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View Full Version : B777 Commands and the loss of Housing allowance


Rice Pudding
6th Dec 2009, 05:54
It seemed odd to read that the company are advertising command vacancies on the B777, but only for 747-400 captains. Why are they breaking from normal practice and not upgrading the experienced F/O's in normal order of seniority ? Well, its complicated, but also very well planned, and it goes right back to when we were offered COS 08. And it’s largely about your housing allowance.

It has been very obvious to everyone that at the current rate of planned expansion there is a high demand for crew at all levels on the B777. Most F/O's who are expecting a command soon, have been advised that this will not happen, and they may have to wait another year or two. Instead, the company is going to take captains from the -400. An odd turn of events ? Well maybe not. You see its highly unlikely that out based crews will come to HK to take up those commands. It will be mainly HK based -400 captains who volunteer for the fleet change, and in turn, this will lead to a shortage of captains on the -400. At the same time, the -400 has been undergoing a steady increase of freighter work, with freighter conversions and orders of more -400 freighters to come. In short, the -400 will become the new classic fleet.

The company have denied that the Air China / Cathay freighter operation will lead to jobs being taken. And this is very plausible when you consider why: It’ll lead to more jobs as long as the flights themselves are operated and crewed by our own freighters. This was pre planned, and contractually, most of us are now obliged to operate freighters if rostered to do so.

The obvious thing to do then is to advertise for freighter commands in 6 – 12 months time, and upgrade senior F/O’s from the B777 or Airbus in order of seniority onto the freighter. Many of these will be Hong Kong based, and will offer no housing allowance and a lower freighter salary. But, as in the past, when promotions slow down, there will be a steady supply of F/O’s willing to take the promotion anyway, albeit on a lower pay scale, without the housing. The only catch is that the requirement for promotion has not slowed down, so there was a need to create the illusion that they had slowed. Clever ? Very !

So, what are the alternatives ? Well, if you are a senior F/O who expected to do your command about now, you could threaten to stay put and accept by-pass pay - right ? That’s fine, as long as you didn’t sign over to COS 08, and as long as many captains didn’t either. You see the company already thought of that, and as you might now remember, COS 08 is all about removing or limiting by pass pay. This was not just a lucky stroke on the company’s part, they carefully planned it.

You may also have pondered why the company are now offering cadetships to expats. After all, There has always been a steady stream of willing and very experienced expats to fill the S/O and F/O seats. But it makes more sense when you look further down the track. Right now, a new expat cadet costs the company more, but gets a much reduced housing allowance. In a year or two the company only has to reduce the length of the cadet course to say 4 weeks for a pilot with say 5000 hours experience. In effect a “short course”, for those that meet certain experience requirements. It would still be a cadetship, but with either no, or greatly reduced housing allowance. And then they will have quickly gone full circle, back to a four week intro course, under another name, but with a huge cost savings.

Ex Douglas Driver
6th Dec 2009, 06:21
Yeah, except that there are no new "freighter only" captain slots, and all upgrades are (supposed) to be in seniority order on the passenger scale.

airplaneridesrfun
6th Dec 2009, 06:35
If you want to talk about something like this, do it on the HKAOA board. This isn't the place.

EXEZY
6th Dec 2009, 06:44
Why isn't this the place? It was my understanding that it mattered little if a CPT had signed COS08, if one remained on COS99, BPP is still triggered.

Rice Pudding
6th Dec 2009, 06:46
"Yeah, except that there are no new "freighter only" captain slots, and all upgrades are (supposed) to be in seniority order on the passenger scale."

That's correct. There won't be any until enough captains have moved across to create the demand. And that is the whole point. Normally, F/O's would be upgraded to fill the B777 slots right now. But think about it, they would also attract a housing allowance, and the existing -400 captains also have a housing allowance.

The way it is being done the -400 captains will keep their housing allowance when they transfer fleets, but the F/O's who normally would take the B777 command slots will instead become freighter captains......

Secondly, it is my choice to put this post here, as it effects many of my colleagues and I wish to draw attention to the issue. The HKAOA bulliten board has its' place, but this issue would do well to receive a wider audience.

As an aside, can anyone confirm if Milan will be operated with three crew ?

404 Titan
6th Dec 2009, 06:53
Rice Pudding

If you are implying that an extending captain on COS08 as they all are or will be won’t trigger bypass pay, you are wrong. The company have even said as much in written correspondence to the pilots and the AOA. My contract COS99 says that normal retirement age is 55. It is irrelevant that captains on COS08 now have a normal retirement age of 65. It is what is in my contract that counts.

As for the other stuff you have written, well as has been said, no more freighter commands. This latest notice to crew regarding 777 command transfers is more of a reflection that the 777 desperately needs more captains and the -400 is probably over crewed. If no one goes voluntarily they will force -400 captains to transfer from the most junior captain up.

Rice Pudding
6th Dec 2009, 07:35
All good points, but I wasn't implying that. Plenty of F/O's did sign the COS 08. If there's any doubt as to the company's intentions, lets just wait and see.

Ex Cathedra
6th Dec 2009, 08:26
Not sure I fully undersand the twisted logic here, but could it not simply be that the 744 fleet is going to decrease in the coming years and hence the 744 capts will have to go somewhere.

There might be an increasing need for 777 capts, but that does not mean that there is an overall need for capts in the company.

Numero Crunchero
6th Dec 2009, 10:14
The 744 is going to be doing less and less pax flying it appears. We have many DECs, ex ASL etc that will be able to man the 744 freighter flying for many years to come. The offer to transfer from the 744 to 777 was for HKG based CNs only. So I think it is a simple manning exercise rather than some Blackadder 'Cunning Plan' to defraud FOs of BPP or housing!

Adolf88
6th Dec 2009, 10:20
Instead, the company is going to take captains from the -400. An odd turn of events ? Well maybe not. You see its highly unlikely that out based crews will come to HK to take up those commands. It will be mainly HK based -400 captains who volunteer for the fleet change, and in turn, this will lead to a shortage of captains on the -400.

Read the NTC again, it is specifically for HKG based -400 Captains.
B744 PAX aircraft are on their way out, therefore it seems okay to me to manage the company's resources.

And what do you mean by .....is becoming the new Classic fleet ??

You lost me there.

Rice Pudding
6th Dec 2009, 11:31
I sincerely hope you're all correct. Interestingly, no one commented on the expat cadetship, but I'm probably mis-reading the company's intention there too.

Guys, wake up and smell the coffee.

GTC58
6th Dec 2009, 16:52
Rice Pudding:

The B744 pax fleet will be permanently reduced by 5 airplanes in the coming months which will be replaced by B777's. Also in one of the latest fleet forums it was mentioned that we are over 50 Freighter Captains heavy in North America alone.

I don't think there is any conspiracy, just properly staffing the different fleets as the B777 is growing and the B744 fleet is slowly reduced to freighter only aircraft.

All future commands are in seniority and there is no such thing as "early Freighter commands" anymore. That means that all future commands have full benefits including housing allowance.

cxorcist
6th Dec 2009, 16:55
Rice,

I believe you are at least in part correct. Our housing allowance is certainly under attack, and international cadets are one of the mechanisms that CX is using. The other potential threat is the restriction of movement back to Hong Kong from a base due to non-availability - which is completely bogus because we have always had a "right of return".

I think your read into 777 transfers from the -400 fleet is partially correct. As pointed out earlier, there are no more freighter commands. Any new command is a full command, and if it is in Hong Kong, it will have full expat benefits. This is, of course, unless you are a so-called CEP (Chinese) and being racially discriminated against by the company.

Regardless, the 777 moves will sooner create slots on the 744/8. I believe the company can/will offer these on bases, thereby eliminating the cost of the allowance package out of Hong Kong and reducing the total number of expats in Hong Kong. Remember that the freighter fleet has long been manned primarily from bases and that Hong Kong crewing is a fairly recent development resulting from the ASL, KA, Oasis, DEC fiasco in 2008.

Make sense?

CXorcist

betpump5
6th Dec 2009, 19:33
You may also have pondered why the company are now offering cadetships to expats

I don't think anyone has pondered why! For the reasons you have already said. DESOs are bloody expensive in the long run which is why the scheme is soon to be officially abolished.

LongTimeInCX
6th Dec 2009, 22:07
404titan, you wroteIf no one goes voluntarily they will force -400 captains to transfer from the most junior captain up. Is it true that the most junior 400 Captains are mainly freighter or ex freighter pilots? If so, does this mean thee company will be drafting those pilots on to the 777? Or will they be taking what many understood to be the most junior pax 400 pilots? If the former, you can imagine the ex-classic freighter pilot who has only recently done his 400 conversion, would think all his christmas's have come at once

cxorcistThis is, of course, unless you are a so-called CEP (Chinese) and being racially discriminated against by the company.
I think you will find you are wrong on two counts: 1- there are many non chinese CEP, so one could hardly call it racial, and 2- the CEP are getting what is in their contract. Is it unfair-most certainly, is it discrimination-probably not, or it would likely have been tested in court by now.

404 Titan
6th Dec 2009, 23:06
LongTimeInCX

As the Notice to Crew was referring to Pax -400 captains I was implying the most junior captains on the -400 pax fleet. Slip of the tongue but your second assumption is correct.:ok:

Cpt. Underpants
6th Dec 2009, 23:16
ShortTimeInCX

No shortage of C&T CN's on the B744 requesting a change to the 777, followed by an abundance of SENIOR CN's. Unlike the Airbus moves, no-one is likely to be dragged kicking and screaming off the B744 to the 777.

snoop doggy dog
7th Dec 2009, 00:50
They are clawing back the jobs lost when they got rid of the KA freighters.:ugh:

Hainan got there fair share of the KA jobs, when CX management decided with all their wisdom to load up CX aircraft with KA freight, then turn around and say "KA freighters are making no money, need to shut them down (so we can get someone cheaper doing it!)." :p

A liitle drift, I guess it wont be long before our masters see that TPE, PEK and PVG wont be "profitable" for KA with CX doing more and more. :rolleyes:

Their train set. :}

Five Green
7th Dec 2009, 03:33
As of one month ago, there most definitely was 744 Hong Kong based pax Captains being forced off the 400 on to the 777.

Maybe this has changed in the last month if more senior Hong Kong based Capts have volunteered.

Cheers

Cpt. Underpants
7th Dec 2009, 04:43
LTCX

I'm not one for smiley faces, but what the hey...

This one's for you!

:ok: