World "Civilisation"? It's time to talk.

[Capt Widebody]

What happened yesterday was gratuitous and terrible. My heart too goes out to all those families who were torn apart. But as I sat down and watched, and thought deeply about the attacks, the lives lost and the possible further consequences, I found myself more emotional and upset than I had been for a long time about something so physically and emotionally distant from me. Then it dawned on me why. The saddest part was that I was not so upset at the lives lost and shattered by these acts of war, but at the state we find ourselves in as a so-called "global community".

I thought about other such atrocities which have, in recent years cost thousands of lives, but the media and the western world have glossed over in comparison. More people died in Rwanda, and for what?. What of the ethnic cleansing in the FRY, those hundreds of people who finished their journey on this earth stepping into a mass grave? The reason why yesterday is still shaking the world, is not the lives lost, it is the manner in which, and the place in which they were lost. Many people, as me are reflecting on their morals, their mortality and their own beliefs as a result of this tragedy. I hope in this sense, some good can be salvaged from the brutality and evil we have seen.

I hope the world leaders really do try use this as a pivotal point about which to change the way we all think. I'm not talking about tightening security with the airlines and battening down the hatches, though I understand this is necessary and sensible. I'm talking about trying to find some unity with our geo-political neighbours, and our religious, cultural and often economic "opposites" both near and far. Let's wipe the negotiating table clean and start again.

As long as there are people with religious and "moral" standpoints that they believe in so fanatically they are prepared to die for then this is a war which "civilisation" cannot and will not win through more destruction and death. I am not religious, and I do neither congratulate or berate myself for this. Suffice it to say that if I were religious, I would be praying for these horrific events to change the way we all go about our business.

Yes, this is idealistic, and the perceived practicalities of the "war" situation will doubtless outweigh my sentiments. I find this very sad, but wholly understandable. I am not for an instant suggesting that anyone "turn the other cheek". I am just saying that sending a message to the perpetrators by return of post could be the most costly mailshot ever delivered.

It's time we attacked, as hard as we possibly we can. We must hit back. But we should hit back at the root causes of this evil, and think very hard about the best way to do it. "They" can kill people, and destroy buildings but they will never destroy the spirit and freedom of democracy. Sure. Now turn it around and ask yourselves if this is a "war" we can win through any conventional means?

Bombing the terrorists' safe harbours and killing their friends, supporters and families will score points and send out a message. It will win a battle, but that is all. Martyrs will be made, and from their ashes will rise strength, determination and more purposeful resolve. The next atrocities will be just around the corner, and far worse. We should find the perpetrators and bring them to justice. But before we deliver our civilised justice, let's try to understand them more, and help ourselves.

I hear some of you baying for blood. Sometimes I feel the same anger in myself. Some of you are probably wandering how these can be the sentiments of a military man. I will do as I am ordered, but I will think of it what I choose.

The armed forces of the civilised world are a force for peace. I understand all too well the military doctrine, the principles of the deterrent, and the necessity of reaction to prove resolve in a conflict. But this is no ordinary conflict. It is not an ordinary war. I firmly beleive it can be won, in time with enough resolution. Please let's win this war, but let us honour all of the innocent people who have died by winning it the right way.

Rest in Peace

[Snapshot]

CWB,
well said mate, sleep well.
Snaps

[Night NVG Goggles]

Capt Widebody
I have relatives and friends working in the financial district of Manhattan. Fortunately for myself and my family all are safe and phsically well, although it did take many hours of anxiety to actually hear that they were alright. I fully agree with your points, but it does make you think why after previous atrocities that have befallen the UK, in particular the Omagh bombing. Why do we still have to pussyfoot with Republican/Loyalist terrorists over such matters as weapon decommissioning? Terrorists have no place in our society! Either join the human race and hand over all weapons or be treated as a terrorist and have justice brought upon you!
Thousands have been killed and maimed in the island of Ireland. We have seen enough, as have the Americans!
My thoughts are with the families of the missing in NYC and DC, and to the friends that my brother will never see again.
Rest in Peace

[X-QUORK]

Wise words Capt WB, my sentiments exactly.

Whilst it would be deeply satisfying to make someone pay for this atrocity, civilisation takes a step back when the "Eye for an eye" priciple is applied. I don't like the term, but Western governments needs to take a more holistic look at the problem of World terrorism, think about their foreign/economic policies and consider if they're likely to encourage more bin Ladens to take up arms.

In the near future I hope the US/NATO can establish who was responsible for the events in NY and Washington and teach them a very hard lesson. In the medium to longer term the World needs to do some soul searching and decide if we want to live together or bomb the sh*t out of each other until The Big One.

[RVR800]

Capain WB I also agree with your sentiments

This is a turning point - we can either go down the intelligent route (yours) or the knee jerk response cyclic

You are right about the tragedies in other parts of the world as well, Indonesia Cambodia, Rwanda and the distance issue.

Its also true to say that technology and security can play a part in reducing the risk but with the suicide bomber one can only do so much.

We need to address the causes of crime..
Why are these people so full of hatred?

[floppyjock]

Night NVG Goggles.
You talk about pussy footing around with Republican/loyalist terrorists.

I believe our government has been doing this in the past because they are **** scared of what the rest of the world will think of them.

Bush has said we should now go after the terrorists, their supporters and the country protecting them. Perhaps now we can do something about the problem.

However I don't think we will see cruise missiles taking out Crossmaglen or flying through downtown Dublin on CNN, do you ? (We are far to civilized for that, so lets hit the Arabs instead). Plus it will only upset the American IRA supporters.

Which brings up another question. What is the American government going to do about them ? If they don't do something, then I guess you could call it a form of racism.

If we want peace with the Arab world the only way to do it is to stop supporting Israel. Ever time Israel attack, all the Arabs see is US supplyed attack aircraft using US supplyed missiles. No wonder they hate the West so much.

Iam by no means an Arab sympathizer but I can't help but think this is something we have brought on ourself.

Floopy

PS if the reserves are called up can I get my old job back please

[SPIT]

I have to agree with FLOPY letter. If the US incident had happened in N Ireland the perp's would probably be given some community service or if they were imprisoned they would let them out to appease some organisation? The yanks have got the RIGHT ideas. :rolleyes:

[Capt Widebody]

It was interesting and quite reassuring to see so many people, representing and speaking for such a diverse background voicing similar views to those here on Question Time last night.

I truly don't think that anyone wants more war, death and destruction. Those who feel angry and upset enough to want to physically hit back will not be swayed to think otherwise, of that I am quite sure. They have every right to feel anger, and in their situation I would probably feel the same. But such vengeance will be only a short-term emotional crutch, along with some sort of twisted elevation of Western national pride.

I don't believe that any of the kids in the USA who walked into schools and killed their schoolmates really wanted to kill people and then kill themselves. These were the last desperate acts of young people so ill-at-ease with the society they were in that they thought there was no point in doing anything else. A final cry for help and a desperate last statement from those too weak or alone to solve their problems. If you think I am being simplistic in drawing parallels between this and the huge fractures in our world society, then I am doing it for a reason. The schools didn't just employ armed guards and install airport style security at the entrances; they looked long and hard at the driving forces behind the violence, the reasons for upset, and started counseling those at risk.

The biggest issue here is not one of physical security, tit-for-tat retaliation and proving a point. Ultimately it is about adjusting foreign policy, learning to understand, and compromise. We will never see global peace in our lifetimes; since civilisation began we seldom have. But it doesn't mean we can't at least make a better effort than we have been. Even surgically removing those behind terrorism will be of limited benefit. Bombing Afghanistan and even taking out bin Laden to solve the problem would be like giving an aspirin to a dying man. We, the western civilised world, would feel better for a while, but it won't make the problem go away.

Swift and firm justice is certainly required in the short term. Let's hope it is true justice, without the death of more civilians. The military hard line will only provoke more violence.

Floppy & NVG, you use the term "pussy footing" with some disdain, but in dealing with such sensitive issues and short fuses I believe that this approach is often necessary. Compromise is not a word that one presently associates with the aftermath of the tragedy in America. Ultimately compromise and understanding is the only way to reduce or irradicate the presence of terrorism in the world.

I wonder what those silent people of Bradford and the Ardoyne road were thinking about at 11am today?

[Stan Woolley]

Capt Widebody

Your post gives me hope.
Thanks.

[Jackonicko]

An intelligent thread where it's possible to talk about the underlying ME/Israel problem - to talk about the victims of terrorism elsewhere - and all without being harpooned as an anti-American anti-semite? Am I dreaming?

See US tragedy thread.....

An intelligent solution, IMHO, would be to follow a two-track approach. We must be tough on terrorists, and tough on the causes of terrorism - including the over-selective application of UNSC resolutions and the support of Israel regardless of its actions and activities. If the West and esp. the USA could be seen as 'friends of the Palestinians', any retaliation for this week's outrage would be much easier for the Islamic world to bear. And we'd be doing the right thing.....

[Captain Kirk]

CWB,

You have my vote. Nice to see a reasoned and considered post with genuine sentiment.

Jacko - the US tragedy post degenerated as a direct result of your poorly timed and adversarial first post. Your well researched subsequent posts were on the back side of the drag curve.

I am not afraid to participate in a military response but, with CWB, I would rather bequeth a stable world to our children than see this violence perpetuated - perhaps this really is a turning point. Let's hope so.

[ 16 September 2001: Message edited by: Captain Kirk ]

[Samuel]

For some reason the "Tragedy" column degenerated into irrelevence, not perhaps helped by my altogether too flippant (or overly subtle?) suggestion for Jacko! I am led to believe however that he is a journalist, and therefore unlikely to be thin-skinned.

This is one of the most despicable acts of terrorism since that ugly word entered the lexicon.The human cost of this monstrous crime is incalculable. The long term consequences, once the United States has recovered from the initial shock, hardly bear thinking about. The madmen who initiated this act, presumably in the belief they were doing Allah's work, have plunged an already unstable world into a crisis of frightening proportions.

There is however, a certain irony in the albiet totally justified US outrage, in that the mayhem perpetrated on innocent civilians by the (in part) US-funded IRA has, until now, been relegated to the "not our problem" tray.

I am nevertheless deeply saddened by the event, and my heartfelt prayers go out to all Americans.

[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: Samuel ]

[twistgrip]

CWB,

I am at one with your heart - you say you are not religious, but your theme was espoused by Jesus 2,000 years ago - and by many, many good people since - a good proportion of whom have ended their lives horribly. What you are discussing is the age old question of Good v Evil.

You are delaing with human beings and their disputes - from the small, petty hatreds of the village gossip machine to the unimaginable hatreds which inspired Tuesday's carnage. To try and change this is as worthy as it is impossible - as long as there are human beings on this planet. If the States changed its policy, threw Israel to the wolves (in the nicest possible way) and commenced the largets hearts and minds operation ever mounted in the Middle East, there would still be bigots, racists and dictators willing to sacrifice lives for their own ambitions. And I don't by any means limit that statement to the Middle East.

You, as you say, are in the Armed Forces to act as a deterrent - and you would, if necessary, risk your life for that principle.
But please accept that there are others who do not give away other lives on a matter of principle.

Now let's imagine that the targets last Tuesday were nuclear power stations. And let's imagine they were successful. Even just a few years ago most rational people would have agreed that whereas the thought was feasible, the reality would probably be confined to a Tom Clancy novel or Hollywood. Now........?

Secondly, lets imagine you and your family are dying from radiation poisoning, along with thousands of others.

Thirdly, assuming you had the time or the inclination, would you write as you have just written?

Or would you have decided, albeit rather too late for your family, that there is now a very real need to combat these killers with all the lethal means at our disposal?

If there is to be any harmony - and I hope there will be with all my heart - it should be on the agreement of means world-wide to do just this.

Good v Evil. You are a good man - you obviously accept that there are evil men - just accept also that in this world there will always have to be a means of destroying them.

[DESPERADO]

CWB,
Understand and agree to an extent with your sentiments. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all live in harmony (I wouldn't have a job mind you, but I am sure I could find something to do). However, I guess that like a few others I am a little more cynical.

I don't believe that the human race is ready willing or able to accept peace at this point in its evolution, there will be wars long after we and our children are gone. This problem is not going away. If we appease the Palestinians and come down hard on the Israeli's there will be other, cultural, political or religious issues that take over and the cycle of violence will continue.

I realise that revenge/retribution, whatever you want to call it is unlikely to stop this from happening again, and it certainly won't stop the extremists, but what else can you do? When you go into a war you really shouldn't expect the opposition to lie down and surrender, we wouldn't, so we should be in no doubt that this is going to take some time. That doesn't necessarily mean that we shouldn't fight. At some point you have to stand up and fight back. I'm not really arguing with your points, I just don't think that we have a choice than to hit back hard.

Unfortunately, as you say, the violence then continues and innocents will continue to be killed. Its a mess and thats beyond doubt, I can't think of an answer. God (Christian, Muslim, Jewish) help us all.

[BARABUS]

1.People in the West like driving cars.
2.Cars run on petrol.
3.Petrol comes from oil.
4.Lots of oil comes from Saudi Arabia.
5.Lots of Westerners are in Saudi Arabia to help extract the oil.
6.For Muslims, the first and second most sacred sites are in Saudi Arabia.
7.For some Muslims the Western presence in Saudi Arabia is a threat to the Umma (worldwide Muslim community).
8.A Muslim should defend the Umma if it is threatened from outside (Qur'an).
9.Some from 7. take this extremely seriously.

[Red Snow]

Finally the world is to stand up to terrorism. If only it were not in such tragic circumstances. But one question nags me...

Will the new crusade be carried through with the same conviction if it is found that the terrorist money trail leads into the upper echelons of, say, Saudi Arabia or the Emirates?

I hope that it would, but military action against Afghanistan or Iraq is an 'easy' option to choose for the politicians, and I wonder how US resolve would stand up if action (in whatever form) had to be taken against our stated allies and major suppliers of oil?