an F14. Needless to say I didn't take the job.

[silverknapper]

How many hours did you have on your PPL before you started with CTC Locarno?

[lpokijuhyt]

average bloke:

are you serious...there were cadets sitting around the bar singing their little lungs out to Kenny Loggin's "Danger Zone" and "You lost that love and feeling?" I'm gonna laugh and then promptly vomit.

[UAV689]

"You lost that love and feeling?"

More like

"You lost your credit rating,
he's lost his parent house
and now its gone, gone, gone"

sorry a bit in sensitive. back to work now.

[Locarno]

What exactly is so wrong with paying for an education, recieving the education, doing the internship/apprenticeship/line training, then starting in the career.

Thats the way it's been forever with things from medicine to hairdressing to bricklaying to becoming a lawyer.

Why should we have to work our way up slowly to finally getting paid 10 years after training. At the end of the day, it's just a job.


And to whoever asked : Towards my PPL? About 5 or 6? Tops?
Did have a few hundred gliding though.

[average bloke]

All true I'm afraid. Like the lyrics UAV :ok:

What exactly is so wrong with paying for an education
Nothing, but it depends on your interpretation of 'paying'. To me, paying is using MY money to purchase something. Unless we are talking about something which has an intrinsic value (such as a house), which can be liquidated if you cannot meet the mortgage payments. A CPL/IR does not meet those criteria.

[FLEX/MCT]

I have been quietly reading this thread in the background since it began but after some of the recent posts I feel I have to comment.

I am a former CTC cadet who started training in summer 2006. At the end of my CTC course (early 2008) I was taken on by a UK charter airline, type rated and after my 6 months of line experience given a permanent contract. After 18 months on short haul buses, myself and my fellow CTC joiners have just completed our A330 conversions. I consider myself extremely lucky to be where I am.

There are hundreds of stories like these from previous cadet courses. They were the norm up until the events of late 2008. They are shoved down your throat at CTC open days and throughout selection. They are hard to ignore, big images of smiling cadets in A320s, 737s, 757s. Big shiny jets.

Sometimes they even bring these similing faces along with them, all dressed up in uniforms of blue and gold.

I have every sympathy for those guys currently floating in the holding pool. When they joined and heard these (then current) stories, who with a dream as strong as learning to fly would not think "I wish I was doing that"? I know I sat at selection and thought the same! And with the 100% placement record it seemed acheivable.

It is hard to ignore the sales pitch for flying training coming from people who are professionals at selling flying training. These cadets signed up for a product that could no longer deliver, but would not find out until it was too late. Contrary to some on this forum, I do not blame the victims of this 'slavery'. If I had joined two or three months down the line from when I did I too would be in their position without a doubt.

I do have a couple of points to address prior to continuing.

Firstly, the allegation that cadets can't do the job properly. We are all LPC/OPC qualified to the same level as everybody else. I have heard of many incidents including go-arounds, double FMGC failures and even engine failures on rotation that have been handled correctly by cadet pilots and with the competency of the crew praised by pilot management. Yes there have been mistakes too, but even experienced pilots make those and I have seen no evidence to suggest cadet pilots are a liability!

This allegation that we are somehow 'jumping the queue' is offensive. "Well thank you for the offer of the RHS of an Airbus with Thomas First Monarch Airlines, but I really think I should take two years instructing on Terrorhawks, 2 years flying Senecas for an air taxi firm and another three on Dash 8s before trying my luck on jets, thanks". I bet you dont hear that one much. I am not belittling the self improve route - I love flying and was willing to take whichever route was neccessary to achieve my goal and sometimes I do think I missed out on the turboprop experience. But I took the best option available to me and it has paid off handsomely.

As for CTC people being arrogant, yes there are always a few of those in any group of people. Can you honestly say you have never worked with people you thought were cocky so-and-sos? I found the vast majority of CTC cadets to be some of the most hardworking, get-your-head down people I have ever met. Given what you sometimes have to put up with during training (repetitve crushing of self-confidence anyone?) they achieve a high level of performance and are probably pretty well prepared for the bile being vented towards them by certain parts of the aviation industry to boot!

Anyway, back to the topic in hand, who would I blame for the current threat to Ts and Cs? Well I am not privy to the full details of this contract as most here probably aren't either. I suppose easyjet created the employment conditions making it possible by breaking the previous tradition of employing CTC guys after their first six months and CTC have pandered to this, first with flexicrew and now with this new, abhorent scheme. Brookfields and Ryanair could also be considered acountable.

I know a lot of you were geared up to view CTC cadets with suspicion or even hatred prior to these events and feel even more so now, but I ask you to please direct your anger at the people actually responsible for this mess, ie. the companies that have created it, not the poor guys (and their ambitions) who are their puppets.

p.s. usual apologies for the long post!

[UAV689]

Thats the way it's been forever with things from medicine to hairdressing to bricklaying to becoming a lawyer.

Not really, doctors get uni funding via goverment, as do lawyers.
Hairdressers, brickies, etc do apprentiships paid for by companies! I have never met hairdresser or brickie in debt through training, yes they get paid peanuts in training, but they dont pay to train.

People that join CTC/oxford are a bit like those karoke superstars on x-factor. Instead of writing a song/forming band/putting in effort etc all hopes are pinned on wh*ring themselves out in the press and to simon cowel to skip the queue and get a xmas number one.

Come on rage against machine!

[average bloke]

It is hard to ignore the sales pitch for flying training coming from people who are professionals at selling flying training
Just the same as it is hard to ignore the slick pitch from a time-share salesman? Come off it. People get into these things because the heart takes over from the head. To then blame someone else when it goes wrong is absurd. Do you pity those fools you see on television living on worthless unfinished building sites in Spain, who tried to get into the buy to let market on easy credit? Easy credit is to blame for the current situation at Easyjet. I used to have to go and see my bank manager for an interview just for a £50 overdraft - not that long ago either. I just hope that the credit dries up soon, and people have to use their intelligence and skills to achieve their goals, rather than a biro. Sign here master Bloggs :ugh:

[greywind]

As usual there's a lot of name calling and s**t slinging going on, but well I guess people are passionate.

I especially like -

You didn't read the small print, nor have any regard for the fact you were signing up to a level of debt which would be unmanageable given an economic downturn, which lets face it was forecast and bound to happen.

Would that be the same economic downturn which people working in the banking industry hadn't predicted? Oh right yeah, that would be the one, that happened about after I and plenty of others started at CTC?
Personally I did read the small print, there was no guaranteed offer of a job, I knew that and I am now fully prepared to declare myself bankrupt when HSBC come knocking accept the consequences. But looking back now the level of lending was irresponsible and should never have been offered without the guarantee of a job at the end. I am just glad that my loan is on an unsecured basis and cannot believe that there are those who are now entering the scheme with loans secured on parents property, but that is a decision that is theirs to make.

However whether you agree with what has gone on or not it may still effect everyone within the industry so just sitting back and revelling in the problems of current CTC cadets will do you no favours if these kind of changes start to have knock on effects for other peoples contracts.

[UAV689]

i bet ocean finance are going to have a booming year this year...

maybe their ad's will get rid of the ugly over weight in-breds and replace them with Easy crews sitting round on a sofa saying how their life is great since the consolidated all their debt into one carefree payment.

please please please jokes aside, refuse this deal. We all want a jet job bad but if there is one motto to live by its

"never take sh*it off a c*unt"
UAV689 15 Dec 2009.

[silverknapper]

Locarno

You contradict yourself:
What exactly is so wrong with paying for an education, recieving the education, doing the internship/apprenticeship/line training
Is at odds with:
Why should we have to work our way up slowly

By definition doing an apprenticeship means working ones way up, learning at every stage. Being paid incrementally more as you go.
The second quote I feel sums up your attitude. That you feel entitled to go straight to a top paying job with no effort or hard work. And I get the impression there isn't much sympathy out there for such an attitude.

If this industry keeps on it's current path I think i will re train. perhaps a law degree. Fly for fun. If CTC start legal training perhaps I could pay them over the odds for my degree then get a job straight in as a QC. Anyone?

I am now fully prepared to declare myself bankrupt when HSBC come knocking
How big of you!!!! Why not stop acting like a wee kid, get a job and stand up to your debt like a man/woman.

UAV, I like the x factor analogy :ok: how very topical!!

[average bloke]

UAV's Ocean Finance joke was good as well. Perhaps he could host his own show - 'Mock The Weak'. :E

[greywind]

How big of you!!!! Why not stop acting like a wee kid, get a job and stand up to your debt like a man/woman.

Thanks for the advice but as HSBC are currently saying that it's pay the full amount monthly or go bankrupt they're not really leaving me much choice with that one.

[blackred1443]

Actually sparksy83 i believe quite a few in the banking industry predicted what has happened, try mervyn king for starters didn't he warn Alistair Darling that all was not good but was ignored. The level of unsecured lending to the entire 'Jerry Springer' and Jeremy Kyle' audience was always going to end in tears.

I must say even the name 'cadets' irritates me, at least MOL calls them contractors. That is what they are, this is cheap labour that is ripping the arse out of T&C in the industry. If you take the risks and you end up RHS of a nice jet on a proper contract then good for you, but if you try to skip the queue and then it falls apart, well such is life.Im all for striking to improve T&C but its a bit hard to fight for people that lose money on a huge gamble and cry when the horse falls at the last hurdle. There are hundreds of experienced and rated guys that are being shafted due to CTC/BRK contractors. So many Thomsonfly, Excel, Virgin etc. pilots without work, for these i feel alot of sympathy. This hopefully could be the end of CTC/BRK contractors as the banks clampdown on easy credit. Good riddance. If you have some passion for aviation then surely you would would be eager to experience all facets of it particularly the less glamourous side like light twin flying,instructing,turbo prop, military not just straight onto an A319/737 with a pair of raybans on your head.

[cjd_a320]

Current debt recovery pricing is 47 to 53 pence in the pound..

Underwater CTC'ers need to get advice and act accordingly.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Right now the only way to achieve that dream we all had is to become a CTC cadet.

Dear, dear, Norman. Been at the eggnog already?

CTC isn't the only place to get ahead. Ryanair will hire 400 cadet pilots next year alone and none of them will be flogging warm coffee and cardboard sandwiches. Some of them may well be based at our newest base of FARO, to be announced by our CEO whilst there tomorrow.

Stop naval gazing, bellyaching and whinging for heaven's sake! Come to Ryanair and leave the Orange people circle jerk themselves to death while you gather jet hours and a command in three years.

[FANS]

Hard to ignore the sales pitch

the level of lending was irresponsible and should never have been offered
(or accepted!)

I've always wanted to be a pilot, at the time, I couldn't see anyway I was going to turn down the deal that CTC offered.


Terrifying. The more they say, the worse this all gets. CTC must be laughing all the way to the bank.

[UAV689]

thats so true about calling them cadets - imagine what the paying punters at the back would think when the captain addresses the cabin calling them a cadet, there would be mass panic if he said

" Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen, I would like to welcome you aboard xfactor air where I am joined on the flight deck by Cadet Stacey. She isnt quite through to the final permenant job contract stage yet, if her landing agrees with you you can call 0845 999 999 and dial 01 for Cadet Stacey to be offered a job"

Maybe that is the answer, all captains when flying with a cadet introduces them as such, perhaps the punters leaving in droves demanding the cabin door be re opened will open peoples eyes.

PS - no disrespect to the actual cadets, I know you all have licenses and 100% qualified - I just think if thats what the company calls you thats how you should be introduced to customers.

[Caudillo]

It's grand to see everybody productively comparing the chips on their shoulders whilst Rome burns and the ship founders. Congrats ladies, excellent situational awareness.

Lambs to the slaughter.

[FLEX/MCT]

Never in the field of aviation has so much bitterness been directed at so few by so many!

"Just the same as it is hard to ignore the slick pitch from a time-share salesman?"

Not really the same is it? Considering there was a 100% placement record until recently - you were practically guaranteed a job.

And as for those of you saying we should experience the other facets of aviation - if thats the way the mop flops, so be it. I was prepared to do that - I think you will find most cadets are - but we were offered a fast track to a great job. I defy any of you to turn such an opportunity down (with the caveat of NOT knowing what was coming just as the current folks did not).

wind check there is no need for an attitude like yours - why gloat? The argument still stands for if they made the wrong decision or not but for gods sake we all make the wrong call every now and again. You dont have to be sympathetic but whats the point in sticking the knife in while people are down??

[UAV689]

the awful thing is in 10 years time this cycle will repeat itself.

All those that are currently getting raped for free will be experienced pilots and lose out to the next bunch of victims when the market again goes tits up.

what goes around comes around - you dont get nothing for free.

[Tiger_ Moth]

Perhaps those lucky enough to be in a secure job at an airline should stop laughing at these cadet's misfortune and show a bit of unity.

Cadets can't stand up for themselves effectively because they are offered deals like this latest one individually and with hardly any time to make a decision and if they refuse it (and a lot of them did) CTC just go to the next one until they have enough people. If it had been offered with a weeks notice to everyone they could have got together and rejected it, but this was catered for in it's delivery to them.

The main culprit here is Easyjet management. CTC cadets are the unfortunate pawns. Easy's game plan is clearly to divide and rule their pilot workforce. They want more and more contractors with ****e ts and cs until the vast majority of their crew are like this with no rights and a million people behind them to take their place if they don't like it.

You pilot's with secure permanent contracts (hard earned or otherwise) attacking these cadets is exactly what easyjet want. You are catering to their plan nicely. You say these cadets are ruining your terms and conditions but it's management who are the architects of this as they know ctc cadets are between a rock and a hard place and can't refuse such deals (although many have actually refused this).

It would be far more effective to direct your energies to BALPA to try to combat this in whatever way possible, rather than having a go at these pawns in the easy management's game.

I think a strike against seasonal contractors would be a good start. Sounds extreme but management are not reasonable people. This would force easy to start offering more reasonable contracts. Only catch is the people with the power to strike are in secure employment, they're ok, so they're not going to: and that is exactly as management have planned it.

I'm sure we will see many more "innovative" schemes to further divide and rule the pilot workforce in the years to come.

All pilots should stand up to this now, together as best they can, instead of making scapegoats out of these unfortunate pawns.

[cTcPilot]

Another option for people is to apply for sponsorship with europes largest regional freight airline "West Atlantic Cargo Airlines" who have a base in CVT and GOT.

Im ex-ctc but I have a few freinds who went through the Atlantic Cadetship and I wish I knew about it before borrowing all that money!

If you go to the Multiflights website (The Airlines FTO)! I'll also have you know Multiflight where selected above Oxford, Cabair and CTC to train the airlines cadets. You must at least have a PPL to apply. One of the chaps I know had his CPL and IR complete before joining. I believe they pay for your training, provide you with a cadet salary and a house while you are a cadet and you will also work within the airline when not training.

Back to the topic, for those who can afford it! Go for the easyjet job! For all the others, I know DHL are looking for low houred guys for there Leipzig base and if you are new with a 73 or 75 TR. Jet 2 are also recruiting! And Ryanscare of course :}

[silverknapper]

To silverknapper, who suggested that someone should "stand up to their debt like a man": have you got any suggestions?
My suggestion would be...........get a job. Hardly ground breaking.
Go work 40 hours a week in asda for £7 an hour. And work evenings delivering pizzas on top of that. Or in a bar. And spend days off working in the local off licence. After all it's what a lot of us did to become pilots in the first place - those of us who really wanted it and not just took a liking to it because it looked easy and hassle free and we got to sit in a nice shiny jet at the end of it and tell girls we were pilots.You just have to have the balls to want to do it and not hide behind lame excuses like the big bad nasty bank gave us the money, big bad CTC are trying to make even more money out of us. Deal with it.
Bankruptcy is the cowards solution. Don't kid yourselves that you are teaching HSBC a lesson, or you are hard done by - IT IS YOUR FAULT.

[UAV689]

i do love all the strike talk, when on another thread everyone slates BA CC for protecting their conditions!

get a job. Hardly ground breaking.

Spot on. for 2 years I have worked for 7 days a week, one proper 'backup career' job and then busted my balls at a warehouse for 2 12 hr shifts every weekend, whilst studing for the ATPLs and still been able to give some sweet loving to the missus when i have a spare minute to keep 'er happy :ok:

it can be done, dont get sold a time share villa, sorry i mean CTC scam.

[flying headbutt]

"There is absolutely no point hiring experienced first officers....." until that is the experienced Captain, keels over, incapacitated, crap weather everywhere, way outside experience levels of our new hire colleague who has suddenly found himself promoted to Captain of said shiny jet which he is now flying single pilot ops! Russian Roulette anyone? Why do you think there is a backlash slowly gaining momentum in the US about hiring practices/experience levels in the airline industry? Unfortunately, it may take a smoking hole to stop the rot :ugh:

[greywind]

My suggestion would be...........get a job. Hardly ground breaking.

:mad: me silverknapper's a genius, don't worry lads you can just get a job!

To service the stupid amount of debt we shouldn't have taken in the first place you need to be earning around £25K a year so that after tax you have enough to give to HSBC and leave yourself with something circa £2 a month to feed yourself and live off. That is well beyond a lot of people in the hold pool, especially when a new employer says so what have you been doing with your past two years?

After all it's what a lot of us did to become pilots in the first place - those of us who really wanted it and not just took a liking to it because it looked easy and hassle free and we got to sit in a nice shiny jet at the end of it and tell girls we were pilots.

It's what a lot of the people who went to CTC were willing to do, but they thought hang on I can join CTC and not have to put myself through all that, wrong or right that's what we did. We paid for all the training that everyone else pays for, we just didn't spread it out over such a long period and we took on what looked like a not very risky debt at the time.

You just have to have the balls to want to do it and not hide behind lame excuses like the big bad nasty bank gave us the money, big bad CTC are trying to make even more money out of us. Deal with it.
Bankruptcy is the cowards solution. Don't kid yourselves that you are teaching HSBC a lesson, or you are hard done by - IT IS YOUR FAULT.

I personally agree with you on this one, we aren't teaching HSBC a lesson, they won't care. I'm sure during this recession they've written off more debt than our training loans.

But all this has made me realise why I haven't been on here for a while, not much constructive happens on this forum without it degrading into a tit for tat type arguments of which I'm currently participating in. I didn't come on here to cry about everything, I knew the risks when I took the contract as did every other CTC cadet, but we're here to say right this has gone to **** and it WILL effect others, so what can we do about it.

[UAV689]

still if you want to pay it off you could - thats life.

People get laid off and make ends meet to pay the rent to keep the roof over their kids and they can do it.

Get a 25k job, get a weekend job, get an evening job. Christ become a train driver, they get 45-50k for working a 4 day week! and i bet if you pretended you might be able to kid yourself a virgin pendalino is like a jet cockpit..:ok:

Did you lot really think getting a 70k loan for a piece of paper would have no comeback? :ugh:

This recession has been going on for over 2 years, i bet you entered CTC just as it started? should of bailed then, it really was obvious what was going to happen, and its going to be **** for the next 5 yrs.

Apologies for thread digression, but it is relevent, as CTC/OAA etc have well and truly caused this along with yourselves, pumped to many pilots into the market place, sold them all a lie.

[blackred1443]

reality isnt quite as glamorous


YouTube - CTC UK Phase Tribute - Bournemouth, UK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_G9LlX8bWU)

[siftydog]

Well, rumour has it that 14 have signed this stinking contract and many turned it down.
CTC and EZY have collectively sunk to a new low in forcing living standards back to the Victorian work house era. But no body forced anybody's hands in signing up to this crap.
It's a little known secret; EZY are kind of desperate for crew next Spring. That's right, they're going to be short, and it wouldn't have taken much collective will amongst the CTC hold pool just to all say no to this - a better deal would have been quite swiftly on the table.
Yes, we all get to the stage where getting that elusive first step on the ladder seems to be all that matters in life - I was there 25 years ago and probably would have sold my grandmother for the break.
But I wouldn't have knowingly dumped on every F/O to ever come to the Easyjet ranks behind me.
I'm prepared to stand by the next man in fighting this deal and turning it around from within, I think it merits a fight on pure safety grounds alone.

But sympathy? Hmmmmm.......

[poss]

Sifty I think the fact that most cadets were unaware of this deal until the guys that signed the contracts had done so plays a big role in this. The cadets offered this contract were given hours to decide, a very clever ploy by management to limit the amount of cadets that found out about said deal. No one was able to stand up and fight for better terms because hardly anyone knew about it. :ugh:

[FANS]

FLX/MCT hits the nail on the head. Why on earth should someone, when presented with the opportunity (and for a number of years it was a near certainty) to get a £40k a year job, say: "Actually, no.

Because the airline world is very cyclical and there's always a reasonable chance that there is no job, and you have to pay back £70k. With no job. And from reading posts, people have had no back up plans whatsoever.

There's a huge difference between servicing £25k and £70k debt and that's the issue. People seem to have signed up and not understood what a huge amount of money this is to earn after tax. It's terrifying.

[Fuel Dump]

Very easy to blame zero hour cadets dreaming about handling a big jet. But there is a very simple way of forcing any airline to stop hiring cadets on unfair contracts: LTCs and TREs, stop doing training! Many of you say you are sorry for them, that BALPA has to react, bla, bla, bla. But you keep going there and being part of the scheme. But I know that this is NEVER going to happen (and Easy management too), because how can you live with 10K less a year? 100K seems so little to me...

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

LTCs and TREs, stop doing training!

.....and good luck with that.

[toolowtoofast]

(cut for brevity)
The job is simply not worth living like a hermit for three years, subsisting on bread and water.

Only 3 years? Luxury

The way I see it, there's three ways to get into a shiny jet. Each carries risks and challenges.

Air Force. Risk of being shot down/killed, have to live in Afganistan/Iraq or somewhere equally attractive. Locked in for 10 years (at least) and spend a lot of that time b*^tching about how hard done by you are.

Actually go to work at a job you don't really like, pay upfront for PPL, CPL, instructor rating etc, ie, work your way up from the bottom. Takes about 10 years from solo to jet - a lot of that spent b*^tching about having to live on noodles and toast.

Fully funded integrated/modular course. Throw many many thousands of $$ into a hole to get the qualification quickly, then spend the next 10 years b*^ching and moaning about how much it costs you each month to repay.

As far as I see, just get on with it, take a red pill, and find something to do.

[Wodka]

What really concerns me is the precedent that is being set here and the resultant damage to the traditional career path.

I am currently para dropping and am really enjoying it. I slogged my guts out working for 3 years to save for the fATPL and simply do not have another £30k to spend on a TR at the moment. I am quite happy to work my way up the ladder and 'do my time' but now am starting to think - is there any point any more? ...am I still just going to hit a wall at some point and be asked for £30k regardless of how much air taxi / turboprop etc experience I might have acquired?

I don't really blame the cadets, they are in a tight corner. I blame the greedy, selfish management :mad: who are only interested in profits and there own bonus. This is not just an airline industry specific problem. It's part of a wider fundamental problem with capitalism which is slowly destroying society as we know it.

Only co-ordinated, specific, firm action from the likes of the CAA, BALPA and highly influential senior training captains will put a stop to this imo.

[Elephant and Castle]

WAKE UP! guys. Is three years of harship and then off to the dole queue while the next batch of CTC hopefuls fills your shoes. Three years of hardship for NOTHING

The whole point of what is happening is that there will be NO jobs at all for experienced guys. There is absolutely no point to this. You may as well go bankrupt now and get started in a new carreer. The alternative is to get shafted and work for nothing for three years and then go bankrupt and look for a new career. You have been conned but some of you seem ever so keen for a second round. Don't you get it? experienced guys cannot get a job anymore; what is the point of suffering to gain experience?

[dragonfly6]

As an ex ctc-cadet who got in and out at the right time, the number of bitter people who like to cadet bash because they took a harder route into the job never fails to amaze me. I fly permanently and the standard/commitment/potential of pilots will vary enourmously whether your a cadet or not.

I do appreciate what CTC/EZY/CAA/RYANAIR are doing to the industry and how BALPA is failing to deal with it properly. I also know its is bad news for the lot of us in the long run. However blaming trainees for the state of the industry shows just how little grip you have on what is actualy going on.

[silverknapper]

LTCs and TREs, stop doing training
Can't see that happening. You lot weren't looking out for the next breed of FO's when you took this offer so why should experienced guys who didn't buy a job ( or attempt to:ok:) put their neck on the line for you? Besides if it did no doubt CTC would start selling LTC packages to unsuspecting fools, only £120k and you'll be a line trainer! Remember that yesterdays CTC cadets could be tomorrows CTC Captains. And this is where the cancer creeps in. Once this starts to happen there really will be no going back. There could be entire bases filled with CTC zombies, all earning a pittance and all able to bend over at a moments notice. And all with so much experience to fall back on from their commands in previous TP or biz jet jobs!!!:ugh:
And once the company achieves this there really will be no hope for future terms and conditions. I wonder what they will start charging for a command course soon?!
there are not enough hours in the day to make enough money to live and pay HSBC working "normal" jobs
There probably is if you want to. you probably need 1k for the loans, then a few hundred for food etc. Live at mummy and daddys. Gross of £22k should be more than adequate. Anyone can earn this if they work hard enough. But then by your attitude John you want it all handed to you on a plate.
flying air taxi etc. before joining an airline, I simply ask why?
Hmmm if you have to ask? Because it is desireable to have some experience to fall back on. Because one day you may be in the LHS ( at what cost!!!!) and have to make hard decisions based on previous experience. Someone mentioned earlier that everyone passes an LPC so is equal. Well maybe we can all fly an ILS on one engine, but if I was a pax on an orange bus and heaven forbid the skipper keeled over I would much prefer the FO to be an ex TP skipper with a few thousand hours on his first day on line than a CTC cadet with 200 hrs in a plastic twin. Who is sleeping in his car because he can't afford a flat because he is paid hourly. And owes more than he earns.
Suffice it to say, if the CTC route had not been available, I would not have contemplated flying as a career
That's a shame. The best operators I fly with are without exception the guys who love flying and couldn't contemplate doing anything else. Other guys spend all day bitching and moaning, and are to a man a crap day out. Perhaps you are best out of aviation altogether. When the chips are down, you're having a long horrible day and you can't afford a pot noodle, if you can't at least take some pleasure in living the dream then you are wasting your time. Go bankrupt and work in tesco. That's easy!!:ok:

[siftydog]

Sorry to blow any little bubbles here, but the only way this will stop is if people just refuse to bend over and take a 5ft dole pineapple up the arse while they dump on all behind them to get fresh mitts on the shiny jet.
In sure BALPA, the senior guys et al will do what they can, but at the end of the day it will only slow it down.

As I've said previously, easy are short of crew right now and will be more so in the Spring; something they're doing for political reasons but that's another discussion.
Despicable as it is, they're exploiting you people because they think they can get away with it and you collectively let them.

Is a bit of time on the outside earning cash aligning for the better paid commuter jobs coming along every now and again such a bad thing?

[ex desert dweller]

CTC are not the only organisation offering TR,s
Try the Open Market or is it Meerkat !!

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

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[AlpineSkier]

I'm not an economist, but everything works in an economic framework.

There is no law that says a pilot will work for "X" or " 0.5 X " or "2.0X" ( when times are good)`

It's in man's nature to bitch when he feels hard done by and brag when he feels top of the heap.

I see that a lot of people here are rather more affected than at the bitching/bragging level but that is what happens in major swings in the economy cf. house repossessions '92- 95

[Pizzaro]

Balpa, an article in the LOG regarding this scandal is not good enough, please start protecting our industry !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards P.

[RED WINGS]

Begs the question, how do they get around the minimum wage??

[oapilot]

Quote:
LTCs and TREs, stop doing training

Can't see that happening. You lot weren't looking out for the next breed of FO's when you took this offer so why should experienced guys who didn't buy a job ( or attempt to) put their neck on the line for you?

Unless something major changes in this industry, there are always going to be newbies willing to take a punt on getting a job through pay to fly schemes.

The more airline recruiters devalue and dismiss experience gained via the "traditional routes" the worse it will get. After all why instruct/fly TPs for crap money when all you will get from from jet operators is "have you got 500 hours on type, never mind, that will be £xx,000 for your rating then".

Similarily, LTC's and TRE's will never stop training because if they do, their employers will soon find someone else who will.

Line captains won't refuse to fly with cadets for the same reason.

Management and the schools, too much cash to be saved/made.

BALPA can't do anything but campaign.

The CAA, well why would they get involved, no ones died yet and there isn't a processing fee involved.

I could go on and on, but that's the problem with aviation, it's always someone elses problem.....:ugh:

[eagle-eyed]

MOR MOR MOR....

If you find you are flying with anyone who is flying when they shouldnt be (fatigue, sickness, or forced into discretion etc) file an MOR...Hopefully the CAA will get fed up being bombarded with paper work.

Ill smile each time i fill one in

[Desk-pilot]

I have to say that this contract is utterly beyond belief - the industry really is going to hell in a handcart faster than I thought.

I was at a major UK airport the other day chatting with our refueller. We got onto the subject of salaries etc and even he was surprised when he discovered that his £30k basic salary was more than I am on as a turboprop F/O - it makes you wonder when the guy fuelling the plane is earning more than the bloke flying it... I wonder if the pax realise it!

Having said that my own turboprop type rating, hotels, uniforms etc were paid for the company and I was paid a full F/O salary from day one of the induction week so compared to the likes of Easy and Ryan they're actually offering a far better deal to low hours guys.

I would strongly suggest however that bright young things should seriously question the merits of an airline career nowadays - in the loco sector it's not glamorous, it's very poorly paid, the employment prospects are awful and the disruption to your social and personal life and sleep cycles is damaging in the longer term. I just can't understand anybody wanting to do it given the way the industry is heading.

I for one support BA cabin crew in seeking to preserve their terms and conditions - the problem it seems to me isn't that they're paid too much but that the rest of the industry pays too little.

Desk-pilot

[Orange Peel]

I was at a major UK airport the other day chatting with our refueller. We got onto the subject of salaries etc and even he was surprised when he discovered that his £30k basic salary was more than I am on as a turboprop F/O - it makes you wonder when the guy fuelling the plane is earning more than the bloke flying it... I wonder if the pax realise it!

1. The pax don't care, aviation is price sensitive.

2. It's market forces at work. I don't imagine that there are many starry eyed teenagers leaving school saying, "gosh, I want to be a refueller". The same cannot be said for the pilot profession. Whilst there are a pool of wannabes waiting to sit in the RHS why pay them over the odds? If they wish to work for crap money that's up to them. Nobody has put a gun to their head have they?

3. The market will eventually pick up and there may even be competition between airlines for employees. People who sign the CTC contract may regret signing up to it. However if they are happy to sign it so be it.

[The Real Slim Shady]

I was at a major UK airport the other day chatting with our refueller. We got onto the subject of salaries etc and even he was surprised when he discovered that his £30k basic salary was more than I am on as a turboprop F/O - it makes you wonder when the guy fuelling the plane is earning more than the bloke flying it... I wonder if the pax realise it!

Between leaving unversity and waiting for my RAF IOT cse to start I worked as a labourer in the steelworks.

My last week's pay in the steelworks was more than my first month's pay in the RAF: however, I had potential to earn substantially more.

That is what you have: potential. The refueller is probably at max increment and can't make anymore money in that job.

[Doug the Head]

That is what you have: potential. The refueller is probably at max increment and can't make anymore money in that job.The problem is that with the advent of the low-costs (unionized or not), this potential has been significantly decreased. :( A lot of low-cost pilots can brag all they want about 'how much they earn' but if you add things like inflation, working hours, benefits, pension, health care insurance etc, and compare it to how much the average pilot was making before the advent of the low-costs, then the picture isn't that rosy anymore.

So far I've mostly observed this thread, but I've drawn two major conclusions out of this whole mess;

1) Slowly but surely it's finally becoming evident that low-cost airlines are not career airlines. Many cadets, perhaps partly misled by the rosy/orange picture drawn on by some PPRuNe participants, probably thought that they were buying a ticket into the fast lane to a steady and lucrative career airline job, but this mirage has now completely disappeared. Welcome to the real world folks!

2) Most pilots (again, unionized or not) who were already working for these low-cost airlines have woken up way too late in order defend T&C's and stop the rot/cancer. Up to a point (and I can't believe I'm saying this) I have to agree with The Real Slim Shady in his criticism of BALPA. During the good years they have done little to nothing to stop these cadet/TRSS scams from happening, thus allowing the thin end of the wedge to be inserted. I joined on the TRSS scam, and I was always surprised at the passive "just pay the 23k and be fat dumb and happy in a career airline" mentality from my colleagues and also BALPA. Yes ok, I also signed on the dotted line, but at least I tried to fight for change from within, yet nobody appeared interested at the time...

Now it's too late, Pandora's box is wide open and there is little to no leverage during a deep recession to change anything regarding these shameful 17th century working conditions. And I'm afraid it will only get worse.... :ooh:

[One9iner]

Can anyone comment on whether 28k for the type rating is 'competitive.'

From what I've read (I could be wrong)

In the past
1) A wannabe pays CTC over £70k to be trained
2) The cadet is placed with EZY and paid 1k a month for 6 months
3) Is then taken on permanently
4) EZY pay CTC 28k for the cadet/type rating cost

Then the flexi contract came in last year; so then
2) The cadet works on a temp contract and is paid £x per hour
3) The cadet isn't taken on permanently
4) CTC never re-coup the cost for type rating.

And now, EZY have told CTC they're not willing to ever pay £28k for a cadet again. So...

2)The cadet works on a temp contract and is paid £x per hour
3)EZY pay CTC the 28k
4) The cadet pays EZY the 28k back over x years.

Surely if 28k is not a competitive rate for the cost of a type rating the initial cost of training needs to be cut.

i.e.

1) Cadet pays CTC 70k - 28k : 42k
2) Cadet is placed on temp contract with EZY
3) EZY pay CTC 28k
4) cadet pays EZY 28k back.

I won't hold my breath.

[Tonka Toy]

You may want to have a chat with the SFO. They may want to have a chat with you.:E

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Now it's too late, Pandora's box is wide open and there is little to no leverage during a deep recession to change anything regarding these shameful 17th century working conditions. And I'm afraid it will only get worse....
Bull**** Doug. Have you seen the demographic of pilot demand versus predicted supply over the next 10 years? This industry is always cyclic, and an upturn will follow this particularly brutal recession in due course, as surely as day follows night. Supply outstrips demand for now, but that situation will reverse, and soon too. When it does, airlines will need to rethink their terms and conditions in order to attract and keep the best people. It's only seniority lists that creates dead wood, career first officers and an enormous logjam of other union-protected flotsam to gum up the works. The sooner the BA's and Aer Linguses of this world vanish from the scene, so much the better.

That in turn will free up the venture capitol needed to fund new airlines and equipment that provide real service and value for money, jobs, profits and futures rather than the surly, menopausal frumps at BA who seem maniacally determined to have "Christmas Strike of '09" as their valediction. Good riddance to them.

Don't be such a Cassandra, Doug. Better days will come. Happy Holidays to you.

[Caudillo]

airlines will need to rethink their terms and conditions in order to attract and keep the best people.

Which only include a small proportion of the pilot workforce - trainers, postholders, the deepthroat phonecallers. Given that most individuals can add no value to the business (yes, no matter how big the coronary you may be cultivating over the latest delay), the rest are entirely replaceable as long as they don't drop the ball. If I don't crash, you don't crash or someone who's paying doesn't crash, it makes no difference except to the payroll.

With you 100% on the seniority lists though. It's completely regressive - ask the Japanese. Unfortunately pilots are by and large unimaginative and myopic, like generations of new Americans, they'll look to pull up that drawbridge once they're safely inside.

[landmark1234]

"However you dress this up, this is a grotesque abuse of young pilots and constitutes the worst terms and conditions that I am personally aware of in the history of commercial jet aviation in the UK"

Have you seen the brookfields/ryanair contract? Very similar, though still worse actually. That's clearly what Easy have based this on.

[RED WINGS]

Pay more to attract tallent!!! Dream on they will chip away as much as they can get away with in the name of the great credit crunch, when the upturn comes airlines will make huge profits but we wont see any! The shareholders will be happy though!:ugh:

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Poor deluded soul. You just don't quite grasp the dynamics of supply and demand. Never mind, it understands you.

[RED WINGS]

Well history will show!

As an aside, I wonder if the flight schools still spout the out cry for pilots line to?

[HundredPercentPlease]

LHC is an oft inebriated old captain, relaxed in his ivory tower with his rare-few contract who is on a pay-per-anti-union-post scheme from the hand inserted below that wiggles his lips.

But on this rare occasion he is correct.

[The Real Slim Shady]

100, close but no cigar.

Leo is neither old, nor oft inebriated: he simply has a taste for quality not quantity.

PS And he is right more often than not!

[Alexander de Meerkat]

More revelations to come on separate thread - you heard it here first.

[turbine100]

Perhaps the MPL should be run by CTC to reduce the initial cost and learn the SOP's of EZY if the cadet is taking on all this debt.

That said, the issue is still with the banks and the poor salary at the end.

I paid as I went for my training and saved as a modular student. Glad I did, reading this thread is very sad.

You would expect after all the training effort and financial investment to get a perm contract that pays them enough to live.

If the bank understood the poor salary why would they want to loan the money out ...

[Superpilot]

Is blood boiling? have the CC said anything this week? are they even twitching? :confused:

[flap15]

...and what happens when the interest rates rise? Oh dear.

[socloss]

Funny how as soon as the OAA/EasyJet deal was offered a new thread focussed solely on that! Anyway Im wondering if anyone has heard if the contract between CTC and EasyJet has been signed yet and if so what exactly it contains???:eek:

I dont really see how CTC and OAA can offer completely different deals to their cadets (although I guess it's out of their hands) because surely EasyJet want most cadets to come from the scheme which generates them more money and we know which one that is.....:ugh:

[veetwo]

On the shuttle bus back to the car park today I ran in to a CTC cadet who was on their last day with the company, as their contract had not been renewed.

Just thought I'd mention that here as it should give real pause for thought to those cadets considering this new scheme (be they Oxford or CTC). As long as current cadets are being laid off, what chance do you really have of securing any lasting employment?

Those foolish enough to pay the money will be used and abused.

V2

[wanabe2010]

employment doesn't exist anymore since they pay to fly.

easyjet= flight club!

[TheBeak]

Veetwo was that cadet on the Boeing or the Airbus?

[veetwo]

Airbus.

V2

[The flying bob]

Was this CTC guy on a flexi crew contract for the winter? If so, it would mean he had done his line training last summer then has been kept on for few days a month over the winter.... And he won't be kept on for the summer????the busiest season!!!!

It doesn't make any sense! I really wish easy the worst when I read that

[TheBeak]

Airbus.

If that doesn't show how much these idiots are taking the pi55 then I don't know what does. So they have a line trained Airbus FO which together with a shortage of FOs they are going to get rid of. The next day they are going to recruit a load of new people willing to pay 34K for the TR and fly for free. It is beyond deplorable. It must be on the border line of legality.

Good video MikeEcho though CTC and OAA are offering two different deals and your video only depicts the OAA deal. What was the comment from 'cadetpilotwebsite'?

[wanabe2010]

It must be on the border line of legality.I bet it' s totally illegal.
ask passengers what they think about, they will answer:"are you joking?"
captains(TRTI) who train these guys are out of law and should be prosecuted in civil court(or criminal court), why?
because the goal of the line training is to be familiar with the line when released as an FO and not to CASH more money for the employer!!!.

regrettably, we must wait for a crash, then the authorities will start to send some guys to jail, and make the law more precise like they did in the USA.

[Nearly There]

Mike Echo, that video is doing the rounds on Facebook to, non aviators are boycotting easy or so they say already, not sure if thats a good thing or a bad thing for aviation as a whole?

[RoyHudd]

Why would it be a bad thing?

[CaptainJim]

Its a vicious cycle but what can you do when despite poor T & Cs and no guarantees people still line up outside flightschools thinking they will be different.

I remember during my modular ATPL groundschool the crap people used to talk about what jobs they could get after receiving their expensive shiny blue license with 200hrs TT. I went to the states & saved a few euros and got an FAA instructor rating which got me hundreds of hours ME time. Then I did the JAA conversions in america & spain for peanuts compared to the UK.

The only guys I knew who got jobs paid for a type with the lowcost carriers or got screwed on a bond. I can't believe anyone could be so stupid as to pay for a type with a random TRTO with no line training included but I heard a few guys I knew who did it.

I understand why people sign rediculous contracts like the new CTC/Easyjet scam its because they have no choice after all the money they have already invested.

I myself paid a similar lowcost airline for a 737 type rating over 2 years ago and it worked out. I am coming up to command now but I fear I too will be replaced in the not too distant future by desperate wannabes. I like flying but I would rather put my efforts to better use if I can't even make 6 figures (euros) as a skipper.

Don't give up if you want to be a pilot just beaware of the risks and don't let some stupid salesperson convince you otherwise. Remember its just a job at the end of the day.

I must admit flying is the worst part of my job because its not real flying. Its button pushing, checklists, paperwork, neverending memos, delays, the fear of ending up in the chief pilot's office and lots & lots of commuting. I fly twice a year & thats in a sim. However when I see my paycheck at the end of the month & when I consider the time off I have its worth it but I'm not sure it will last.:(

[wanabe2010]

I can't believe anyone could be so stupid as to pay for a type with a random TRTO with no line training included but I heard a few guys I knew who did it.

at the time, nobody was selling line training!
same thing with the MCC.

it was paid by the airlines.

what do we see since these last 20 years? I let you answer.

[veetwo]

I happened to swing by the Oxford Aviation forums just to see what spin they were putting on current events (as if there was ever any doubt). The forums there seem to be full of enthusiastic 17 / 18 year old kids who are all but clueless about the current state of things in our industry. They chat away with vigor and excitement about their forthcoming skills assessment as if, once passed, the blues, reds and whites on that 747-400 are but a foregone conclusion.

Of course, none of this is surprising. Think back to when you were 18. At that kind of age anything is possible. The world is yours to mold as you see fit. These 'adults' (who only qualify as such by legal status) have no financial acumen, no business sense and no idea what awaits them when they finish in the Utopian world that Oxford has created for them. In the background, the OAA brand manager makes soothing noises. He is careful not to sound reckless but, nonetheless, his tone strikes an unmistakable note of encouragement - "things will be ok chaps" - is the underlying message. I particularly enjoyed the side swipe at PPruNe when he attempts to blame this thread on someone who has an, "axe to grind with OAA".

During all of this, I couldn't help but imagine a parody of the latest Thomas Cook advert - I'm sure you all know the one, where Mr & Mrs Smith sit front and center while hordes of employees busy themselves painting stars in the night sky and so forth. Close your eyes and you can almost imagine it - the room full of expectant young faces while oxford staff hurry around hanging shiny jets from the ceiling with "welcome to my world" playing gently in the background.

These people are surely the very root of problem. The sales and marketing teams at the big flight schools. No shame, no remorse, just reeling them in on false promises, on 'ifs' and 'buts'. They've been selling it so successfully that one begins to wonder if they have started to believe their own spin. Anyway. I was on the cusp of joining the forums and posting, shall we say, a "different" opinion. Unfortunately before I had the chance to do so I felt overwhelmed by nausea and had to go and be sick.

I suppose my point is that however much the schools blame the airlines, and my god we've heard it enough recently, from the head of CTC in particular -"we can't set hiring policy, we are at the mercy of the airlines', there can be no excuse for luring unsuspecting young 18 year old's on to flight training courses given what the flight schools undoubtedly know - that there has, in fact, never been a worse time to consider being a pilot.

I have every sympathy with those currently looking for work - many of whom couldn't have reasonably been expected to predict the crisis in aviation. However, those currently in the process of signing up to integrated courses (and believe it they really are) whilst undoubtedly bearing some of the responsibility themselves, are having their naivety truly exploited by the unscrupulous management at places like Oxford and CTC.

"Built with you in mind". How very apt.

V2.

[Bruce Wayne]

A full page advertisement in BLAPA's Oct/Nov 2009 rag (Page 4 - inside front cover is BALPA financial solutions).

for OAA....



APPFirstOfficer

birds of a feather flock together...

We are a global leader in professional pilot training and we want to support our airline industry colleagues to make a career change and become an Airline Pilot.

Secure a place on our full time integrated APP First Officer programme in 2009 and you will receive a 3,000 Industry Discount from your course price when presenting your current Airline ID.*

Contact us on +44 (0) xxxxxxxxxxx or visit us online to find out more.


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The very issue where the cover feature with "A Change for the Worse - We reveal how cadet recruitment could change the face of aviation"

Lead line... Worrying trends in training and working conditions mean that what was once a great job for life is in real danger of becoming a seasonal job for students.

and a very quote from that cover feature..


"The problems started when CTC became a supplier offering cheap labour. Airlines are now of the opinion 'why pay when we can get cheap cadets?.'
Monarch Captain


and..

this is the beauty..


"Businesses today have lost any sense of morality, it's all about returns - you're not even a staff number, your a cost number.. it's just pure bean counting."
Lynne Clark, BLAPA Vice Chair



Lot of morality there on who you take the advertising dime of while decrying their competitors for the same actions as the advertiser.

[captplaystation]

If indeed they have carried the ad as you say one could say that.
I hasten to add that PPRuNe was never slow to take the Air 0'Leary shilling either (where has that pesky yellow & blue banner ad gone? ) but then they are "independant" Ha !
Either a major lack of communication between those in charge of advertising and those who decide the politics, or just a major piece of two-facedness. Certainly as a minimum inept, right on up to mercenary.

[will fly for food 06]

"Please comment / rate the following video. The more ratings the more chances it will appear on the homepage to be seen by the world!

YouTube - Pilot abuse by easyJet.wmv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RmaaPMDAYo) "

I found this video a while back from the US regards pilots and pay.


YouTube - So You Want to be a Regional Airline Pilot? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RayMaswju1A&feature=rec-LGOUT-exp_fresh+div-1r-2-HM)

[Bruce Wayne]

If indeed they have carried the ad as you say one could say that.
I hasten to add that PPRuNe was never slow to take the Air 0'Leary shilling either (where has that pesky yellow & blue banner ad gone? ) but then they are "independant" Ha !
If indeed they have carried the ad as you say one could say that.
I hasten to add that PPRuNe was never slow to take the Air 0'Leary shilling either (where has that pesky yellow & blue banner ad gone? ) but then they are "independant" Ha !
Either a major lack of communication between those in charge of advertising and those who decide the politics, or just a major piece of two-facedness. Certainly as a minimum inept, right on up to mercenary.



captplaystation,

oh indeed it's there. As anyone who recieved a copy of "The Log" can evidence for themselves.

Pprune and BALPA are not the same animal.

One is an open public forum structured towards a platform where Professional Pilots and to an extent the public can discussion aviation and aviation related matters.

The other is a pilot union that recieves its income from its members to represent the union base and to protect the terms and conditions of its membership.

Inept as minimum, right on up to mercenary... include cynical as the middle ground.

[TheOldBloke]

Well..my next door neighbours Son has been accepted on this scheme. It will be interesting to see what the outcome of this will be with his parents stumping up the *dollars*. He is now packing his bags..I was hoping to do a lot more ILS/VOR approach practice simulations with him over the winter months..I guess I'll have to do them for myself again! You can't question his tenacity as he went to the USA to get his first step on the professional ladder...at considerable expense also. Please also consider that when a student comes out of university they have substantial debt, so maybe in the eyes of the aviation students..it is a debt worth having. We in this day and age, ( we, the society), encourage students to inccur debts for education. Us Oldies would turn in our graves at this thought..but times have changed.

[TheBeak]

Tell him he is a stupid :mad:ing :mad: from me will you Old Bloke? (You can decide what the censored bits are as long as they are four lettered and rude.

And I think you'll find he is doing it through Oxford and not CTC - the give away is the:

his parents stumping up the *dollars*.

[sidtheesexist]

Agree Beak - these guys must be told in the bluntest possible terms the role they have in degrading ALL OUR Ts and Cs by continuing to prostitute themselves in this manner..............SELF RESPECT for Gawds sake

[fastjetpilot]

What other choice do they have? If they didn't accept this offer someone else would, and they would still be jobless . The ONLY reason they would not accept this offer is to avoid backlash from YOU. To them, they're screwed if they do, and screwed if they don't. Give them a break.

If you want to remove prostitution maybe you should shoot the pimps.

[fischerflyer]

they would still be jobless

They still will be jobless. They dont get paid, they have to pay 35K for 75hrs of 'work'. Thats the point! :ugh:

[TheBeak]

fastjetpilot by name only clearly. Go put your Raybans on, button on a couple of gold bars onto each shoulder (next to your massive chip) and spend mummy and daddies money. The sentiment of your post is meaningless, hollow, weak and lightweight drivel.

[sidtheesexist]

what choice do they have???????????????????????? Are you serious??????? They've a 44 to the head yeah?????????????? Give us all a break - I'll say it again but anyone who signs up for these deals is DIRECTLY contributing to the degradation of all OUR Ts and Cs. If you and they are incapable of seeing that well, quite frankly, you don't deserve to be a private, let alone, commercial pilot. :ugh:

[wanabe2010]

Royal Air Maroc (RAM) is now doing the same. Fly free for the first 500h, then go out!

RAM: "but Sir, you ave now 500h, you can work for Easyjet"
Crying pilot: "well, EasyJet told me the same thing, I can work for you!!!"

RAM: "Get out of my office, you get what you paid for!"

[fastjetpilot]

Beak,

You are a hypocritical halfwit. You critisize me on this post for sticking up for CTC cadets, saying they have no choice in what they do, yet in the OAA thread you say;

"And let's not confuse the CTC deal with this disgrace of an Oxford deal - I am talking about the situation that Oxford trainees are choosing to be in."

Implying that OAA cadets have a choice, yet CTC don't. So which is it? Do CTC cadets have a choice or not? Then you go on to talk about spending mummy and daddies money. WTF? Wrong thread again mate. Get your facts right. CTC cadets had unsecured loans and did not need m&d's money. You are either confusing yourself, or just don't have a clue what you're talking about. FischerFlyer - you are also in the wrong forum.

As for your insults towards my name, you know NOTHING, let me say that again, NOTHING about me. I am not, have never been a CTC cadet, have never owned a pair of Ray Bans (I wish I could afford to look like a ponce) and have more than "a couple" of gold bars on my shoulders. Maybe instead, you should look towards your own name, and start polishing the beak of your fancy dress pilots hat.

Back to my post, you say it's meaningless drivel. Go on then, there are hundreds of cadets intrigued by your amazing foresight. What other choice do they have? ****Tumbleweed**** hmm thought so...

Maybe instead of spending all day on prune venting your anger at people who you feel are stealing your job perhaps you should be doing something worthwhile to update your CV with. Maybe easyJet would perhaps even take a small glance at you then. I just hope I never ever have to fly with someone with your attitude. It stinks.

[TheBeak]

This discussion is pointless, have it on your own.

[The African Dude]

Hi TheBeak,

Just wondering what your background is? Have you been a CTC cadet, or are you in any way associated with the scheme?

It might help us to understand where you are coming from...

Cheers
AD

[Pizzaro]

Supply and demand. Pilots are being made redundant, airlines are going bust. So what sort of people are putting themselves through courses when the industry is in this state ????? (Common sense required), No wonder the airlines are taking advantage of these cadets!!!! Prospective pilots, for pity's sake wait until the market improves a little then start your training, maybe then no-one will have to accept these ludricous T & C's. Someone needs to be advising thes people before they stump up the cash !!!!! BALPA ?

Regards P.

[clanger32]

Topslide,
Sorry but as a generalisation, that's horse**** of the highest order. Sure, there are several hundred no doubt whose sanity can rightly be questionned who DID start training during this downturn.

But what about the others who just happened to be IN training when the Maelstrom struck? People like me, who commenced training in probably the best ever environment for recruitment of low hour pilots and finished right in the thick of it? Bear in mind my former/current career is in the city with probably the one single organisation that you'd bet seeing this coming and WE didn't see it at the time I started training.

Don't get me wrong, I haven't stooped to join these schemes, but a catch all statement implying that all who HAVE signed up must have started their training in the current economic environment is plain daft.

[fastjetpilot]

Topslide

People in CTC's holdpool now, started training in Autumn 2007. CTC at that point had a 100% placement record, with eJ, BA, Jet2 and many others. They were growing quickly (maybe too quickly) to match requirements from those airlines, and offered something that opened up places to people who previously were unable to afford to train as a pilot. The money was unsecured. It was pretty much a guaranteed entry into the RHS of a jet. At that time there was no real evidence that there was going to be a recession.

ANY of you that say you would have turned this down are lying through your teeth. Get off your high horses and make a change instead of slagging these guys and girls off. Why would ANYONE work their arse off in some crappy job and complete their CPL over 5 or 6 years when this was an option.

The one thing I do agree with is that you would have to be a complete idiot to start training now or in the last year.

By getting what they deserve I hope you mean a FO job with some airline, whether it's TP or Jet and the oppurtunity to show people like you that actually, they make a dam good go at it. However, I think what you actually meant was bankruptcy, demoralisation and possible depression, suicide and in the future a crashed jet.

[TheBeak]

Hang on a minute, I wasn't refering to CTC trainees I was refering to the 20 Oxford trainees, one of whom was mentioned incorrectly by Old bloke on the CTC thread. My response was to him. I have no problem with CTC trainees, they are some of the only individuals who bother to get selected into this industry. What the Oxford people have done is not be selected into the industry however - they have bought their way in for the short term and have no doubt lowered Ts and Cs for the long term.

[fastjetpilot]

Well why didn't you say that in the first place instead of berating me for sticking up for CTC cadets. Engage brain before engaging mouth.

On your point, I agree.

However, I think even CTC cadets parents may have to stump up the £4k +VAT for the privilege of flying for eJ for 3 years, so TheOldMan could still have been referring to a CTC cadet.

[fischerflyer]

I have no problem with CTC trainees

Beak: CTC 'cadets' are made up of the "wings cadets" (who get selected) and the "iCP Cadets" (who just like OAA payout 70K for the course).

So whats the difference? OAA and CTC BOTH have people buying their way into flying....

[Pizzaro]

These schemes are just taking advantage of these people caught out by the recession and they stink. The only winners are airline accountants !!!!! It's just selling the industry down the pan. Lawyers ,doctors just wouldn't put up with this, aren't pilots professionals as well ????!!!!!

[R T Jones]

The iCP cadets, when they finish their cpl/ir then have to pay for AQC. Once that is completed, if they are of sufficient standard they go into the CTC ATP cadet holdpool, not the CTC Wings cadet holdpool... At least as far as I'm aware, that is how it works.

[BigNumber]

You cannot make a living doing a job others are willing to pay to do.

What is so hard to understand?

[FRying]

Whaaaat ? That is THE most ridiculous assertion I've had the chance to come across in a long time.

Bignumber, do you think no one would like to be a trader ? Well, guess what : they make millions. And it doesn't take any more skills to be a trader than to be a pilot, I can assure you ! Do you think no one would like to be an EZ manager ? And guess what : they make loads of money. And it doesn't take any more skills to be an EZ manager than to be a pilots, I can assure you !

[TheBeak]

And it doesn't take any more skills to be a trader than to be a pilot,

It takes zero skills but it does require a VERY, VERY thorough selection which starts with having the necessary academic qualifications which is generally nothing less that a first in Maths, Physics or something equally numerical. To be accepted into pilot training you could be a one toothed, dungaree wearing hick with no GCSEs or A Levels and have parents willing to put their £110000 Ex local authority flat in Hull up as collateral. There is less than no filtration required to become qualified. Sorry but there isn't. As vexed has said, traders make their companies money. Easy managers save their companies money. Pilots are like pieces of machinery, do as they are told and perform or they will be fixed or replaced.

[Night_fr8]

TheBeak
What a complete load of utter tripe comes from you via the keyboard.
Have you attempted the 2 day APP selection at OAA or the Longer selection process from CTC.
I think not, or if you have it is my considered opinion that you probably did not make the grade.
At OAA 30% pass selection on the first attempt with a further 5% upon being invited back for a resit of a failed section.
What you ellude to is "Where's you cheque ? your welcome !!" this does happen in less reputable training establishments, and even now with places to fill on courses and less of the folding stuff available OAA and CTC, do not just take anyone.
Both establishments have reputations to keep and believe its unfair to put a student through a course that they are likely to fail, money does not rule, selection does.

Others
We are not talking Slavery here, just the airlines adjusting to market forces and reducing costs.
EZY has to cut cost to remain profitable and survive, so I ask what percentage of EZY pilots are on cadet schemes, and have they been used in preference to contracted Pilots ?

As for Strike votes, industrial action and Union clout, in this day and age ALL are a means of reducing jobs and cutting the the companies profits to the bone, so ultimately the employer will find it more effective to make redundancies.
Keeping people in work is the name of the game, and if that means pay to fly being used or flexicrew, so be it.
Stay employed, dont rock the boat and wait for an upturn.
Negotiate when in a position of strength, not now when there are hundreds out there waiting to fill you shoes.
There is far too much "I want it now" attitude, wait a while your turn will come.

[TheBeak]

Have you attempted the 2 day APP selection at OAA or the Longer selection process from CTC.
I think not, or if you have it is my considered opinion that you probably did not make the grade.


Now that's funny small pen15, think what you like.

What you ellude to is "Where's you cheque ? your welcome !!" this does happen in less reputable training establishments,

So as I said:

To be accepted into pilot training you could be a one toothed, dungaree wearing hick with no GCSEs or A Levels and have parents willing to put their £110000 Ex local authority flat in Hull up as collateral. There is less than no filtration required to become qualified.

Contrary to popular belief you don't have to do it at CTC or Oxford.

For what it's worth I am bang on the money.

[v6g]

And it doesn't take any more skills to be a trader than to be a pilot,
It takes zero skills but it does require a VERY, VERY thorough selection which starts with having the necessary academic qualifications which is generally nothing less that a first in Maths, Physics or something equally numerical. To be accepted into pilot training you could be a one toothed, dungaree wearing hick with no GCSEs or A Levels and have parents willing to put their £110000 Ex local authority flat in Hull up as collateral. There is less than no filtration required to become qualified. Sorry but there isn't. As vexed has said, traders make their companies money. Easy managers save their companies money. Pilots are like pieces of machinery, do as they are told and perform or they will be fixed or replaced.

+1

Like it or not, pilots don't create value nor do they increase profit. I would have thought most people would understand by now that pilots are sadly just an unfortunate operating cost for anyone wishing to do business as an airline.

[First.officer]

To quote V6g:-

"Like it or not, pilots don't create value nor do they increase profit"

Well, i guess requesting more direct routings, analysing Wx charts for the best winds, seeking out cheaper fuelling downroute, engaging with customers and focussing on their requirements during flight (biz-jet), negotiating cheaper handling and querying invoices and saving money - to name but a few items of the top of my head - well, i believe the above create a certain level of "value" albeit maybe small, and certainly will increase profit for the operation as a whole - or am i wrong and perhaps we should all just not be professionals and accept whatever we're given then V6g ??

[Night_fr8]

thebeak

Your not even near, let alone bang on the money.
In fact your more hot air than a furnace.

I suggest that you spend less time on Pprune and find something more usefull to do.

[FRying]

-1 !!!!

Managers don't add any value. Some just crunch numbers which takes the wit of a baker to do it except they're very good at playing with Excel (big deal !!!). Others conduct PR which takes a lot of communication skills (hey, just like a professional purser !). As I previously mentionned on another post, I've been a manager myself in a big corporation and I know what it takes to be one. Some believe they're changing the company. They really think they're it while, in fact, they're only doing what they're told (just like TheBeak asserted regarding pilots. The only difference is they don't have the lives of people in their hands).

Pilots don't do what they're told. They apply procedures. But this job is not (just) about applying procedures, which BTW is not that simple. It's about decision-making, it's about discriminating, it's about hindsight, it's about thinking quickly, it's about keeping cool, it's about prioritizing, it's about responsibility and it's about minding passengers throughout the flight in terms of safety and commercial satisfaction. It's also about abiding by regulatory rules that could send you before a judge (which most manager would never have to face).

Put a lousy, "one toothed dungaree wearing hick" pilot in a cockpit. You'll understand what kind of value added a standard or good pilot brings to an airline. :ouch::ouch::eek: Those boys(girls) you're talking about probably won't pass anything if they're that dumb. The PPL will be the greatest and last achievement. The CPL will be a mountain. The IR will be outerspace. Line training will simply be unreachable and a vague concept.

To be accepted into pilot training you could be a one toothed, dungaree wearing hick with no GCSEs or A Levels and have parents willing to put their £110000 Ex local authority flat in Hull up as collateral.

I'm not familiar with this very specific training programme. But if that is true, our airlines, and Easyjet more specifically, are heading for terrible events in the future. NOT EVERYBODY CAN BE A PILOT, let alone a good pilot !

I get to meet chaps who should have never set foot on an airplane. They simply haven't got the right "hardware", the right IQ, the right wit to fly those airplanes safely. Sure, when all works fine, they can cope. But then you immediately see those who get overwhelmed as soon as the situation gets a bit nasty.

Managers who are ready to put lousy pilots in their airline's cockpits remove value from their airline and should be laid off.

[TheBeak]

requesting more direct routings, analysing Wx charts for the best winds, seeking out cheaper fuelling downroute, engaging with customers

With a PPRUNE name like yours and a quote like the above I think we might have a real, live pilot in our midsts! That's what I meant by perform. They know how long legs take. The flight planning is done for you. Keep coming in behind time and above budget and as I say you will be fixed or replaced.

Your not even near, let alone bang on the money.
In fact your more hot air than a furnace.

I suggest that you spend less time on Pprune and find something more usefull to do.

I am bang on the money. I suggest you get your head in a good book and learn something about the queens English - it's you're not your, you berk.

Managers don't add any value.


No one said they did, they save money though - that's what they do with schemes like this. That doesn't mean I like them but it is what they do.

Pilots don't do what they're told. They apply procedures.

'They follow procedures' is a euphamism for 'they do what they are told.'

Put a lousy, "one toothed dungaree wearing hick" pilot in a cockpit. You'll understand what kind of value added a standard or good pilot brings to an airline. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/shiner.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/shiner.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif Those boys(girls) you're talking about probably won't pass anything if they're that dumb. The PPL will be the greatest and last achievement. The CPL will be a mountain. The IR will be outerspace. Line training will simply be unreachable and a vague concept.


Crikey I didn't mean to set up a tangent for people to go off on. My point was that anyone can train to be a pilot be they poor or rich, black or white, female or male and most importantly thick or clever. That doesn't mean they will get a job but it does mean the bastards will cloud the water of the pool we are all drowning in.

Managers who are ready to put lousy pilots in their airline's cockpits remove value from their airline and should be laid off.

No the lousy pilots that do not add value are the pilots who pay to fly because they can not add any other value - those are the 20 Oxford morons, not the CTC guys and girls (is that clear enough for you fastjetpilot?) Have we gone full circle and are we back on track with the thread?

[graviton]

Before you start correcting other folk’s grammar, and calling them berks, I suggest you put your own house in order.

The word is euphemism!

[clanger32]

Beak - so close, SO close...
firstly - you do NOT need a first in Maths to get into the banks. Far from it. You need luck, a decent education or -and here's the kicker, it's the most important of all - to KNOW someone who can get you in. I've spent my working life in the city - I know of what I speak. Of course, you're also right, that a first from Oxbridge will see a blank cheque land on your desk from most of the banks...but that's not the ONLY way.

You're absolutely spot on that we don't help ourselves by allowing anyone to train. However, be careful here. Oxford, for all their failings DO at least insist on a minimum of 5 GCSEs A-C and DO have (however inadequate it may be) a selection process which a LOT of people fail.

Yes, IMHO, the industry would be enormously helped by at the very least introducing a bare minimum qualification. Name ANY other profession where someone with no GCSEs/O levels can get in and hope to earn >£100k a year. (hope - not necessarily achieve!)

Pilots - sad as it is - do not add much value. They are almost without exception an addition to teh cost base and not much more. HOWEVER....where this industry has lost it's way is in the lack of understanding that they're a vital cog in the commercial offering. A good salesman could bolster load factors and add turnover....but lose the salesmen and the company continues. Lose the pilots and the company is dead....this is the part that has been forgotten.

Pilots are to aviation what Cacao is to Chocolatiers....and somehow, somewhere along the line, this got lost.

[MaxReheat]

'Pilots - sad as it is - do not add much value'. What utter bolleaux! No pilots (or cabin crew) - no airline. Period. Without flight crew the airline cannot function and that is the huge power that we have and collectively refuse to use.

[Haran_Banjo]

Without flight crew the airline cannot function and that is the huge power that we have and collectively refuse to use.

That's true but people can't use it anymore. How many strikes have you seen in the last 5 years ? I couldn't see too many. There are not many options, if you make a strike in a low cost, they remove you and use another one waiting for your position.

[fastjetpilot]

Beak,

May I suggest that instead of making your points, and then saying, "that's it, let's get back on topic," you allow others to voice their opinions without retaliation from yourself. You're drawing a lot of anger and hatred through abuse and what would be called bullying outside of a forum.

As far as I can tell you have yet to come up with a solution, except not to pay to train. Great, well how do we stop the people who can afford to do it, doing it?

As for correcting spelling and then getting something wrong yourself, may I just say... Guffaw....

[5 RINGS]

One said that "Pilots...sad to say...do not add value" or something like that...

I have to disagree...nowadays everyone takes flight safety for granted...but wait for the first disaster related to questionnable competence of a crew or exhausted pilots (or any combination of the two, as for colgan air) and all of a sudden, the public and the regulator will step in and the added value of a good crew will all of a sudden become apparent...once again...

[BigNumber]

I recall seeing a post a while back detailing a dinner conversation with a EZY accountant on this very subject.

This above 'post' as source, TheBeak is quite correct in his analysis of the managerial perception of the pilot work force. Beak is not suggesting that it is desirable, or even accurate, but it does explain why PTF is ubiquotous. Revenue generated from these 'Ruperts' in their 'Gold Bars' is highly attractive and supports the management bonus. Fabulous!!

[clanger32]

Max reheat and 5 rings.... I must apologise, the quote you have both mentioned has actually been misinterpreted due to my exceptionally poor wording. What I meant Is that traditionally a flight deck with a decent experience level would probably cost the company >£150k per year. This is very very expensive when viewed in context of the cost savings or revenue generation it can directly bring. Thus companies seek to mitigate and reduce the cost impact.

What those same companies miss however, very sadly is that actually, these staff members are the one thing that absolutely will stop the business in it's tracks. What's even sadder is that, as max says, pilots seem reticent to demonstrate exactly how important they are to the overall business.

I hope I've cleared that up, I certainly did not mean that pilots offer no value...purely that a pilots ability to affect finances of the company is very small in comparison to their perceived cost. It is a tremendous shame that focus on just how very important they are has been lost.

[Mister Geezer]

why in Germany it's prohibited and not in UK?

Hardly surprising when you look at our (UK) CAA!

[Night_fr8]

When I worked in Germany, I flew with several high quality first officers who had paid for their rating and line training costs (20 DM / hour).
One had no twin rating until he obtained the 737 rating, even having a single IR, which was allowed by the LBA.
The same guy is now a 747 captain.

Easyjet has gone one stage further than RYR and is actively using the income from these cadets to boost revenue through turnover, every 6 months or so another batch, and no guarantee of a job at the end.
RYR has a much better system and ultimately if the student reaches the grade a well paid job at the end.

Those who bleet on here about Easyjet should ask themselves if they had not been given a type rating, and were today looking for a job would they try and put together the money to take a similar job oppourtunity.
Or wait for Flight every week to see if the job section had anything to offer, whilst bemoaning the fact that they were being hard done by as they were passed over, by those with some get up and go.

Incidently I know that there are parents, grand parents and even single parents who are standing guarantee for those who were able to get the cost of the course together, also some cadets have sold their only assets to raise the money required, and otherwise begged and borrowed to make up the difference.
Its these motivated and well selected people who are now starting the courses.

Ask how I know, the answer is simple I know several of those who applied.
IF I had the funds I would have liked to have help some of those who could not afford the course with a loan.
But as many know to get a small fortune in aviation you must first start with a big one, neither of which I have.

[TheBeak]

You are a sickening socialist and are probably trying to coerce argument.

I am going to take this:

Incidently I know that there are parents, grand parents and even single parents who are standing guarantee for those who were able to get the cost of the course together, also some cadets have sold their only assets to raise the money required, and otherwise begged and borrowed to make up the difference.
Its these motivated and well selected people who are now starting the courses.

Ask how I know, the answer is simple I know several of those who applied.
IF I had the funds I would have liked to have help some of those who could not afford the course with a loan.
But as many know to get a small fortune in aviation you must first start with a big one, neither of which I have.

Print it out and wipe my ar5e on it because that's all it's worth.

[al446]

I am going to take this:...............Print it out and wipe my ar5e on it because that's all it's worth.

Your eloquence astounds me.

[Adios]

Troll food deleted.

[TheBeak]

Beak,

I am tempted to write that if you knew you were insulting one of the most senior pilots, if not the top one, in a rather large pan European airline, that maybe you would put a sock in it,

You just did treacle, temptation got the better of you! If he or she is then I congratulate them on the success, I concede that he or she knows alot more than me and I hope he/ she uses his position to help selected others to join his airline and get a chance at this wonderful career. However he/ she seems to think it is perfectly acceptable for people to pay to fly and for people to be selected by how much they are willing to pay. Perhaps he will run a selection at his/ her airline like an auction. Let's make it clear, these forums aren't personal (hence the anonymity) they are here to debate, belittle and celebrate the many facets of our industry - don't get your knickers in a twist.

but you'll never be in a position to learn from them because you already know everything and perhaps also because you can't/won't/aren't going to pay to fly

I am incredibly willing to learn and fully respect that time and experience does make you higher in the pecking order. You are correct that I would never pay to fly however.


Hang on a minute, we are on the CTC forum again - I thought we were on the OAA forum - apologies! I stand by the wiping my ar5e with your PTF words though.

[al446]

What makes any of what night fr8 posted socialist? I would hardly call him a Marxist.

[Adios]

Troll food deleted.

[TheBeak]

His disregard for selection and his open heart towards people of varying financial backgrounds supporting people through their training. He thinks it's commendable that people pay to fly. Why? Probably because it is what his son did after finishing Oxford though I admit I am guessing and I could be way off - I am sure I am. It fits his scenario. Ultimately he is socialist because he seems to believe in this 'shared ownership' of the training and the end result. An example:

IF I had the funds I would have liked to have help some of those who could not afford the course with a loan.


Now I have justified my comment, I don't wish to over analyse the chap as I am sure he is a sound person and this is becoming deeply irrelevant to the thread.

Is that ok?


Art: a superior skill that you can learn by study and practice and observation. Thank you Adios! That aside, play nice - this is only a rumour network - I am starting to feel like a troll with all this nit picking. Forget the character assassinations, as I will, and stay focussed on the important topic shall we?

[Adios]

Troll food deleted.

[TheBeak]

In the UK we call that a metaphor. Now leave it mate, if you wish to chat PM me.:ok:

[al446]

Is that ok?

Nope. You have a more than shaky grasp of politics and I suggest you should only use words you understand. He said he would have liked to lend the money, not donate it which would have been philanthropy or patronage. A socialist would advocate putting it into a collective pot and those with the greatest need have it distributed to them. What he suggests is benign paternalism.

If it's any consolation, I don't agree with his stance either.

[B-HVY]

I am starting to feel like a troll
Starting??? :}

///\\\///\\\///

back to you people, thought you were discussing CTC/easyJet :)

[Callsign Kilo]

Beak

Everyone is entitled to their own belief and those who stand up for their belief often deserve credit. I wouldn't say anyone here would suggest that you don't have an arguement, however the way that you present yours seems to ensure any credibility to that very arguement becomes lost. We have been involved in debates relating to Ryanair and I had often felt, at stages, that the particular points that you made were apt and even commendable.

Unfortunately your tenaciousness causes you to throw insults, name call, generalise, characterise and make assumptions. My personal favorite is your avid love of the English dictionary; bizarre if nothing else! You possibly believe that it substantiates your arguement? However everything afterwards becomes a bit of a struggle, does it not? If you believe so do you ever stop and wonder why?

[One9iner]

Beak, while I do read your comments with interest, I think the level in which you're wording the posts you make, has reached a new low...

I'm interested to know - what job do you do 9-5? Having chatted through pprune I.M. with you and read a few of your posts - I believe you completed OAA training, and now don't find yourself in the RHS. You paid for your training having worked for a friends stock trading business.

In the grand scheme of things, if you don't owe money for the training that you received, I doubt you have a bank after your neck for the £xK that people normally borrow. Therefore you probably don't have a property (yours/parents) at risk. Yet you still come across as THE MOST bitter person who has gone through a major FTO for a ME/IR/CPL etc...

So bitter infact, that it makes me suspicious. Also, you have so much time on your hands to post on Pprune, it make me suspicious. I don't disagree with the solid advice you give here. I do however disagree with the tone in which you use. A tone, which has become disgraceful.

If I had a fATPL, needed a job; needed to reach 1500tt ASAP; on a perm contract, then I would not be spending any of my time in Pprune slating future cadets, and asking people to wipe their sh1t with your words.

[TheBeak]

My opinions are my opinions and I have always offered them with the best of intentions. Most have said they agree with the sentiment and don't like how it is said. I can be blunt - but it's for the sake of clarity. For the sake of impact. It sticks. It's important that it does. I shaln't comment any more, I don't want to aggravate people - genuinely, though at times it has been a mildly amusing bi-product. As for how I can post whilst at work - I have a computer at work and I post in between transactions and have breaks - don't be suspicious and don't be bizarre, you're not my boss. Enjoy your thread, all the best, farewell on this one. :ouch:

[al446]

farewell on this one.

If I thought such an entity existed I would thank god for that. That's the second thread he has retired from in the last couple of days, other was re Manchester a/p.

[wanabe2010]

Its these motivated and well selected people who are now starting the courses.Its these motivated and well selected people who are now starting the courses and WILL be standing very soon on the side walk with mommy and daddy after being kicked out by a motivated airline like easyjet who took their money by telling them they will have NO MINIMUM hours.

wooow, no minimum hours...!!! here my cheque!

[TheBeak]

That's the second thread he has retired from in the last couple of days, other was re Manchester a/p.

You are a terrible liar - I have never commented on any such thing and haven't 'retired' from any threads in the last few days. Please paste a link so we can all see my 'other comments' on Manchester Airport. As I said, truly goodbye on this and the Oxford thread.

I have checked your Manchester thread: Roy Hudd is your man and in my opinion he talks nothing but sense - so I am not offended by your inability to read.

[go around flaps15]

His posts can be quite inaccurate at times(I have noticed in a reply to one of mine) so I would not worry too much about that Beak!

[al446]

You are, of course, correct Beak but to brand me a liar is over egging it. A lie is a deliberate falsification whereas this inaccuracy was a simple mistake caused by haste and the same feeling of relief I felt I felt when I read Roy Hudd's last post, so you may blame it in part on the similarity.

Go around, I apologise for any inaccuracies there may have been in past posts, as above I do not seek to distort but if confusion arises due to haste it can be ascribed to passion of argument.

[go around flaps15]

That is a Fair point al446. I am sometimes guilty of that myself to be honest.:ok:

[al446]

Thank you Go around.

[BigNumber]

This has been an emotive thread and the catalyst for many pages of lively debate.

Beak's posts are fueled with passion, often blunt and usually serve succinctly paraphrase what many of us are thinking.

Perhaps if there were more 'Beaks' in this world the PTF cancer that has so divided our creed would not have got a 'foothold'?

I am saddened that the irrelevant sensibilities of a few 'Precious Lovies' has secured an 'early bath' from our most ardent outspoken contributor. Not only does his absence weaken the thread but it dilutes the voice of reason.

I'm off to bleach my hair, get an earring, and book 2 week's in Benidorm for me and 'Beyonce'! I hear that the flights are going to be heavily subsidised this summer.

You might be interested to learn that I have actually met one of these EZY 'Ruperts' ( and his exceedingly proud Dad ); I wasn't disappointed.

[captplaystation]

What happened to Meerkat Enterprises latest thread detailing the "Brookfieldisation" of the CTC "offer ":yuk:

Too much detail ?

Well, if it won't reveal who you are perhaps you could repost it here if it was merely the mods objecting to a 3rd thread on the subject.

How many different flavours of sh1t can these nasty little parasite training establishments invent to please the slimy little beanies running Sleazy jet ? Smells like sh1t / tastes like sh1t/ looks like sh1t, is it likely to be roses ? :=

Another week, another unbeatable "offer". :oh:

[his3dmw]

The meerkat thread was removed at the request of those who have been effected by the new offer, we are considering all options available to us currently and the posting of terms on here potentially compromises our position.

I would like to appeal to your professionalism, and request that you respect our wishes until such time as we can begin to resolve what is a very serious issue.

Regards

[captplaystation]

No probs, hope you can reach an agreement between you, perhaps a mass lack of interest would see them revised upwards, but then again maybe not :sad:

[oates76]

Guys, I am a CTC cadet, and just hope that the current EZ crews see how damaging this all is to their own careers. Maybe not now, but these sorts of contract terms will inch their way up and up until you are all facing similar contracts, unless you do something now. The only power I, or any cadet has in this situation is to pass on the contract, but that means NOTHING. The guys before me and behind me will say yes, as they have no other options aside from going bankrupt at Tesco. And even if CTC cadets somehow managed a united no, EZ would just got to OAA, FTE etc etc etc. You are the only ones with any power in this situation, and I hope that efforts are being made to put a stop to this before it becomes not just a small part of easyJets HR process, but how the entire company operates. I just hope that it is not too late already.

NSF, please don't paint us all with one brush. We very much appreciate the work done behind the scenes, and in no way are all wannabes represented by one outspoken voice on these forums. We really do appreciate that you current flight crew take the time to participate in discussion topics such as this one.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

we are considering all options available to us currently and the posting of terms on here potentially compromises our position.


Why? Because you have been told that the offer is "strictly confidential"? ThieveasyJet and HSBCTC don't want anyone else to know because the offer is appalling and if it is posted on a forum such as this then the pilot community at ezy, and in general, will be aware of it. This means Balpa will also be made aware. If you guys want our help then we need to know what sort of crap the ezy management are trying to pull. Our Balpa reps need facts to work with. Whoever decided to get abusive with the meerkat is letting the rest of the cadets down, because as NSF mentioned, people will stop offering support. It isn't easy to sell cheap car insurance and fight your corner at the same time.

just hope that the current EZ crews see how damaging this all is to their own careers

Don't worry oates, we are all too aware...

[TRon]

Oates,

I don't think NSF was in any way attacking you.

I think we all don't like to see these T&C's. We all know it is not good for any of us. I know getting anything done is going to be VERY hard. I know I will be flying with many of you out of LGW. You certainly won't get a frosty reception from me or any of the Capt's or Training Capts (well maybe a few but you'd of got that anyway ;)). You will be treated the same as any colleague, with respect, dignity and you can actually pick the fuel on your sector ;)

I think what we all hate is the game, rather than the player. If I was in your shoes I wouldn't go for it..But that's just me with a different perspective..

There are many on here slating OAA & CTC Cadets but the short fact is if you have the resources then there are always people willing to accept any deal when there are plenty behind you. It is the perfect competition micro-economic model all over. Supply meets demand..

I have a long duty tomorrow. I am taking in my Laptop and I am going to write an email to Andy Harrison on exactly this subject. I am going to send abridged copies it to the CAA, CHIRP, My MP, Transport Secretary and anyone else who will listen. I think this is disgusting and the thin end of the wedge. I just hope some of our EZY colleagues do similar.

BALPA are between a rock and a hard place. The only thing going to stop further degradation is regulation. Sadly, Aviation is a soft target..Anyway here goes..

[rusty_y2k2]

Norman:

I am saddened to hear that... I would hope that both yourself and the venerable Meerkat are able to differentiate between one abusive message and a collective of "dorks".

I would ask both of you to please not write everyone off based on a single such occurrence. Whilst I am hesitant to make excuses for whomever it was, the pressures of the situation in which we find ourselves affect individuals differently. Not everyone is as calm and collected as they would like to be and emotions perhaps boiled over. Even so what transpired is regrettable and for what little it is worth I extend my apology that he was subjected to an attack for trying to help.

The good news is that some are finally willing to make some sort of stand against this rapid race to the bottom and I can only hope that they receive the support required to make it count, otherwise it may end up an exercise in futility and self sacrifice.

If you are in contact with Alexander I would kindly ask you to extend the sentiments of this post to him, as I feel it is a shame to burn bridges over one person's a mistake at such a critical time.

[Fear and Loathing...]

While we want as many people as possible to be aware of our problem, we wish to respect the wishes of CTC and not disclose the full details of the contract while we are negotiating. I extend my thanks to Mr Meerkat and all those who offer support, it is greatly appreciated and greatly needed.

I would also like to offer an apology to Mr Meerkat, however hot peoples' emotions run, being abusive is never helpful. I hope a personal apology has already reached him.

TRon - thank you for your comments, look forward to flying with you, hopefully very soon

[Adios]

It seems to me that the hourly rate offered CTCers through ARL was a lot less than the one offered to the OAA batch. It might be a stretch to assume that EZ pay both contract agencies the same hourly rates, but I'll bet they do. So was ARL pocketing the difference themselves? Let's hope the Meerkat's side by side comparison threads have borne fruit and gave the cadets a bigger lever.

Does anyone know who owns ARL?

Can an original poster remove a thread or is it only PPrune mods that have the power and software tools to do this?

[captplaystation]

Much as many (even NSF) lay (at least partially) the blame on those who choose to accept the cr@p on offer, deep down any one with some imagination can see who the bogey men here really are.
Much as I loathe the regulators for not interfering, really, if the aircraft are not falling out of the sky on a regular basis what can they do ?
And the training providers ? well, they have the choice, sing to the tune & "he who pays the piper names the tune", or be replaced by one who will.
So, unsurprisingly the 1 & only bad guy here is your employer.
They , and they alone, want this, nay , demand it, of OAT/CTC.

The other uncomfortable fact is that the only one who can do an iota to change it, are those who are needed to keep the treadmill running. . . the LTC'S/TRI's.
Totally unreasonable to expect them to act unilaterally so it's down to the whole pilot body to rebel, or live to regret.
You have the perfect future projection there, in yer face, if you look at Ryanair.
No union, far far too many contractors, everyone on different conditions.
You are already too far down this road with German/Spanish contracts anyhow. If you allow the position of F/O to become effectively a "contract" position, next, Capt, next Capt upgrade, next goodbye existing Capt's , next . . . you tell me ?
The existing workforce are going to have to fight the corner of those who cannot fight for themselves , or live to regret it when it comes around to bite them in the ass. They are the only ones who have any clout/ability to rock the boat. The guys on the outside can do nothing, they just want a foot in the door at any price.
The new BALPA chairman is an Easy Capt for chrissakes, WTF is he doing about this ?
Guys & Gals, this is one big bullet to bite, but if you don't you are as fecked as the blue & yellow team.
Yes they are home every night, but every year it gets worse,in every respect, and your situation will too, if you don't stop it in its tracks NOW.



Adios, instigator of thread can delete whole thread, other posters only their own posts.

[Adios]

Captplaystation,

Would it be legal for EZ pilots to call a strike to support these non-union contract pilots? I am not asking you to speculate whether BALPA would ever ballot it's EZ members or to prognosticate the outcome of such a ballot if it happened. Is there any legal basis that a strike could be called? What basis would or could EZ's solicitors challenge the strike on if the ballot were properly and legally managed?

The total fees paid by a batch of 20 of these wannabes is less than £1Million and even a 3 day walkout could cost the company 10-20 times that, while simultaneously focusing the public's mind on the fight.

The regulators won't act unless there is a body count or a public outcry and the public doesn't even know what is going on.
The high street banks will keep doing what high street banks do unless the regulators stop them (see first bullet).
The Training Captain's are paid to train and will be replaced if they don't.
The FTOs want their grads employed instead of someone else's and won't unite to say no to EZ.
The banks of Mum and Dad won't unite because they want Rupert to at least have a bit of money coming in to help keep them and him under their roof (I also don't assume, like some, that all of the wannabes borrowed £80K to get their CPL/IR).
The wannabes who don't need bank of Mum and Dad will be at the head of the queue with nothing but a botched interview to keep their foot off the first rung of the ladder.
EZ will keep doing what they do and this won't be the end of it.

So it really comes down to the flight deck crews and union and what leverage they can muster, though I will certainly understand that they might not want to lay all their cards out on PPrune for EZ managers to see.

[captplaystation]

I don't believe it is simple, & I admit to having very little insight into what "exactly" they could react against.
I could imagine it would have to be an objection to having the crew establishment, and of course the body of pilots available to participate in union votes, diluted by an excess of non easy employed contractors, or some similar objection.
It is a situation that was avoided in Ryanair courtesy of the non union recognised status of the company, and it is a big pill for BALPA and the Easy employees to swallow, but swallow they must, or they will choke on something much bigger in the future.
I agree, the Cadets can do nothing, I don't say they are angels, but they know if they refuse, the next guy in line will say Yes.
Merde alors ! !

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Does anyone know who owns ARL?



Have a guess.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

I have seen the 'offer' from CTC and it is a disgrace. At this stage I will not be publishing the details in view of the clear sensitivities of everyone involved. There are, however, two particular aspects to the offer that alarm me. The first is the threatening tone of the letter which demands a conspiracy of silence. CTC are understandably concerned about bad publicity and a crass attempt at getting everyone to sign quietly and shut up is mercifully backfiring. The second aspect is that the deal on offer is a 3-year one with no guarantees whatsover at the end. That was something never envisaged by anyone when contract pilots were thought of and should be resisted by everyone concerned. There are a few platitudes about being 'well-placed' to pick up any permanent jobs on offer, but that is not worth the paper it is written on in terms of a contract. This is a rock-bottom offer from a rock-bottom organisation, who without awkwardness or embarrassment are royally stuffing their own people.

ARL are a newly-formed company run 100% by CTC to manage this situation and are there merely to emulate Brookfield at Ryanair. To me this is the end of the road and needs to be opposed at every point. My position is very clear. The only pilots flying easyJet aircraft should be easyJet employees. That leaves space for every single guy currently employed under the CTC flexicrew arrangement to have a job with us. We can then go on to discuss contracts, flexible working etc in a reasonable and constructive manner. This 3-year contract is simply a way of circumventing the involvement of BALPA and is clearly grounds for major industrial strife. I trust that any easyJet pilot on a permanent contract can sense the clear and imminent danger to us all. This is absolutely not a time for burying our heads in the sand but for offering our total and unequivical support to BALPA as we seek to bring all these jobs back in-house. I can see grounds for all sorts of different contracts as long as there is a clear way up the ladder for everyone, regardles of the deal they are on. This has become my number one issue with terms and conditions at easyJet and it should be the source of massive concern for every single one of us. This is simply a management flanking action that we must oppose. In the meantime I am delighted to see some steady heads among the CTC guys who are acting as one against CTC and easyJet. Whether it be ATP, OAA, CTC, Parc or whatever else there is out there, the whole lot must be forced under the direct employment of easyJet. Orange airplanes flown by easyJet pilots under the watchful eye of BALPA has to be our aim. We are far from achieving, that but the battle must now begin to achieve this entirely reasonable aim. Anything less will breed longterm catastrophe.

[gyni]

NSF...an excellent rallying call...BUT please tell me why we are not hearing such words from BALPA?! I am fed up of speaking to colleagues who don't read this site being completely ignorant as to what is going on! It is frankly embarrassing to read the most active threads on the company forum. How much more in subs do I have to pay to be shown some LEADERSHIP?!

[captplaystation]

Norm,
I am neither with Easy, nor even with your evil Irish shadow these days, happy in some ways , but not in others.
Therefore, I say this, with in actual fact, no personal interest whatsoever, save that I hate to see us, the pilots, being anally penetrated , and without a trace of lubricant, by so many sh1te schemes dreamed up to satisfy the self serving peurile parasites that somehow mange to classify themselves as "management".
Stop this sh1te, stop it now, Norm, as you assuredly can "Talk the talk" make the step, now is the time to . . . . . .

NOW ! ! Really NOW ! not tomorrow, or next week, or February, NOW BALPA, and BALPA means you guys, the full time Easy employees ! ! Yes Guy You :ooh: Really must WALK THE WALK, or, as I said YOU ARE F UNIFORM CKED.
And as I said before, it doesn't make a blind difference to me, except I have seen it before on the "other" team & I would love to see you guys save yourself.
Please WAKE UP ! !:ugh:

[wind check]

Stop dreaming guys, this is it. The profession is finished.


By the way, who is going to be the manager to replace Andy? :E

[captplaystation]

It sounds melodramatic, or trite, but it isn't.

If a company, the size of Easy , can grow balls and stop this total and utter ******* ( PLEASE MODS LET IT BE) of this profession, there may be some hope for the rest of us.
I have totally lost hope that Ryanair can ever emerge from the swamp, but you guys in Easy have BALPA recognition, and an Easy Capt as BALPA chairman, PLEASE, really PLEASE, sort this, if not , well, Sod it resign from the union, everyone for himself, advice avail from any RYR pilot you bump into. :ugh: But, really, better not, if you can somehow avert that cataclysmic self serving mentality these guys are stuck with. Jeezuz, this really is last chance saloon. . . are you really so f-ckin dumb to believe otherwise ? ?

Standing here, on the outside, it looks horribly like now or never, anyone care to contradict me ? ? :suspect: :=

[Afinehelmet]

Captplaystation,

I'm not with easyjet, or the Irish outfit. And while I agree wholeheartedly with the "message" of this thread, nothing will change.

My experience of pilots (and I've been one for a while now) has shown me that whilst in the main, we're a decent set of chaps, we just do not have the stomach for a fight.

Let's face it, the CTC cadets are not being "forced" to sign any deal whatsoever. Any wannabee, be it easyjet, ryanair, flybe or whoever is in general, a young guy/girl, usually of above average intelligence working hard through university/flight school to pursue their dream of becoming a commercial pilot. And therein lies the problem. They're following a "Dream". And we all know how hard we had to work to get that first job.

So the flight schools/airlines have tapped into this psyche. And put their own slant on it. It's simply called Capitalism. Supply/demand/market forces whatever. Provide a product, be it apples/oranges/pears or an A319 type rating and put a price on it. Lots of people prepared to pay quoted price equals "brilliant, lets put the price up". No one prepared to pay equals, ":mad:, fun while it lasted, lets think of another way to make money".

I sincerely hope that I'm proven wrong. But I believe that in five to ten years time, EZY, RYR et al will have dragged this industry to a low never before witnessed.

But for as long as there is a "demand" there will be a supplier. Unless of course, safety is proven to have been compromised and the authority's end up doing what the pilots should have done years ago. But we lacked the stomach for a fight, or indeed the foresight to see where these pay to fly schemes would lead us.

This situation that the current professional pilot finds himself/herself in is entirely of their own making. The new guys for signing up to these deals and the old hands for not grounding the birds the moment this nonsense started about 15 years ago.

How are we going to fight back now? To me it seems a wee bit like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. But I would love to be proven wrong. I would love to see a well organised campaign of action that would bring about a permanent change of direction.

Over to ALPA/BALPA/IALPA/European Cockpit Association etc

[wanabe2010]

Let's face it, the CTC cadets are not being "forced" to sign any deal whatsoever

Yes they are. If they don't sign, their parents loose their house.They don't have the choice anymore. They don't know yet that CTC will f...k them in the next turn!

[Dan 98]

I totally agree that no one is forcing cadets to sign this deal, however I have to say it is IMO unrealsitic to expect a group of cadets with limited experience of the industry and general life experience to change what Easy, CTC, Oxford, The Aviation Industry as a whole.......are doing. It surely must come down to the experienced pilots who are already employed and have the ability to voice their opinions and concerns to BALPA, CAA, Media etc...

In life it is always easier to blame someone else rather than accept responsibility ourselves. We all know when trying to find employment after training that we would have flown "a cargo plane full of rubber dogsh*t out of hongkong"!! If it meant we could fly!!

Expecting cadets pursuing "the dream" (we all know it isn't) not to sign or accept and wait for something better to come along is no different from cadets expecting experienced pilots to stand up and say NO and not fly another hour until the contract is stopped.

What would have more impact, a cadet saying NO only for the next guy to say YES or: for every pilot in Easy or any other airline to stand together and say I am not flying a single minute unless this sh*t stops, NOW. After a few days of shiny A319's not moving and a loss of millions of pounds what do you think Easy would do ermmmmmm........! A damn site more than if a few cadets say no I'm not signing that.

I have no vested interest in Easy or CTC, I would like to return to the industry at some point if it is viable, I was made redundant from a lo/co last year and currently work out of aviation. It is very interesting looking from the outside in, the aviation industry is sinking to new depths and will continue to do so unless PILOTS stop it, it will just carry on.

It is no different from being at school, what do Bullies respond to, people who do nothing and put up with it (that would be pilots as a whole!) OR people who stand up and fight and say NO!!:ugh:

Pilots need to stop having this huge fear of losing their jobs all the time if they stand up and say no to management and lower conditions, as pilots you really do have the power.

What would happen if Easy go to the wall after a few days of strike action....in protest to this? Ryanair will just pick up all their business and you can all go and work for them instead as the way it is going it would probably be a better deal!!

It really is now or never...!