Art Work In The Mess

[spindrier]

I am trying to acquire some original artwork for the mess. The current displays are either prints or too shoddy for words. Rumor has it that there is a store somewhere. Does anyone know if this is true and if so where it is? Many thanks in advance...

[FJJP]

When a mess closes, all the silverware and valuable articles (inc artwork) is sent to a vast central store. I don't know the details, but handbrake house should be able to give you the details and acquiring procedure.

[deeceethree]

Onceupon a time all this stuff was stored at Quedgely? I don't even know if it is still there.

Be careful what you take in to the mess - insurance is an issue these days.

[spindrier]

Many thanks for the replies. Quedgely (sp?) closed a number of years ago. I will try handbrake house, but I suspect that this level of corporate knowledge may no longer be available.

[Diablo Rouge]

The hidden treasure is mostly at MoD Stafford nowadays I believe. I know of one RAF Mess that has a priceless work of art by a famous official war artist and the staff have no idea what it is they walk by each day never mind insuring it for a realistic price. The only clue to location is that it is not a flying station and most residents are very short term visitors. The subject matter is a Lysander.

[FJJP]

Don't worry about 'corporate knowledge'. There are procedures for applying for artifacts from the store.

Handbrake house should be able to find out and brief you on the procedures. Don't be put off by individuals who don't know - they can do research and find out for you.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Suggest you contact your Loggies rather than the Admin types. It is their world that controls the storage side of things. There are procedures (possibly JSP886 now) for loans etc. I know there was a couple from the Mess Cttee on a previous Unit took a trip up to Stafford to see what was on hand.

[Kittty125]

I seem to remember that the RAF Museum at Hendon has an extensive art collection that can be borrowed. You might try them.

[Diablo Rouge]

IIRC the Guild of Aviation Artists members lent Benson OM some artwork a few years ago, not sure if that is ongoing. You could always ask the Armed Forces Art Society The Armed Forces Art Society (http://www.afas.org.uk/) if members are prepared to display their work. The USAF has an art program to promote such things, but the UK Armed forces plc have lost the touch of military traditions. What subject matter are you after?

[orgASMic]

Don't forget to keep the books straight. The Mess property book needs to be filled in with full descriptions ie "painting of 2 Spitfires taking off from RAF Muddle in the Mould by IR Spotter, 45cm by 28cm with brown wood frame" not "Spitfire painting"; include photos of the artworks and keep copies. Your Mess Committee House Member needs to regularly check the collection against the book.

Remember that the insurance can be expensive if you get anything really good by someone famous.

[Pontius Navigator]

Wittering used to have two Shepherd's that were confined to a store room as the paintings of V-bombers was not seen as relevant to the home of No 1 Sqn. Then they found that they were worth £5000 a piece and that 34 years ago!

[Deskex76]

Bentley Priory used to have stacks of Wooton originals, the Nottingham Lace, the Adelaide Room, and, of course Dowding's office. The Mess certainly didn't insure the Wootons in the 1980s (something to do with the artist having agreed to re-paint any of the pictures that might be damaged, I seem to recall), Does anybody know where they are now?

I hope that they ended up on the walls of another historic Mess (unless they are being stored pending a successful fund-raising by the Bentley Priory Trust). To put such a collection into storage would be a great shame.

[Maxibon]

Having recently visited a crab air mess, wouldn't a Banksy sit rather well:}

[Sky Sports]

There is an easier way to obtain some new treasures for your mess!
In true Viz 'top-tips' fashion - simply trawl round other messes dressed as scruffy workmen. When you see something you fancy, tell the mess manager that you are going to remove it for cleaning / restoration / repair. Put priceless art work in the back of your car and have it away.
Worked in the past. :ok:

[Tiger_mate]

Do it yourself, paint by numbers; simples.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2743/4182143464_10d39053b3_o.jpg
Frank Wootton (RIP) would have a job repainting any of his work nowadays. I suspect that the work discussed earlier was a Wootton Lysander painted during the war years and now resident at Halton. IIRC one of the Wittering Shepherd paintings was taken from store for the office of a starred officer at High Wycombe. I would not expect the RAFM to be keen on lending their works although I know for sure, having seen them, that they have some awesome paintings stashed away. Some of the works discussed are already irreplaceable and insurance could only at best cover the cost of smoke/water damage and subsequent restoration as their true value is priceless. Even the original Robert Taylor Chinook at Odiham OM would need 10k+ to replace.

The americans put us to shame on this subject:
USAF Art Program (http://www.afapo.hq.af.mil/Presentation/main/Index.cfm)

[Green Bottle 2]

Try Aldergrove Mess and keep your eyes open for any other Messes that may be closing.

Also the RAF Museum is a good POC for advice as mentioned above.

You could also try seeing if other Messes have artwork that is surplus to requirements - some may have stores of artwork or even the odd painting that needs a new home.

GB2

[noprobs]

Despite the proliferation of Messes there, I think that there are still pictures in store in College Hall at Cranwell. Cranwell also borrows artwork from a local gallery, the Usher in Lincoln.

It is important to keep a good record of what you have and where it goes. When the RAF Staff College closed down, it handed on a lot of kit to Cranwell, including one quite famous and valuable portrait of a senior officer from the past. It took a few years before the Imperial War Museum tracked down and reclaimed the picture, which they had loaned to Bracknell!

I once visited the silver stash at Stafford, which was very impressive. I left with an estate car piled high with candelabra. The policy then was that any anonymous silver was available for any justified claimant, but if it bore a Squadron identity, it was kept in case that Squadron was reactivated at any time.

[Tankertrashnav]

I left with an estate car piled high with candelabra.

Got any of the gear left, noprobs? Scrap silver price is pretty high at the moment so I could do you a good price on the lot. PM would probably be best in the first instance. ;)

[Toddington Ted]

I recall visiting the erstwhile Staff College at Bracknell when it had closed to retreive surplus audio visual kit for Trenchard Hall Cranwell. I remember seeing a considerable amount of very nice antique furniture but the WO who escorted us told us that it all belonged to the Senior Service and would be going to Portsmouth even though a failed liberation attempt had been made by an Army unit who had visited with a similar purpose to us! I don't recall a painting of a very senior officer from the past so not guilty on that one! We did take some very attractive RAF Command badges - Coastal, Maintenance etc and a few other items that we thought would look reasonable in Daedalus Mess but the WO steered us away from a small figurine of an ancient Eygptian deity which had been presented many years ago by (presumably) the Eygptian Air Force as he was convinced that it was cursed. We decided not to take it. Now that I have come to the end of my Service career I suppose I should confess something. I did liberate an aluminium plaque with the words "Brooke Popham Lecture Theatre" on it and its in my office now. I had better leave it there as I'm currently on resettlement!

[Yellow Sun]

Despite the proliferation of Messes there, I think that there are still pictures in store in College Hall at Cranwell.

Well things may have changed but I somehow doubt it. In the dim and very distant past I had on my property book all the paintings and other items of historical interest that were scattered around the college. During my time I had to explain to two Assistant Commandants that there was no vast store of old masters (except for Norman Gunnell and "Dad" Saxby) but only a dusty box room in the west wing filled with assorted junk. If such a store exists today I suspect that it will contain only those items that it is better to shut away forever!

However an interesting aspect of the job was that I held all the files on the subject of college paintings going back to pre-war years. These revealed that at various times some significant artworks; on loan from the great estates; including Gainsboroughs and a Canaletto had graced the college walls. Also of interest were all the papers relating to the allocation of official war artist paintings subsequent to the Second World War. There were a great many of them distributed air force wide, I wonder how many have survived.

Even in the 60s and 70s there were still some interesting paintings in the college ranging from Niemeyer's Boston Stump. gifted by Lord Harmsworth ca. 1974 and the enormous Peter Scott that hung in No3 Ante Room. There were also two works by David Shepherd, are they still there I wonder? There were also four original Bairnsfather cartoons, I wouldn't mind having those myself!

But back to the original topic, items in store will probably only be the rather sad and decrepit that no one wants to see any more.

YS

[Diablo Rouge]

There is IIRC an original David Shepherd Battle of Britain painting hanging in the foyer of OASC. Adjacent the the cheesy semi abstract portraits of recent AFC winners. Read the Shepherd biography and he would have you believe that there is more of his work then the late Eric Day in RAF circles, and Erics work seems to be everywhere. For me, Bentley Priory was the centre of Aviation Art excellence, second only the the RAF Club. I visited BP Mess (FLAC Cse) in the last few months of ownership and photographed pretty much all the treasures within for archive reference. These days it is individual sqns rather then Messes that have the good collections, indicative I believe of how these days the Mess has long lost the kudos it once held. Army Messes seem to be bulging with silverware presented by departing COs, another tradition lost in the light blue circles.

[spindrier]

Dear all many thanks for the info. I will get the house member to chase up the leads you have so kindly provided.

Regards,

Spindrier

[Been Accounting]

Couldn't some of the artwork be put into an exhibition? Is seems a shame for it to be in store.

Is the artwork quality good enough for a gallery at Hendon or the Imperial War Museum?

[Diablo Rouge]

The reason that I was able to see the RAFM display was because they had it out as a specific exhibition on the first floor at Hendon. They do not display it all the time, I am told is due to a) Tealeaves that would have work away versus b) the staffing required to monitor (protect) the collection during opening hours.

My opinion is that the thousands of Galleries around the world cope with the same problems, yet keep the doors open with what appears to be the minimum of human security backed up by electronic surveliance. If the Mona Lisa can be on display I am quite sure that the RAFM Collection could be. It would also add an extra dimension to a RAFM visit.

That said, the last 2 visits that I have made (in about the last 5 years) have both seen aircraft collections (WW1 hangar 'Grahame-White Factory' (http://www.pprune.org/../collections/aircraft/grahame-white-factory-intro.cfm)both times & BofB hangar once) closed to the public. The reason given for having the Graham-White factory closed on both occasions was staffing. Have to say that a visit involves considerable expense & travelling time, and I find that same answer a bit weak if I am honest.

The GAvA have an art display in 1 hangar at RAFM Cosford which changes on occasion. Ronald Wongs work is awesome but balanced by some average to say the least works by others. In the north of england there is the Manchester Aviation Art Group and in the south the Solent Aviation Artists both of whome may be able to provide works of suitable standard and subject for loan to Messes.

[Warmtoast]

There is an earlier thread about The MOD Art Collection here:
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/306669-mod-spending-funds-art.html

[Satellite_Driver]

I'd second the advice given above - document all artwork properly, it's a right pain if you don't and something goes missing.

Also, make sure that valuations are updated regularly (I have a dim memory of every five years or so being suggested) and that this is done properly.

Anyone who stayed at RAF Henlow from the 60s to the 90s may recall the large paintings of the Taj Mahal that used to adorn one end of the Officers' Mess dining room. Every few years they were re-assessed for insurance purposes, with their identification as being by William Daniell and being worth a few £k. Then, around about 15 years ago, a new and rather keener and more observant art expert was brought in to look at the paintings, who apparently got to the Taj Mahal pics and went "***ing hell, those aren't by William, they're by his uncle Thomas Daniell and worth about half a million quid!" Insurance costs meant they had to come down and got auctioned off, which is why Henlow was (and probably still is, unless all the money was in Icelandic banks) very well off as RAF messes go.

Henlow also has some David Shepherd pictures, in the form of small paintings of aircraft associated with the site. In case anyone wonders why they are so small, they were originally painted as place mats back in the early 60s and were used as such for several years until it dawned on someone that people were taking their soup off original Shepherds! Incidentally, when I was House Member there I got to read the artwork file and found that there were originally about 30 of them, but that a dozen went missing in the 1980s whilst in storage when the ante-rooms were being redecorated. Someone, somewhere, has a nice set of David Shepherd aircraft paintings hidden away...

[Truck2005]

On a side from the official mess side of things. During GW1 we were stationed in Bahrain, in the old Maharak buldings, (10 Sqn). We spent some 5 weeks on rotation but before we went some pretty good artwork was put on the walls of the crewroom, (spemer this or that, depending on what happened during that detachment). The morale killers came out and decided that all the walls needed cleaning and redecoration, (it did not conform to magnolia tints), and all the excellent painting was lost. Probably because it did not look like the Diplomat colours!

[Diablo Rouge]

a dozen went missing in the 1980s whilst in storage when the ante-rooms were being redecorated. Someone, somewhere, has a nice set of David Shepherd aircraft paintings hidden away...

An oil painting sketch of David Shepherd that (according to his video) takes him about half an hour retails at approx 10k. Even I can work out that a dozen of these is worth a few bob. My local art gallery had 2 such items (wildlife, wildebeast & lion) about A5 sized and priced at £10,000 each, and the owner reckons that is the going rate with not too much mark up. If the missing aircraft were more detailed then the price would rise accordingly. Worth browsing dusty cupboards at Henlow I would suggest.

[saudih]

I've got a 3ft by 2ft Eric Day picture of 2 Canberra T17's... one inverted "somewhere over the North Sea" A representation of an incident that saw the 2 JP's at the time taking about 30 mins to regain formation.....it's a bit grey and miserable which is a pretty good representation of the reality of the Coffee Charlies.... You can borrow that it you like... anyone have any idea of what a Day circa 1982 work is worth? :suspect:

[sisemen]

When I was OC PMS at Wittering I recommended that the Shepherd paintings (Victor taking off in the rain IIRC was one of them - think the other was a Valiant) not be insured.

This was on the advice of the insurers who reckoned that, for a Mess of our size, it was uneconomic to insure a priceless painting. At the time we had combo locks on the Mess doors and heightened anti-IRA security so they reckoned that was more than enough. Obviously not good enough to stop some greedy 2star nicking them for his personal office.

On another subject, whilst not art per se, I remember a number of steam locomotive number plates from the Southern "Battle of Britain" class adorning various walls when OASC was at Biggin Hill. Whatever happened to them because a genuine plate will go for 25 - 40,000 quid nowadays?

[Diablo Rouge]

More applicable to Army and Navy readers then RAF (having read the text) but this may be of interest to some:

Ministry of Defence | About Defence | What we do | Defence Estate and Environment | MOD Art Collection | Ministry of Defence Art Collection (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/WhatWeDo/DefenceEstateandEnvironment/MODArtCollection/)

I didnt know such a thing existed.

The Ministry Of Defence Art Collection is a fascinating and extensive archive, owned by the taxpayer but often hidden from pubic view behind official walls.

Seems like its hidden from serving members also!

[teeteringhead]

Having recently visited a crab air mess, wouldn't a Banksy sit rather well

......hmmmmm Maxibon .. colourful, forward looking, not hide-bound by outmoded "traditions" more suited to previous centuries, and - for the very shrewd - an excellent investment for the future.

Yes, Banksy will do nicely thanks! ;)

[Boozydragon]

Many moons ago I was Pictures Member at CHOM and had to undertake a stock check of the pictures and discovered that quite a few were on loan from Hendon. I went several times to rotate them with their stock and was amazed at the number available. Get in contact with them and get some on loan. Watch out for the insurance though, CHOM had several on loan which had been borrowed by the AOC & Cmdt for the Lodge to the tune of 35K and you should have seen the look on his face when I told him they weren't covered by his house insurance.!;)

[Wrathmonk]

number of steam locomotive number plates from the Southern "Battle of Britain" class

There were also a number on the inner wall of the archway (can't think what the proper name is - the bit where their Lordships cars stopped so there was no chance of them getting wet between the car and the Mess entrance) at Bentley Priory - they may be the same ones. If so, wonder what happened to them when Bentley Priory closed .....:hmm:

[FlapJackMuncher]

Akrotiri recently had their wide-screen TV removed from the Mess. RMP involved.
I assume it was worth more than any of the paintings, even the special 'ghostly head' picture.

[Diablo Rouge]

A visit here: ..with your speaker switched on.

BBC NEWS | UK | Audio slideshow: War through an artist's eyes (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8044225.stm)

is worth spending 3.5 mins of your life, and the RAF get a look in too. It perhaps emphasizes the importance of remembering or preserving today for the eyes of tomorrow; and for reasons that I cannot quantify, artwork seems to grasp something that the camera cannot.

[bspatz]

A number of years ago I was involved in a study into deployments that required that we visit a wide variety of RAF units and talk to the senior execs to get their views on what was required. As a result I sat in the offices of a number of squadron commanders as well as visting crewrooms and was struck by the wealth of artwork that was around that I was certainly unaware existed and was rarely seen by the outside world. My thought at the time was that there was plenty of good material for a glossy 'coffee table' book of paintings of the RAF - perhaps it is something that the RAFBF or similar might like to consider?

[Maxibon]

Teeteringhead

You're absolutely right - the appreciation in value may just assist in filling a couple of Typhoons' fuel tanks for one last flypast before disbandment. Then we can take the base to put our tanks in when we're brought home from Germany, paint over the Banksy and put up some decent oils.;)

M

[knowitall]

"Then we can take the base to put our tanks in"

what tanks?

the only place they'll be going is the local scrappies :-)

[mckelvey]

I recall not too long ago being asked to look into the same. Can I suggest you speak with Air Command Service Funds who were extremely helpful.

Good Luck

[FL575]

The Southern Railway engine nameplate mounted on the inside of the portico wall of the entrance to Bently Priory was that of No 34055 'FIGHTER PILOT'. (of course!)

[grobace]

Thanks for drawing that BBC link to our attention, Diablo Rouge. As you say, it is short, but well worth viewing.

[grobace]

Thanks for drawing that BBC link to our attention, Diablo Rouge. As you say, it is short, but well worth viewing.