RAAF

[Dogsbreakfast]

OK so I've heard from the Pommes on their trials and tribulations. I've heard from the Yanks and the Kiwis as well but I don't hear much from our military boys and girls in the wide brown land. Probably because we are all jumping to Qantas and Ansett. So what gives is PPRUNE devoid of dedicated Aussie content because we are happy to sit back and listen or is the RAAF just so perfect that nobody has a harsh word to say?

I'll start the ball rolling:

What about this Aviation Capability Improvement Team (ACIT). Does it sound too good to be true? Have you heard it all before and been disappointed? Will the politicians swallow it?

What about the Kiwis to the RAAF? Good, bad, don't care?

I heard we lost 117 pilots over X-mas (47 QFI) and will train less than 1/3 of this number this year. Anyone know the real numbers?

Feel free to contribute it's healthy.

[Ex F111]

I'm one

[SQNLDR QFI]

[Switchblade]

Two's out

[2.5M]

The word on the street ( This news is about 1 month old, now) is that last year 99 pilots were lost, compared to about 30 odd the year before.
Talk of different pay scales for different qualifications (i.e. Fast Jet mates get paid more than same senority trashy drivers) has been quashed for the moment. ( they are waiting for the report on PLT retention to be published)
It still seems to me that the big wigs are putting their fingers in their ears, and pretending that the problem will go away if ignored.
The upshot of all this, to me at least, is that nothing much will change for the current PLTs in the short term, especially those who have significant amounts of ROSO left.

CPF

[DutchRoll]

I'm one too. I actually get decent time at home now, among other benefits (somewhat of a novelty).

More money if you're a fast jet jock than a trash-hauler? Here's a new concept - how about more money for those who actually fly ops (with double-time if you risk getting shot at & can't shoot back)?

[ 07 September 2001: Message edited by: DutchRoll ]

[Dogsbreakfast]

I'm not so pesimistic on the retention carrots. I've been in for 17 years (all flying) so I've heard the talk from the 'bigwigs' before. This time I like the credibility of those talking. Before I did not.

Still even with all the talk I'd be silly to not keep looking for airline jobs. Once you've seen who's making those carreer decisions for you in CB you know you need to keep your options open.

[Captain Sand Dune]

I was another one as well - got out 5 years ago. Money's MUCH better here!! (no more hints)
An old CO of mine said that the heirachy should really start to worry when everything went quiet - ie people stopped complaining. Maybe that's what's happening now.
--------------------------------------------
...got to do with where choo-choo go.......

[toopa]

Lets face it, unless your in saudi, military aviation is never going to offer the remuneration on civvy street. The only real benefit is the kit you get to use and the type of flying you get to do. But offset this against the fog of military life, and DPO's, your either a mate or a number ethos(excluding jocks), then many people find it easier to leave.

[Ron Fenest]

Sorry to butt in lads (or lasses) but while i can get this many aussies reading one page can i ask a few questions ? apologies if you get asked these a lot but i dont get on here often.

Do you know if the Army or RAAF are willing to recruit ex AAC pilots ?. I am just about to finish a flying tour with the AAC, i should hopefully have approx 850 gazelle hours when i'm done. Most of my family live in Australia..might that be an advantage ? Ive still got 5 years left to serve to age 40 and would happily stay with the AAC but they have farrrrr too many pilots (try finding one to go to N Ireland) so i'm looking at other options to continue flying. I am only interested in rotary.

Any advice or direction would be appreciated. And of course slaggings off will be sneered at.

[TUI]

Right on toopa, Lets face it the raaf is for wimps who miss there security blankets and need to have there wants and needs covered by licking a WGCDRs balls.Get a real job.Fark youz all

Bitter and twisted :D

[Booger]

So what are the "ground level" (ie boggy) suggestions to fix the retention problem?
Excluding the obvious money carrot,
I'll start with some:

1. Put chocolate bars back in the inflight rations.
2. No secondary duties (I can hear the cheers now!)
3. Re-instate the blue dress with white bobby socks for the ladies - I can't believe the RAAF withdrew those...
4. Exemption from annual fitness test.
5. No greenex.

Etc... Etc... You get the picture: more money less work.

Come on bograts, fuel this fire! :p

[2.5M]

All those who have been shot at while flying RAAF aircraft in the last ten years, raise your hand.

Turn it up Dutch. When ops become more than shonks overseas to stay in the nearest Hilton, Trashies might be able to justify an argument for a pay rise above the rest of us.

[Ex F111]

to continue Booger's thoughts


..... and no parades, or deployments with the Army. - Do not let Army run the exercise.

More flying hours [I'd lke to see someione pull that one out of the hat!]


Regular Dets to RAAF Maroochydore [Volunteers for DETCO?]

More Red Flag, Cope Thunder, Rimpac and NO PAS!


Build a 5 Star Pub at the Shram Camp and Curtin.


Good luck with your attempts to improve things chaps.

[guvner]

Money isn't everything. To get people to put up with (insert adjective of choice)conditions of service you pay them more. (just look at Saudi) And its not just aircrew that are leaving, engineers and ATCers can do better elsewhere. The RAAF doesn't control the purse strings, the Treasury does. Therefore the only solution in the short term is to dramatically improve conditions which are under the RAAF's control ~ reduce posting turbulence, back to back to back flying tours, more chocolate bars in rations, some form any form of structured career management (the antithesis of DPOs aims it seems) bring back people in uniform. (Who are these people in the ORooms?) Do that and I think you'll find it harder to leave.

The CSP has had a demoralising effect on those remaining in uniform. Insidious but nonetheless evident. This pushes anyone who is thinking of leaving more easily into their decision.

And on a more emotive level, the slash and burn approach of the bean counters leads to only one thing ~ do more with less leading to ~ do it all with nothing. Now thats got brass knobs on it.

[Dogsbreakfast]

The way I see it people stay / go for several different reasons.

Money: I'm struggling to understand this one when I am pulling ~A$90,000 but you can earn more elsewhere. My PERSONAL opinion is that you've gotta be pretty greedy to complain about that sort of money no matter what you do.

Stability: As you get older (like me) and have family (like me) moving house every couple of years has big shiny brass knobs on it. I love the moving but the wife / kids don't so by definition I'm not a happy man if forced to move AGAIN.

Flying: Not enough around or too many boggies or both. Only way to stay flying is to go QFI.

Watching the RAAF losing more and more operational credibility: Where are the supervisors now days (Ans: Q). How experienced are the current crop of supervisors? (Ans: Not very). Block obsolescence for a whole bunch of aircraft and no sight of credible moves to sort it out.

The ACIT bunch are promising 'fly for as long as you want' and minimal ground jobs. Be a supervisor when you want and for as long as you want. Sounds great but how are they going to run the organisation when we all decide to stay flying for 30 years? Use navigators? Perish the thought!

CSP just did not work. For some isolated areas (read blunt) it works fine because they were incompetent before they started but for the operational side it means more work for my people doing the CSPers jobs for them.

Bean counters: Totally different planet. Militarys exist to train and fight for war. Bean counters are the enemy we should be training to kill. They have no farking idea.

[2.5M]

I agree that ACIT are barking up the right tree WRT "the bucket theory".
However, I reckon that money is still a HUGE factor. The RAAF may not have access to the purse strings, but they didn't hesitate to throw a ~$15 000 bonus at the Air Trafficers when they started jumping ship only a couple of months ago.
That was an almighty slap in the face! Apparently ATC is more valuable than the aircrew it "controls"

In the grand scheme of things, a pay increase for pilots, dependant on seniority/qualifications, to at least compete with other agencies, would be a relatively low cost solution. (Compared to training costs to replace all those leaving)

Coupled with service conditions improvements, the flow of departing drivers may be slowed to an acceptable level.

P.S. Some extra conditions of service suggestions:
1. Give all of us a service car
2. Lets not pay tax anymore
3. Chocolates AND lollies in the in-flights

[schlarpa]

Skimpies at the O'mess every night.

[oldpinger]

More medals, that's what I reckon!

well I'm assuming that's what the pollies are thinking will solve all the retention problems, I ask you- an AASM for landing a C130 at Dilli!!!, not to mention getting one for overflying the 'war' zone....

I also hear the army are getting ASMs chucked at them all over the place for all sorts of stuff.
I also wonder if the possible sudden lack of jobs at Ansett will solve our retention woes?

Still, could be worse, could be living somewhere a lot colder

[ozy_rotorhead]

Quite possibly we need to look at why most pilots joined the service in the first place. If it was to fly military aircraft, get good pay, learn how to fly, fly in a challenging environment and do a service for your country, then perhaps more of them would still be around. Lets face it though, most pilots are nothing more than mercanaries with big egos who jump ship when they see something better. Is it any coincidence that pilots have the biggest divorce rate in the military? Of course not, they find it difficult to stick to anything for too long. I'm not bagging that type of personality, but maybe we are recruiting the wrong people.

[hueywsh]

Ron

The ADF have recently changed their age requirements. You can be up to 47 for Army Aviation as a pilot. I think the ROSO is 6 years which isn't too bad. I am pretty sure it's the same for the other services as well.
I know that the ADF are screaming for pilots, and they recently put 2 guys on helos from the RAAF, just to get them something to fly. As you are no doubt aware that RAAF don't have helos.

Good luck with it.

[Arm out the window]

Ozy Rotorhead, you are making some pretty wild generalisations there mate.

I'm out next week as it happens, after more than 20 years, and it's mainly to get stability for my family. However, I sympathise with those who are looking for something different at earlier stages in their careers.

Look around you -

low flying rates,

very poor serviceability (lots of old aircraft, cost cutting in spares support, lack of expertise in the maintenance organisations - cuts in their training schemes, struggling contractors),

overloaded squadron execs who are being EEO'd, OH&S'd and whatever else so much they hardly have time to steer the ship,

trying to pretend that less people can do the same job as more by working 'smarter not harder',

boggies being unable to get enough hours to get credible experience in their first tour and being behind the 8 ball from then on,

those same boggies coming back as squadron execs and not having much credibility because they never had time to do the job before being thrust into trying to run it,

senior officers getting posted in every 2 years, reinventing the wheel and then ****ing off,

Frankly, I think that we are simply ****ed because we have been forced to cut numbers and budgets below a critical mass, so too much corporate knowledge and experience is lost, and those that are left behind to struggle on get burnt out.

PS hueywsh, the RAAF is part of the ADF. You are talking about the Army.

[ 11 September 2001: Message edited by: Arm out the window ]

[Swingwing]

As the old saying goes, "some days you're the hound, and some days you're the hydrant".
We all have days when we look out the window, and can't imagine any other aviation job in the world. You know what I mean - you're tally 1 and flaring into the merge, upside down at 50000' and Mach 2, landing your Herc on NVG's (or in Hawaii!) , slamming on a 40 STOL approach in the New Guinea highlands or getting sonobuoy hits off that sub you've been chasing for hours. Where else on earth can you do stuff like that and then go and talk about it for hours over cheap beers with some of the best mates you'll ever make?
Then there are other days when the bull@#%, the paperwork or the poodling just seems to go on forever. No one in the "support" elements seems to have the first clue about what we do, or why we're there, and if you want anything done properly, you have to do it yourself. On those days, you often ask yourself why you didn't leave years ago.
Someone said to me many years back that when you first start out, all the crap just washes over you. When you start noticing it, and more to the point, getting worked up over it, it's time to leave.

Me? Well, I'll never be the chief, but I reckon I've got a couple of years left in me yet. Like most of us, I've wanted to do this since I was a little kid, and I'd hate to look back in twenty years and realise that I left before I got it right out of my system. After all, you're a long time retired.
So, I go to work, I go flying in one of the world's great aircraft, I get paid pretty well for the privilege ('cause that's what it is), I ignore the bull@#$% and if I'm not flying, I'm out the door at 4.30.
Yeah......it's still the best flying job money can buy!

Cheers,

Swingwing
PS:see you all at the airshow - Friday night = enormous aircrew party at the mess. Get there, get there!

[w_ocker]

Ron Forrest, yep I dont think you'd have too much trouble coming over to Army Avn. We are screeming for pilots on all types (blackhawk, huey, kiowa, even chinook). Tiger has been selected to be in service later in the decade and we are flat out with all sorts of operations all over this part of the world. Dont know anything about the citizenship requirements for you, but go for it anyway. Good luck. Look forward to having you. Just remember, the grass here is most likely just as drought and weed-ridden as that which you might be desiring to leave behing in AAC.

W_ocker

[melchett]

Well said Swingwing.

I think for a lot of us, just providing posting stability would mean as much as a pay rise. (And the RAAF wouldn't have to go begging to the beancounters either.)

I have posting stability now, only because so many have left - and now there are so few!