Oxford Aviation Academy/ATPL training questions (Oxford Prefered)

[jordancrowe]

Hi guys/girls,

I am looking at training at oxford to gain my Frozen ATPL and I was wondering if there are any proffesional pilots who have trained at Oxford who would not mind speeking to me through e-mail to tell me abit about it and what they did to get through the course,

Jordan

[JoeDavies]

I too am in the same position, I too would like to find out what its like. If any of you could possible contact me I would be most grateful
Regards, Joe :ok:

[ford cortina]

I suggest you have a search. Good luck, you and your parents will need it..........:suspect:

[hollingworthp]

I trained at Oxford, you can PM me any questions you have and i'll do what I can to help.

[pilotho]

yep, i recently finished and awaiting TR. Keep these discussions in private as with anything with "oxford" on it, the thread will be taken way off track by gales and no answers can ever be landed.

[mad_jock]

much like an oxford grad in a 10knt xwind :p

[pilotho]

ohhh that's below the belt, senecas are hard to fly you know!

[mad_jock]

:ok: well done for taking it in the manner it was intended. ;)

Have fun on your type rating

[pilotho]

as geoff from oxford would say, "most important thing is to have fun"

[lpokijuhyt]

The only people who know how to fly an airplane come from Oxford! If you have Oxford on your CV, you will get a job immediately after completion. Other pilots will not because all other training is inferior and all airlines know this. Oxford is really neat.

[Flying Scot 1985]

I have just finished at Oxford in November and starting with Ryanair in March. Excellent training the airlines seem to like oxford graduates. I also have all the ground school books cd roms, jaa feedback if any one is interested in

[pilotho]

oh my god, oxford AND ryanair in a thread.

PPRUNE TAF: CB TSVC 240/100G200

no landing now for sure!

[Flying Scot 1985]

Have you got a date for your type Rating????

[Nearly There]

I have just finished at Oxford in November and starting with Ryanair in March. Excellent training the airlines seem to like oxford graduates.

That statement says it all realy.....:ugh:

[mad_jock]

airlines seem to like oxford graduates

nah they like your wallets.

Now go play on the oxford forums where there aren't any hairy arsed pilots to inform you of your error's in thinking.

[Flying Scot 1985]

Bitter, eh!! why are you on this thread. Have you got a job????

[mad_jock]

yep and 2 type ratings which I haven't paid for no bond no debt 4000+ hours and currently in the LHS of a turbo prop.

You can presume the hairy arse.

And current secondary duty is to find 4 * Jetstream 31 and 2 Jetstream 41 crew. And before you ask they ain't low houred wannabie jobs.

[Dane-Ger]

Well, that'll be your PM inbox full for the next 3 months mad jock ;-)

[Flying Scot 1985]

why are you on this thread then

[mad_jock]

Nah I doudt it, available type rated ICAO pilots with ratings are like rocking horse ****e still on certain types.

737 rating you can wipe you bum with its worthless. Which is what alot of wannbies don't understand when they buy a rating on a shiny jet. They have killed any chances of working in what will be the initial growth of the future. You can have 5000 hours on jets at the moment and nobody will look at your CV. 1000 hours of TP time and still have a rating inside 5 years and you can pick up work.

[mad_jock]

Why am I on this thread.

To put an alternative to the bollocks that keeps on getting spouted about integrated giving you any special favours in respect to acquiring that first job or being trained to higher standard than modular.

From my limited exposure to integrated cadets the product is no different to a modular trained pilot in some respects and in other respects its just not suited to the operation. Like it or not you are trained to work in an automated environment with full ops backup and very little personal thinking or airmanship calls. My environment requires someone who can fly a plane manually to high standard, is able to work on their own initiative.

And the most important factor is not be a cocky wee ****e thinking they are better than others just because they paid through the nose for one form of training.

[hollingworthp]

Highland Airways I presume?

[mad_jock]

Nothing to do with Highland.

[12Watt Tim]

I could not have put it better myself, mad jock. Some people do not like being told though.

[JoeDavies]

Incredible, we ask a question for some help, and you manage to kick off an argument. You're meant to be setting an example, so we can look up to you and get help. :(

[pilotho]

told you the wind will start blowing

just keep these things to PM i think from now on

[12Watt Tim]

Incredible, someone tries to give what they think is good advice on an open forum and someone else complains!

Look, there have been some replies from Oxford guys. However you should also now have an impression of the reputation a minority of Oxford graduates have burdened the school with. However Oxford have only themselves to blame, due to the bull they peddle to aspiring students in order to charge them a premium, and due to the priority they gave (give?) to cash cows ... sorry integrated students. There is nothing wrong with Oxford training per se. However everyone I know who went there, integrated or modular, understands why it's graduates have that reputation.

If you do go, go modular and pay one module at a time. That way you remain in the position of strength, as it is the simplest thing in the world to go elsewhere for the next module. Don't let them treat you as an inferior because you are modular, if they try just take your considerable amount of money elsewhere. The UK has a great number of fantastic schools, I could recommend at least four that are nowhere near Kidlington which have produced good pilots I have line trained. They are all cheaper than OAA too.

[pilotho]

I am in no doubt that there are many other great flying schools out there and it is definetly wise to consider all schools.

Personally, I trained at OAA because the facility and the structure is something that sorted me, in that I was able to complete the training without any large gaps. That's just the way I prefer throughout my career in education.

Not going to comment about other schools and not comparing either but the experience of the teaching staff at OAA is really top notch. Not only did I have fun most of the time but I also got tellings off when I wasn't on the par. The guys you will meet will also be your friends for life too.

The money you pay is considerably larger than other schools but I think you should just consider which option would be best for you.

Ultimately, I feel I have been trained to a decent standard but that's because I have chosen to learn at a place that best suited me.

[mad_jock]

Get off your high horses.

The thread I thought was a bit of fun and actually quite a change to the normal OAA threads.

I poked a bit of fun at pilotho he responded in a suitably witty manner :ok:

Then we get an un-truthful marketing lie and again it was responded to with a bit of humour. Which was then jumped on by an arrogant cadet line.

Ultimately, I feel I have been trained to a decent standard but that's because I have chosen to learn at a place that best suited me.
by pilotho is a very valid reason for spending the extra bucks. Not because there is a perceived advantage over any other school/method of training, in either the standard or the job prospects afterwards.

[hollingworthp]

much like an oxford grad in a 10knt xwind

Such a daft policy!

I didn't get to work properly on my xwind landings until I was flying a jet - not the 'ideal' training environment and a definite shortfall in the 'OAA Product'

[sharpclassic]

Flying Scot,

Do you have a job? No you don't. You have a temporary contract and you'll be dumped as soon as you stop paying Ryanair stupid amounts of money to fly their passengers around. Good luck with your debts! :ok:

[silverknapper]

Not to mention a large overdraft!!!
But remember guys:

"Now is the best time to train"

SK

[Nearly There]

Sharpclassic, what a stupid statement

Do you have a job? No you don't. You have a temporary contract and you'll be dumped as soon as you stop paying Ryanair stupid amounts of money to fly their passengers around.


You are paid to fly at Ryanair, you pay for a T/R, amongst other things, but once you are on the line you get paid an hourly rate.

I have been chatting to a potential Oxford cash cow, not metioning names, but they have told him you're 5 times more likely to get a job going integrated with them...sales people who'd trust them

[sharpclassic]

Yes, an hourly rate until they realise they don't need you for the winter and then no work for 2 months as happened to someone I know. I guess you're happy to settle for this unpredictable life then?

[Nearly There]

Yes, an hourly rate Now thats not what you said a few posts up is it?

you'll be dumped as soon as you stop paying Ryanair stupid amounts of money to fly their passengers around. Lets have facts and not off the cuff comments please.

I guess you're happy to settle for this unpredictable life then?No Im not thats why I dont work for FR, having said that in the grand scheme of things its probably the best and only option around at the moment and for the forseeable future, if you can afford to that is. Certainly a better option than buying a speculative T/R

[Whirlygig]

the best and only option around at moment and for the forseable future, if you can afford to that is.If you can afford to have a job with Ryanair? Isn't that essentially (although more pithily) what sharpclassic was saying?

Cheers

Whirls

[Nearly There]

you'll be dumped as soon as you stop paying Ryanair stupid amounts of money to fly their passengers around. Whirls, I read that as if he was implying or under the impression you pay to fly ie buying line hours, when in fact you are paid.
I stand corrected if not.

Either way were drifting away from the original posters discussion starter.

Cheers
NT

[sharpclassic]

Who said I'm a 'he'? Whirl is right insomuch that people are coming into this career happy to accept that they will be paid so little that they are unable to live. Look at the new proposed CTC/easyJet contract. It needs to stop.

[mad_jock]

I didn't get to work properly on my xwind landings until I was flying a jet - not the 'ideal' training environment and a definite shortfall in the 'OAA Product'

Ahh that answers some of the WTF incidents with low houred ones that produced girlie screams and funny smells in quite unchallenging wx.

Now do they teach you anything at all about DME arcs?

Distance from arc to turn onto it is ground speed divided by 100.
Keep the RMI with an airfield beacon roughly sitting at 90 degrees and only correct when it gets to 85 relative then correct to 95 relative (h'mm is that the right way round?)

or

DME speed should be 0 plus or minus 20 knots.

I only ask because I yet to fly with one that could do it. Yet an Exeter trained low hour FO can swing round a DME arc +- 0.1 DME and not break sweat.

[CABUS]

Do FR pay your TR for you if you are an OAA grad. Or do you have to pay them the fees? The normal FR TR works out at about £25,000/£30,000 so it's cool if you go direct to OAA without paying for the TR. Guess if that's the case then going to OAA makes sense.

I really cant see that happening! I think its more debt you are expected to carry. Now, lets get this straight. At Oxford you pay 73K ish for the ATPLf, does this include accomodation, books and all importantly the stripes and ray bans? If so that is a fortune!!

If the market was going well and OAA had a few schemes with Airlines running such as BA, Flybe and Thomas Cook I think they would be a better company to train with as if you worked hard and achieved you would probably get awarded with a job. However, this has almost all stopped and their will be a pile of guys who have excellent CV's and records who would have got into BA and other companies now waiting for the OAA approved old boys network to start moving again. If you attend Oxford now you will most likely be at the bottom of a list of guys who will get the first contracts when they arrive. Not attempting to start another waste of time mod/intergrated war again, if you want Oxford on the record wait until the market is moving again, otherwise go to CTC or modular. Also from my experience of sim rides/checks and numerious jump seats where they are OAA cadets are being trained, they dont seem to be as good as CTC cadets or modular chaps. Before people get stressed this is just my experience. The usual probs are that they dont like to fly visually what so ever offered a visual ask for vectors, even down wind with no other aircraft in the pattern. From what I have seen OAA cadets are good at flying by numbers where as CTC guys are good at both and often have some very good airmanship points set at an early stage. However some of the best guys seem to be moduar!

Agreeing with mad jock I do hope they teach DME arcs otherwise you will have a nightmare in some of the Greek islands one day, Zakinthos especially!

Best of luck with your decision Jordan and I am sure it will all work out in the end.

CABUS

[james1013]

Going back to the original post. As a recent (sept 08) OAA integrated graduate my advise on "how to get through it" would be to allow yourself to believe that you will graduate with 95% JAA average, a first time IR and an excellent final report and that based on that you will be interviewed by an Airline a month after graduating and start a TR the following month. ALL COMPLETE FICTION but a great motivational tool to help you do well on the course and if you're prepared to spend that sort of cash getting your ME-CPL-IR & MCC then make sure you work bl**dy hard or you'll be wasting your cash (that's if it is your cash).

Where did my £60K get me?...
...Since graduating I now work 3 days a week teaching PPL earning peanuts, so with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight I would have been better off saving thousands and going modular. Don't get me wrong, I'm not slagging instructing off, it's a great job just not paid very well and it has given me the chance to really learn how to fly (and not just how to pass a ME-IR on minimal hrs) and build up my airmanship, there are just much cheaper ways of become a PPL FI.

Maybe my Oxford training and qualifications will be used if I land some sort of multi crew commercial flying, so I can't yet say it has been a waste of time and money.

In summary, go into it eyes wide open. If you have the cash and 18 months spare time then it's a free world, go for it. At the end of the day these types of schools are large money making machines, trading off the promise of instant results. Right now and maybe for a while yet those "instant results" cost an additional £30K and buy you a TR and a self employed contract!! :eek: For the skint, cautious or over 30's this instant result just isn't an option (NB: I'm all of the above).

p.s. don't stick any of the above in your bank loan application, it might get turned down, tee-hee :E

[JoeDavies]

Thanks Cabus that will help a great deal :ok:
Joe.

[james1013]

BTW, forgot to mention, we did do a few DME arcs with our instructor in the USA but they are not on the syllabus, he just got bored doing NDB and ILS and there happened to be a few published arcs in the training area. It's just luck of the draw which instructor you get as to whether you do them, I'm sure if you are on top of the NDB and ILS stuff and ask nicely then you'll get the chance to fly a few.

Also did them on the JOT in the 737 sim but we did twiddle the MCP knobs in CMD B to fly the arc so I guess that doesn't count :E (at least I'm honest!)

[taff_lightning]

James1013

Your previous post was bang on, nice to hear :ok:

[hollingworthp]

I was shown how to fly Arc's but it was over in the states during the single engine phase and only because we had some time spare - I don't recall it being on the syllabus.

Certainly another shortcoming.

I was recently able to manually do a raw data teardrop hold entry at the last minute when ATC changed their minds - :eek: the crowd gasps at his masterful control of the aircraft - as the excel FMS is pretty weak if you are too close a fix. :\

As for trying to manually do an arc, I think it would be messy at best.

[clanger32]

RE: DME arcs, Not trying to justify it or not, but I was told that it is never, ever examinable for your MEP or IR and therefore does not feature on the syllabus. That said, I learnt arcing both in the US and also in the UK both on the MEP sims and also the MCC. As others have said, it's purely luck of the draw as to whether your instructor teaches you them or not.

Also agree with HollingworthP ... the rule that stops you learning xwind technique is ludicrous! I remember being stopped flying because a 10kt xwind was forecast....no-one could give a reason why when I mentioned that 10kts was about the minimum you'd ever get in the UK :}

[12Watt Tim]

Having landed a Seneca in a 30-kt crosswind, gusting 40, that is ludicrous! It is a far better crosswind aircraft than the demonstrated component suggests, although you have to be careful in a two-blader.

[mad_jock]

Well it bloody well should be part of the syllabus I have done orders of magnitude more DME arcs than sodding holds. And I have to ask for NDB approach just to keep my hand in a couple of times a month while doing line flights. I think I am the only pilot to ask for one every sim session.

That is actually really shocking that your not taught them as part of the syllabus. They are the main stay of procedural airports for direct arrivals.

I really am shocked that if a OAA cadet knows anything about them it's more out of luck than anything else. So not only do you pay through the nose but you don't even get taught the full toolbox of IR procedures.

I am utterly gob smacked.

[hollingworthp]

I am utterly gob smacked.

You're not really though are you? :}

PS - I think it is a throwback to the Airline focus that OAA have, assuming all graduates end up in an FMS-enabled aircraft that can handle all the complicated stuff for us.

Not saying that I agree with it. But I can see why you may/have had problems with OAA grads getting down and dirty with a 'proper' aircraft and some real flying.

[mad_jock]

I am actually.

A DME arc is a core skill of an IR pilot.

They can be a pig I must admit especially with multiple step downs. And there is plenty of scope for making a complete balls of it and I have done so in the past.

There are plenty of FMC's that can't handle circular nav. I know you can fudge it by creating points every 10deg around the arc. But even so you should at least be able to fly one on automatics in heading mode and not fly everywhere on LNav.

[james1013]

Doesn't some blame belong to CAA/JAA if arcs not taught and tested? Surely it's the authorities who specify the bare minimum hrs and skills required for licence issue from an integrated course? Without opening JAR-FCL it may of course state that any type of instrument approach could be tested but common practice may make it a rarity, perhaps? i.e. if it's in an AERAD then examiner could pick it. So "not on the syllabus" isn't an absolute statement just a reflection of what goes on.

[mad_jock]

I was taught them on my crappy modular course, an hour in the sim and one two engine and one single engine in the aircraft.

And I know they teach them at Exeter because that FO was bloody good at it with 250 hours total and 40 hours on type.

[ford cortina]

To all you Wannabees out there, FlyGlobespan, just went under..... 10 aircraft on the ground, maybe 80 or 100 Pilots out there, so 50 more FO's who have experience on the job market....
Ryanair may at the moment be hovering up Wannabees who can get £20 to £30K together, BUT for how long....
Not that any one will listen to this....
I would really hold off spending Life changing sums of money right now, it is a huge gamble.

:ok::ok:

[pilotho]

mad_jock, I am really surprised that you've found OAA guys whom doesn't know how to fly a DME arc. I remember doing mine on the BHX ILS15 procedure, not only did I do it but my other 2 flying partners were fortunate enough to get our moneys worth and experience drawing an arc on the screen.

As for the comparison with CTC and OAA cadets. I know you're going off from what you saw but then you also suggested the person who started this thread to go for CTC or modular just from what you saw. A sound advice?

I might be a little biased but I just think OAA grads have a reputation for being "young and think they know it all" pilots and I hope to change that opinion.

[BillieBob]

Doesn't some blame belong to CAA/JAA if arcs not taught and tested?Not at all, neither the JAA nor the CAA is that prescriptive. Whilst flying a DME arc is not a specific requirement, there is absolutely no reason why an examiner cannot ask you to fly a procedure that includes one (the direct arrival to ILS 15 at BHX is a prime example).

It is a pretty damning indictment of any professional flight training organisation that it should teach not those skills needed to be a commercial pilot but only the bare minimum required to pass the test. Back in my IR instructional days, we used to teach arcing on both the single and the twin - it was done manually and it certainly was in no way 'messy'!

[mad_jock]

pilotho good for you :ok: you don't come across as your typical cadet.

And I really do mean enjoy yourself on your type rating. The first is always a bit of a ball ache because you never know what's expected and the procedures are all new.

Try and get your hands on the memory items before you get there and get them sunk in a wee bit.

And just remember as you walk out of the sim after your LST, the clock starts ticking down from 6 months when you have to do the whole thing again :p. You get used to it but the first OPC is always a bit nerve wracking.

[CABUS]

As for the comparison with CTC and OAA cadets. I know you're going off from what you saw but then you also suggested the person who started this thread to go for CTC or modular just from what you saw. A sound advice?

I think I have worked out what you mean. I was just saying how I believe CTC are better trained than OAA however they have the new flexicrew system which is not so good BUT Oxford would be very good if the industry wasnt is such a mess as the OAA channels would be working quickly to get cadets jobs. At the moment getting a job will be serously hard so either go mod and save the cash poss for a FR TR and save the 70ishK from oxford (because lets face it most guys pay to go to OAA to fly for BA or such but most end up in FR in twice the debt) or go to CTC where you will enter a holding pool waiting for a job. To clarify each route has its pro's and con's just deciding which is best for you is the key, I went mod and it worked for me.

CABUS:ok:

[pilotho]

Very valid points made and I hope the thread author is able to take some advice and opinions from this thread to help him with his decision.

mad_jock, thanks for the advice, the close it gets, the more nervous I become because like you said, I am not sure what to expect. Like everything though, I make a big deal about something beforehand and then it doesn't turn out to be that bad. Big jump from Seneca to 737 though. Learning the memory items should definetly be my priority for the first couple of weeks.

One last thing, what does LST stand for?

[hollingworthp]

License Skill Test (essentially an IR)

[mad_jock]

License Skills Test - its the one that the TRE signs to pass the sim part of the type rating. It also covers you for your first LPC and OPC.

Its slightly different from a LPC I think because you have to do a raw data ILS. In a normal LPC I think you can do it with the flight director in. I don't know the 737 at all so there might be other differences as well.

Main thing is don't worry about it by the time you get through all the sim training the LST is a walk in the park compared to all the other sessions, there will be nothing new. The first OPC is a bit strange because hopefully you haven't done any single engine work for the last six months. I have to keep repeating to myself "flap 9 gear up" for the go around where as for the twin engine go around its "flap 9" "positive climb" then call "gear up"

edited to add another top tip. Get yourself some ginger tablets and take a couple before your sim sessions. Most TRI/TRE's are pretty good about warning you before slewing the sim. Any hint that they are going to slew the sim eg "I will just position you back to a 8 mile final". Get your head down and your eyes shut. I have never felt air sick yet in an aircraft. But after one tosser driving the sim who kept on slewing it with no warning and a knackard aircon unit I barfed for Scotland.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

There's no difference between a CTC or an OAA cadet.

You're both ****, inexperienced and going to fumble your way around the sky for many months before you gain a modicum of spare capacity.


If you still believe the marketing spin about superior or first class training by the time you leave the school then you have an urgent appointment with the Reality Doctor and his rubber gloves.


WWW :cool:

[x933]

There's no difference between a CTC or an OAA cadet.

You're both ****, inexperienced and going to fumble your way around the sky for many months before you gain a modicum of spare capacity.


If you still believe the marketing spin about superior or first class training by the time you leave the school then you have an urgent appointment with the Reality Doctor and his rubber gloves.



Amen to that! It is getting rather depressing seeing CV's floating in from people that don't meet the minimum requirements for the FD Position we're advertising, but take a punt at it anyway. Do they unlearn how to read at OAA/CTC? Some sort of conspiracy to stop the sheep from applying for jobs that might not make OAA/CTC money...? :E

[demomonkey]

WWW

I'm not sure why people like you need to 'get off' on knocking OAA/CTC/FTE/Anywhere Except Where you Went trained pilots.

Surely above average and below average pilots come out of all schools?

[v6g]

Surely above average and below average pilots come out of all schools?

Not in aviation - everyone's above average.

[shaun ryder]

Very droll!
:D

[Gentle Climb]

'You're both ****, inexperienced and going to fumble your way around the sky for many months before you gain a modicum of spare capacity.'

Christ, a shiver went down my spine when I read this...my ex wife used the same phrases about my 'performance' a few years ago...:eek:

[hollingworthp]

I 'believe' WWW used to instruct at one of the big FTO's so he is almost certainly speaking from a valid position of authority and also probably encounters large FTO grads at work.

I agree that there were some shortfalls in my training provision although I only attended one FTO so I cannot compare with others.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

demonmonkey - I'm not bashing anyone. Given that I used to earn my living as an Integrated flying instructor in Jerez I'm not hostile to the concept.

My comments were not an attack on low time pilots capabilities. The ones I have had the pleasure to fly with have always impressed me greatly. Rather I was trying to prick the marketing bubble which likes to suggest that the training at school X will make you a better pilot than the training at school Y.

Because frankly, every time you hit TOGA, for the first couple of days/weeks/months when you only have a couple of hundred hours you will be holding onto the trailing edge of the elevator by your fingertips. It doesn't matter where you trained or what you paid.

As a wider point to Wannabes - never ever ever suggest you're a better pilot because you went to Oxford/went Integrated/were selected by someone. It always always looks pompous and gets other pilots backs up. Think of it like a public school education. If you did get onto a scheme, pay top dollar at the fanciest Integrated school or whatever then consider yourself the piloting equivalent of a public school boy. Any boast, and slight hint of superiority based on your background will just sound crass to people, the majority of pilots, who didn't do what you did. I made this mistake myself once when I was 17 and being doubly sponsored by the RAF. My flying instructor took me to one side and told me in no uncertain terms that I was no more special than anyone else on the course. He was right and I learned a lesson that stood me in good stead.

He's now the Head of Training at my airline so thats a second lesson all in itself - aviation is a small world so be nice to everyone always because one day you'll likely be glad that you were.


WWW

[pilotho]

at no point in this thread did anyone suggest that anyone is better than anyone else. i knew there will be comments that would be made about integrated grads thinking they are better than everyone else.

i never made this assumption and no one else has on this thread. i really wish people would stop jumping to the conclusion that oaa, ctc or any other grad behave like that. i for one would take constructive advice and opinion but an instant comment to "you're ****" is just frankly insulting.

this thread has been completely blown off course as expected.

[P-T]

I graded from OAA and fully recommend it.

If any of the the first few posters want to PM me then feel free and I'll give you any info you need.

It still amazes me how many idiots are on this forum. (aimed at an individual half way down the page).

I'm not sure if it's me being stupid and not understanding the ironic joke, or maybe these individuals writing have no idea that actual "real" pilots use the forum.

[Whirlygig]

I would always prefer a recommendation from someone who recruits rather than an ex-student.

An ex-student has no other school as comparison whereas a recruiter/ training captain will have seen the products of many different achools and can form an opinion across the board.

P-T, I can guess to whom you are referring and I can assure you that they are more than aware that there are real pilots here given they are real pilots themselves. :hmm:

To summarise ( as I don't believe you've read the whole thread) - some more experienced and qualified pilots are trying to point out that the marketing hype produced by OAA is just that and that the extra price for an integrated course is not worth it and neither are OAA students any better or worse or any more likely to get a job. However, the OAA student or graduate who succumbs to that hype and believes can (I stress "can" not "will") be arrogant enough to actually believe they are better.

Cheers

Whirls

[mad_jock]

Also to add to whirls excellent summary.

Another problem that is seen are people who have never even been to any establishment for actual training.

They go to an open day or read the web site, like what they see buy into the marketing. Its human nature to want to be something special and if you believe the marketing you will be.

Then any form of postings saying different they jump on them repeating the marketing hype and arguing the toss because deep down they really want it to be true.

WWW although being a bit abrupt with his assessment of new on line FO's is actually quite correct. There is not alot of capacity there, never mind spare capacity. If its a nice day with no problems and on a route they have done before and the planets align they just might keep up with the aircraft.

But we have all been their before, different Captains have different ways of dealing with it. I prefer to laugh about it and cut them a heap of slack and debrief later and not nit pick when they start forgetting calls etc when the work load is high. Some though do ride them and nit pick from day one. I reckon the FO's capacity increases faster being not stressed about getting a bollocking all the time for missed or incorrect calls. Anyway its a nicer cockpit environment which I prefer to a tense one.

[12Watt Tim]

DemomonkeySurely above average and below average pilots come out of all schools?Indeed, but that does not mean the school has no influence. The average varies by school, and not necessarily in being better or worse. It varies in balance between a whole set of qualities and in where emphasis lies on a whole variety of factors. Some of these factors can't be improved much purely by structured training, they relate to that nebulous concept known as "experience".