Airlink Accident in George 7 December '09

[Sir Osis of the river]

Apparently an Airlink ERJ off the runway in Geaorge.

Any more info?

Sir O

[Hot Shots]

Saw the pictures on one of the other sites. What the hell is going on at Link? 3rd major happening in the last few months!

[Davidsoffice]

4th this year...146 through a wall, the major Jetstream accident, another one in the dirt in the last week or two and now this. Do you have a link to the pictures?

[Sir Osis of the river]

According to a Statement by Airlink:

The A/c was landing on a wet runway and it aquaplaned off the end. No fatalaties, trauma counseling being provided.

Good to hear all are ok. Now the big question, What is going on at Link? Bad luck, poor training, poor recruiting??

Sir O

[four engine jock]

Very good to hear that crew and pax all ok.
But 4 in one year. Something is wrong. Bad luck can only go so far!!!!

[GULF69]

THIS FROM THEIR WEBSITE:

INCIDENT – SA AIRLINK FLIGHT SA8625 – GEORGE

SA Airlink regrets to advise that its flight SA8625 operating from Cape Town to George has been involved in an incident on landing at George Airport. The aircraft an Embraer 135 ( 37 seat ) regional jet ZS SJX is reported as having aquaplaned off the end of the wet runway. The incident occurred at 11h06 local.

The 30 passengers and 3 crew are unhurt. Airlink has arranged trauma counselling for all passengers and crew. Airport staff and trauma councillors are with the passengers at present.

Weather at the time is reported as being overcast with rain. The aircraft appears to be damaged the extent of which is unknown at this stage.

We sincerely apologise for any inconvenience caused to our passengers
SA Airlink will release further information as soon as it becomes available.

Issued for Airlink
Karin Murray
Tel 011 451 7300

[jv2379]

An SA Airlink plane have overshot the runway when landing in wet weather at George Airport. No further detail have been released.

http://cdn.24.com/files/Cms/General/d/383/a8445cc70bf04471816fbdecf15639cc.jpg (http://www.dieburger.com/Content#1)

[ddd]

Where do they do their simulator training? Are there any of their aircraft's simulators in SA?
Could that be the reason for their bad 'luck' these days?

[32SQDN]

Another pic here:

SA Airlink plane overshoots runway - Times LIVE (http://www.timeslive.co.za/news/article223506.ece)

[GULF69]

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac171/Jetblazt/airlink/1.jpg

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac171/Jetblazt/airlink/2.jpg

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac171/Jetblazt/airlink/3.jpg

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac171/Jetblazt/airlink/4.jpg

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac171/Jetblazt/airlink/47903067.jpg

[ab33t]

Not another one , this is starting to be a concern

[kingpost]

The effects of cost cutting maybe!

[Rudeman]

Surely this is an accident and not an incident by definition. Also claim it happen at 11h06 but the 1st post is 09h46. Spooky !

[jojojett]

I was in GRJ at the time of the accident, having just landed, I can tell you that the runway was definitely not wet enough for "aquaplaning". Also, the ceiling was around 7000ft with NO rain, vis +- 8km.. Interesting...:uhoh:

[Cardinal Puff]

Also claim it happen at 11h06 but the 1st post is 09h46. Spooky !

Yup, that UTC stuff sure is creepy.:suspect:

[Halmar]

Just compare this incident to a previous one:
http://www.pprune.org/african-aviation/117230-sa-airlink-embraer-skids-off-runway-ndola.html

FAGG runway 11 is 2130m long, plenty of space for this plane. I have seen fully loaded 747's landing there personally, being diverted from Cape Town when the fog closes down FACT!

[legacy]

We do know the aircraft landed - runway was wet - and he overshot the runway.
Lets wait for the facts.
:p

[Maurice Chavez]

We do know the aircraft landed - runway was wet - and he overshot the runway.
Lets wait for the facts.
:pWho says it's a "he"?

[dash431]

If it should be confirmed that it was in fact aqua-planing (which now sounds doubtful), how nice would it have been if the old crate had Thrust Reversers fitted...!?

Viva Dee Howard, VIVA! :E:D

[Cardinal Puff]

Lets wait for the facts.

But that would suck all the fun out of it.....

[CR2]

This from Flightglobal Third Airlink accident in three months as ERJ overruns (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/12/07/335877/third-airlink-accident-in-three-months-as-erj-overruns.html)

Third Airlink accident in three months as ERJ overruns
By David Kaminski-Morrow

Regional carrier South African Airlink has suffered another serious operational incident, its third in less than three months, this time involving an Embraer ERJ-135.

The aircraft aquaplaned while landing at George Airport, near the southern coast, while operating flight SA8625 from Cape Town.

Airlink says that all 30 passengers and the three crew members have escaped without injury. The carrier states that the aircraft "appears to be damaged".

Images from the scene show that the jet has travelled part-way down an embankment and come to rest on a road, with substantial damage to its nose section.

Airlink and the South African civil aviation authority identify the twin-jet as bearing registration ZS-SJW. Flight's ACAS database gives this as a nine-year old example last listed as being owned by Coronation Aircraft Leasing.

"Airport staff and trauma counsellors are with the passengers at present," says the airline.

Meteorological data for the time of the accident, which Airlink gives as 11:06, shows light rain and variable winds, primarily from the east.

George Airport has a single main runway, designated 11/29, with a length of approximately 2,000m (6,560ft).

The incident follows just weeks after a British Aerospace Jetstream, operated by Airlink, veered off the runway during take-off from Port Elizabeth on 18 November.

Airlink also suffered a fatal take-off accident on 24 September when another Jetstream lost engine power and crashed at Durban, killing the pilot.

[putt for dough]

How long before this outfit gets shut down?
Surely the writing is on the wall!
They say things happen in three's :suspect:

The worst luck ever or the worst training ever? :ouch:

[spacedaddy]

I'm just wondering if SAA can pull the SA code from them. This is a reflection on the national carrier all over the world. Remember all the agents and the public think its SAA that had another accident.

[line-driver]

I doubt training a major factor here.

the problem is the low level of experience brought about by the treatment Airlink pilots get from management w.r.t. Salaries, FDP's, overall working conditions which makes Airlink a mere stepping stone to bigger and beter aircraft and working conditions, this rubs of with low moral, fatigue and general lowering of flight safety standards due to the overworked and morbid flight crew attitude, and this in turn can lead to pushing the safety envelope either intentionally or unintentionally with results as we see...3 accidents/incidents in 3 months.

[J'Mac]

Had it rained that bad this morning? what was the weather there at the time of the crash?

[oompilot]

Mmmmmmmm:E

[JCO7]

It took only one serious incident for CAA to shut Nationwide down for months which indirectly led to them closing doors. Now Airlink has had 3 accidents in a matter of months and nothing from CAA? Makes one wonder...

[ddd]

Thanks Suitcaseman..... maybe if they had their own simulators in JNB they would do more training?

[Tin-Tin]

Heard that the Capt is an experienced farmer:E

[Avi8tor]

I am glad to hear nobody was badly bent. I was back in SA 2 weeks ago, I am sad to say that company has a problem. Was just reading my own comments I posted after an ERJ went farming in Ndola

P.S. I have to get my 5c worth about the comment:
“Many of us would not even be flying the EMB135 were it not for the astute business skills of Mr Foster!!! Lets give credit where credit is due.”

History will judge RF and his “astute business skills”. Me thinks history will not be kind. It is a pity hindsight is a 20/20 science


That was posted in 2004

[toolowterrainpullup]

Link has possibly grown more than managment can handle, lets remember who is at the helm ... Dear mr JVJ! Where he goes disaster is sure to follow!:hmm:

Look at the photo's on timeslive and you will see that the aircraft registration is in fact ZS SJW and not X.

[Avi8tor]

Dear mr JVJ! Where he goes disaster is sure to follow!I thought the quote was "lawyers" not "disaster", but the sentiment is correct.

[skyloone]

Am not familiar with Airlinks SOP's, but do they have a strict adherance to landing gates to avoid high energy approaches. I hasten to add, I'm not saying this is what it was but I do know a EB135 loaded, near sea level, with a wet runway (Braking action - Good) on speed should present no problems with 2000m? Reported light rain... I'm not familiar with the surface but... hey guys....?

[Jamex]

Airlink Swaziland was placed on EU blacklist so now it seems SA Airlink should maybe also be blacklisted? Oh, thats right. They dont fly into EU airspace. Its OK t kill us useless Effricans! So now maybe they have to officially change the name to SA Scarelink?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

[nugpot]

SA Airlink should maybe also be blacklisted? ....
....
So now maybe they have to officially change the name to SA Scarelink?

Now you are being a little unfair. SAA had a runway overrun in a A320 (IIRC), landed next to 03R in JNB in a 738 and then also the 346 in CPT. Comair had a little excursion in DUR last year, 1time had one in ELS and SAX missed the taxiway at GRJ with a Q400.

Granted, this a/c is a bit battered, but Link is not out there alone......

[nugpot]

Heard that the Capt is an experienced farmer

Tin-tin? Are you referring to Ndola? Same guy?

[underneath the radar]

Its very dissapointing to see that our airlines are having so many incidents or accidents, remembering that what we all talk about is not necessarly all the ones that the caa know about. The majority of the time we dont even know about the other incidents that dont make the news! :rolleyes:

I hope that when the report comes out we can learn from it and try not do it again! A lesson must be learnt or else we will be in deep trouble.

I wonder if the ATC on duty got counselling, that must pretty traumatic to watch an aircraft going off your runway!

[putt for dough]

Any MEL extentions on the aircraft?
Would hate to think they had anti-skid issues and the spanner
said just do us a quick there and back and we'll sort it tonight. :=

[Tin-Tin]

Dear Nugpot

Jip...and he had a little mishap in a Merlin many years ago..
(Ndola incident confirmed)

[Der absolute Hammer]

It does not matter which way you cut the thing up.
Any airline which has three accidents in such rapid succession where the lives of passengers were endangered or could have been endangered should be avoided by the thinking travelling public.
Far from bad luck, Airlink have been most incredibly lucky in the injury and fatality rate attending their safety record. Probably time for passengers to read between the log book lines and vote with their feet?

[120y]

“On behalf of Airlink, I would like to offer my heartfelt apologies to the passengers who were on the aircraft and to those who have been inconvenienced by the knock-on effect to schedules today,” said Airlink CEO & Managing Director, Rodger Foster.

Airlink is assisting the South African Civil Aviation Authority’s (SACAA) air accident investigation unit, which is leading the probe into today’s incident. The investigation will consider all of the circumstances surrounding the incident, including the weather, condition of the runway surface, the pilots’ proficiency and the operational and service record of the aircraft.

“Airlink is one hundred percent focused and committed to the safety of its passengers, crews and aircraft. Airlink was one of the first African airlines to voluntarily submit to the International Air Transport Association’s (IATA) operational safety audit system. It passed both of the audits that it has undergone to date. In addition, Airlink is an accredited airline with the SACAA,” explained Mr Foster.

“We are also cooperating with the SACAA’s in its latest audit of our operational, maintenance, training and recruiting procedures and processes. While we are confident that Airlink complies to international regulation and best practice, we will of course implement any remedial measures which the SACAA or IATA might in future prescribe,” he added.

[Der absolute Hammer]

“Airlink is one hundred percent focused and committed to the safety of its passengers, crews and aircraft. Airlink was one of the first African airlines to voluntarily submit to the International Air Transport Association’s (IATA) operational safety audit system. It passed both of the audits that it has undergone to date. In addition, Airlink is an accredited airline with the SACAA,” explained Mr Foster.


Is that what is known as damning with faint praise?

[Selfloader]

Transport Minister Sibusiso Ndebele is considering grounding SA Airlink's fleet in the light of a string of accidents involving SA Airlink aircraft, reports Talk Radio 702 this morning and TimesLive website.
That aside, watched Colin Jordaan on Etv news last night saying that the accident was just "bad luck" for Link and that these incidents always "come in threes". Maybe, but involving the same ailrine?

[four engine jock]

Airlink was not the one of the first African Airlines to submit to the International Air Transport Association’s (IATA) operational safety audit system. It is a requirement to pass in order to continue operating as an IATA Airline. There are several South African and African Airlines on the IOSA registry.

Below are all IOSA certified Airlines in Africa:

• Air Austral
• Air Madagascar
• Air Mauritius Ltd.
• Air Namibia (Pty) Ltd.
• Air Seychelles Ltd.
• Air Zimbabwe
• Bellview Airlines Ltd.
• Comair Ltd.
• Ethiopian Airlines Enterprise
• Interair South Africa
• Kenya Airways Limited
• LAM - Linhas Aéreas de Moçambique
• Precision Air Services Limited
• S.A. Airlink (Pty) Limited
• SAFAIR Operations (Pty) Ltd.
• South African Airways
• South African Express Airways (Pty) Ltd.
• TAAG Angola Airlines
• TACV Cabo Verde Airlines
• Virgin Nigeria Airways Limited

I think and hope that Airlink gets through this rough patch. A lot of hard working people there.

[Ethiopia]

Airlink Appoints Independent Expert to Review Safety (http://www.african-aviation.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=195:airlink-appoints-independent-expert-to-review-safety&catid=16:africa)

Nice to hear everybody onboard is ok!

[120y]

Airlink – Media Bulletin #4 issued 08 December 2009 10.30

AIRLINK APPOINTS INDEPENDENT EXPERT TO REVIEW SAFETY

Following updates earlier bulletins:

JOHANNESBURG – Airlink has appointed an independent expert to review the airline’s safety processes and procedures following recent accidents and incidents involving the airline.

“Safety and the well-being of our passengers, crew and aircraft is our top priority and it is essential that we always operate professionally and safely. While we are confident that Airlink complies with South African and international regulation and best practice, if there are gaps, then we want to know where they are and we will implement whatever measures are necessary to close them,” stated Airlink CEO and Managing Director, Rodger Foster.

“For this reason, we have approached a recently retired senior SAA expert on airline flight safety, to conduct a thorough and independent review of Airlink procedures and processes. I have called for the net to be cast wide. The review will examine numerous aspects including our leadership structure, cockpit resource management techniques, compliance with regulatory and standard operating procedures and training,” explained Mr Foster.

Media release on website

[kitkat777]

Line-Driver, I agree with you 100%, experience is a problem at Link, think the average age there is probably around 28, which is far younger than the world average I'm sure. Problem is like you say, no one wants to stay at Link for longer than is absolutely neccessary before they can move on to somewhere better and the company has only themselves to blame for that. Yes they want to go to bigger aircraft, but look at SAX, no one there is rushing to go anywhere, because they don't treat their people like slave labour. A friend of mine from Link told me they only have their minimum off days a month, and other than their flying days(on certain fleets there aren't many of those due to excess crew) they're on reserve all the time, they have usually about 9 standbys everyday on a fleet that only has 5 aircraft(ERJ), it's just becuase JVJ doesn't want them to be able to have a life and force them to take leave so the company doesn't have to pay them out when they leave.
Unfortunately, because Foster was too cheap to put in thrust reversers, so they fly around sand ballasts to make the weight and balance work, the aircraft is very prone to aquaplaning, there's nothing in my opinion the crew could've done to prevent it and good on the guys that no one got hurt. to all you on the ndola thing, they didn't actually go off the runway, just messed up the tyres but they taxied the ac back to the apron it was perfectly fine and those of you who haven't been to ndola, the runway is cement, not proper asphalt, lethal to land on at the best of times, why they even fly there is beyond me and since then, the new SOP is not to even try land there if its raining as you're almost certain to aquaplane, so come on, give the captain some slack here, it could have been much worse if someone less experienced was flying.

[OverRun]

The relative probability of an overrun on landing can be estimated based on landing distance required (LDR). In simple terms, if an aircraft performance requires all the runway length available to meet the landing distance required, it has a higher risk of overrun. Likewise, landing a C172 on Jo'burg 03/21 should make the probability of an overrun remote.

FAGG (George) runway 11/29 is 2000 metres long. I don't have the landing distance required chart for the EMB135 for a wet runway, but its dry distance with flaps 45 deg at an elevation of 198m is 1375m. Since wet runway LDR is 115% of dry runway LDR, the landing distance required is 1580m. The excess runway length available (beyond that required) is therefore 420m. The relative probability of overrun can be found to be 0.1 for that aircraft and that runway [from Figure 2 of Emery, S (2009) Risk analysis study on the need for a runway surface friction layer. 2nd European Airport Pavement Workshop, 13-14 May 2009, Amsterdam].

A general estimate for landing overrun rate is, on average, 1 per million movements. Factor that by the 0.1 relative probability, gives a probability of landing overrun events exceeding specified distance, of 0.1 per million movements, which is 1E-7. I'm not going to calculate this risk analysis all the way through to individual risk, except I now can say that this overrun event SHOULD have been pretty rare for this aircraft at George.

[Capetonian]

I have flown Airlink on this route 3 times in the last couple of weeks and find this worrying. Whilst I appreciate that the alternative, road travel, is significantly more risky, reading the preceding does not make me feel comfortable about flying.

I am not in a position to speculate on the possible causes of this run of 'incidents' but I do hope that given the generally very high standard of aviation in SA, this will be thoroughly investigated and necessary action taken.

[Maurice Chavez]

Looks like Link is making headlines everywhere. Here's an interesting article. (http://hayibo.com/articles/view/1190/SA_Airlink_trying_to_have_major_disaster_before_World_Cup.ht m)

[four engine jock]

They should have appointed someone from outside South Africa who does not know anything about Airlink.
Appointing someone who is ex SAA will not be very objective. As SAA and Airlink have code share and franchise agreements.

Maybe IATA/IOSA should get involved.

Or maybe the SACAA should monitor the whole situation a bit more.

As the young pilots, I have seen many young pilots that do a much better job than older ones.

Just cause you have 15000 hours and are 58 years old ,does not make you a better pilot!!!!

This is Just my humble opinion.

[postbox]

hmmmn i think training not so good. who is the training captain at link.the mind she ees boggle

[titaniumspoon]

RF. This comes from far away, as a warning, which many hope you will heed. I have family and good friends working there. The company that you head-up as CEO is on a precarious foothold. You can't carry on treating your pilots in this terrible manner. Your very apparent, absolute and perverse hatred for your pilots is going to result in the demise of that company. No company that alienates its pilots to this extent has ever survived! Why do you believe you can and get away with it? Your recently appointed side-kick (aka JVJ) has your sanction to go ahead and do as much damage to the pilots as what he believes he can get away with, legally.[even that must be pushed to the extreme darker side of the grey areas] This, all under the guise of more profit/competition etc.
You simply fire any and all pilots who resist! What do you think is going to happen when they leave? You have no respect whatsoever for senior pilots in terms of experience.
You utterly believe that any experienced pilot’s work can be fulfilled by brand new pilots.
You have a flying licence yourself. Maybe that has given you a clouded idea of the value of experience in flying?
Are you going to punish them for standing up for the company against you? Will you fly all the aircraft yourself? The end of their tether is within grasp of their hands already. Fix it, before you can no longer call yourself an airline CEO with all its lovely trappings.
(from the little wet island with no history)

[Sir Osis of the river]

If SACAA could shut Nationwide down on a Friday, Why not shut Airlink down tomorrow, pending investigation and remedial action? If there is nothing to hide, they should be flying, safely, by next week.:ok:

PS: Kitkatt77 , Nothing wrong with Ndola, IMHO

[toolowterrainpullup]

the new SOP is not to even try land there if its raining as you're almost certain...Don't quite know which SOP you are refering to but I am told there is no such thing on the E135.

The management at Airlink find it more important to find new ways of making the pilots lives a misery (ie. Data capture after flight, minimum days off with Home reserve for days on end even though there are more pilots on home reserve than they need, rostered to the maximum when they do fly, long splits etc etc.

if there are gaps, then we want to know where they are and we will implement whatever measures are necessary to close them,” stated Airlink CEO and Managing Director, Rodger Foster. Oh my, looks like someone does not want to listen to his crews. Looks like JVJ is keeping RF in the dark!:sad:

[gravity enemy]

Interesting to see how many comments there are about the FDP's. If the FDP's comply with law, then the airline isn't doing anything wrong. If any of you can't handle that, then you should fight the law and not the airline, since they are well within their right to do that. As far as sour relations go between the the management and the flight crew...that is indeed unfortunate, but once again it probably stems mostly from the FDP's.

And an earlier post described the average Airlink pilot being 28 years old, and thats below standards around the world. Absolute nonsense! :ugh: The recession has put hiring on hold for a while, but in many places across the EU and North America you can find far younger lads/gals strapped to A320's and 737's. The youngest Captain in the UK got his captaincy on the A320 at the age of 25! :ok:

[babemagnet]

I flew the EMB 145 for 2 years this accident is caused to my opinion by:

-Very Bad Ground spoilers on the Embraer
-No thrust reverse on the Embraer
-Long landing maybe?

[Der absolute Hammer]

Well, the aircraft performance graphs should presumably have allowed it to land on a contaminated runway of the length available at the field in question and the prevailing data.
So perhaps the ILS reference point became a little muddied in the drizzle?

[Tin-Tin]

I agree with you.. I have landed at Ndola in bad thunderstorms a zillion times and never had any problems or felt uncomfortable whatsoever...
CAA should interview every individual working for Link including the cabin crew to uncover the rot.

[Maurice Chavez]

Suitcaseman,

I fully agree with you, but keep in mind Nationwide was shutdown because of a personal score to be set by a certain individual who used to work for Nationwide and then got a very high post at the CAA.

As far as I'm concerned there's definitely a problem with AirLink. Indeed like you stated, fix it and get on with it. I know how the employees at Link are feeling, I was at nationwide. I hope for you guys that you'll get your house sorted out and get back to non eventful flying.

[Tom_Kitty]

I like the quote below:

SA Airlink plane overshoots runway - Times LIVE (http://www.timeslive.co.za/news/article223506.ece)

"It didn't affect traffic on the freeway, but 35 people were ejected from the aeroplane, three of them with minor injuries," said spokesman Julian Jansen. :confused::D

35 Ejection seats? That is truly impressive s***t! Maybe airlink should also educate their spokespeople in matters of aviation.

[reptile]

All those calling for Link to be shut down - come on! There are a lot of good people working at Link that rely on the job. Find the problem, fix it and get on with it. There were no winners when the CAA shut down Nationwide but many losers.

I agree 100%.

-Very Bad Ground spoilers on the Embraer
-No thrust reverse on the Embraer
-Long landing maybe?

Your first two points are very relevant and are almost certainly contributing factors. As for the long landing, I'm not too sure. I diverted to GRJ about 40mins after the ERJ parked in the weeds and had a long chat to the BA captain that was at the hold when Link landed. According to him the approach looked normal and they touched down just after the piano keys. It is virtually impossible to accurately judge approach speed as an outside observer and we'll have to wait for the FDR to see if they were too fast.

They nearly made it by the way - according to the BA crew they were slow (walking pace) by the time they got on the grass. The steep slope and the wet grass came into play however, making the outcome inevitable.

[toolowterrainpullup]

"It didn't affect traffic on the freeway, but 35 people were ejected from the aeroplane, three of them with minor injuries," said spokesman Julian Jansen. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif:D

35 Ejection seats? That is truly impressive s***t! Maybe airlink should also educate their spokespeople in matters of aviation. The quote was by an ACSA spokesperson in George and not Airlink.

As for closing Airlink down; Hell no, but I do think a long and hard look at managment and operational structures would be a start. You can not have a person running the operations in an airline who is purely driven and rewarded for saving money and making profit. There needs to be a balance and this is where structure is important as there is a fine line between a profitable safe flight and an accident waiting to happen.

Next, you cannot have a Chief Pilot who is 'Chief cook and bottle washer', (Line Captain, Line Check Captain, Fleet Captain and Chief Pilot all rolled into one). There is just simply to much work for one person when filling all the roles. As a result important things do not necessarily get the attention they deserve.

Listen to your flight crews; when they point out a problem they are not just doing it to cause friction. In the wake of Nationwide's demise it was found that most of the issues found where actually raised by the crews and engineers previously.

Let this be a lesson to Airlink. Maybe this is where the charter company becomes a real Airline, but definately not with the current people steering the ship.:}

[Der absolute Hammer]

Although it might have the same effect in the long run, the CAA would presumably not 'close down' an airline. rather the CAA might suspend its AOC pending an investigation into the recent accidents and crashes relating to the company.

[Wagw370]

During my time at Airlink I landed both the Jetstream and the Embraer at Fagg many times in all types of weather.There are no Performance issues with the 135. IMHO there was a malfunction.

There should be an investigation into Airlink as a whole.There was always friction between aircrew and management when I was there.Aircrew were simply considered an " asset" to be used by management to the fullest for the companies and shareholders benefit.

I wish all my ex colleagues at Airlink the very best and sincerely hope that this event will be the turning point from which matters improve and Airlink does really become the sought after company to work for as we used to be constantly reminded it was,by an ex" Human "resources manager..

[Der absolute Hammer]

But then is not the CAA nothing but a paper tiger which continues to allow an airline which has had two crashes and an accident/incident, in the last three months, to operate while it, the CAA continues to decide what to do?
They may be nuce people who work for the airline but I am sure that not all of the passengers, past and future are deserving of such a record of safety in a licenced public transport carrier. Surely the punters also need protection from Airlink management?

[120y]

especially bad press.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Well no, I disagree. The photographs and the fundamental facts speak for themselves. It is an appalling record.
In another matter that has been raised - plenty of airlines world wide have as many or more rotations per day as Airlink. Crashes and accidents are not a permissible percentage of the total flights per diem.

[Capetonian]

Thinking back on one of my last flights on Airlink, just a week before the George crash, I found two things somewhat unprofessional.

First the passengers were held on the tarmac in the bus for about 10 minutes whilst mechanics made some adjustments, as we were later told by the Captain, to an engine. Not a big deal but probably not very smart to do this in view of passengers who might be nervous - and in this case perhaps justifiably so.

Second, after we had moved away from the gate the FA's were counting and recounting pax on board and then announced that 'there appears to be an extra passenger so if anyone is not going to George please let us know'. Surely this should be done before leaving the park position?

[four engine jock]

With regards to appointing Captain Scully Levin, I feel many people will see that as conflict of interest. Captain Levin is on pension from SAA and it would not benefit SAA is they close down Airlink. I am not saying that they should be closed down at all.

Airlink should have appointed a person that is has no affiliation with either Airlink,SAA or any South African airline for that matter.

We all know that Captain Scully Levin carries a lot of clout and is well known around the world.

With regards to the International Air Transport Association’s (IATA) Operational Safety Audit (IOSA) process. Airlink was one of the last South African Airline to get there IOSA certification.

And Airlink was NOT ONE OF THE FIRST AFRICAN AIRLINE TO GET OR PASS THE THERE IOSA AUDITS !!!!

All IATA members Airlines had the Pass there audits by the end of 2008 or risk being thrown out of IATA.

[Der absolute Hammer]

That is a very good appointment for Airlink but there is a big joke in there somewhere? Has Foster forestalled the Feds? The airline itself is allowed to employ a heavy weight to inspect its own short comings? No doubt that will nicely draw any stumpy teeth that the authority has remaining.

[grjplanes]

The passenger handling at George is not done by Airlink


I think he meant he was flying TO George, so most probably from CPT...

I must say, the last time I flew them CPT-GRJ (on BAe146) something very unprofessional and probably illegal happened, there was no safety demonstration. Flight was nearly 2hours late (as this afternoon flight appears to be so often), so maybe forgotten?

[mortivflow]

The Airports Company South Africa (Acsa) on Tuesday refrained from commenting on allegations that the runway at George Airport was recently resurfaced. This work was apparently finished about two weeks ago. The grooves which have to be cut into runways to help stabilise aircraft during wet landings, have apparently not been cut yet. In the past, pilots were accustomed to the fact that this runway had the necessary grooves. George has been dry for months, but the accident happened shortly after the first rains this week. On Tuesday pilots said that, in such a case, there is usually a significant amount of rubber and oil on the runway, which is forced to the surface by the moisture

[nugpot]

the runway at George Airport was recently resurfaced.

....

there is usually a significant amount of rubber and oil on the runway, which is forced to the surface by the moisture


Its got to be either or..........

Rubber deposits take time to build up when you have as few movements as GRJ has.

[grjplanes]

Rubber deposits take time to build up when you have as few movements as GRJ has.


How many would have been enough to have any effect. Monday morning by that time GRJ had probably double more movements than usually on a monday morning, due to several diversions from PLZ...and all flights landed at that side of the runway. Also over the weekend many more movements took place with private jets from golfers and special flights bringing in sevens rugby players the sunday night.
I've asked on another forum also about the amount of water that could have been on that side, since all prior aircraft that morning landed at that side of the runway, this flight was first to do in the opposite direction, after wind changed.

[Der absolute Hammer]

So then is aviation in this country so-unregulated springs to mind as a descriptive phrase- that jet public transport pilots are dependant on grooves on runways to help slow them down in the wet or is it that, having had the runway resurfaced without or perhaps even with these handy grooves, new performance tables for the runway have not been produced by the CAA or the required agency? Was any such resurfacing the subject of a NOTAM?
Perhaps the grooves are instead to enable standing water to drain from the runway? But then, if there were standing water on the runway on the day in question, one would have expected such a degree of runway contamination to be included in the METAR/VOLMET or even a tower report? And if it were the case that standing water was a problem on the runway on the day, why was a braking coefficient test not carried out and ther esults included in any such METAR?

[nugpot]

How many would have been enough to have any effect.

Many thousands. The USAF has a testing regimen where they measure the change of friction coefficient at a frequency determined by the number of landings of large a/c.

Their testing frequency is as follows:

Number Of Daily.........Minimum Friction
Minimum Aircraft........Testing Frequency
Landings Per
Runway End
Less than 15..............1 year
16 to 30....................6 months
31 to 90....................3 months
91 to 150..................1 month
151 to 210................2 weeks
Greater than 210.......1 week

Rubber removal at large airports (JFK, LHR) are typically done at intervals exceeding 1 year.

[Maurice Chavez]

Der absolute Hammer,

Excellent questions, very hard to answer, if I was with the CAA, I would put these questions into the Flight Planning and Performance exams, so that nobody could answer them, fail the exam and when asked for a remark it would take the CAA a few years to get back to them.

[Der absolute Hammer]

MC
How do you say-an absolutely hysterically funny suggestion, hilarious!

[nyathi]

Looking at a few posts, the following points come up over and over, it looks like it comes from previsouly Airlink employees and crew and/or family members.

1. STATEMANT DELETED; APOLOGISE!
2. Dodgy Passengar handling :eek:
3. The Crew gets treated as just another rag and as an asset, etc. :eek:
4. Friction between Aircrew and Managemant

Who is this chap.....JVJ? He does not seem like a very popular peophol at all!

[grjplanes]

Are we 100% sure that the runway was actually resurfaced, I've noticed work being done at night over the last few weeks, but I've only seen them working on the taxiways, not the runway itself.

[nugpot]

nyathi, I haven't seen dodgy maintenance mentioned anywhere.

[Wagw370]

Grooved runways make a significiant difference in wet conditions.
IIRC the runway in PE was grooved years back only after a SAA 737 overran the runway after landing in wet conditions:hmm:

[nyathi]

Apologise NUGPOT, Statemant removed, till further investigation and official report has been released.

[AAL]

There is a crew management problem at Link. Crew complain of salaries saying Link pilots are worst paid in industry, which resultantly does not attract better pilots.

This snowballs as more experienced and better ones seek better opportunities as soon as they have built reasonable hours and new entry level are one's prepared to work cheaply in order to only build hours.

Example is cited of two very young recently appointed single piston rated with 500 hours t/t, sent for Sim training and conversion, now starting as BAE-146 FO's.

It is alleged that investigators should start looking at crew morale, human resources management, and CRM, before they even delve deeper into technical and maintenance aspects.

Old addage: Pay peanuts - Hire monkeys, or at least not the better that is out there.

[Der absolute Hammer]

The tone of that suggests crew morale, ability and experience might have had something to do with the track record. That in turn suggests crew error. It would be inappropriate to comment further on the obvious.
But keeping along those lines as suggested, plenty of airlines have what are preceived as poor working conditions. That's no reason for a series of crashes or 'incidents' as they are humanely referred to. (It sounds like calling genocide 'ethnic cleansing'?)
Nothing wrong with two totally inexperienced first officers flying in the rhs of a simple jet - not my personal ideal but never mind. Presumably minimum experience requiremens are laid down in the ops manual which has been approved by the CAA?However, such crewing scene presupposes that for some hundred hours or more, any captain with whom they fly will be functioning as a line training captain even if he only has the experience to be a line captain. Also-plenty of captains absolutely do not want to be line training captains! Presumably, if true, these two fo/s were before an interview board of Airlink and presumably someone from the training section was on that panel. At least, it is true to say that such would be normal?
It is not fair to refer to Airlink crews as monkeys even if they may be. There is not a lot of opportunity out there at the moment and anyway, if a 500hr single pilot can pass an 1179 or equivalent and IR on a BA146-he is not doing too badly in the actual flying stakes. But that is a small part of the total picture.
If Airlink has three fleets, BA41, Emb 145 and BA 146-are the all under the control of one chief training captain and/or one chief pilot? I think that such an operations manual would not be approved in Europe. But then of course, this is blue sky country.

[Trossie]

Has anybody thought of the irony of who is carrying out this investigation into a landing on a wet runway? Is he not the leader of this formation: "HARVARDS "The runway is wet - MyVideo (http://www.myvideo.co.za/video/harvards-the-runway-is-wet) ?? !!

[Der absolute Hammer]

Yup.
That was back when, 1974?
One could say that it was a positively groovy movie?

[assymetric]

Hi everyone,

I know Scully is one of the most experienced aviators in SA and one with considerable skill. But does one not think that if an airline was to bring in an expert to review their procedures, should this expert not have relevant (and current) experience with the a/c types that the airline operates (at least one of the types with assistance for other types).

No disrespect Scully

Assy

[Tailspin2001]

reptile said

Your first two points are very relevant and are almost certainly contributing factors. As for the long landing, I'm not too sure. I diverted to GRJ about 40mins after the ERJ parked in the weeds and had a long chat to the BA captain that was at the hold when Link landed. According to him the approach looked normal and they touched down just after the piano keys. It is virtually impossible to accurately judge approach speed as an outside observer and we'll have to wait for the FDR to see if they were too fast.

They nearly made it by the way - according to the BA crew they were slow (walking pace) by the time they got on the grass. The steep slope and the wet grass came into play however, making the outcome inevitable.


I imagine they were Comair pilots who fly BA franchise aircraft and not BA pilots per se. Now I know we all like tight but I think George is a bit too tight for a 777 or 747 :)

[Der absolute Hammer]

Standby a moment..I though that Scull'y wrinkles were caused by g...

The appointment heads off the deranged Indians (the CAA) at the pass. It forestalls them bringing in a firm of safety consultants from overseas-as if they would? Did Airlink get permission for Scully's appointment from the CAA and if not then why did they CAA not make their own recommendations or suggestions. It's a neat trick that managment have pulled off and it may benefit the airline emoployees. It certainly benefits Airlink in that it is stilll flying. Soon no doubt, Scully's picture will appear on bill boards or even on TV, telling the world of SA that he'd fly on water with the airline.
An attitude that is cynical possibly but which seems to fit the personality profiles as read here in Pprune.

[CJ750]

How is Scully going to have time for this investigation if he is working for Mango?? or can he walk on water as well as fly on water. Surely a Non South African appointed by CAA would be a better bet. Something is wrong at SA Airlink and is starting to become more public now which cannot be a good thing.
Did Scully and JVJ not work together at SAA at some time - Neutrality??
Has CAA actually sanctioned this appointment or has Scully's reputation just paved the way. Wonder if he will work a conversion into the deal for his pension scheme like he tried with a large food chain company who has an aeroplane. :8:8:8:8

[Der absolute Hammer]

Oh dear me. It does begin to look as though the CAA are in a pickle of hot dog proportions. Perhaps their international reputation will soon score an own goal?
Did they allowed one accident and one serious incident to pass by without doing anything. Now another accident passes by with no action of any discernible nature by them. So is the CAA contributory vicariously and by default for the last accident by the virtue of having done nothing about the first two? I think it would be quite uncomfortable for the CAA if Airlink crash again. They would probably then have to make a statement next week about that.

[AAL]

I dont know what you all's problem with Scully Levine's appointment is. He has been appointed by Airlink to perform an own in house evaluation of their performance and standards. It is a company initiative and has absolutely nothing to do with the CAA.

DAH, big boy - stop worrying about Link's next accident, they are finnished and over now. No more will happen.

Or are you from one of the opposition airlines or LCC praying to take their customers. Get over yourself, suggest start praying for your own ar$e - you never know when you will need the blessing!

[Ghost_Rider737]

Fly Airlink (http://www.saairlink.co.za/news/article59)

Just read this on their website

[toolowterrainpullup]

I have no doubt that CAA will ask the usual questions such as what is done during training etc. instead of asking the questions that really should be asked like drawing records on the stability of rosters, flight returns, snag history, quality of leadership and ability & knowledge of management etc.

Moral is a major issue at Airlink. The negativity amongst crew, engineers and ops personel is palpable. Unfortunately CAA will no doubt avoid speaking to crew etc. as it is just to much work and the holidays are coming...:oh:

[Whenwe]

I am just wondering how things might have changed over the years... is it still the same that ALL accidents and serious incidents are investigated by the department of transport; accident and incident department, not the CAA?

How does things work there now? Does the CAA need a nudge from the department of transport before they can get involved?

[Selfloader]

I have the utmost respect for Scully and his flying abilities - is there another pilot in this country who has flown as many types as expertly as he has? But does this make him a safety auditor? Why not appoint a bona fide SA auditing company to do the job or is cost (once again) a factor? GAC is one that comes to mind.

[Cpt. Underpants]

Now I know we all like tight but I think George is a bit too tight for a 777 or 747

Not true. Personally landed a 747 at GRJ (diversion from CPT).

[four engine jock]

I agree totally with Selfloader. And someone that has not connections with SAA!!!!

Airlink went through an ISOA audit and received there certification. And I can tell you it’s not easy to pass that one. A SACAA audit is a walk in the park compared to IOSA.

Airlink has gone through a bit of bad luck and I am sure they will come out ok.

[newcrew]

is this not the captain who had some logbook issues some time ago at link?

[Sir Osis of the river]

Small technical point:

Should it not be Mr Scully Levine, or Capt. Scully Levine (Retired)?

Or is he still flying elsewhere as a captain?

Also as someone above pointed out, is this not a conflict of interests? Him having worked with JVJ in the past?

Just wondering..

[Selfloader]

Now that is a sore point with some retired left-seaters. The chief of the SACAA still likes to be know as Captain. And I know two former captains, now in their 70s, still in the industry, but not flying, who continue to refer to themselves as such, despite the ribbing (sometimes not so good natured) they get. You just have to read the SAAF news letter to see how many references there are to long-retired Captain So-and-So. Me? I don't care. If they are still in aviation, it is probably good for business.

[AAL]

A retired military officer always retains his rank and title. An officer that retires is not entitled to do so.

[Sir Osis of the river]

Thread drift I know....

From my point of view, I never worked with or for the Head of SACAA while he was a captain, or f/o for that matter, and considering that he is a civil servant, I would certainly never call him captain.

With all due respect.

Sir O

[Cable Tie]

I agree totally with Selfloader. And someone that has not connections with SAA!!!!

Airlink went through an ISOA audit and received there certification. And I can tell you it’s not easy to pass that one. A SACAA audit is a walk in the park compared to IOSA.

Airlink has gone through a bit of bad luck and I am sure they will come out ok.

Mmmm, Didn't Nationwide also pass IOSA audit and look what happened to them, just after one incident. Makes you think.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Lots of amusing stuff about Airlink here....

Star (http://www.thestar.co.za/)


A brief excerpt to whet one....

'I say to the visitors, forget the minibus taxis. If you want real adventure, fly SA Airlink. You still sometimes end up on the road, but there's lots of other excitement in between.

The beauty of street landings is that you are not so far from the nearest hotel or hospital, whatever is most appropriate.'


Glad to see they did not mention the morgue.

And this comment, apparently made by Rodger Foster.

'"He (I delete the name as printed in the Star) dealt with the aquaplaning scenario perfectly in the simulator ... why he didn't cope today (yesterday), I don't know.'

Poor show when your boss drops you in it to the press even while he, the boss, is conducting his own enquiry?

[Flyer14]

another passenger who appears to know more about flying than pilots..........wasn't the press saying similar stuff about 1time not so long ago when they had all those engine failures????

link is just the current flavour of the month

[birrddog]

More fun... this from the EP Herald (http://www.theherald.co.za/article.aspx?id=509543)

Airlink allegedly tries to rig online safety poll
2009/12/11

AIRLINK staffers allegedly tried to rig an online poll about its safety, The Star newspaper reported today (December 11).

Airlink chief executive Roger Foster admitted to the newspaper some of his staff used chain emails and posters to urge colleagues to vote that they would fly Airlink in a poll on IOL: News for South Africa and the World (http://www.iol.co.za)
Some 55% of readers voted they would not fly Airlink, while 45% said they would still use the airline.

Foster said the alleged poll-rigging campaign “was not sanctioned or approved by me, and I was unaware of it until we received your [The Star’s] email query”.

Transport Minister Sbu Ndebele this week requested an investigation to determine if the airline should be grounded.
Airlink had its third accident in three months on Monday, when one of its planes shot off the runway in wet weather, injuring three people. – Sapa

[Sammajoor]

A Defence force officer with the rank of Colonel and higher, gets to retain there rank. The rest become Mr. again.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Spot on Sammajoor.
That's why so many Majors get made up to Lt.Col on retirement or end of term. They keep the rank and the increase in pension.
Anyone parading around a seaside boarding house calling himself 'Major' is about as pretentious as an out of flying pilot calling himself 'Captain'.
But-a cunnning plan-I do have a credit card with 'Captain Absolute written on it. It helps with the discount on hotels and the flight upgrades. You could probably get on with 'General' written on it if you filled in the form that way round. But then the Bader Meinhof group might blow you up.

Addendum:
Perhaps the press has been very fair. It perists in calling a crash an accident, which is an understatement. An airline being accident prone for three months is not nearly as bad as an airline being crash prone. How much of an aircraft write off do we have to achieve before moving from the realm of incident to accident to crash? Is it quantifiable? Must passengers die before it's a crash? What's in a word then? Who cares!

[yambat]

On the press front
Cape Argus headline last week," Plane misses George runway" ,allegedley taken from a pax statement.
Get it right, did not miss it, just found it not long enough on the day.
I enjoyed deputy director general of transports alleged question in the Star regarding a cause, "Did the pilots descend from too great a height and then not have enough runway to land?"
Luverly!
Safe flying to you all, with all the rain in Josie we may need floats!

[Der absolute Hammer]

Then will Airlink become Airsink?

[ByAirMail]

All respect to Scully and is achievements in aviation, but did this company not give his son his aviation "break" by employing him with minimum hours. I have no doubt in his son's ability, but I don't think that Scully can be 100% neutral in this audit.

[Der absolute Hammer]

I do not think SC is part of any audit.
Is he not an Airlink 'employee' hired to produce a 'survey' of the airline in regard to the accidents recently? But he does not have to be neutral. Any bias he may or might not have is not really relevant because he does not represent any independent authority? It does not much matter either if he is a 'safety expert' or not - as in being an airline safety officer-a job not usually reserved for a senior training captain. I always thought that his expertise was in training and so he is in an admirable position to assess crew morale and the antics of individuals-which seem to be the main points of complaint in these pages-should he choose to do so. If you read his recent article on the Hudson A320 you will see that he writes with some authority on 'primacy' and 'recency', two aspects which possibly be relevant here.The article is published in March edition 'SA Flyer' which finally made it up north. It is a most excellent read.

[Capetonian]

http://www.timeslive.co.za/multimedia/dynamic/00352/Zapiro1210_352854b.jpg

[Der absolute Hammer]

For whatever reason and in spite of whatever has been approved in SA, it looks as though the Europeans would not be happy about a certain livery BA146 arriving in their skies?

Fly Airlink (http://www.saairlink.co.za/)

Swaziland Airlink (http://www.flyswaziland.com/)
(In 1999 the Government of Swaziland and SA Airlink together formed the company Swaziland Airlink (Pty) Ltd.)

LIST OF AIR CARRIERS OF WHICH ALL OPERATIONS ARE SUBJECT TO A BAN
WITHIN THE COMMUNITY1http://ec.europa.eu/transport/air-ban/doc/list_en.pdf
SWAZILAND AIRLINK Unknown SZL Swaziland

[kingpost]

This whole thread is quite concerning.

Is there a stabilisation policy at Airlink?

Scully, god bless, these old boys never give up, should not be involved. It should be an independent appointment by the CAA - still better the CAA itself. It's quite scary to think that the CAA do not have anyone specialised to appoint - Scully is a conflict of interest. The public needs a objective report and no smoke screens, they need to identify why this happened and what caused it. What stops RF slipping some bonus cash under the table to sweeten the retirement!

The crew, in some form or another stuffed up. Why did this happen is what the investigator needs to find out. It sounds like there has been a lot of cost cutting that has been probably pushed through by JVJ. These types make a name for themselves by cutting costs, it's so easy to do. You can save money by not servicing your car - it doesn't breakdown the next day but when it starts breaking down it's more than one item that needs fixing.

Who is responsible for the training dept, JVJ?

[mactheknife]

Maybe Scully will teach them how to land on the back of a truck driving along the road, so that they are prepared for the next time.....:)

[Bloodhound]

Aquaplaning at low speed? Does anti-skid still work at low speeds such as attained at the end of a runway?:confused:

[Der absolute Hammer]

Wonder what the surface texture depth is at George.
ICAO recommend > 1.0mm -grease patch test.
Some factors which affect aquaplaing are tyre condition and pressure.
The critical speed for dynamic hydroplaing increases with the square root of the tyre inflation pressure. So-if you are the taddy bit fast and your tyres are a little over filled.......testing the boundaries perhaps?
The dropping out of anti skid or maxaret at low speeds is not, I think, a fuinction of speed but more one of the wheel spool down-but that may change from one aircraft to the other.

[Bloodhound]

Should the airport under these circumstances not have been closed?

[Bloodhound]

And what's with the EDIT everytime I post a reply????

[Mad Dog 83]

Reading all the stuff above about the 'incident' at George is very interesting....but one issue which, although probably a small thing, still baffles me.

The initial press release issued by the AIRLINK identified the aircraft involved as being ZS-SJX....which it clearly wasn't as can be seen by a plethora of photographs which quickly appeared everywhere, before someone obliterated the registration marks (as seen on the picture spread across front page of the Cape Times a day after the event)

Now WHY would this be done? What purpose is served by hiding the aircraft's registration when this is bound to become known sooner rather than later. Should I smell a rat? I know there has been the odd case where airline names et al have been painted over at a crash scene (to obviously minimise bad publicity) but by obliterating the registration marks in this case (even though the official AIRLINK press release actually quoted a registration mark, albeit an incorrect one) makes me wonder.

In today's Sunday Times there is a postage stamp sized picture of what the aircraft (ZS-SJW!)looks like after its removal from the road....Are there better pictures around anywhere?

[Der absolute Hammer]

Rumoured to have happened with the Titanic and her sister ship. Hull fraud springs to mind. Of course, not the same here.
Sure, aquaplanning can occur at low speeds. It happens especially on take off run, well below V1 as the weight starts to comeoff the nosewheel and directional control is lost.

Also there is reverted rubber skidding. It is like viscous skidding and happens with a thin film of water and a smooth runway. It is usually a continuation of dynamic or viscous hydroplaning where the wheels are already locked. Enough heat is generated to vaporise the underlying water film and this forms a cushion of steam and so, no tyre to runway contact.This (RRS) will continue right down to very low speeds and there will be no steering either.
You can check for if RRS happens by white marks in runway surface or also reverted rubber (so the name of it) on the tyre.
Hum Ho! Anyone done a runway inspection at George lately?

[titaniumspoon]

Knowing someone who previously had to deal with them in past years, I can assure you the following will apply:
1) Sit tight and don't give an inch or concede to anything
2) If the chances are good to not be caught out, lie whenever necessary
3) While they are down, apply further gentle pressure to the throat. Just do it in a subtle manner
4) Grease works very well in this industry, especially when confronted with any authorities, normally applied to the palm.
5) When the public are howling for your blood, blame the pilots directly!
6) Remember at all times: Never give any recognition to the pilot's value, ever! This will cost you dearly if you do.

This whole past few months debacle will be glossed over shortly and will go away on its own. Whenever new changes have to be implemented to increase profit, there will always be a few logistical problems to be dealt with, like currently the press etc. Simply deny and accuse them in return of being ill informed and not understanding the detail.
Never ever allow the pilots to be heard and listened to by the authorities. Make sure you always have a brown-mouth lackey ready to answer their questions in detail.

It certainly is imperative to have all paperwork (as prescribed in detail) in order. This way you can face any challenge by saying "Look, all is in order as is required"! We are not at fault. Here is the proof. Etc.
Remember, safety can be used to make huge profits if you just ensure you have not done anything which can be shown to be in contravention of the law. You do not have to have a safe-at-any-cost enterprise, but no fingers must be able to be pointed at you. Understand how to stretch the rules without breaking them; this is where most of your money lies.

At all times aggressively use the maxim: "If you don't like it here, leave". This has almost a 100% certainty of making them feel guilty and not resisting your profiteering.
As in all politics, using a heavy hand usually douses any thoughts of resistance.
When deemed necessary, employ an axe-man to implement distasteful policies. The reputation of one JVJ (he must chuckle every time his name comes up in the reference of pilots) is laudable.

[Tin-Tin]

Any news to what caused the crash at George. Saw Airlink pilot's pouring water onto their brakes the other day at Nelspruit. Apparently it helps to cool the brakes for rapid turn-arounds.:\ Is that a normal Embraer procedure?

[Capetonian]

Pouring water onto hot brakes, at least on a car, is an act of utter stupidity as it is likely to cause warping and cracking of the discs or drums.

I would guess, and it is only a guess, that aircraft brakes are the same, but I could be wrong.

[Der absolute Hammer]

If it is written in the Emb 135 checklist that the drill for a brake overheat is to chuck a lot of water over the wheels, then it must be fine.
Best drop Embraer a line and ask them for technical support in that regard?
Embraer Commercial Jets (http://www.embraercommercialjets.com/english/content/home/default.asp)

[Capetonian]

Airlink to be allowed to continue operating but have to rectify some (as yet undisclosed) deficiencies within 7 days.

[Fuzzy Lager]

Blaming management because you over ran the runway is like blaming your parents when you are a 50 year old loser. There is only one person to blame, the captain allowed the aircraft to over run. Nobody else. RF didn't do it, JVJ didn't do it. Nobody else.

If I was a passenger on that aircraft the last thing I would have done before I got off would have been to give him a PK. Hope someone does.

I wish pilots would stand up and take some responsibility. Pprune is ruled by whinging twits wanting to blame the management of the operator and bitching about how hard life is. Grow up, its pathetic.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Hearty second here for Fuzzy Lager!
The last three Airlink accidents have, from what we as airline pilots might deduce quite possibly and conjecturably been due to pilot error in one form or another. I do not know much about the Ndola incident but runway over runs tend to raise an eyebrow, same machine type as at George?
But how much vitriol will be thrown upon the pilot who writes on these pages that another pilot is possibly at fault and thus calls another's airmanship in to question? We may yet see!
Let us not forget the concepts Primacy/Recency and Threat/Error. The firts of which lies within the remit of an airline training separtment.
If all three or four crashes/accidents are the fault of pilot error within a small airline, then there is definitely a reason to look at the training section and the chief training captain and any other training captains or line trainers whch the company might have as well as their recruitment and rostering policy. So if you blame the flight crew, you extend the envelope of potential culpability. So far so good or so horrendous!.
It is silly to compare, as some papers have done, aircraft with trains and taxis. The general public transport system is not subject to the same regulation as the aircraft industry. If you want it to be so, then write to your member of parliament or perhaps you'd rather reduce the standards of the aviation industry to that of the wandering taxi? That is all a ridiculous red herring.
From what I have read on these pages, I don't think that Link will do anything except continue to duck and dive, as well they might and why not? It would be is a disgrace though to aviaton in SA if have not been pulled up sharp and hard. Its not a run of bad luck. Its two crashes and two accidents in six months? The only 'luck' is that passengers or more people on the ground were not killed. Have there been satisfactory explanations either from Link or the Department of Transport. Also, I have to wonder to what conclusions, if any, Embraer and BAES have arrived at.
Not that anyone is probably required to explain anything but then the public is entitled to draw its own conclusions from any silences. Sorry, if I take off the cap with the oak leaves and clusters around the brim I unofficiallyy, privately and on a totally personal basis see no reason to suspect anything but multiple negligences and a tub of white wash - and no, I don't fly for an Airlink competitor. Airlink probably have no competitive equal in civil aviation anywhere in the world for the number of accidents or crashes in the shortest period of time?

[Der absolute Hammer]

Not quite sure here if anyone really knows which government agency is responsbile for which function. Anyway, the taxis have nothing to do with it.
I do not see why one has to work for a company or for anyone close to them in order to be able to form an unbiased opinion based upon the information generally available. In the fact of the matter, I would have thought that someone with absolutely no connection with the company concerned might be more impartial than someone whose opinions are often coloured with prejudice and insult.

[Apollo20]

hi guys, girls, captains, generals, whatever..! Having perused through the thread, and a few key points on "Airlink crash" would be nice to have some facts on:
- has anyone on the forum been able to confirm either with the crew or via FDR data (if any of us were that lucky to see it), WHAT the DIRECT CAUSE (i.e. the physical reason/cause of the accident) of the accident was...? Any FACTS please....?
- As for the DOT/Minister and the CAA as to whom takes responsibility, it is the ministry that does via DOT and only then CAA. Remember, SACAA is an extention of the DOT which is governed by the Minister (under the DOT) so the minister acted wisely in this which can be supported. It is A great day in aviation that real caution is used before just "grounding an airline" by the minister....:D
- in a time like this, as "difficult" as it is, we have to work on the evidence/facts of the accident. Without assuming anything, it is interesting to see that 12+ maintenance related issues were found that needed to be corrected. how sure are we that pilot "error" was to blame for this accident. If it was, then it is of utmost importance that the pilot/crew in question needs to share their experience with us so we can learn (hopefully) from it.

Anyway, food for thought and let's see some fact/evidence related comments.

Apollo20

[DASHER 8]

I desperately hope the above post re: water on the brakes, is a joke !

[Der absolute Hammer]

Some where there is a forum called something like....

'It could only happen in Africa'

Think perhaps this whole saga belongs there?

[Tin-Tin]

It is not a joke... Saw it with my own eyes!! :eek: Apparently that is normal practice according to one of my mates at Link.. Even the Chief Pilot does it..:rolleyes:

[Der absolute Hammer]

Well, that is certainly shock therapy for the brakes. We do not treat 737s like that.

[Tin-Tin]

I know...:bored:

[Der absolute Hammer]

Such a procedure is neither recommended nor approved as it could change and deform the mechanic properties.
The only recommended drill for a brake over temperature is to release the park brake, with the aircraft on chocks, and wait until the brakes cool down, presumably as indicated on the MFD.

[Der absolute Hammer]

No Punkah Wallahs in Africa then?

If the water treatment is true and here it is not more than a totally unproven rumour -then Emb tech manual must ask whether brake or wheel deformation had occurred and also if this might have been a contribution effect in the two Emb 135 runway accidents/incidents/crashes what you choose to call them? AFAIK the J41 does not have a MFD so perhaps that excursion is something else altogether - which it might have been.

[CR2]

Had very hot brakes in NBO on the 747-200F many moons ago. Yes, water was used, apparently no ill effects. Water truck was hooked up to potable water tank, filled to overflow, hose attached to overflow valve, hose pointed at brakes creating a mist/fog.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Cool!

Perhaps Boeing would have approved, perhaps different materials were used for construction.
However it is a fact that Embraer Technical Support in Brazil most certainly do not approve of this technique.

[CR2]

"Cool" well, brake temps were high orange and rising... I suppose we could have waited a few more mins to go into the red and watch the 16 MLG go "phhhhht"

Steel brakes.

I was answering to I desperately hope the above post re: water on the brakes, is a joke !

Don't assume.

[Der absolute Hammer]

I think that there must be the assumption that in the course of an approach to a high temperature sited wet runway, subtle and gradual changes of atmospherics, temparature and humidity have taken place during the course of descent and in the round out itself?
What Embraer seem not to want is exactly the sort of shock teatment that would be involved in tipping a bucket of water or dribbling a bottle of water over over temping brakes.
As Embraer say here:

____________________________________________________________ __

'The wheel and brake system are composed by different type of material (metals and carbon ) with different thermodynamic behavior, therefore IN NOT RECOMMENDED and APPROVED any
procedure to force the brake temperature to cool down. As it can deform and change the mechanic proprieties.

The only recommended procedure is to release the parking brake (a/c on the chocks) until the brakes cool down as appropriate.'

____________________________________________________________ _____________

That seems pretty conclusive as far as the Emb 135 is concerned and it more or less coincides with what I would venture to call common sense. One must make ones own conclusions as to possible cause and effect that might be involved in this..

[Der absolute Hammer]

I would not wish to make speculations as to an alleged airline practice which is not approved by the manufacturer and connections with accidents. But if you read between the lines you will see that Embraer-Europe technical support do not recommend or approve of the idea and do think that there might be an adverse reaction.

[putt for dough]

Does anybody have any idea what links pax loads are like
after the latest runway excursion? would be very interested to know.

[Der absolute Hammer]

For those not familiar MFDs and brake temp indications here is a handling suggestion and some notes.

Aircraft land.
Clears runway.
After landing checks.
Depending on Ops manual. Brake page selected on MFD. If you have adouble MFD then you can have the brake page and the fuel page up. Whatever you like.
Brake temperatures may be green or orange at this stage. Numerical temperature display depends on system installed on aircraft.
Taxxiing in to stand. Brake temperature 'usually' stay fairly stable-possibly due to forward motion air flow.
On stand, on chocks, park brake off. It is at this point that on the MFD the temperatures can start rising.
In other words, on the aircraft that I have flown with MFDs, the likely time for higher than normal brake temp occurrs when the aircraft is slow and approaching dock or on stand.
The airports of specific reference here are Naples, Rome, Milan and Elba (short runway ) in summer, so not cool at all. Had the hot brake indication not rapidly reduced of own accord once parked, we would have called engineering either at station or at home base. No doubt at some stage if the problem continued, engineering would have requested guidance from manufacturer.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Certainly not and I have no idea what is in the conversion course or where it is even undertaken.
The point of the post is here.
In other words, on the aircraft that I have flown with MFDs, the likely time for higher than normal brake temp occurrs when the aircraft is slow and approaching dock or on stand.
But you may with pleaseure call it a pointless post but then I am not at all sure why you replied to it.

[Der absolute Hammer]

The only relevance was an inquiry to Embraer technical support as to whether they recommended or approved of the procedure of pouring water on the brakes to cool them. The reply from Embraer-Europe technical Support has been quoted. The rest was just discussion, exchange of information, pointless or otherwise.

[nugpot]

Der absolute hammer,

It doesn't look like a discussion. It looks as if your record is stuck on the same song and everybody else has moved on.

[Sir Osis of the river]

Pour water on brakes on my a/c and I am gonna run a country mile:=

Not the done thing. I don't know any manufacturere that recomends this procedure. (Of course I have not flown every type, so I could very well be wrong, and am ready to be corrected)

[verreaux eagle]

I agree fully with Sir Osis of the river!:ok: I would not allow anyone to pour water on my brakes whilst hot! Unless the MANUFACTURER prescribes that practice! Maybe Link should consider longer turnaround times or fit thrust reversers? What is the manufaturer recommended turnaround time for this type?:=

[Avi8tor]

I am distrubed to hear that the 'water on the brakes' techneque is back. I asked a captain at the time if I could pour cold water on the hot brakes of his new BMW. He got the point. Not that I believe it had anything to do with the failure to stop in FAGG.

As for the no reverser discussion. They add about 400kg's to the empty weight, thats four pax, I can see why they were never ordered as an option.

Just a thought, what if the air/ground logic failed? No ground idle, no spoilers and I think no brakes either.

Sadly I think all these incidents/accidents are just symptomatic of problems at Airlink created by management. They have saved themselves into a string of very public events that must be costing them a fortune.

[titaniumspoon]

The results of Airlink's cost saving are very apparent. J41, gone! Embraer 145 damaged to a huge degree. How does this tie in with money saved? Maybe the insurance money received was lucrative? Surely, and certainly my thoughts may well be wrong, but how can the sum total of all RF's cost saving under the authority of his very specifically selected JVJ, be more than the money he has lost through two CRASHES and a few other incidents? RF's way of making a company achieve good profits is certainly 'different'! I wonder what the big companies who have large stakes in Link think of his lackey who he appointed to hurt the pilots? Yes, he certainly does achieve much in that direction, but at what cost for that personal satisfaction?
The latest audit by the Aviation Authority yielded apparently no anomalies! A very few technical aspects of maintenence, which can in any case everywhere be improved upon with all airlines, and no wrong doings with the flying side! Wow, truly amazing! What a terrible spate of bad luck then, huh?
My contact inside (reliable and trustworthy and non-emotional) tells me, there is nothing going on inside to change anything. Management are extreemly happy with the way the company is being run and don't intend to change anything! In fact they seem to have 'battoned down the hatches' and are riding out the storm!
The Legacy of Capt S.L. will remain intact and shiny simply because he was employed to make "recommendations". This he will do, make no mistake, in the best usable detail. However, what gets done about his recommendations is entirely a different story. Do the Aviation Authorities ever get to see his recommendations? Hell No!!
How will RF act on the recommendations? Well lets see: Mmmm, this will cost extra, leave that for now. This will cost nothing or virtually nothing, certainly do that! Also, anything which will be visibly seen by the press and travelling passengers as a change, do that!
The underlying causes which affect the safety of the passengers and people on the ground will not change!
The brief will certainly include: "Remember to say nice things to your staff! This costs nothing. I want to see briefings/notices/certificates/lauded honours/public company applause to all staff", as long as it doesn't include an increase of cost. Keep the profit at a maximum for the shareholders!
Capt S.L. you can start walking away now already shacking your head thinking to youself "Why won't he listen?!" He is using you in his very accomplished strategy. Look and learn my learned friend and true champion of aviation.:ugh:
Remember RF, you might despise your pilots as much as you like, but it is them who have warned you- "The big one is coming", and then you won't have just one dead pilot.

[120y]

I understand that the so called "savings" is not only pilots thats effected so is all the groundstaff. The so called "increase" is in fact no increase at all , it even effects the provident fund.
They must have a labourlaw inspection as well.
No wonder there is such a huge staff turnover.
Pay peanuts....get monkeys.
Must say the staff that I dealt with , are friendly , most of them go the extra mile , but ........dont they just feel .......why must I do anything extra and the company dont look after us anyway??? Even heard ..if you don't wanna work like that or complain...you get sacked.:=

[Sky Bolt]

[QUOTE]As for the no reverser discussion. They add about 400kg's
They apparently carry 200 kg's ballast or more on all flights to get the c of g in the envelope. Apparently aircraft is nose heavy due to the galley configuration in the front.:ok:

[Sky Bolt]

Posted by TOOLOWTERRAINPULLUP
[quote][I have no doubt that CAA will ask the usual questions such as what is done during training etc. instead of asking the questions that really should be asked...........]
Just heard from a friend at Link that CAA now has a requirement for the Link instructors to do psycometric tests and interview with CAA. Does anyone know if this is now going to be a standard requirement for all the airlines, or is the the result of one of their reccommendations for Link only? :hmm:

[titaniumspoon]

I often wonder about the position of Chief Pilot at any airline. Certainly it is a precarious position in terms of loyalty. However in the case of Scarelink I think the CP leans toward siding with the top management on all issues, if not only for pure self-preservation!
When the bean-counters start prescribing to the pilots on how to fly the airplanes you are going 'South'. These venerable sages might be quick minded, but they are not qualified pilots and never will be! (Pilots don't earn enough money for the bean-counters insatiable desire)
At link, non-flying professional persons do ask and demand and prescribe to the pilots what to do. "Why did he turn back and not just finish the leg?".
"They will use this system of navigation planning". [My buddy at so/and/so wrote this program and I need to support him......]
The Chief Training Captain came from where with what relevant experience AND management experience???
Finally how much time is required for the storm to blow over before we can resume normal Link operations?
Capt. S.L. you will still see what you are up against, just wait, not much longer now before your requested service is "done" and you are no longer required. Then the big guns who all belong to the aviation "Lodge" will be unfettered to continue.
Guys and girls.... Link will NOT change to ever become a proper airline. Get your experience and get out as RF requests you to do and get a proper AIRLINE job! There are plenty of good airline jobs outside of SA!!!:ok:

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[titaniumspoon]

My close contacts (3) at Airlink tell me that management are happy with where they are now again. Most all the dust has settled, press have been very loathe reporting anything unless it is completely false and can immediately be countered by RF.
Capt. S.L. has been very very quiet. No doubt close to the end of his task by now. They tell me he is rather frustrated. Mmmm, curious. Him coming from an environment where, when anything needs to be done correctly and is necessary, it 'gets done'! Nice environment to play in. Now it's always easy to point fingers from that protected environment isn't it? "Look at that bunch of Hooligans pilots at Link! No one can call them professional. You wouldn't see THAT here at SAA"!
Now however, the boot's on the other foot! See what the rubbish Link pilots have been up against for soooo long now, Capt?
You do seem to have a bit of a nose-bleed there old chap! NO offence meant at all, but I believe you have met your match at Link!
Two sayings are relevant here to the image of Link.
1) Talk is cheap. Money buys the whisky.
2) The proof of the pudding is in the tasting thereof.

Your legacy IS now at stake. I believe you're going to walk off thinking "This is a lost cause; let them stew in their own self-generated juice". "My sympathies to all the good crew at Link........"

[handbraketurn]

Hey TS, I guess RF must have fired your ass for being so sad.

The final report on the George accident has been published - turns out all fingers pointing to the runway, aerodrome operator and lack of oversight and capacity by the CAA.