A weekend on The Somme

[tarantonight]

I am fully aware that we have just passed November 11th for another year, but was looking at some recent Phots from a trip to the Somme. Got me thinking.

Feel I am a robust individual - don't we all - but can recall times in France and Belgium when I had sudden attacks of Hay Fever, welled up and everything.

I noticed on my last visit there were a lot of school trips from the UK and the British Youth of today clearly moved by the experience. These trips, I believe, should continue for the memories of the fallen to live forever, not just in November.

What do you think Pruners?? :D

[cazatou]

For trips to the Somme - 1st July would be an appropriate date.

[A2QFI]

I was very moved, when touring in the area some years ago. Driving along some minor road one would find a small cemetery with the names of some young men of a particular regiment, recorded on the headstones. 5 miles East there would be another cemetery with the dates a few days later but the same regiment. It was possible to plot the WW2 advance thru France by these very moving and beautifully maintained plots of land. So many graves and so few very far out of their teens. Very humbling and emotional!

[Saintsman]

At home, our war memorials and graveyards are vandalised. In France they are well maintained.

If only more people appreciated the price of freedom.

[Tyres O'Flaherty]

Saintsman

It's always a new generation, don't be against them for what they don't know about, or isn't relevant to them.

I grew up with a lot of my relatives who'd either lived through the first, or the second, ( My Great grandmother, and her brothers, who didnt all survive the western front, & and both my grandfathers, who ''did'', bomber command aircrew, all the way through, and miraculousley survived).

Those familiy members are real to me, but why should they mean anything to someone like these new kids ?

[enginesuck]

Twenty years ago I visited the battlefields of Northern France as an eleven year old on a history field trip, I suppose at that time i was one of the "youth" who would not be aware of the significance of the place , being that i had no military connection nor much awareness of the first war. However on being confronted with the rows upon rows of white crosses i was immensly moved as were the majority of my classmates, It is a special place.

[Man-on-the-fence]

Post removed as I am not having my images used in a pi$$ing contest.

[50+Ray]

Thanks for those photos. I found that the hay fever travelled a long way when I looked at them.
R

[scarecrow450]

I visited the area with my school many years ago. As soon as we got to the graves we all shut up and just spent our time reading as many headstones as we could. We were all very sombre that evening, even the loudest of our kids were quiet.

Think it should be compulsary for all school kids(of a certain age) to visit.

[C130 Techie]

Excellent photos. I am looking forward to a trip to Ypres at the end of May (A 50th birthday present). The sunset ceremony at the Menin Gate is something I have wanted to experience for many years.

[Samuel]

No matter how much you read, or think you understand about WW1, it is only when you get up there amongst all those graves that you begin to grasp the enormity of the whole scene.

My wife's father's two older brothers are both buried in France; both having been killed within six months of joining up in New Zealand and arriving in France, a third family member, a cousin, is on a memorial, but was never found.

We drove up to visit those graves three years ago, one being in a cemetery near Armentieres, which isn't a tourist town, and being late in the day, and with no hotel booked, we took what we could find in accommodation. It turned out to be a wonderful family -run three-bedroomed 'hotel'. The owners, a couple in their late 50s I would guess, were very curious as to why we were there, so I showed them all the details I'd run off the War Graves site, the names of the cemeteries being in French, of course.

This gentleman ran the sheets through his fingers, looked away, looked at me, then I realised he was crying! "Mort pour la France" was all he said. Who says they don't remember?:D

[foldingwings]

If you go to Ypres, take a half hour and sit in Tyne Cot Cemetery at the end of the day when all the tourists have gone. You will not be alone but it is one of the most humbling experiences that I have ever undertaken - especially when I realised that I was the oldest person there!

Long may we remember them.

Foldie

[SilsoeSid]

Tyne Cot

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/tynecot.jpg


Pommereuil British Cemetery
Taken after retracing Great Uncle 2Lt Marcus Webb Higgs steps, exactly 90 years after he fell, 01:30 23 October 1918.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/wreath.jpg

[The PM]

It's been a few years since I was there, but are the stone lions at the entrance to the Australian War Memorial in Canberra from the Menin Gates? It seems to ring a bell for some reason?

[Icare9]

Mods:
Please review justapplhere's post and if you agree that it is totally irresponsible emotive and pejorative, feel free to delete or edit as applicable
I'm all for free speech, but not to denigrate those unable to defend themselves from this slander.
They answered the call, whether toffs or poor, ozzie or whatever.

justapplhere: Please edit your post, it is totally uncalled for to describe people that way.

[clunckdriver]

Icare9, you will hear much the same in Canada, in particular Newfoundland, sorry old chap but history is history.

[Samuel]

I didn't gain the impression the comments made were about fighting men, but the incompetents running the 'shows', and it is a fact of history that they were incompetent; some of the best British historians said so! When 60,000 caualties a day doesn't alter a mind-set, then the mind is flawed! It isn't slander if it's true!

There was a 'knock-on' effect after WW1 in that, in the case of New Zealand in the desert in WW2, commanders, General Freyberg being but one, had the right to refuse British orders if they considered them not to be in the national interest: read "cannon fodder".

[SASless]

While living in the UK I took a long holiday and toured the area mentioned by others here and was absolutely stunned by cemetery after cemetery...many on each corner of a road junction divided by nationality. The loss of life during WWI concentrated in such a limited area just defies belief.

Then add to that the monuments in every small village and town around the UK....bearing the names of all the young men lost in that war....really brought it home to me.

In the film "Saving Private Ryan", as hokey as the film was overall....the opening scene of the old Veteran walking amongst the head stones with his family behind him, clearly set forth the human cost of war. Each one of those head stones represent such a family lost for all time. Multiply that by the number of soldiers killed in war and it makes one wonder why we allow such things to happen.

[matkat]

My son visited the Somme last year when He was 15 (organised school trip from Scotland) as a typical teenager I can say it certainly affected him, the photo's of him and his mates at the Menim gate etc certainly showed me the respect that he held for those that had fallen, one of which was His great uncle.

[tezzer]

Myself, Mrs. Tezzer and a group of friends are visiting on the 30th of December, mainly for a 50th birthday celebration of a goo friend who strangely enough now lives in Australia. He is bringing his son, now 16, who is in the Australian equivalent of the ATC, his father and I were on the same squadron here in the UK, back in the 70's. Although the primary reason is for a birthday celebration, I am sure that the visits to the graves around where we are staying will be a sobering experience, especially at that time of year.

His brother, an ex Royal Marine runs a business, in the area offering B&B and well informed tours of the key sites, such is the interest to this day in the history of the massive sacrifice of this dark times.

[Icare9]

Obviously I'm in the minority here, and I'm unable to answer such deep statements as "history is history"
What you avoid understanding is that after the Germans swept into France almost to the gates of Paris, they retained all the high ground and were content to hold against all attacks, especially by the French who suffered appalling losses.
The bullets killing all these brave Australians/Newfounders etc weren't British and in no instance were any Empire troops sent in as "cannon fodder" to be "slaughtered" in preference to British troops.
Yes the scale of casualties was enormous, but the bulk of all "Allied" attacks were uphill and against unfavourable ground where the defender had the advantage.
Nevertheless, as "history is history" and you want to believe that the British were killing your troops and not the Germans, I can't argue in the face of that.
ANZAC troops committed atrocities against unarmed Arab villages in Egypt, is that the way I should think of all Australian troops?
Carry on, I'm out....

[cazatou]

justapplhere's diatribes appear to be based on the views of Charles Edward Woodrow Bean who was an accreditted Australian War Correspondent during WW1 and later became the Australian Official War Historian despite his lack of formal credentials in Historical Research and Authorship.

His views as to the relative merits of Australian Formations compared to the merits of the Forces of other Allied Nations can most politely be described as "Partisan".

[Arclite01]

This thread is going way 'off piste' IMHO. Lets get back on track please.

If you want to be really humbled look up 'Devonshire Trench Cemetery' on Google.

Arc

[SASless]

The man was quite specific when he used the terms "Commanders" and "Generals". Perhaps I have been watching the wrong BBC programs about the Somme and other great battles where the same "commanders" are being criticized by the presenters.

Back to the thread....all these years later and the losses in that war are still causing debate....as evidenced here in this thread!

[Archimedes]

Agreed - way off piste in a bit of a 'piste-ing match'..

However, a couple of points if I may:

Before claiming accuracy justapplhere might wish to bear in mind that the buying of commissions ended in 1871.

In context, Douglas Haig would've had to have been bought his commission as a 10th birthday present. A fair number of other senior officers in 1914 would've had to have had their commissions bought for them before birth While I suspect that a couple of ancient 'dug out' officers in 1914 might have bought their commissions just before the practice died out, it is wildly inaccurate to say that the majority of officers had bought their commissions. If there were any who had, they were in the overwhelmining minority, and given their age, they would have been in second-line and staff functions rather than enacting command.

Oh, and the Imbecilic strategies by pompus Poms bit is open to doubt - the debacle at Fromelles, for instance, was largely down to General McCay. Born Ireland 1864, family to Australia 1865, considered himself to be an Australian. It wasn't just us Poms who had officers not up to the task of fighting a war which none of them had ever prepared for (the army being used to fight in the colonies with European entanglements being left to the Europeans).

Second point - John Laffin is to accurate history of WW1 what Lewis Page is to accurate consideration of air power. Laffin was comprehensively debunked by Robin Prior (or was it Trevor Wilson - it was one of that duo, anyway) in a programme on Douglas Haig shown on the BBC about a decade ago. Laffin rarely made use of primary source material, and certainly never bothered to put in any information which might contradict his assertions. Rather like Noble Frankland's comment on strategic bombing, Laffin was one of those people who preferred 'to feel, rather than know' on the subject. There are other historians who are critical of the commanders, but the nice, black and white 'Butchers and Bunglers' approach Laffin (and others) espoused has been comprehensively dismantled in recent years.

Research (Davies & Maddocks, for instance) demonstrates that the 'chateau general' image is a bit of a myth. The number of officer of 1* rank and above killed, wounded or captured in WW1 is into three figures (compare that with WW2), and at least one (Clifford Coffin) won a VC leading his men under fire. Billy Congreve (also a VC) was shot by a sniper while encouraging his men, and more than a few others (non-VCs before anyone suggests a link) were killed, gassed, shot or wounded by arty fire while in front line trenches or close to what we'd now term the FEBA.

Now, granted, these casualties weren't common when compared to the risks the men in the front line faced, but generals paid more visits to active fronts than is appreciated.

The reason for using Chateaux was in no small part down to the fact that they offered a reasonable basis for a communications hub - comms and signalling were extremely difficult, and commanders found themselves forced to communicate from some distance behind the front line (out of the way of enemy arty, which accounted for a number of HQ locations and occupants in 1914/1915).

Now - none of this takes away from the fact that there were some appallingly hopeless commanders (Hunter-Weston), some who weren't quite up to the job (many of whom were 'degummed' and sent home) and a good number who could only find the way to success through trial and error - at appalling cost in casualties.

With respect, we can have a superficial debate over competence here, based upon plausible, well-argued, but badly-researched books (or upon raw emotive prejudice reinforced by same) or perhaps get back on track with the purpose of the thread...

[DX Wombat]

I passed by the Menin Gate en route to Switzerland [I think] several years ago. I was unable to stay for the evening ceremony but was appalled by the huge number of names visible from the coach in which I was travelling.
With regard to WW2 memorials, the American one at Duxford always gives me food for thought, as does the memorial to the Women Pilots of WW2 at Elvington.
Elvington:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/DX_Wombat/553e06c5.jpg

Duxford - each aircraft represents one aircraft of its type and the crew, lost in WW2.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/DX_Wombat/P1011662.jpg

[MajorMadMax]

Spent three years at SHAPE, and tried to get down to the Somme as much as possible (but you can never spend enough time in such a historically-rich area). I am glad I had the opportunity to take my sons there to show them the battlefields firsthand, it gave them (and myself) a much better understanding of what it may have been like although it will never replicate the horrors those heroes endured.

Our freedom today is a direct result of the sacrifices of these brave souls...

[bspatz]

Of interest I discovered that in the Delville Wood cemetary are a couple of RAF (rather than RFC) graves which, dating from 1918, must be amongst the earliest casualties that the service suffered.

[L9172]

Notwithstanding the arguments about which Generals deserve the most credit or blame for vast casualty lists in the First World War, I wish to add my name to the list of 'hay fever sufferers' this forum appears to have in astonishing quantity. Visiting 'Wipers' many years ago and being present at the Menin Gate during the evening ceremony, I decided to take a photograph of the event. To my surprise that mysterious 'hay fever' struck as I raised the camera to my eye and the bugler started to play, and the photograph I actually got owes nothing to my ability as a photographer (fairly small) because I could see little through the viewfinder and had to rely on luck to get any sort of photograph.

The sentiments expressed by several people in this thread suggest that taking the youth of today, whose school history lessons seem to have ignored entirely the efforts of their forefathers to keep this country free, to the battlefields upon which most families in Great Britain (at least, those who have been here for at least hundred years or so) lost a son, is a salutary experience and one that ought to be visited upon every child as it passes from junior to senior school. Perhaps some of the money thrown at the Common Market (or whatever it is being called this year) could be diverted to this end and show our children that their ancestors did do something of benefit to them and to the rest of the continent as well.

[Lewis deLow]

Went myself in October (Menin Gate, Tyne Cot & Devonshire Trench amongst others) & couldn't help being moved. Always touching to see small memorials still cared for by the locals, you can't say that the French don't appreciate the sacrifices made.

Re the RAF crests on the headstones, I asked our guide about that. It seems that any RFC / RNAS were "badged" as RAF when the cemeteries were formalised in the 1920s.

[Arclite01]

'The Devonshires held this trench - The Devonshires hold it still'

So few words - so much content.

Arc

[Nopax,thanx]

I have just been over to Ieper for the second time this year, having been in the summer for my first visit. The contrast with the Christmas festivities and the memorials is very thought-provoking.

Like others have said here, the Menin Gate just opens up a well of emotion when you see it for the first time. I urge you all to go and see it if you can, I have been round the Somme several times but there is something special about ‘Wipers’ even though the cemeteries are mostly out of town. Whatever is said about the causes of the conflict and the way in which it was fought, the only thing that I felt was a humble respect for those who had given their all for Britain and the Allies, regardless of wherever in the world they had come from.

[Arclite01]

Actually I thought ToC H did it for me.................

Arc

[tarantonight]

Agree with you Arc. Toc H stirs all sorts of emotions. The tour of the museum in the attic is a must.

That story about the Luger rounds through the ceiling - true...........??

In relation to LongTimeInCX comments above, I recall an inscription on a Somme Headstone which went something like this:

'Please be careful not to stand on my son, for below you is the love of a mother'.

My memory fades regarding the exact inscription, but I defy anyone to walk away from it with a dry eye.

TN

[spoz]

I agree about the impact this (and many other places, Hell Fire Pass for example) has on one at its first, or indeed it's many-th exposure.

But as somebody who had to study what occurred professionally, and has been in a situation (though thankfully not at war) analagous to that of some of the commanders who have been criticised in this post, I wonder how many of the posters, given the level of knowledge available at the time (thus, without any hindsight) would have been able to do any better, or indeed could have done any better?

There are times when the defence is way ahead of the offence; that, until one of the combatants became exhuasted and a new technology, the tank, had been perfected enough to be usable, was the position. The options available to any commaner when placed in the position of having to attempt to recover ground in that situation are limited and none of them are attractive.

There is no doubt that the really good generals of WW2 (Slim etc) learnt much from their experience as junior officers, as I hope my generation learnt from them; but it was about leadership, not tactics or strategy. But there were bad generals in WW2 (on all sides) as well.

I'm Australian; I hold no particular candle for any of the Allied commanders of WW1 (and that includes Monash - he was a good, capable general of his generation, others were arguably both better and worse); but I also dislike an interpretation of history which suggests that the Australians (or the NZers or the Canucks) were gods let down by clowns. Such an interpretation is, to say the least, specious. It might pander to national myths or prejudices but is does nothing for an objective intepretation of the past.

[Arran]

I too have visited various WW1 battlefield locations and cemeteries, together with the Menin Gate and have been similarly moved. To be honest, I found some of the small cemeteries as sobering, if not more so, than some of the larger ones - they seemed a bit more personal somehow.

Having read a fair number of books about the war, it is perhaps all too easy with 20/20 hindsight and judging by today's standards to have the popular view that the Generals were incompetent buffoons, but one of the best books I have read recently was 'Mud, Blood, and Poppycock', by Gordon Corrigan, which paints a different picture.

What other options did the commanders have once trench warfare had set in? To attack over open ground with no bombardment would be an invitation to be cut down by machine gun fire, as happened. To have a long pre-attack bombardment would give the enemy ample warning of the attack, often didn’t cut the enemy wire, left the ground extremely difficult to move over and often resulted in the attacks getting bogged down. As time progressed so did tactics, with moving barrages, mines, gas, tanks, aircraft observation and communication etc. The huge numbers of lives lost is no less dreadful and there were many mistakes made, as in all wars, but to say that the commanders tried the same old thing over and over again and did not innovate (as is often the modern perception) is unfair.

[cazatou]

To put matters into perspective the following is a summary of casualties suffered by WW1 Protagonists as a percentage of personnel mobilised.

France 76.3%

Russia 76.3%

Romania 71.4%

Germany 64.9%

Serbia 46.8%

Montenegro 40.0%

Italy 39.1%

British Empire 35.8%

[TBM-Legend]

Australian casualty rate was 65%....

During World War I over 421,809 Australians served in the military with 331,781 serving overseas.[160] Over 60,000 Australians lost their lives and 137,000 were wounded.[160] As a percentage of forces committed, this equalled a casualty rate of almost 65 percent, one of the highest casualty rates amongst the British Empire forces.

[TBM-Legend]

Australian casualty rate was 65%....

During World War I over 421,809 Australians served in the military with 331,781 serving overseas.[160] Over 60,000 Australians lost their lives and 137,000 were wounded.[160] As a percentage of forces committed, this equalled a casualty rate of almost 65 percent, one of the highest casualty rates amongst the British Empire forces.

PS: Australian Flying Corps - No. 4 Squadron became the most successful fighter squadron in France, accounting for 199 enemy aircraft

[TBM-Legend]

Thank you. In my immediate family group alone I had three great uncles killed in action, two more seriously wounded and my grandfather seriously wounded. When one considers that the population of Australia then was around 5 million, the number of able bodied men who signed up and went to war was staggering. Roughly one third of all eligible men served of which two thirds became casualities..

we've never missed a war since the Maori Wars in NZ, the Boxer Rebellion to A/Stan now where we get less coverage than the Poles!:ooh:

[Samuel]

Just to take out of those "Commonwealth figures: at the start of World War One the total population of New Zealand in 1914 was just over one million.In all, 120,000 New Zealanders enlisted, of whom 103,000 served overseas. A total of 18,500 New Zealanders died in or because of the war, and nearly 50,000 more were wounded. Of the total number who died, over 2700 died at Gallipoli, and 12,500 died on the Western Front.

That represents a casualty rate of 66 per cent; huge given the size of the population. My understanding from my own family, or rather my wife's family, is that there was never any question of not going to serve "King and Country", but NZ paid dearly for it.

[tarantonight]

I am a bit dismayed we have people here fighting over facts, figures and who did what/when and best.

A huge number of guys - young and old - lost their lives, some of whom did not have the chance to further the family line.

The fact of the matter is, we should rememember them all, Northern Hemisphere, Southern Hemisphere, East or West

TN

[Inspector Clueless]

Hi Folks & Merry Christmas to all,just discovered this thread.

Some years ago in the 80s I was doing a low level transit back to UK and remember clearly the Albert -Baupame Rd as a nav feature on my map and due to the low cloud base and rain I was using the road,it is straight and I had no idea of its significance.I wondered what the cream coloured blocks were scatterred around in amongst the trees,villages and terrain as we flashed over.It dawned on me as I asked the other guys when we arrived back in the UK. The WW1 cemetries.

In the mid 90s my pilgrimage began,I had no idea at all the extent to which all those brave souls endured for our freedom and I have returned many times now via trips to Paris with my airline and also across the channel by ferry when on leave over the years with mates or often alone.

Subsequently like many,I have family connections and friends who had relatives fight in this most dreadful conflict from all corners of the world.

Last year at Flat Iron Copse I noticed a recently deposited pile of soil by a headstone close to the entrance and within it were the clearly defined bones on an entire human foot. There were also several shells deposited at the corner of the cemetry.

I have read a great deal on WW1 now as a result of my chance encounter in the 80s and there is nothing quite as humbling and cleansing to the mind as to standing in the middle of a Commonwealth cemetry and surveying the headstones that surround you.Let us not forget the estimated 6 million horses that also perished in horrific circumstances.
Instant hayfever symptoms everytime,even in the winter in the rain it has for me been truly fascinating,illuminating and truly in awe of the dnagers this generation faced.
On the way back if you travel by ferry,there are a further 11,000 burials at Etaples which is where the wounded were taken,so many to "die of wounds".

Mindblowing to me.:cool:

[Samuel]

I can assure you TN that I am calm! The post that listed some countries by name and lumped others into the generic" British Empire" didn't spell out the massive effect of the war on countries such as New Zealand, with very small populations. It is simply a statement of fact and not intended in any way to be a comparative figure.

[tarantonight]

OK. Understood, nothing personal.

[SASless]

Caz.....did the American's miss that war altogether?

We were very late to the war and were still shipping troops to Europe when the war ended.

Some more stats....

The Great War . Resources . WWI Casualties and Deaths | PBS (http://www.pbs.org/greatwar/resources/casdeath_pop.html)

[Ned Parsnip]

Some years ago in the 80s I was doing a low level transit back to UK and remember clearly the Albert -Baupame Rd as a nav feature on my map and due to the low cloud base and rain I was using the road,it is straight and I had no idea of its significance.Inspector Clueless - You may be aware that same straight Roman Road, the D929, was also used as a nav feature many years before you by the Mosquito navigators of the famous 1944 Amiens Prison Raid aka Operation Jericho. (http://www.alltheweb.com/search?cat=web&cs=iso88591&q=Operation+jericho&rys=0&itag=crv)

http://www.sporting-memories.com/aai/jericho.jpg

http://www.nzetc.org/etexts/WH2-2RAF/WH2-2RAF011a.jpg