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glasairflyer
3rd Dec 2009, 14:09
I am a Brit who lives and flies in France. In my view one of the best places for GA in the world. I am sorry to say that the greatest danger one is faced with are arrogant Brits.

You see, they continue to land at airfields where there is no English service. This is fine if they could speak French, but mostly they cannot. On landing, even after nearly causing a near miss they continue to believe that English is the 'universal aviation language' and it is their right to land wherever they wish.

If French pilots wish to fly abroad, they have to pass a quite hard English exam. Being bi-lingual, I give courses at several flying clubs.

May I remind Brit flyers that they can only land at airfields with English service unless they are sufficiently proficient in French to make and understand radio calls. These days, things are being hardened up and if any Brit arrives illegally, they are quite likely to be given a French test which if they fail, a large fine ensues.

We welcome foreign flyers provided that they do not present a serious threat to local air users. We are fed up with finding G reg planes flying circuits in opposite direction and ignoring local traffic in circuit.

herman the crab
3rd Dec 2009, 15:47
Isn't it an ICAO requirement to speak English? If so then maybe it's not the Brits who are being arrogant...

HTC

jonkil
3rd Dec 2009, 16:03
Maybe they are suffering from ADHD, seems to be quite common with pilots... well so we're told on some forums !

You're right, English is the 'universal aviation language', but still no excuse for landing and not being able to chat the local lingo !.. Imagine trying to order a burger and them not knowing what one is saying... I suppose we could always make a "Moo" sound.

skydriller
3rd Dec 2009, 16:20
Isn't it an ICAO requirement to speak English? If so then maybe it's not the Brits who are being arrogant...

NOT at an aerodrome which is clearly marked in all the flight guides and in the French AIS as "Francais Seulement/French Only" You are expected to make all calls in French at such aerodromes.

Generally, aerodromes with full ATC will speak English. Those with A/G will require you to speak french.

This is unfortunately not limited to Brits though. There was a guy on Saturday poling around near Bordeaux making calls in Spanish....My French friends at the aeroclub noted ironicly that if he was speaking English at least I could have done an impromptu translation for everyone....:suspect:

1800ed
3rd Dec 2009, 16:22
A lot of the smaller French airfields will only speak French to you, but you'll have studied the AIS info for the airfield before the flight and already know that before departure, right?

Brendan Navigator
3rd Dec 2009, 16:26
Isn't it an ICAO requirement to speak English? If so then maybe it's not the Brits who are being arrogant...



According to ICAO the language used shall be the language of the ground station or English.

To comply with that ICAO requirement, International French Airports can use English in R/T if required. The rest of the time they can use the local Language.

Pilots visiting France should remember tat there is an ICAO requirement for "Language Proficiency" and not "English Language Proficiency". That means when flying to an aerodrome where the Language for R/T is French Only then the Pilot needs to hold a French Language Proficiency Certificate to use the radio.

Ask a Non-Enbglish speaking pilot to show you their licence - they will have language proficiency in both Local language and English.

Viv le difFrance,

Brendan

glasairflyer
3rd Dec 2009, 16:27
"Isn't it an ICAO requirement to speak English"

I rest my case.... It is a requirement to speak English for all pilots who fly outside of their own country and of course those who fly in countries where English is the local language.

I would have thought that those who subscribe to this forum had at least a modicum of airlaw but it would appear not to be the case.

Those who do not respect the rules of flying abroad in countries who have different native tongues deserve all they get and I just hope ytou do not take any local flyers with you.

Recently I met a G reg Bonanza who landed at the wrong end of Quiberon because he could not understand the French calls. Sadly it was I who had to abort my approach.

arrogant even in this forum and typical responses of Brit flyers overseas

I will not bother again to warn you

soay
3rd Dec 2009, 16:27
Isn't it an ICAO requirement to speak English?
Not at airfields with "FR only" on their AIS entries. Some, such as Perigeux, will switch to English on demand, but be French only during the ATC lunch breaks. I'm surprised anyone would venture into France without reading up on their rules and regs.

herman the crab
3rd Dec 2009, 16:42
It was a simply question! As someone who has never flown in France and probably never will I haven't bothered to check what the requirements are their. And when I took my airlaw I don't think languages were mentioned - but it was over 13 years ago.

Thank you for a polite explanation Brendan :ok:

HTC

IO540
3rd Dec 2009, 16:58
If flying from the UK to France, the flight must land at an International airport i.e. one with Customs. All such airports have ATC which must be able to speak English.

After that, if doing internal flights, one can encounter airports which are non-international and there one needs to speak French.

This is why I avoid non-international airports, everywhere outside the UK :)

vee-tail-1
3rd Dec 2009, 17:12
At non controlled airfields the French use a common frequency 123.5. Pilots should prefix their calls with airfield they are intending to use, and listen out for calls from traffic at that airfield. That way you get situation awareness long before arriving, and so should know wx, cct direction, r/w in use etc. To just barge in blind and do some idiotic British OHJ is at best rude, at worst suicidal. Of course you must have adequate French knowledge, or stay away. :hmm:

hoodie
3rd Dec 2009, 17:28
In your initial post you make a good point, and it is one that we Brits should take seriously.

I will not bother again to warn you

However, as well as your advice, thank you for also providing a handy example of "arrogance" to help with our understanding of the definition of same.

glasairflyer
3rd Dec 2009, 17:36
"However, as well as your advice, thank you for also providing a handy example of "arrogance" to help with our understanding of the definition of same. "

Point taken but perhaps it is indicative of the intense frustration we have due to this issue.

I work an English service for our local airfield during summer when I am not flying myself. This concludes 12.00 hrs Sunday. After this time, the Brits just do not use our frequencies and land anyway. In 2009, we have had 9 near mid air collisions.

We now call the police and push for prosecution.

It is only luck that there have not been more fatalities

I would remind Brit flyers that it is the responsibility of the captain to ensure that they are knowledgable in air law when travelling abroad...it is not the responsibility of the host.

The constant repetition of "English is the international aviation language" has become more than just a mild irritant.

Johnm
3rd Dec 2009, 17:42
S'ils parlent lentement et clair pas probleme!:hmm:

Jodelman
3rd Dec 2009, 18:12
If flying from the UK to France, the flight must land at an International airport i.e. one with Customs. All such airports have ATC which must be able to speak English.

Abbeville?
Amiens?

mary meagher
3rd Dec 2009, 19:05
glasairflyer, you are absolutely correct. 20 years ago I did exactly what you warn against, insufficient french to understand what the local traffic was saying, and ended up nose to nose with a Cessna. I saw him and avoided him and frightened him badly, met him on the ground and made abject apology, and received a friendly briefing on the useful terms.

When in Rome.....

BEagle
3rd Dec 2009, 19:08
Unfortunately, pig**** thick digi-yoof of today has never seen the need to learn a 'foreign' language. Largely due to it's habit of holidaying anywhere it can ask for "Beer and burger, Manuel" and not be served a piano and a small horse.

Surely it is only politeness, regardless of the rules, to make an attempt to converse in the local language. I don't think that "'allo, allo, je suis Golf Alfa Good Moaning, un Pay Ahh Vingt Huit de Calais a votre place de vol" is quite sufficient, but perhaps better than rien?

Top tip - arrive at lunchtime, roughly 1130-1530. Because during la bouffe, there is bugger all likelihood of any leetle froggy fellow being at the microphone when he could be stuffing his face with steak frites!

Don't do what a chum once did at Abbeville. "It is nice to be here, my father used to fly here", he said. "Vraiment? Quand?" asked the official whilst wiping the lunch from his moustache. "Oh, he flew the Hundert Neun from here in 1940....."
"I wish to see your CofA, aircraft radio licence, VAT certificate, interception procedures.........."

Oops!

glasairflyer
3rd Dec 2009, 19:21
While we are at it, information services such as Paris Information are for giving INFORMATION. They are not the least interested or wish to be told position, course, squawk, altitude etc etc etc that Brit flyers always want to tell them!

bookworm
3rd Dec 2009, 19:45
While we are at it, information services such as Paris Information are for giving INFORMATION. They are not the least interested or wish to be told position, course, squawk, altitude etc etc etc that Brit flyers always want to tell them!

While I have every sympathy with you appeal against arrogant Brits, the above is not strictly correct.

AIC 2005_07 (https://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/dossier%5Caicfrancea%5CAIC_A_2005_07_EN.pdf) says:

CONDITIONS TO BE FULFILLED TO BENEFIT FROM THE ADDITIONAL INFORMATION PROVIDED AS PART OF
THE FLIGHT INFORMATION SERVICE WITH RADAR VISUALIZATION
In order to benefit from flight information provided by the FIC with radar visualization the following conditions apply:
• the aircraft must be equipped with a transponder mode A + C (or mode S level 2 at least) with alticoder,
• the pilot flying under VFR must:
- At the first contact transmit to the FIC all flight data necessary for the supply of flight information with radar
visualization to operate in the FIC area. This particularly includes the call sign, type of aircraft as well as the aero-
drome of departure and arrival;

I would have thought that giving position and altitude were obviously necessary to receive a radar service.

wsmempson
3rd Dec 2009, 19:59
I have to say, It really is fun being lectured on arrogance by a frenchman. Quite delicious....:}

Justiciar
3rd Dec 2009, 20:30
Drove there in the summer and spent a very pleasant hour in the sun outside the bar watching aeroplanes come and go. Cheapest beer in Brittany :ok:

hoodie
3rd Dec 2009, 20:31
wsmempson: You didn't read the first line of his first post, did you? :}

vee-tail-1
3rd Dec 2009, 21:21
Fly in France (http://flyinfrance.free.fr/)

Check out this site before you even think of flying to a local French airfield. :)

eharding
3rd Dec 2009, 21:26
wsmempson: You didn't read the first line of his first post, did you? :}

Indeed, it would appear so.

The OP is a Brit living in France. Hence, you can forgive him for being a bit grumpy.

QDMQDMQDM
3rd Dec 2009, 21:42
If we're talking arrogance in flying then let's not forget the near ubiquitous use of French on the R/T by French airline pilots flying into CDG and their ATC colleagues, meaning all foreign airline pilots have not a clue what they are saying.

Set against that the odd monoglot Brit bimbling into a pissy little grass strip with bugger-all traffic doesn't look so bad, does it?

Tim Dawson
3rd Dec 2009, 21:44
I have always assumed that the amount of French one would need to be proficient at, in order to conduct operations in and out of a small French airfield, would be not very much. The amount of English used to converse with English A/G stations is, after all, minimal. I would have thought that if you knew your numbers, and things like "runway" "left" and "right", and a few other likely words, you'd be most of the way there.

Ou Non?

ChampChump
3rd Dec 2009, 22:01
The problem for many Brits is not the amount of French they can muster to get themselves in and out of the circuit, but understanding the locals on the radio, especially if the airfield is on 123.5.
It's one thing to order a meal in a restaurant, but understanding what's going on for les rosbifs, especially without the benefit of face to face communication, becomes too much for some.

The French have every right to expect the courtesy of French where it is published to be in use.

eharding
3rd Dec 2009, 22:01
I have always assumed that the amount of French one would need to be proficient at, in order to conduct operations in and out of a small French airfield, would be not very much. The amount of English used to converse with English A/G stations is, after all, minimal. I would have thought that if you knew your numbers, and things like "runway" "left" and "right", and a few other likely words, you'd be most of the way there.

Ou Non?

I think you've identified a perfect enhancement for the next version of your product there, Tim - "SkyBabel" - a high performance translator for aviation terms, wired into the navigation software - as soon as "Flight" senses you're approaching a non-English airport, a set of menus offering two-way translation of the most likely phrases pops up in the Windows Mobile device, together with a list of contact numbers for legal advice.

You could make an absolute killing with that - especially for the non-English speakers wanting to operate in the UK.

Bags I you let me define the French -> English translation terms though....because you can then look forward to a horde of French accents explaining to London Information that their "hovercrafts are full of eels", just before their "nipples explode with delight".

vee-tail-1
3rd Dec 2009, 22:42
See my post above!

Warning

If you don't speak French, there is no way you can learn it, even aeronautical French, on this web page. Knowing a word doesn't mean that you'll be able to understand it when it is yelled on the radio, or that you'll even be able to express yourself so that other pilots will be able to understand what you say. Don't cheat with yourself, with your safety and with other's safety. If you don't speak French, don't use airfields where radio is mandatory and radio in French only is allowed. Unfortunately, this represents most of our airfields. See the Airportspage (http://flyinfrance.free.fr/apt/apt.htm)for more details.
If you speak French fluently, it is up to you to decide whether or not you feel confident enough to venture into r/t in French. Again, don't cheat with yourself, and in case you doubt, don't do it. To test your ability, 3 ways in this page. You just need a Real Player for that. The player is downloadable for free, clicking here : http://flyinfrance.free.fr/radio/getfree.jpg (http://www.real.com/products/player)

eharding
3rd Dec 2009, 22:57
If you don't speak French, don't use airfields where radio is mandatory and radio in French only is allowed. Unfortunately, this represents most of our airfields.

Hang on, just a cotton-picking minute.


Location: Pembrokeshire UK


If you're about to tell us Welsh airfields are also declaring a "French-only" policy, then I'm a Dutchman.

Cusco
3rd Dec 2009, 23:06
deleted: That'll larn me to read the entire bleedin' thread before hitting 'send'

Cusco:rolleyes:

TheGorrilla
3rd Dec 2009, 23:22
Wasn't it the french president who said "every frenchman has a god given right to speak french when in france"? This was a well constructed argument when the Air France pilots started refusing to reply in french to a french controller, when given an instruction in french.

The result was several near misses at CDG (which I suspect would have killed more than the 9 in your local field). I personally saw one of these, AF lined up with an Aeroflot on finals at 100-200'. Thanks to the quick reactions of the IL76 pilots they got away with it. The Aeroflot crew then ignored all subsequent transmissions from tower, flew a tight circuit and landed.

There is no substitute for looking out the darn window no matter what language you're using. Personally I enjoy flying non-radio. It avoids having to speak to arrogant people - like french controllers.

stickandrudderman
3rd Dec 2009, 23:24
Oh go on, tell us what you deleted! Si vous plait?:ok:

TheGorrilla
3rd Dec 2009, 23:34
http://www.pprune.org/canada/86875-french-atc.html

eharding
3rd Dec 2009, 23:48
Oh go on, tell us what you deleted! Si vous plait?:ok:

He unwisely said he likes to dress up as a Frenchwoman and talk in sultry, alluring tones on the radio to unsuspecting Englishmen.

Probably.

Slopey
4th Dec 2009, 00:52
I flew down to St Omer for the Jodel fly in (but we were in a C172) this year, and thankfully, through a modicum of French at school and a cheat sheet, we had no problem making the calls or understanding the basics of others in the circuit along with a very very very good lookout. Although that was pre-arranged, and there were a large number of UK flyers coming in for the event.

However, on the way back across the channel there were a couple of French pilots whose RT was absolutely disgraceful to the point the very busy ATC chap told one of them to just shut up until he called them again - didn't work and he stepped over another 4 people in succession (after doing it 3 times already).

Goes both ways...

Tim Dawson
4th Dec 2009, 06:35
The notion that I should be fluent in French to fly to a small French airfield is rubbish. There are plenty of pilots I've heard on the radio in England with poor English. These are both PPLs and ATPLs (probably doing their IRs). Air traffic controllers slow down and make extra effort to be clear, to accommodate these poor English skills, and so do I, as another pilot on frequency who wants to make sure I'm understood too. At the end of the day, they know enough to get by, and they'll improve.

I see no reason why the same accommodation wouldn't be made in France.

Then again it's a well-known fact that if you speak English only LOUDER they're more likely to understand. BREAD! I want some BREAD!

skydriller
4th Dec 2009, 08:22
In the summer months, I am increasingly finding myself using French to talk to my family in Supermarkets due to the embarassement factor of the odd "Brit Abroard" charachter wandering around talking loudly, so I try to go incognito...:rolleyes:

Guys, Please dont make me have to pretend to be French in the air?

Our aeroclub is a typically friendly french affair, especially to visiting Brits, possibly due to myself being in residence and the couple living there having served several exchange postings in the UK with the FAF. But I must say, that in the last couple of years there have been a few incidents which raised eyebrows at the club, and the following stick out in my mind as they caused much hilarity st the club....

...like the guy that attempted to land a PA-28R on the 5m x 100m Aeromodellers runway (he actually touched down!!:ooh:) instead of our 900mx30m grass runway the other side of the ditch - how do you do that if you have looked at the airfield plate!!:ugh: ......And the gaggle of microlighters which pitched up and caused havoc in the circuit & parking on the ground, then asked if there was a chateaux close by they could visit - a club member offered to show them around his place, offered wine tasting, gave lifts to hotels etc., and none of the dozen of them bought even one bottle of wine (that is the height of faux pas around here!!:eek:) off of the guy.

And honestly, I think the Wine rejection raised many more eyebrows than the PA28 incident!!!!:}

OK, Maybe the initial poster was a bit harsh, but in all seriousness, British pilots dont want to start getting a bad rep here in france like some other sections of the "great" British public when abroard, do they?

You definitely DONT need to be fluent in French to visit the smaller French only airfields here. But please read the airfield plate and make calls saying who and where you are, and what you are doing, in French!! If the frequency is busy, how about trying to figure out what is going on before just blundering into the circuit with a OHJ? If you wouldnt do it in the UK, why do it abroard?

And finally, if you do F*ck up, for godsake say sorry !!!

TheGorrilla
4th Dec 2009, 08:22
There are plenty of pilots I've heard on the radio in England with poor English

Mostly with american accents??

Genghis the Engineer
4th Dec 2009, 08:23
It's so easy to feel considerable sympathy for the OP's point.

Except that I then wonder if I am supposed to learn German to fly over the border to there, Switzer-Deutsch for then a lunch stop in Basel, Flemmish for a stop in Belgium on the way home.

I work in aviation, and I travel a lot - this year clocking up 8 countries, in all of which I was working at airports. Aside from my native English, and reasonable French, which other languages should I start on? And where should I compromise my other skills currency to concentrate on languages.

My parallel, I was working in Switzerland this year for a while, and having some reputation in Jiu Jitsu I was asked to go and do some teaching at a local club, which I did.

Did I do this in Switzer-Deutsch? - no, I don't speak it. Did I use English? - no, most of them didn't speak it. I taught in (very limited!) Japanese, which worked fine.

I suspect that if I was a professional chef, I'd probably travel the world working in French.


The fact is, fields need common languages - constrained almost certainly to a narrow vocabulary - but it needs them anyhow. In aviation, it does seem to be English.

Yes, I'll make an effort when I fly to France to know French RT calls, and not to screw up - but it's wrong that this should be necessary.

G

TheGorrilla
4th Dec 2009, 08:24
And finally, if you do F*ck up, for godsake say sorry !!!

That doesn't just apply to the english!

hatzflyer
4th Dec 2009, 08:31
I spend quite a large proportion of my foreign flying time in France.Indeed some of my best trips ever have been in France.
I have never had anything but good vibes from the French, and consider the guys at St Omer ( ref. previous post ) as my second family.

I have never yet had to speak French on the radio.

And then this ex-pat comes on saying that he " pushes for prosecution".

Entente cordial at its best....what a nob.
:ugh:

TheGorrilla
4th Dec 2009, 08:33
ICAO Chicago convention reference to language:

ICAO | FLS | FAQs (http://www.icao.int/icao/en/trivia/peltrgFAQ.htm#24)


Note:

pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations serving designated airports and routes used by international air services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground.

Fright Level
4th Dec 2009, 09:19
If we're talking arrogance in flying then let's not forget the near ubiquitous use of French on the R/T by French airline pilots flying into CDG and their ATC colleagues, meaning all foreign airline pilots have not a clue what they are saying

As QDM says. I've always been amazed by the arrogance of French speaking controllers/pilots in busy controlled airspace (France, inc CDG etc, Canada and Africa) where use of exclusive use of French language between pilot & controller causes almost everyone else on frequency a loss of SA. Several reports of incidents at CDG refer to this as a cause but the language barrier remains.

jonkil
4th Dec 2009, 09:21
I have very rudimentary French, I have flown in France, I have landed at small French airfields... never really had a problem... but knowing some of the calls help. This website helps... see HERE (http://www.francoflyers.org/2008/03/french-radio-ca.html)

skydriller
4th Dec 2009, 09:47
To Fright Level, Gorrilla, and all those who keep talking about CDG, Orly or Africa....You are discussing a whole different thing, And no it isnt very proffessional, AF pilots I have contact with definitely agree on this point.

But then The Aeroflot crew then ignored all subsequent transmissions from tower, flew a tight circuit and landed. isnt very proffessional either is it?


Here we are talking about tiny GA strips where there is no ATC, they are the equivilent of Popham in the UK (except with way less traffic) . Usually there is no AG either, just a common frequency where everyone self announces what they are doing, just like Unicom in the USA. There are plenty of Airfields with ATC in France where they will speak English to you.

TheGorrilla
4th Dec 2009, 10:47
Doesn't matter. If your small airfield is busy enough to require an air traffic service, the same problems arise.

The reason the IL76 crew ceased transmitting was probably for two reasons.

1. They nearly crashed and probably were scared.

2. They were p1ssed of with the very poor standard of CDG ATC.

Aviate
Navigate
Communicate in english
Communicate in your native tongue, which for these gents is russian - they undoubtedly would revert to it in times of high stress. Therefore saying nothing was probably better than swearing down the radio in russian.

Cusco
4th Dec 2009, 10:56
Quote:
And finally, if you do F*ck up, for godsake say sorry !!!

That doesn't just apply to the english!

Too right:

Like the F reg numpty arriving at Duxford in the morning of an Airshow (and you know how busy that can be) a few years ago announcing ' Final for 06' when the rest of us were in the active circuit for 24 (about 4 in the circuit and one on final for 24.)

Seemed like an age before he cottoned on to the fact that the FISO's message inviting him to consider going around was for real.

Did he apologise? Certainly not on frequency he didn't.

Thread creep: do I detect an element of 'holier-than-thou' self righteousness among all these ex-pat Brits branding Brits flying in France as 'arrogant?'

And denying your birthright so as not to be confused as a Brit: Reminds me of my son's ex in-laws (Brits from NI) who always cranked up the Oirish accent to another level when in France to avoid being taken for Brits.

What's wrong with being a Brit?

Oh and before you ask I spent a formative year living/going to school in France many moons ago so have a good grasp of the language.

Cusco:ugh:

vee-tail-1
4th Dec 2009, 12:05
<< What's wrong with being a Brit? >>
Taking that as a general query about Brits abroad: Its to do with 'visibility'.
We in UK are familiar with loud Americans (loud in dress, in speech, and in culture or lack of) but we also recognise the less frequent quiet ones.
Same in Europe, some Brits are VERY visible, and some effortlessly merge with the local populace. Sadly we now have a new generation of Brits who are like aviating Alf Garnets... xenophobia with union jack underpants! :bored:

Piper.Classique
4th Dec 2009, 12:12
Well, you can always go either to an airport with ATC in english or somewhere where radio is not required.......
Look at windsock, signals square, other traffic, and get on with it.

24Carrot
4th Dec 2009, 12:28
Jonkil thanks for the francoflyers link.
I especially liked "remise de gaz" (putting the gas back on) for "go around".

The Gorilla's post quotes some ICAO stuff requiring French Language proficiency to be "demonstrated".

Does this mean a test and some stamp in the licence, or is the ability to speak French and understand and use the crib sheet enough, as as been suggested here?

In France there is usually enormous tolerance toward those whose "face fits", but if they wanted to throw the book at you for some reason, what is the requirement?

Fright Level
4th Dec 2009, 12:39
skydriller said Fright Level, Gorrilla, and all those who keep talking about CDG, Orly or Africa....You are discussing a whole different thing

I was simply countering the OP's post that said "I am sorry to say that the greatest danger one is faced with are arrogant Brits".

I am disagreeing. As a regular visitor to France (on a commercial & private basis), the French pose a bigger risk to life by refusing to speak the international language of aviation. This is more arrogant and dangerous than the risk glasairflyer attaches to les rosbifs turning up at a local field sans parlez Francais.

SpeedbirdXK8
4th Dec 2009, 13:09
Arrogant, Moi? The next time one lands in France offer to pay by cake!:\

mary meagher
5th Dec 2009, 16:51
Why does a xenophobic brit wear union jack underpants? seems like total disrespect for the national emblem to me.....

TheGorrilla
5th Dec 2009, 17:08
The Gorilla's post quotes some ICAO stuff requiring French Language proficiency to be "demonstrated".

It says english or the language used by the station on the ground. This differs from the requirements of the ATCO, if you read it carefully.

24Carrot
5th Dec 2009, 17:12
Thanks! You are right, I hadn't read it properly.

TheGorrilla
5th Dec 2009, 17:12
Fright Level, I've been to other airfields in France too. Not just the big ones. Using CDG as an example has relevance. It is scarily busy and therefore the problems are magnified.

Neptunus Rex
5th Dec 2009, 17:23
Many moons ago, I was 20 minutes astern of my Flight Commander, who spoke fluent French, en route Malta to Ice Station Kilo. Having been listening out on the appropriate French ATC freq, and having heard several transmissions 'en Français,' approaching St Tropez the boss made his initial report in impeccable French. The snotty reply from French ATC?

"RAFAIR XYZ, today on ze airways, we speak Eengleesh!"

Chauvin was a Frenchman, and is still alive and well in 'La Republique.'

http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/francais.gif

austerwobbler
5th Dec 2009, 18:51
"Do airline pilots who fly to dozens of different countries have to be able to speak in dozens of different languages" :confused:

Austerwobbler

IO540
5th Dec 2009, 19:12
No, they speak English, as do the ATCOs.

ATC english proficiency is highly variable though, and in many places (even in Europe) is a total joke.

The important point however is that, at an international airport, while ATC should speak English, not a single other person needs to. So if you try to e.g. contact the operations office regarding PPR, etc, this can sometimes be tricky.

Johnm
5th Dec 2009, 19:42
We should never have let 'em have Calais and Bordeaux back it's given 'em delusions:bored:

skydriller
5th Dec 2009, 20:51
We should never have let 'em have Calais and Bordeaux back it's given 'em delusions

Dont worry, some of us are taking (or at least buying)the place back bit by bit....:E

englishal
6th Dec 2009, 00:48
I haven't read all of this thread, but it strikes me that the French can often be very arrogant about matters like this for no real reason. To have a pilots licence a pilot MUST be able to speak aviation english. I can get by in French but would not trust my French on the RT in an aviation context, it strikes me as dangerous. As such I have not bothered to go to any small french airfields.

But is a French person expected to learn Norwegian when the fly to Norway? Are they expected to speak German in Germany? etc...

A friend of mine got into a bit of an arguement with a french person who refused to speak english, even though he could. The ironic thing was that my mate was Norwegian and spoke good english but no french. The french bloke was being an arrogant t**t. In fact around the world you see foreigners speaking together in english because IT IS a common language. They are also exposed to this language daily in most countries, with the likes of CSI Miami etc.

My auntie is french, my mum is danish, my uncle is danish, my cousin is english living with a french girl in Montpellier, the other one is married to a swiss girl living in Austin, my other auntie is russian and my english uncle lives in france, and I work mainly in Norway but have worked in every continent bar antarcica. The common thing is that all of them speak english.

A and C
6th Dec 2009, 16:23
The reason why the French won't speak in anything other than French is a cultual arrogance that seems to be taught from birth and despite the writing (six foot high in English!) on the wall they just cant get over the attitude that France is exclusively for the French and the rest of Europe should be the same way.

Eaxample. Last year I was employed by a UK airline on contract to a German airline working a French airline contract based in Lille.
When this became common knowlage a local newspaper started an investigation, the main thrust of this was French job protection. I had a brief chat with the investigating jorno and his attitude was that "something had to be wrong or illegal because the pilots were not French".

I pointed out to him (with a wry smile) that we all now lived in the United States of Europe and that this was governed from Brussels, the result was that we could all life and work in any part of Europe. This came as somewhat of a shock when he realsed that the EEC was "bigger" than France, not run by France and that the French had let the EEC cat out of the bag and worse could not put the cat back!

It was great fun flying the skys of Europe with a French cabin crew in the French all electric jet with a "Starway" c/s.

As "Starway" is a French airline French was the usual responce from ATC and I was getting quite good at understanding ATC commands in French, this only Re-enforced my opinion that the use of more than one language for ATC is a flight safety disaster in the making.....................Hell if the biggest nation on the planet (China) will comply with the ICAO standard languge why cant a the French.............. now thats what I call arrogance !

PompeyPaul
6th Dec 2009, 19:51
I find if Johnny Foreigner isn't understanding English then you should just shout what you're saying louder. Remember what Whicker said "Don't try and speak to them in their language, it'll immediately put you on the back foot".

Wise words. Tell 'em you want a basic service and if they don't understand, well, you know, aviate, navigate and laugh off the communicate.

BackPacker
6th Dec 2009, 20:18
Here's one for sternone.

In fact around the world you see foreigners speaking together in english because IT IS a common language.

In Belgium you sometimes see Belgians speaking English because it's their only common language.

(No, I'm not kidding. I work for a multinational company who merged the Dutch and Belgium departments. Even when the Dutch are not present, this is something that happens regularly.)

Squeegee Longtail
6th Dec 2009, 22:58
...In the context of the original post, the Brits may be accused of 'ignorance' in not speaking French, but the word 'arrogance' is reserved solely for the French. It is a national pastime in which they pride themselves.

There has to be a common language around the world for various applications, flying being but one, and it irks the French no end that it is not their language.

They are also of the opinion that they (the French) liberated France in WW2, with the Allies merely there for support. They just can't bear to tell it as it was! Pride, Ignorance, Arrogance? You decide!!

TheGorrilla
7th Dec 2009, 02:20
no, wasn't me! I didn't call in the heavy weights! Didn't start the fire either!

Justiciar
7th Dec 2009, 08:09
I can't say I recognise some of the descriptions of France and the French here. Most of the time I find that, although my French is fairly good, it is very difficult to stop people speaking English to you once they realise where you come from. I would say that the French have come on tremendously in the last 20 years or so and language never seems to be much of a problem now.

Are there arrogant French? Of course. But, for unfriendly, surly monosylabic grunters you don't need to look any further than good old England. Only the English can regard politeness and good service as evidence of some serious character defect.

hatzflyer
7th Dec 2009, 08:34
union jack underpants????..small potateos..http://acsto.photos.free.fr/phpwebgallery/galleries/Fly-In_Jodel/2007/CBeese/parkings_CB_DSC_0048.jpg (javascript:phpWGOpenWindow('./galleries/Fly-In_Jodel/2007/CBeese/pwg_high/parkings_CB_DSC_0048.jpg','10704832734b1ccb7e1a52b','scrollb ars=yes,toolbar=no,status=no,resizable=yes'))

Southern Cross
7th Dec 2009, 10:35
From my limited experience touring around France, its simply a matter of politeness to speak as much French as you can in order to fit in with the local traffic. It is absolutely pointless to rant about English being the laguage which they SHOULD be speaking. The fact is that if one wants to go there, and one has read the plate for the airfield noting the French must be spoken either all the time or outside of ATC's published hours, those are the rules, so play by them. There are plenty of larger airfields in France where English is spoken all the time so use those if your French is non-existent, or poor.

I am not particularly fluent in French, but seem to get by with a handful of phrases and by paying attention to the published procedures, the current wind, and keeping the good look out to avoid meatbombers, gliders and other circuit traffic.

I have often found that my French elicits English "clarification" from local pilots anyway, almost all of whom speak far better French than I speak English. Or, and this seems equally likely, one lands to find that you are the only traffic in the area anyway - yet another immaculate French airfield so under-used and so friendly particularly if you happen to be in need of some kind of assistance.

I don't personally think it is at all arrogant to insist upon French at some airfields. I wish it wasn't the case because it does cause me embarrassment at my lack of liguistic ability. But I cannot get upset about it. After all, it is my choice to want to go there in the first place...

SC

Flyingmac
7th Dec 2009, 10:39
On approaching a small German airfield I called them in English. The guy in the tower immediately switched to using English, as did two local pilots in the circuit. On departure the same thing happened. On leaving their zone I thanked them in German for their hospitality. The reply was in English.

TheGorrilla
7th Dec 2009, 11:08
Hatzflyer,

Where can I get one of those? Fantastic! :ok:

hatzflyer
7th Dec 2009, 11:53
St. Omer, at the jodel fly-in every year. They love it and even donate bits,it has even featured on the front cover of the RSA magazine. Thats an old pic, this year had swimming pool (piscine) fishing gnome and ducks!
At this rate I'll need a DC3 soon!:ok:

Keef
7th Dec 2009, 11:59
Never had a problem with French folks, apart from in Paris (and they're like that to each other, too - it's not anti-foreigner). Most places are supremely friendly.

I did have a very nasty scare at Toussus, though. There are two parallel runways, and I was lined up on final to 08R (or whatever it was) when another aircraft crossed directly ahead of me (and scarily close) to line up for 08L. He and ATC were speaking very fast, in French, and I had no idea what was happening. There was no warning, and I did tell ATC - with the response "Yes, monsieur, he's landing on 08L". That was a while ago: these days, I'd have filed an MOR.

IO540
7th Dec 2009, 12:18
I was cleared to land right base at Le Touquet, and a French pilot in a Robin was cleared (in French) for left base, at the same time.

We missed by a very small distance - under 50m.

hatzflyer
7th Dec 2009, 14:17
See...I told you flying was more fun in France!!

733driver
7th Dec 2009, 18:40
Hmmm, a lot of people here are saying that English is "the" international language of aviation and as such should be spoken everywhere.

I may be wrong but I seem to remember that this particular ICAO recommendation applies only to IFR flights.

The ICAO document specifies a number of ICAO languages (French, Russian, Spanish, Chinese (don't know if Cantonese or Mandarine or both)etc). It also says that in countries where the first language is not English, the alternative shall be English. However, all this only applies to IFR flights if I remember correctly.

I know German (uncontrolled) VFR airfields where AFIS comms are in German only and that's according the AIP. Lot's of others are GER/ENG

So the French are really not a special case.

It's a shame, but that's the way it is. I wish English was the only language in aviation but it is not.

vee-tail-1
8th Dec 2009, 08:02
Just to wind things up a little :)
Here in Wales we sometimes have a bit of bother with the English, most of whom can't accept that this is a part of Britain where the first language is not English.
Next time I am on A/G you just might get FIS in Welsh :eek:

hatzflyer
8th Dec 2009, 08:20
That will not make any difference ! I can't understand English spoken with a Welsh accent anyway! :ok:( merry Christmas!)

yakker
8th Dec 2009, 08:22
most of whom can't accept that this is a part of Britain where the first language is not English.

The most convenient source of statistics to hand is a survey published by the Welsh Office, Arolwg Cymdeithasol Cymru 1992: adroddiad ar y Gymraeg published about March 1995. It showed that 21.5% of the population of Wales (590800 people) speak Welsh; this divides into 32.4% of 3-15 year olds, 17.8% of 16-29s, 16.7% of 30-44s, 18.7% of 45-64s and 24.2% of over 65s. 55.3% of them (326600, 12% of the population) are first-language speakers, meaning someone who spoke more Welsh than English as a child at home. 13.4% of the population of Wales claims to be fluent in Welsh, and 66.1% claim no knowledge of Welsh at all.

So the main language in Wales is English, and the minority speak Welsh.

Tim Dawson
8th Dec 2009, 08:43
Maybe we'll all have to speak Cornish next time we fly to Bodmin.

hatzflyer
8th Dec 2009, 09:12
Yew ol buoys had be'rre look owt next tym yewre in norrrfolk!

yakker
8th Dec 2009, 09:59
Hatz, say again......

Flyingmac
8th Dec 2009, 10:15
Fishbang, how's your Gaelic?

hatzflyer
8th Dec 2009, 10:24
Have you noticed most of the ready meals from Tesco's have far too much gaellic in them?

( but whats that got to do with flying in France?)

Oh...just twigged!!! They smuvver evryfink in gaellic two!

Cusco
8th Dec 2009, 10:46
Whatever it is that you're on, Hatz, can you tell me how to get some?

Cusco:rolleyes:

TheGorrilla
9th Dec 2009, 00:40
Maybe we'll all have to speak Cornish next time we fly to Bodmin.

Fine, just leave the leather skirts behind.

B47
23rd Feb 2010, 16:50
I plan to meet up with friends at Quiberon airfield in June. I've read all the posts and I know that Quiberon's AFIS has the notation (FR) on the airfield chart. I know and respect that I should speak French to visit this airfield but all the warnings are not to try and get by with poor schoolboy french and a brush up of RT phrases. I'm not arrogant about speaking english - just sadly incompetent in french.

So, if I take the info as it stands I can't visit this airfield. My friends are staying at the hotel on the airfield boundary and there isn't an alternative airfield.

Quiberon seems to have accommodated several large fly-ins with visitors from all over Europe so it's a bit hard to believe that all the visiting pilots were proficient in french R/T.

Do I stay away and cancel the whole trip or is English tolerated in practice? I've emailed the airfield to ask if I'm welcome but no reply as yet.

Any advice, particularly from anyone who has visited this airfield, would be very much appreciated.

neilgeddes
24th Feb 2010, 07:34
Hi, flew into Quiberon last summer as part of a Cabair trip. AFIS happily spoke English to us and were very helpful:) It's a beautiful location - just watch out for the numerous parachutists and jump planes!

Cusco
24th Feb 2010, 08:55
I've had a couple of trips into Quiberon over the years: Always been able to speak English in the circuit.

Interestingly when I googled their website, there has been a subtle change of name of the aeroclub and the website revision dated 2009 no longer has anEnglish or German translation which I am sure there were before.

Menacing sign of the times?

PS While you're there a quick nip across the water to La Baule is a worthwhile trip.

Cusco

sternone
24th Feb 2010, 09:31
France is a beautiful country, to bad they have the French living in there.

Learn a second language, basic pillow talk English is not that difficult. 40% of the Belgium's are French, most of them refuse to speak another language, and especially not Flemish who is spoken by the majority of the country, not even our Queen find it needed to speak a few words in Flemish. It has something to do with the 'laziness of the French'. Why do we Flemish people speak 4 and most French only 1 ? Get over with it. The world has changed, people speak English in international affairs, not French. Having a local rule that makes airports French speaking only in 2010 is beyond decency and as you stated yourself, safety limits.

Not only the Brits speak English on their RT. If the French are really concerned about the safety aspect they would do like almost everybody in the world does: speak English while radio communicating in the air.

It's not the British arrogance, it's the French arrogance.

B47
24th Feb 2010, 09:46
Neilgeddes and Cusco,

Your advice is much appreciated. Thanks to you the whole trip is back on!:D

mad_jock
24th Feb 2010, 10:15
Its dead easy to get the french to speak english.....

Just start the conversation in German and they very quickly swap to English and by then they have played there cards and can't then play the I can't speak english pish they so love to do.

hatzflyer
24th Feb 2010, 11:40
On the basis of I would never go anywhere that they would let me go, I may go to Quiberon too ! :E