View Full Version : Townsville Refueller Correct! REX Wins

2nd Dec 2009, 04:10
REX won the routes out of Townsville off Westwing Aviation.:eek:

Skytrans keeps the rest!

Townville Refueller once again on the money!:D

The Green Goblin
2nd Dec 2009, 04:21
There is a classic example of looking after an Aussie company.

At least Skytrans are going to survive now!

2nd Dec 2009, 07:30
Hmmmm, the most I've seen on that 1900 out of TL in the morning is 11. Exactly how subsdised is it? Good news about Skytrans though.

2nd Dec 2009, 09:09
J3 and Green Goblin,

The only Australian company, Westwing missed out.

Rex is a Singapore Company, and Skytrans is no longer owned by David and Sue Barnard, its now a PNG owned company and has been for quite a while.


The Green Goblin
2nd Dec 2009, 10:14
Bloody disgusting then........

Have WW still got work for the 1900s?

2nd Dec 2009, 10:18
didn't realise Skytrans was doing it tough ..

story is here .. Qantas, Rex & Skytrans pick up Queensland regional routes | Australian Aviation Magazine (http://australianaviation.com.au/qantas-rex-skytrans-pick-up-queensland-regional-routes/)

Flying Bear
2nd Dec 2009, 10:47
I think that you will find that Skytrans is owned in it's entirety by the Wild family - who do have some business interests in PNG but I can assure you are quite Australian!

Best thing is - it's also a Queensland company and from what I can see around the area it contributes to the communities it flies through - so I can't imagine there's been (entirely) a Government plot to oust locals.

It's probably a case of the numbers not stacking up in Westwing's favour. The B1900 is a terrific aircraft, but is horribly expensive to operate in comparison to Metro's, etc.

2nd Dec 2009, 20:39
Dash 8 is hardly more expesive to operate than a 1900 actually..raytheon need to pull there heads out of their a*#es. The plane would probably still be in production if they could get their parts price travesty under control!!

(and the pt6 overhaul costs are ridiculous for an engine that is so common everywhere)

Justa Dash
2nd Dec 2009, 23:04
Flying bear is 100% correct re Queensland family ownership of Skytrans, with mum born in Cooktown few could argue differently

2nd Dec 2009, 23:16
Townsville Refueller Correct

I don't remember saying that. :confused:

2nd Dec 2009, 23:47
I'm always right, except when I'm not :ok:

3rd Dec 2009, 01:05
Okay, we have an imposter. ;)

You may well be the ''TownsvilleRefueller'' but you are certainly NOT the ''Townsville Refueller'', there is ONLY one of them on PPRuNe since around 2002 or so. :ok:

my oleo is extended
3rd Dec 2009, 02:02
Townville Refueller once again on the money!:D

TSV Refueller is always on the money !
He/She( dont want to reval any identity := ) is an icon of accuracy, a true source of intellectual gossip and invariably an absolute 'font of knowledge' !

3rd Dec 2009, 02:11
TSV Refueller is always on the money !
He/She( dont want to reval any identity ) is an icon of accuracy, a true source of intellectual gossip and invariably an absolute 'font of knowledge' !

Of course I am, thank you........ :ok:

my oleo is extended
3rd Dec 2009, 02:21
Of course I am, thank you........ http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Aggh yes, I forgot to mention your determination to 'preach from the book of true facts' for all Aviation followers to embrace, your zest for 'truth and accuracy' within the aviation fraternity, your passion and 'want' of accurately educating those 'not privy to the inner sanctum of reporting excellence' !
You are a true master of your craft, and inspiration to to the business, a 'doran of knowledge', in fact you are the 'Yoda of knowledge' !!!

Now, go forth and seek out for us more 'nuggets of information' and share with your brotherhood.........

3rd Dec 2009, 02:55
OR......... I just think it is wrong to misquote people, or pretend you are someone else. :ugh:

There is ONLY one ''Townsville Refueller'' on PPRuNe, PLEASE do NOT wrongly quote me, I mean him. ;)

3rd Dec 2009, 05:43
Wouldn't of happened if Barney was still running Skytrans!!:ok:

3rd Dec 2009, 18:58
Rex/ Pelair are subject to a CASA Special safety audit - Ref CASA media release 23 Nov 2009 following the ocean ditching of a westind jet near Norfolk Island.

Rex is owned by an Singapore company is it not.

Skytrans Dash 8 landed Mt Isa Wed with a prop feathered.

No point in Qld Governmnt claiming doubling of seat capacity as justification. The pax numbers are just not there. Macair couldn't do it with 35 seats.

What realy went on in the tendering process. Did the perceived need to provide competition for QL on Qld regional routes determine the outcome?

3rd Dec 2009, 23:05
Maybe the fact that QLink dropped their fares by over 80% on Townsville to Mackay when REX started the route is an indication that the parts of QLD without decent competition are being ripped off. ;)

Capt Fathom
3rd Dec 2009, 23:43
If airlines charged what they needed to break even on a per sector basis, then none of us could afford to fly!

Rex would be losing money on that particular route. But include it as part of the overall network, it's all revenue into the (Singaporean) coffers. Yield management!

As far as competition is concerned, passengers will benefit short term. Then sanity will return!

3rd Dec 2009, 23:46
Yeah, as well as doubling services...

I really wouldn't be game to get into a face-saving price war with the Singaporeans.

3rd Dec 2009, 23:51
Anyone want to take odds on how long this new arrangement will last? :E

4th Dec 2009, 04:46
Alright my bet is:
About as long as it takes for LKH to realise that the QT subsidy will not help when you are flying a S340 with B200 loads. My guess is that they will be back to QT for a subsidy hike within 6 months

4th Dec 2009, 05:37
Come the end of July 2010, and REX are on your doorstep looking for a boost up, have a look at how your Election Promised 100,000 jobs are going when you dump QLD companies in favour of, shall we just say, others :=

4th Dec 2009, 06:49
Skytrans used to regularly do the TL-all stops to - Isa for Macair, in a B200, and never had full loads.

5th Dec 2009, 04:07
Rex could use its low cost subsiduary Pelair to fly the routes in their metros and call it Rex light, or rex connect!!!!:yuk: and of course heaps of pilots would put their hands up to fly them. the race to the bottom continues:mad:

6th Dec 2009, 03:14
So does anyone know if Rex intends to employ more pilots to cover these additional routes?

6th Dec 2009, 05:16
Three direct entry captains were employed earlier this year and cadets are being trained up now to be the first officers.

6th Dec 2009, 08:36
Did the Townsville Refueller refuel the Avro Anson aircraft of Townsville & Counrty Airways Pty Ltd who pioneered the route REX are about to take over? No doubt the SAAB 340B aircraft will be more comfortable than the Anson but not as exciting to fly in!

8th Dec 2009, 13:27
Now now Complete. 3 DEC's is a slight exageration. REX do not employ DEC's as such. The Letter Of Agreement for the townsville base allowed REX to employ (on a temporary basis) a limited number of Pelair (ex Macair Captains) to fill whatever position wasn't taken up by the current REX captains. 3 Command positions were available, of which current REX captains took 2, and one "DEC" from the aforementioned airline filled spot number 3.

What's interesting however is if the company plans to use the LOA, after all it is for the Townsville base, to employ more "DEC's" to crew these new services? It will of course depend on whether any more serving REX captains take up the offer. As only 2 put their hands up last time, I think it's safe to bet that few, if any, will be forthcoming this time. At least that's probably what the redundant ex Macair captains would be hopeing.

Now don't get me wrong, The retrenched Macair guys have done it tough. I've been there (more than once!), But be carefull. REX will use the LOA to crew these services if necessary, and they will use it just as quickly to throw you back onto the scrapheap. I was never happy with the LOA, and I told the REXPC that. If REX needed experienced pilots for their Townsville ops, then they should have offered employment to these guys directly into REX. Offer the base as part of the upgrade process, and before too long the experienced guys will leapfrog back into the LHS. Believe me, REX has been gutted of so much experience over the last 2 years, upgradeable F/O's are very thin on the ground!

But REX are hedging their bets. And the FEDs and the REXPC allowed them to do it! The REX "DEC's" have a finite shelf life. charming!

AS for the TL - all stops - ISA Jamair, I had to read it twice myself. It's been a few years since I've been up that way, but Jesus! Julia creek, Hughenden! In a SAAB!! I dunno man, would have to be some pretty decent subsidies on that run. You won't get many Punters jumping on the milkrun for TL - Isa and visa versa. They'll go direct with QLink. I know I would.

Anyway, it'll probably be a moot point if, sorry, when REX lose more "experienced" drivers. They're flat out crewing their existing services as it is. Interesting times ahead.:sad:

9th Dec 2009, 05:03
I know of quite a few ex MACAIR Saab crew, still sitting around doing "work for the dole" and other SLJs, just to put food on the table, who would love to have a go with REX or Pelair out of FNQ! Or any where else a base was available for that matter. Lets hope they get a call up soon! Seems REX did not want to know about these guys when they sent in apps. What a waste of good experienced crew, who would probably show quite a bit of loyalty and remain with the company for many years to come. :confused:

9th Dec 2009, 07:27
Krusty, the all-stops Isa was only every done by CC metros. The SAABs did TL-ISA-TL or TL-CNY-ISA-TL (morning) or TL-ISA-CCY-TL (evening) and when I was there they were almost always full.

9th Dec 2009, 10:27
travelator, Macair started using Saabs for all their QT runs including the TL all stops ISA run about five or more months before they went under. And yes even on the metros the seats were never full. Just another reason why west wing's B1900's would have been more suited for the job.:ugh:

Nose wheel first
9th Dec 2009, 10:58
Maybe they intend to run the Metro on the milk run to Isa again..... they had a Metro parked on the main apron at Isa yesterday for a couple of hours. KDO I think it was....

Give me the 1900D over the metro any day.... you can actually stand up in the 1900 (if you're not too tall), you can fit in the seats without having to be a contortionist and it is possible to hold a conversation without having to shout.

9th Dec 2009, 11:19
Rex's media report on their website says they'll be basing a fourth saab in Townsville to cover these runs so I doubt the metro in Isa is a part of it. I am curious though as to what that aircraft is doing there. I thought jetcraft were the only operator that flew metros to isa.

9th Dec 2009, 11:34
Nose Wheel, just for clarification, what's the average fuel burn for the tl-hug-rmd-jlc-isa in a 1900D vs a metro. Just curious.

Soar. KDO and KAN are the last two remaining Pel-Air metros, for ad hoc charter etc. I doubt it would be a regular thing.


10th Dec 2009, 20:36
Rex won the contract on the basis of Saabs for the next 5 years. They also guaranteed to have a backup Saab available. Obviously QT went for the 33 seats, FA and toilet and were mindfull of the cancelled flights and poor on time performance from the Macair debacle. To substitute anything else with less capacity would breach the contract conditions.

11th Dec 2009, 01:13
5 year contract eh? Guarenteed backups!

So what remains to be seen is how much from Peter will they rob to pay Paul!

11th Dec 2009, 04:08
Guaranteed backups in contractual terms means penalties for late departures.

The Penalties increase with time. It can mean the contractor pays the government for a really late departure!

This applies to all 3 operators, not just REX.

11th Dec 2009, 05:33
All very interesting twodogs'.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall at the board meeting when REX begin cancelling flights on their southern (profitable) networks because of a lack of crew. Not only due to the looming exodus of Captains and the last remaining upgreadable F/O's, but also because crews are now tied up on unprofitable routes in QLD!?


11th Dec 2009, 14:13
FWIW, here's one of the B200 FLT PLNs for the TL-MA milk run...


+FORMA 5500|F180|240 90| 28
YHUG/2300 4700|F180|240 81| 20
Total 171| 48
YRMD/2345 2800|A080|240 63| 17
Total 63| 17
YJLC/0030 2100|A080|240 78|21
Total 78|21
YBMA/0230 3400|F140| 240 125|35
Total 125| 35

Shortest sector was 17min, longest 48min. Gunna be busy in a SAAB....:ooh:

wombat watcher
11th Dec 2009, 18:03
Any busier than it was for TAA when they did it daily in the F27? I think they has Cloncurry in there as well.

11th Dec 2009, 20:07
Rex already have sectors of that lenghth on their current network, so that aspect of it shouldn't be too much of a problem Jamair. What'll really p!ss the crews off will be the length combined with the frequency of the day! But nobody really cares about that.

Hot off the press though, starting Jan 31, REX will also be offering direct services TL - ISA - TL in the mornings and evenings, with an overnighting SAAB at ISA to facilitate a more business friendly schedule. As well, a Sat Morning service ISA -TL followed by a return on Sunday evenings to allow a "...quick weekend getaway at Townsville..." Gunna' be busy!

Now don't get me wrong, I think expansion is great for all concerned but if you don't sort out your crewing issues boys, it'll once again end in tears, be it for the QLD operations or for those punters further south! :{

Nose wheel first
11th Dec 2009, 23:42

Is it possible that Pelair crews are going to play a role in the TL-ISA flights in their various forms? The rumour is that some time last week (with the Metro) REX went out to HUG, RMD, JLC and ISA and handed out Pelair business cards and associated paraphernalia.

Could REX operate the flights utilising Pelair crew but still call it a REX operation? What RPT AOC issues would that raise for Pelair (as far as I can tell they don't hold a pax carrying RPT AOC ..... happy to be corrected though)

If it is all run by REX.... where are they going to get the crew?????

Edit: Do REX have their sights set on the remaining Macair boys and girls who haven't yet found another job thinking that will be a ready-made answer to the potential crewing problem? ..... if indeed they do acknowledge the fact that it will stretch their crewing resources.

12th Dec 2009, 04:43
Your're right NWF. A "road trip" of sorts was conducted by REX management last week, and I do believe it was in a Metro. The RPT ops however will be conducted by SAABs, and the REX AOC is the only one endorsed for RPT on that aircraft. I'm not sure how that sits from a commercial point of view, but I think to sell seats as REX, using REX A/C, the AOC has to be REX not Pelair. Even if the Pelair AOC is endorsed for RPT ops. (something that may not be as straightforward considering recent aquatic events!) As far as the ex Macair pilots are concerned, REX should employ every one of them without delay. For this thing to work, they will need all the experienced pilots they can get. The chalenge will be hanging on to them. :E

Of course they won't. I reckon they'll try to "employ" the Captains they need under the Letter of Agreement. There appears to be a significant amount of resistance to recruiting Direct Entry F/O's at the moment. Probably a hangover from the difficulty they experienced finding suitable candidates in the recent past. As a result REX are only interested in Cadets! (they know too well they won't be going anywhere in a hurry). That may, and most likely will change, but in the meantime, I'm at a bit of a loss as to how they'll make it work, especially once the major airlines start recruiting again.

As far as the LOA is concerned, it's possible REX may have shot themselves in the foot. My understanding, as it applies to the Townsville base (all these ops will be based in Townsville), the required command positions must be offered to serving REX captains first. If no REX captains put their hands up then the way may be open to "employ" DEC's on a temporay basis. Bearing in mind that these people must satify all the REX Check and Training criteria! Then at the expiry of the LOA (in around 12 months) these pilots may be offered a position at REX on the bottom of the seniority list as F/O's!! A real can of worms down the track.

I mean really, is it too hard just to do the sensible thing in the first place?

12th Dec 2009, 05:02
I mean really, is it too hard just to do the sensible thing in the first place?

too hard? or too expensive?

13th Dec 2009, 00:24
What do ex Macair SAAB captains have to do to get a job with REX? I know of quite a few that sent emails, updated online, posted CVs etc, and have not heard squat back from REX HR/recruitment/ management.:ugh:

13th Dec 2009, 02:32
Who knows pistanbroke? Perhaps they're still paranoid that no sooner will they employ them, they'll be off to the majors when recruiting gets back into gear. Considering it's REX policy not to offer anything, ANYTHING! to encourage people to stay, their fears are probably well founded. :rolleyes:

Also don't forget Northern route 1. TL, Winton, and Longreach. How many aircraft will the TL base now require? My guess, remembering the TL - Mackay run, at least 5, and that doesn't take into account the mine Charters! For the RPT alone, I would estimate somewhere in the order of 18-20 pilots, half of whom will be Captains!

I can hear the hair being pulled from crewing's scalps as we speak!

13th Dec 2009, 07:27
Krusty, if REX gave the ex Macair SAAB captains a gig, I don't think that you would see these blokes disappear off to the LCCs etc when the next flood gate of recruitment opens. They are all at least in their middle years, and have spent too many years in the left seat, to be bothered sitting in the right of a shiny new jet with a young 'whipersnapper' tellin' them how they should be doing it. They are also pretty well settled in FNQ with houses families etc. I imagine they would contribute some great experience to the operation, and help breed the next generation of kids into the future LCC fodder that will be required in the coming months. I reckon REX would get alota blood from these guys to see them out.:ok:
And another thing. How come REX don't publish any T&C's in their web recruitment? Not that it matters really, 'cos we all know the pay (whatever it is and wherever you are) will never reflect the skills required!;)

Curved Approach
13th Dec 2009, 08:54
Where the Company goes from here with crewing issues is anybody's guess really.

However on reading the LOA "TSV REGIONAL EXPRESS START/TRIAL AGREEMENT" again a few times I would hazard a guess that this base is now well and truly deemed to be a permanent Rex base. And I'm of the understanding that the Company definitely wants to keep it as a Rex base and not the Pelair brand.

Side note for your info: very easy for Pelair to apply to CASA, Bankstown Office not Canberra, to have passenger RPT on the SAAB put onto their AOC, they just need to walk in the door with copy and paste from the Rex model and CASA will tick the boxes.

So one would imagine that TSV will be opened officially as a base and as such the LOA will cease "upon commissioning of a permanent TSV base, permanent positions will be advertised and awarded to Rex pilots based on seniority at that time............". The secondment clauses thereafter only apply to relief start up command positions

This is all good and well but from where are these upgradeable FO's coming from ...... I guess if you are an FO at Rex at the moment unless you are prepared to take a TSV base then you sit in the RHS

13th Dec 2009, 11:48

Mate, I couldn't agree more. Chr!st only knows what planet REX HR reside on. Mind you, I think many of these policies are derived from a single source, with the "management" types nodding their heads in servile agreement.

Gidday Curved'.

Definitely interesting to see what happens at the expiry of the LOA! As far as the few remaining upgradeable REX F/O's are concerned, I don't think many will stay in the RHS for too much longer, irrespective of what bases are on offer. That is of course if they choose to hang around.:p

24th Dec 2009, 04:12
Townsville - Mackay to finish 1st Jan

Display Media Release (http://www.rex.com.au/MediaAndPressClippings/ShowNews.aspx?Site=IR&nid=231)

mates rates
24th Dec 2009, 22:47
There must be 100's of Saab Captains overseas who would be happy to live in sunny Queensland.Remember the laws invoked by Hawke in 1989 are still on the book.And with another labour government in power it's easy!!Just bring in the foreign pilots again!!

Bloody Blind Bat
25th Dec 2009, 01:08
mates rates,
you may be right that a qualified Saab Captain would give up the world to live in Qld and experience the Aussie lifestyle.....BUT.....

REX will not pay true market rates for such experience, clearly seen by the drain that has already happened and the second wave to commence in a few weeks, which will be crippling, to say the least.

Their roadshow in EU drew zero candidates and the roadshow to SA got them half a dozen FOs, all of whom have applications in for their Aussie residency so that they can apply to a real airline. Not one will stay a day longer.

Cadets will never get command, morale is low amongst them (and everyone else for that matter) and the flight deck environment will continue to be an unhappy place in REX.....Even cadets have quietly sent in hopeful applications to VB and JQ after being online for a very short time!! But why shouldn't they?

So why would someone want to relocate and uproot when he is on a much higher wage, and can visit sunny Qld for a nice long holiday anytime he wants, instead of putting up with disgraceful wages, disrespect from management, low experience, low morale, old equipment, cultureless environment and everyone itching to leave?

Krusty has predicted well regarding Qld and REX's lofty expansion ambitions. Wait another few months and more routes will fold up even before they can find their feet. REX has to realise that their ONE golden resource is their staff at the frontline, upon which their success should be built on and stem from. Too little too late I am afraid. The wheels have fallen off.

25th Dec 2009, 20:59
So Townsville-Mackay will end on the 1st Jan 2010, and the new northern route services will not commence 'till Jan 31st? Should be a nice little holiday for the 3 TL based Captains.

Not sure whether the assigned TL F/O's are even on base yet. If not, then line training in the southeren states maybe, or perhaps some shuttleing back and forth.

If you guys (TL based F/O's) have been assigned, make sure you check with the union to make sure you are not disavantaged regarding accomodation/DTA if you are forced to train away from your home base.

Logistical nightmare! :rolleyes:

29th Dec 2009, 04:15
So it looks like Rex is moving from a one Saab RPT ops in Townsville to a two Saab RPT ops in Townsville. N1 & N2 = 1 Saab and Mount Isa to Townsville = 1 Saab, excluding any Pel-Air activity.

From a simplistic viewpoint it looks like Rex is expanding and I think the Northern routes are contracted until March 2013?

29th Dec 2009, 05:39
From a simplistic viewpoint it looks like Rex is expanding

Others would say it is struggling (in NQ).

29th Dec 2009, 13:06
What do you mean 100s of SAAB captains sitting around overseas, what about the poor buggers still without work here in Oz, particularly FNQ. And even then their is not enough work around. When will we stop promoting overseas interest in our jobs! They don't let us go to EU or the States, why should we let them come here!

29th Dec 2009, 13:11
How long can REX afford to sit in FNQ with light loads? The population density is not great enough to support the amount of operations starting up. Except for FIFO work, somethings gotta give. Or will it be Skytrans to bite it next? And Rex will move into their operations?:confused:

6th Jan 2010, 12:15
So what's the go? QLK reducing TL-MK frequency now RXA gone? Hope they are chasing the ACCC hard.......

Going Nowhere
6th Jan 2010, 21:28
Normal Xmas/New Year slowdown. Full schedule seems to be back on from Monday... :rolleyes:

double efato
15th Jan 2010, 23:14
-Rex has moved a 4th sab to TL, 2 on mine charter, 2 for rpt.
-Rex crews only on rpt. LOA capts are starting to come on line, the first passed check last week.
-Rex appear to be squeezing the TL base into a rex mould, morale heading south despite the base being pel air's smoothly run gig all year (fax speed dial #1 not being the right number apparently a big deal, ground crews being shuffled around to working for contracters and away from pel air, etc)
-Rumor is that casa is getting stuck into rex/pelair over pelair drivers not conforming to rex c&t (largely nonsense they all use the same SOP's), and the empire builders in rex are clapping hands with glee at the prospect of bringing pelair saab drivers into their domain. The cost of recheck would be shocking, and the rex yoke would probably cause a lot of pelair drivers to quit.


16th Jan 2010, 04:49
and the rex yoke would probably cause a lot of pelair drivers to quit

The REX yoke is already getting a lot of Pel drivers to look around, if REX get C&T there would be a mass exodus. Everyone is up to standard using ex REX checkies so where is CASA's problem?? The paperwork is knee deep for anything as per REX standard to keep Baxter Rd employed, ah fun times. :ugh: :mad: