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frogfriday
12th Dec 2009, 21:42
I've just returned to Australia from a nine year stint in a European airline. In my jetlagged fog, I got into a converstation with someone who claims that Jetstar routinely cancels flights if they are "not full enough".

I stated that it couldn't be so... could it? :uhoh:


In Europe, such goings on would be totally unacceptable. At the airline that I was working for it was never a consideration (I was in a position to know).


Is it different here? Please, please, tell me it ain't so! :{

training wheels
12th Dec 2009, 22:52
I'm of the understanding that an RPT carrier can't do that in Australia. They must operate to their schedule regardless of their load.

I suspect Air Asia does it in Malaysia as they have so many retimed flights a day, it's a joke.

airsupport
12th Dec 2009, 23:12
Not sure of the situation at present, but this has happened routinely for decades. ;)

The Airlines are NOT common carriers, like trains and buses, and if they have (had anyway in years gone) a flight going with only a few pax and another flight going to the same destination an hour or two later with plenty of spare seats, of course they would cancel one of them. :ok:

Mind you they would not tell the pax that, would in the olden days blame maintenance or in more recent PC times technical requirements. :eek:

alangirvan
12th Dec 2009, 23:37
http://www.ryanair.com/doc/faqs/EU261_EN.pdf


Tiger got themselves into trouble shortly after they started by cancelling a return flight between MEL and OOL, and lots of people turned up at OOL to be told the flight had been cancelled, and they had all received refunds, and they would get no further help from the airline. Because of public outrage, they did charter a PacificBlue plane that night, and more recently when they cancelled they did offer passengers a hotel room for the night, so they have learned?

In the EU, passengers have EU regulation 261/2004 which they can use to bang the airline over the head with if the flight is delayed or cancelled. At the time of the first Tiger cancellation I read the EU rules, and I thought we could do with similar rules in Australia, New Zealand. But I have been assured that good Aussie/Kiwi airlines would not treat their passengers like some of those nasty European based airlines do, so we do not need heavy handed EU regulations here. No one will be interested until a plane load of passengers are stranded on the Gold Coast with full hotels charging families huge walk-in prices. At the moment all we have to protect passengers is the bad coverage the airline will get in the media when it happens.

airsupport
13th Dec 2009, 00:09
That is a different issue altogether. :rolleyes:

routinely cancels flights if they are "not full enough".

As I said I have seen THIS happen hundreds of times, used to be very common in the good old days. ;)

If we had 2 flights going to the same place within an hour or two of each other, both with not many pax, they would just cancel one and put them all on the same flight.

Sometimes too, but not as often, they would combine flights to different destinations, like for example combining a BNE-ROK-MKY flight with a low pax load with a BNE-TSV flight with a low pax load and have the one flight BNE-ROK-MKY-TSV, although this was more complicated because of crew hours etc.

topend3
13th Dec 2009, 00:47
I don't believe there is any legislation to prevent airlines cancelling flights due to poor loads. Happens often in the regions, particularly over Xmas where in some ports demand is very weak so a flight is cancelled and the pax transferred onto the next service.

Artificial Horizon
13th Dec 2009, 00:51
I don't know what airline you worked for in Europe but I can assure you after 10 years working in the UK my airline used to routinely cancel flights that were not full enough. Especially if it could be consolidated with another service later in the day. We had quite a few long haul services get cancelled from time to time due to lack of interest. Is this not what the 'green lobby' in the UK were demanding and the whole idea behind the loosening of the rules on 'slot' regularity out out LHR at the start of the credit crunch. The new rules allowed for 'tactical' cancellations without putting the slot pair in jeporady. I am certain that most airlines who are able do it.

airsupport
13th Dec 2009, 01:19
I don't believe there is any legislation to prevent airlines cancelling flights due to poor loads. Happens often in the regions, particularly over Xmas where in some ports demand is very weak so a flight is cancelled and the pax transferred onto the next service.

Yes as I said before it is something to do with the fact that the Airlinees are NOT ''common carriers'' (I think that is the correct wording).

They do it regularly (or certainly used to) for that reason and also of course other reasons like a Crew member going sick, or a mechanical fault, but also just for poor pax loads.

The pax basically have no real comeback as long as they get where they paid to go eventually. ;)

I have even seen it many times where they will even divert a pax flight to suit themsleves, I recall one incident years ago when we had a DC9 go U/S in ROK and I had to go up to it, no other flights going to ROK that day, so they just put me on a direct BNE-TSV DC9 flight and diverted it into ROK, they just told the pax after takeoff from BNE that they were diverting via ROK for ''operational requirements". :rolleyes:

frogfriday
13th Dec 2009, 02:34
Huh... thanks. I have a suspicion I've been pretty much spoiled overseas. :)

I was working in the Technical department at one of the larger Lufthansa daughter companies, and even before the EU legislation came in there was not a policy of routinely cancelling flights because they weren't 'full enough'.

If there were enough AOGs that the reserves couldn't cover the flights, then the 'underbooked' flights would be the first to go (if possible, etc etc).

In off-peak times (public holidays, christmas etc) they have a different flight plan - but this is usually known in advance (as it's more or less the same every year). AFAIK they only sell tickets for the available flights.

captaintunedog777
13th Dec 2009, 03:51
You clowns bitch and moan constantly about Jetstar. It wish to congratulate the Jetstar crew for not getting involved in this constant mindless dribble.

Well Done:ok:

airsupport
13th Dec 2009, 04:01
You clowns bitch and moan constantly about Jetstar.

It never ceases to amaze me, some of the :mad::mad::mad: here on PPRuNe. :mad:

The original poster asked a question, and everyone since then has answered politely and NOBODY since then has even mentioned Jetstar. :rolleyes:

All of the answers were just general, about all Aussie Airlines. :rolleyes:

GET A LIFE.................. ;)

ditzyboy
13th Dec 2009, 04:10
Qantas combines flights with low loads. Not frequently but with some regularity. I notice this on SYD-CBR and SYD-MEL particularily.

blueloo
13th Dec 2009, 04:11
Jetstar work on a strict ass-crack and mullet to body odour formula.

If the amount of cumulative ass crack, combined with body odour and mullet hairstyles doesnt reach the predetermined bogun levels required the flight is cancelled.

airsupport
13th Dec 2009, 04:24
Qantas combines flights with low loads. Not frequently but with some regularity. I notice this on SYD-CBR and SYD-MEL particularily.

I am sure they do, as did the Airlines that I was familiar with, Ansett and TAA. :ok:

I am also sure (without having first hand knowledge) that they all still do it, not only Qantas and Jetstar but Virgin Blue, Tiger and any others, IF they have any business sense. ;)

airsupport
13th Dec 2009, 04:26
You clowns bitch and moan constantly about Jetstar. It wish to congratulate the Jetstar crew for not getting involved in this constant mindless dribble.

Now see what you have started. :ugh:

captaintunedog777
13th Dec 2009, 04:57
Yes clever wasn't it. The clown who titled the thread should have named it." Flight cancellation policy in OZ":D

frogfriday
13th Dec 2009, 05:08
Certainly no bitching or moaning about Jetstar intended on my behalf. :suspect:

I'd been using the old "they wouldn't do that, they only cancel flights due to maintenance or airworthiness issues, so stop bashing airlines" routine, and was told I was incorrect. Where else to go to confirm but pprune?

Answers have been very much appreciated! (especially Blueloo's ;)).

Sunstar320
13th Dec 2009, 06:18
Does Jetstar cancel flight with lower loads? Yes.

This only really occurs if the schedule let it work, ie-most point to point sectors, not those via another virtual base then off to somewhere else before making its way back to the start. For instance, I flew a SYD-AVV flight on a Tuesday evening a few weeks back, and did this on purpose as I knew the previous flight which was 1hr earlier would be canceled (too much competition for a Tuesday to even cope now on this route). Mainly due to the last flight being a Avalon based A320 and the previous flight was a Avalon return I knew that it would still go ahead, even with the 30 pax that accompanied me. In fact, I would say the majority of Jetstar's cancellations lie on Avalon routes or to Coolangatta from Sydney.

And here we go, Jetstar's own Simone Pregellio even states it:

A Jetstar spokeswoman said flights were sometimes cancelled for scheduling reasons if they could not be filled but that it was not a daily occurrence.

alangirvan
13th Dec 2009, 06:28
Frogfriday - you will get friendlier answers on Airliners.net | Airplanes - Aviation - Aircraft- Aircraft Photos & News (http://www.airliners.net), especially on the Australian thread, where you could ask the same question.

airsupport
13th Dec 2009, 06:38
A Jetstar spokeswoman said flights were sometimes cancelled for scheduling reasons if they could not be filled but that it was not a daily occurrence.

Yes, as all Airlines in Australia have done for as long as I can remember. :ok:

And that is a LONG time. ;)

Michael Jetstar
17th Dec 2009, 05:25
Jetstar has consistently had the lowest cancellation rates, as a percentage of total services flown, than any of our major competitors in Australia and in international operations.

The Federal Department of Transport provides monthly updates through obtaining data from all airlines regarding their on time performance and level of flight cancellations due to weather and other factors.

Jetstar has since its inception had for the most part the lowest percentage rate of flights cancelled a position the airline is proud of and reflects our commitment to fly the schedule we publish.

By example in the 2009 Financial year Jetstar recorded 0.9 percent of flights cancelled or 556 flights out of 59,538 scheduled sectors and 58,982 flown. (source: BITRE - Home (http://www.bitre.gov.au))

Our major competitor Virgin Blue recorded (2.0 percent)

Reports of Jetstar deliberately cancelling flights for its own gain are both spurious and driven by urban myth it is not the reality!

Michael
Jetstar Customer Relationships

Muff Hunter
17th Dec 2009, 23:15
Michael Jetstar

can you please explain why jetstars otp is a disgrace???

GoNorth
18th Dec 2009, 00:05
Our major competitor Virgin Blue recorded (2.0 percent)

And how did QF go? (2.6%)

Onya Michael

airsupport
18th Dec 2009, 00:38
Reports of Jetstar deliberately cancelling flights for its own gain are both spurious and driven by urban myth it is not the reality!

Michael
Jetstar Customer Relationships

So the Jetstar spokeswoman is a liar. :confused: :sad:

Mstr Caution
18th Dec 2009, 01:13
Is a consolidated flight classified the same as a cancelled flight?

As reported recently: "a robust operating cashflow was maintained with vigorous sales, promotions and consolidating flights."

airsupport
18th Dec 2009, 01:22
And just how does one consolidate two flights, without cancelling one of them? ;)

Wonderworld
18th Dec 2009, 10:38
So Michael of JQ Cust Rels how does that explain the very very large numbers of JQ disrupted pax QF carry on an almost daily basis?

gobbledock
18th Dec 2009, 10:58
Hey Michael, could you please explain the following process for me ? -

Scenario: JQ 989 flying Per/Syd.The flight's departure is delayed 'due to unforeseen circumstances' by 4 hours. Now,the flight,albeit late,will eventually depart instead of at the STD of 2250, it will now depart at 0250. So Operations cancell the flight number,but then straight away rename it JQ 7989. There are nil actual changes to the crew, pax count, nothing has changed except it has a new flight number with a STD at 0250.In fact,it ends up departing at 0248,technically early and it doesn't cop a 'delayed penalty' on paper !!

Hey,like magic,the OTP is NOT affected ! Yes, they receive a penalty of a cancelled flight, but the precious OTP remains in tact ( technically ) !!
Whoops, that secret is now 'out of the bag' !

cnic
5th Jan 2010, 23:11
Jetstar regularly cancel flights on the cairns tokyo run. I have had personal experience of this and have had friends experience this too. I know friends who will fly pixie though moresby now because it is more reliable!. I have been stuck in tokyo for three days because two flights were cancelled and jetstar have hidden in the fine print that they will offer no help in regard to accommodation, it cost me a fortune in hotel and food bills. I do not fly jetstar in to asia for this reason.

dragon man
20th Jan 2010, 04:52
On Sunday the 17th of January i had 4 friends coming Hnl/Syd on Jetstar. The flight was cancelled and they came home on Tues instead 2 days late. When i asked then if they were repaid the 2 extra days accomodation and food they told me that at checkin Tues they were given a voucher for $600 for future travel on Jetstar. The only problem was they said they would never travel Jetstar again. Is this a normal situation or should they get a refund on food and accomodation exspenses?

breakfastburrito
20th Jan 2010, 05:50
9. SCHEDULES, LATE OR CANCELLED FLIGHTS
9.1 Schedules

(a) Jetstar does not guarantee it will be able to carry you and your Baggage in accordance with the scheduled date and time of the flights specified. Schedules may change without notice for a range of reasons including but not limited to bad weather, air traffic control delays, strikes, technical disruptions and late inbound aircraft. Flight times do not form part of your contract of carriage with us.

(b) Before we accept your Booking, we or our Authorised Agents will tell you the scheduled departure time of your flight and it will be shown on your Itinerary and Tax Invoice. We may need to change the scheduled departure time of your flight after your Itinerary and Tax Invoice has been issued. If you give us or our Authorised Agents contact information, we or they will try to let you know about any changes.

(c) If, after you pay for your Booking, we make a significant change to the scheduled departure time of your flight or the flight is cancelled (except where this is due to circumstances beyond our control) and:

* this change means you are unable to use your Booking for its intended purpose; and
* we or our Authorised Agents cannot book you on another flight which you are prepared to accept;

we will give you a fare refund. Unless otherwise required by law, we will not be responsible for paying any costs or expenses you may incur as a result of the changed time or cancellation.
9.2 Changes due to circumstances beyond our control

Where a delay or cancellation is caused by circumstances beyond our control, whether you have checked in or not, Jetstar will try to assist you to get to your destination, but will not be responsible for paying any costs or expenses you may incur as a result of the delay or cancellation, unless otherwise required by law.


Source: Jetstar Conditions of Carriage (http://www.jetstar.com/au/en/travel-info/at-the-airport/conditions-of-carriage.aspx)

dragon man
20th Jan 2010, 08:26
thank you BBM.

Gas Bags
20th Jan 2010, 09:13
I guess if you want to pay the cheap fare you will be offered on a LCC then the t's and c's of carriage will also reflect that ticket price.

If you are worried about paying for your own hotel room then pay the extra for the ticket and fly QANTAS.;)

Eastwest Loco
20th Jan 2010, 09:51
Gobbledock

The flight you mention was moved into a new day and had to be allocated an new "off schedule" flight number as no airline system can handle 2 flights of the same number operating on the same day.

Standard operating procedure for all airlines.

Best regards

EWL

blueloo
20th Jan 2010, 10:20
over the last 3 or 4 days 2 QF 767s have operated to HNL as QF 6403 as Jetstar charters... lucky Big Brother is there to help the parasite sibling takeover its own routes. Its like self induced cannibalisation.

ROH111
20th Jan 2010, 10:49
Jetstar, cancellation one day, useless the next.

What The
20th Jan 2010, 10:59
And you want to know the best bit?

Jetstar keeps the revenue from the passengers DESPITE cancelling their flight and QANTAS mainline absorbs the cost of carriage.

No wonder the JQ cost per ask looks so good.

Jetstar can make money from cancelling flights.

And the Qantas employees keep getting told how unproductive they are. Well Alan, when we're carrying the burden of funding our replacement it's a bit hard to swallow. You are so far being seen as a puppet and a man of many words and no action.

I hope this is not your legacy.

P.S. Attribute the costs and revenue where they belong and stop lying to your people. We are not stupid!

gobbledock
20th Jan 2010, 11:21
EWL,
The flight you mention was moved into a new day and had to be allocated an new "off schedule" flight number as no airline system can handle 2 flights of the same number operating on the same day.
Standard operating procedure for all airlines.

I don't disagree with you on this particular flight. But the practise of rebadging flight numbers due to a delay occurs morning, noon and night, and as I said in my previous post, it is just another deceptive means to fudge the real OTP figures, which of course DOTARS has been too stupid to wake up to.
Then again, another LCC that doesn't use the ACARS system often makes up their own call as to what time they are 'off blocks' and 'off the ground', it's amazing how fudging these figures also can create an impression of better OTP than is actually occurring !
Then again, you can fudge the figures if you are a Legacy Carrier by attaching the Pushback Tug to the aircraft ensuring the tug is parked correctly with brakes applied, then have the PIC release the aircraft's brakes while the Pushback Tug holds the plane still. As soon as the aircrafts brakes are released the 'clock starts ticking' and you can keep the piece of tin on the bay for another 4 hours if you want too !! Mind you, OPS starting smelling a rat and start phoning as soon soon as they see through ACARS that brakes are released but yet 30 minutes later the beast is not yet airborn !!!
Anyway, such is life !

dragon man
20th Jan 2010, 18:52
Further investigation has revealed to me that my friends were intitled to denied boarding compensation of $400 each. However in the event that they excepted a voucher (through ignorance) from Jetstar then their right to a cash compensation is not available, and ill bet they were not offered the alternative. More passengers that the Qantas group has lost.

Animalclub
21st Jan 2010, 00:47
I've been out of the airline business for a few years now, but I'm sure I've seen regulations issued by Australian aviation authorities that states that once you are granted permission to fly scheduled flights within Australia flight cancelations can only be made under certain circumstances. Low passenger/freight loads was not one of them.
Am I seeing things or has this regulation been changed?

Ken Borough
22nd Jan 2010, 00:08
LCCs encourage their passengers to take out insurance as protection against cancellation delay etc for which they will not accept any responsibility. They have moved a cost burden from one industry to another.

I wonder if travel insurance premiums have been affected as a result of this trend?

QF DRIVE
22nd Jan 2010, 01:11
All airlines encourage passengers to take out travel insurance to cover delays out of the control of the airline, out of pocket expenses and missing / lost luggage.

Unfortunately most people don't get insurance and expect the airline to cough up for everything.

All airlines have limits on what they pay and that is listed in the T&C's. Its not specific to LCC's only.