OK, what's changed?

[Thud_and_Blunder]

It doesn't take the brains of an Archbishop or the observational skills of Sherlock Holmes to work out that I'm due back in the UK shortly after just over 3 years away. I've read plenty on this thread (plus Rotorheads and JB) about the effects on service life of contractorisation and the like. When I left, phones worked and numbers could be looked up. People on units (like ours) that worked 7 days a week 52 weeks a year could fill in a leave form that didn't need a specialist adminner to decode. TV was getting bad, but hadn't sunk as low as Big Brother or that one that talks about Weakest Links. Number plates changed once a year. Going on an exercise with a spot of sunshine involved was generally something to look forward to.

What else will I notice that's different when I get back?

[murphy]

Don't really know, but just had to 'Congrats' you on your recent milestone. And it was good to meet you, even if it was very briefly today!!!!

Yours

Murph x x x (Mac's RHS at LP 332!)

[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: murphy ]

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Murph,

BFR (Blinding Flash of Recognition) - many thanks. However, I've always been assured that it's quality, not quantity, that really counts. Ta though.

[Gainesy]

T&B
1]King & Barnes brewery in Horsham has closed down and all of its pubs in Sussex are now run by Hall & Woodhouse so you can get your local brews up here now;
2]I guess that the price of petrol will make you blink;
3] But it'd be more interesting to hear what differences that you note after a three-stretch out of the Blairdom.
Cheers and Welcome home.
Gainesy

[Flatus Veteranus]

T&B
I note that you are a fellow Devonian. The service provided by (First)God's Wonderful Railway from Plymouth/Totnes/Exeter to Paddington is now a terminal shambles. And the fault oscillates between Railtrack and GWR.

[BEagle]

FV - you probably remember when God's Wonderful Railway was hauled by Castles and Kings and the carriages were chocolate and cream!!

[oldbeefer]

The price of diet Bass has escalated alarmingly....

[Flatus Veteranus]

BEagle

Oh yes! And I used, as a small boy, to stand on the footbridge at Arlsey (Beds) while the Mallard and the Jubilee Express thundered through trying for the world's speed record in steam. Seven foot drivers turning over at 400 rpm - that was something!

[BEagle]

FV - whilst many people take the pi$$ out of trainspotters these days, that's not surprising given the boring things that occasionally struggle along the remains of our railways.

But back then, the sight and sound of one of those big steam locomotives belting along was pretty darn impressive! Plus you only had to find a bridge anywhere in the country and wait a few minutes and some fire-breathing monster would come along! It wasn't counting numbers which people did then - they just enjoyed the sound and fury!

Liked the story told to me by an ancient aviator - during flying training they used to formate on the cabs of fast trains during solo GH sessions. However, on one occasion the fireman lobbed a chunk of finest steam coal at him and he had a helluva job explaining why he had a lump of coal wedged between the bottom pots of his engine after he landed!!

[ 04 September 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

[Kiting for Boys]

If Iain Duncan Smith wins, then the leaders of the four largest parties at Westminster will be Scotsmen.

[henry crun]

Beagle: a brief digression you may have heard of.
Some years back a Vulcan was wandering round the south island of NZ on a scenic and came across the Kingston Flyer.
This was, and still is, the only surviving steam train in NZ still doing a regular run, and a lovely example it is to.

The Vulcan crew decided to take a photo and after several attempts at fairly low level managed to get the required picture.
Later that day at Ohakea a telegram arrived from the Kingston Flyer engine driver, "you are quite beautiful,......... and there is a fly spot on your left wing" !

[ 05 September 2001: Message edited by: henry crun ]

[Flatus Veteranus]

Henry Crun

Was that the Vulcan that wiped its gear off at Wellington (Rongotai) by touching short? And then had to skulk off to belly-in at Ohakea? If so, I knew the drivers well. It could not have happened to a nicer pair of chaps! :o

[Flatus Veteranus]

BEagle
In those days the railways were a source of national pride, and you didn't need to be a "spotty" to watch the speed record attempts. I was a child of the "Raj" and at age 6 was at a little boarding pre-prep school for such children at Arlesey. Speed record attempts were well advertised in the national press and "The Colonel" used to march us down - boys and girls - in crocodile to watch them and wave our union jacks. The thunder, the smoke and steam, the mighty conrods reciprocating so fast you could hardly see them, and the scream of the whistle dopplering away into the distance left an indelible impression. Alas, I don't think Arlesy station exists now (Beeching got it!). And the pleasant country house that was the school has been replaced by an estate of "breeding boxes".
Leading the EUAS Chippies back from summer camp in the South to Turnhouse in the '60s, bucking a stiff NW wind, we were overhauled near York by the Scotsman; but those were Deltic days.

Henry Crun

NZ Railways in the '40s had a very pretty class of Pacifics (KAs?)which hauled the Auckland and Wellington Limiteds. They had a mellow twin-note whistle. I wonder if any of them survive?

Perhaps we ought to get back to aviation!

[henry crun]

FV: the "fly spot" episode was after Rongotai.

A sequel to the Rongotai accident you may not know of is that the crew sent out to take the a/c back damn near did the same thing at Ohakea. During a test flight prior to returning to UK they did a roller on 33 at Ohakea and left rubber on the stones just short of the runway lip !.

There are still several KAa's lovingly preserved by museums. To the delight of the enthusiasts they are allowed to venture on the main trunk line occasionally.

[BEagle]

Not in the same league as you watching A4 Pacifics belting along the main line, but when I was in the First Form at my prep school, our 'nature walks' always used to coincide with the hissing and clanking of the 'Chard Snail' as it made its leisurely progress along the local branch line and we waved happily at the driver and fireman. Funny how the sun always shone in those days! Bit of a shame that we 'railway children' didn't have a Jenny Agutter to lust after at the time though.....

[Samuel]

Sorry, I know this doesn't belong in this thread but-----!

The Vulcan at Wellington Airport was doing a touch-and -go, but sank short of the runway and severely damaged the port undercarriage. The port wing tip then actually scraped along the runway before the wing was lifted and massive power applied. It was a superb example of brute force and supreme flying skill well desreved of the AFC awarded to the pilot.A Wing Commander?(An RNZAF Sunderland scraped the runway on the same day)

His day was not over however, because he had to land at RNZAF Station Ohakea,90 miles north, on one leg, with a full crew, all of whom had refused to leave the aircraft(though it may have been a bad choice to do so). The canopy was jettisoned and the aircraft successfully landed with surprisingly little damage. It was repaired at Ohakea over a period of some months, and flew back to the UK wearing RNZAF roundels! The crash fire section at Ohakea still carries a photo of the landing,(along with some other remarkable pics).

Incidentally, I witnessed the departure of last ever visit of a Vulcan to OH,(flown by a Flt Lt Hall?) who took off on 09, and turned starboard to come back toward the tower. Straight and level, I swear I was looking down the intakes. Ah, sweet memories!

[ 06 September 2001: Message edited by: Samuel ]

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Samuel,

No need to apologise - after all, I started the thread and, although I've had very few replies 'on target' it's made me smile to see where it can lead people.

Also off-topic, I had my last last Military flight today. Twenty five years after first strapping a JP3A to my back, I was given the privilege of taking a B212 for GH and a Stds check around the hills of Temburong to enjoy a haze-free day. I've had more fun over those 2.5 decades/8008 mil fg hours (no autopilot) than a human being is normally allocated in a lifetime - my thanks to all who've made it possible.

See you at Helitech - I'm still the short ugly one with 'Jobseeker' on the badge...

Cheers,

Thud http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/wavey.gif

[1.3VStall]

Gresley A4 "Pacifics", the smell of hot oil and coal smoke, tales of derring do with the Avro Tin Triangle and - fwoaaaaaargh - the lust for Jenny Agutter this is definitely the thread for me!

Who gives a $hit what has changed? Just keep the anecdotes coming boys. Lets have some tales about the harmonious Hunter, the lushious Lightning, the Blackburn Banana, Casles, Kings, Jubilees, Coronations and other glorious British products like Kate Winslet and......dribble, dribble, dribble.

[Biggles Flies Undone]

Well, as you lot have strayed off topic, hopefully you will allow me to ask a question.

I was at the Shoreham Airshow last Saturday (CAVOK, +68F – perfect day for it). One of the most impressive displays was from a Hunter painted in a really leary colour scheme. I could only hear part of the commentry, but I thought ‘late model’ and ‘bigger engine’ was mentioned. It certainly flew like no Hunter I’ve seen before – is this an airshow special or in the same spec as when it was in service? Must have been a lot of fun to fly.

[Samuel]

As someone has pointed out, there are still a couple of those mighty KA's available for special outings, like the sponsored Daffodil Express this weekend for Child Cancer. I'm usually a starter, but the delightful aspect of riding behind something like that is the smiles on everyone's faces, from grandkids to grandparents.They all love the experience; and when did you last see a sign telling you "Expectoration is Forbidden".

Mond you, I also have an occasional ride in a Boeing Stearman, for which I'm happy to pay.

[Lost For Words]

So you've been away?

I think you'll find that things have changed a great deal...
Firstly, we never do more than an 8 hour day, oh and there's no 'face-time' anymore. You just get into your luxury vehicle (which doesn't have to be parked 25m from buildings anymore) and cruise home to your beautiful house.
We've upgraded with all the latest kit like .833Mhz radios and TCAS, so you never have to say 'unable to comply' anymore. You'll find friendly, helpful engineers at your service and you won't have to interrupt them playing pool to get a see-off.
The best bit is that your salary is now generous and it goes up a bit every month. If you find that another bunch of pilots are getting paid more than you, politely ask the union to sort things out.

Oooops I forgot. I work in civvy street now.

Sorry, Irrelevant post.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Back on topic:

Who are: Ali G? Nigella Lawson? Why do the chattering classes seem fascinated by either/both?

Ta

[John Eacott]

I can't allocate who has the ownership of these photos, as I picked them up two years ago from a similar thread. No pics of trains... ;)

Anyone with details of the original site that posted these shots, please advise and I will allocate credit, rather than offending someone.

T & B, just remember to have a pint or three for me. Cheers!

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/vulcrash1.jpg

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/vulcrash2.jpg

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/vulcrash3.jpg

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/vulcrash4.jpg

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/vulcrash5.jpg

[Samuel]

Exactly as I described it, and I wasn't even there! That's the Capt.with his best foot forward.Superb!

As for ownership of the pics, the incident was filmed , but the last two are definately RNZAF Official.

[ 07 September 2001: Message edited by: Samuel ]

[TOOM]

Well, I WAS there and what a show it was. The Sunderland that scraped its keel on the runway had to be beached on its return to Hobsonville. A USAF Voodoo deliberately broke the sound barrier to great enjoyment of those present and no complaint from those not present. In spooling up to full power the Vulcan deposited a fair ammount of unburnt fuel over the crowds - it took a fair few washes to rid my clothes of the whiff of AVTUR. Wonderful! This event probably lead me to the RAF a fair few years later!

Call me a stickler, but, while I admire the skill in landing the Vulcan at OH after the event, I'm not sure landing-short deserves an AFC!

[Thud_and_Blunder]

John,

Incredible pictures - I like the details, like the Series 1 LandRover (knowing NZ, it's probably still on the road...). Don't think I could manage 3 pints of Diet Coke in 1 sitting thanks, but I'll try anyway. Did the snow situation improve?

I hadn't realised USAF fighters had made it all the way down to Godzone. Wonder how welcome they'd be now?

[The Mistress]

T&B

To answer one of your above questions:
http://members.madasafish.com/~thing/nigellalawson/015.jpg

As good looking as the aircraft? I'll let you red blooded males be the judge of that :)

[Flatus Veteranus]

TM

Ouch!

[Flatus Veteranus]

BEagle

Lusting in the 1st form at prep? I'm sure Matron would have had a few word to say about that!

[Samuel]

Prior to yet another Labour Govt. taking us out of Anzus, the USAF were regular visitors to air shows in Godzown. They usually came from units at Kadena in Japan. There were F105's, and F4's at various times, plus the RAF contingent, usually a Victor (we had two "Tatty Ton" Victors once) or Vulcan.We even had a 20 Sqn Harrier, brought out in an Antonov! Now, if you want to see real Thud and Blunder you have to do what I'm doing at the end of the month and fly to Ameberly!
http://www.airshow.net.au/amberley/index.html

[ 07 September 2001: Message edited by: Samuel ]

[Beeayeate]

To Toom4evr

Have a very grainy picture that might be the Sunderland event you mention.

http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~lesb/misc/Sunderland-NZ.jpg

[Samuel]

It never ceases to amaze me what turns up on these pages!

[henry crun]

So far about the only photo missing from the opening of Wellington airport airshow is one of a Vampire flying down the main drag in Mirama level with the verandahs.

[BEagle]

FV - actually the Matron herself at my prep school was a real honey and was definitely the subject of many schoolboy lustings.....!!

There was the day she woke me up by.....no, even I couldn't possibly divulge that secret. It still brings a smile to the parts after err, 38 years....

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Mistress,

Thanks - I also stumbled across the thread on JB where you and others explained the lady's rise to fame. Cooking, eh? Nah, I'll continue to burn the water while boiling-in-the-bag, thanks. Eating's just another bodily function...

Now, must find out what catchphrases from the last 3 years my lad has to learn to maintain survivability at his new school.

[Flatus Veteranus]

Samuel

The captain the Vulcan was a top bloke with a honey of a wife, possibly with connections in NZ? I doubt whether the AFC was awarded for the Rongotai incident; more likely for previous meritorious and arduous service, including being my boss at Middleton St George. The Management of the Great White Detergent fleet was unforgiving of those who scratched their precious aeroplanes. Sir Byng Cross imported much of the SAC culture imbued by its founder Gen Curt LeMay. Curt leMay it was who pointed his cigar at a poor sod on his mat saying "So you think you are an unlucky Wing Commander ? Well, I don't employ unlucky Wing Commanders. You're fired!"

I don't think our friend's career prospered after Rongotai. In fact I believe he retired early. :(

BEagle. You lucky old sod! Mine was a cross-eyed old battleaxe who had reputedly served in first aid posts in the trenches in WW1. She was as hard as nails, but probably had a heart of gold. :rolleyes:

[Samuel]

Well, it has to be said FV, that Wellington Airport, then and now, has more in common with with an aircraft carrier than a runway. There is sea at both ends, and no overshoot area, and in a southerly, short finals can be very interesting. That first photo of the Vulvan is full of detail, including the port aileron position! While rare, the wind can be outside the limits for all users, though the air force of course can opt to land. I came back from Oz in an Andover once, in the back as usual, and got a full side-on view of the numbers just before a firm touch-down. Having been in the same aircraft on the fringe of a thunderstorm near Nowra, I was impressed!Aren't Mil. pilots wonderful!

[Samuel]

Flatus

Regarding you comments on the V force, (and I note that Beagle also flew Vulcans at one stage)I spent my last two years in the UK at Cottesmore when occupied by 10 and 15 Sqns, and often wondered if any of those Mickey Finn's had been for real, how many of those crews would bave made it back.

It has now been confirmed, for me at least, that Bing Cross once held a briefing for all "V" crews which, according to one 9 Sqn Captain, left them in no doubt they were on a one-way ticket and they should get used to the idea.He consoled them with the thought that there wouldn't be a lot worth coming back for!

[D Beaver]

Samuel,

I see an interesting detail in the second Vulcan photo. The airbrakes are extended (or just beginning to retract). Was this normal at this stage of a GA or had the crew forgotten in all the excitement?

Perhap BEagle could enlighten us?

And as a further digression on this marvellously eclectic thread - I grew up near White Waltham and the GWR main line in the 60s. Did anyone else notice that the Fairey Rotodyne (4 tip jets) sounded exactly like a King or Castle (4 cylinders) going flat out or was it just me? :)

[Samuel]

Well that particular example of aerospace engineering was very agricultural, and would have sounded like anything but the purpose for which it was built.

Thud and Blunder; as an absentee for some 38 years who has visited very three of four years,(most recently in March this year, and had lunch at Lyneham, after a look at a 130J), there are many changes I have noted, not all of them good! As an outsider looking in; The privatisation of what was once a good public transport system has failed;
Britain is much, much more diverse than it used to be, and is sadly no longer unique;People obviously join the armed services for different reasons these days(sic); Politicians are even more scheming than they ever were; Management of foot and mouth was a complete cock-up;Political Correctness has indeed gone mad; Bath on a sunny day is still stunning;The Randolph Hotel in Oxford does a superb silver service breakfast;Motorway Service is anything but;The best Cornish pasties in the world are sold in a shop behind Wells Cathedral, and I still hit my head on entering the bar of the Sun Inn at Cottesmore.

[ 09 September 2001: Message edited by: Samuel ]

[BEagle]

It was normal SOP to make the approach in the Vulcan with hi-drag airbrake selected in order to increase the drag sufficiently for the engines to be operating in a more comfortable range of thrust settings. Wit no airbrake, the technique was rather more like a flapless approach in a conventional aeroplane. Airbrake was seleted in for the go-around or touch-and-go, but they took about 7-9 seconds to retract fully. Another interesting handling quirk was that if the control column was moved aft too rapidly in order to counter an anticipated high rate of descent near the ground, 'negative flap effect' would result and the resulting loss of lift could give a very hard landing. Similarly, if the control column was moved forward too rapidly or too far on a touch-and-go, the aircraft could waffle into the air at too low a speed and if the engines were still spooling up you could have a handful to deal with as large yawing moments close to Vmca are not fun!

Yes - I remember hearing the strange noise from the Rotodyne and it did indeed sound like a fast steam locomotive! So could a taxiing Harrier GR3 - at times it made the same chuffing sound as a heavy steam train staggering up a steep hill!

[Blue Stuff]

I've seen it written that the airbrakes were overlooked initially, resulting in a slight overspeed. Although it would clearly have been desirable to get them in earlier, you can see from the aileron position and the bootfull of right rudder to keep straight that the crew had their hands rather full.

This brings to mind the sad demise of another Vulcan. I can't remember the precise details; somebody fill me in please. The A/C had been touring Aus / NZ [can't remember] and on its return to the UK landed well short of the runway at LHR [I think] in fog, forcing the gear up through the wings and cripling the hydraulics. There was a large crowd waiting to see the Vulcan come home; all they heard was full power being selected, followed by the Vulcan climbing out of the fog with both main legs trailing and fuel pouring out everywhere. I believe that after a few seconds, the controls stiffened up and the A/C dropped a wing and entered a dive. The pilots ejected; of course the rear crew didn't stand a chance. I believe that it was this incident which prompted Martin Baker to develop an ejection 'cage' for Vulcan rear crew. However, the MoD never fitted it because ... yep, you guessed it ... :(

Blue.

[Flatus Veteranus]

Samuel

It sounds like Bing's style - according to his reputation (I never met him). But he only articulated what the rest of us worked out for ourselves. That's why I never heard at Waddo any discussion of who would go. IF you got off before the place went up in a mushroom cloud, what was the point in coming back? Anyway, most of the planned "recovery airfields" were a joke. To amuse ourselves, I spent an hour with my Nav and Co on QRA one day working through the fuel plan using actual rather than statistical winds. We arrived at Start Descent with -1,000 lbs fuel. I did NOT phone Strike Ops to tell them their war plan was a load of sh*t!.

I can almost hear the shouts of BOLLOX, but I believe most military jets normally land with airbrakes out. An exception was the Meteor, which had extremely effective airbrakes. Furthermore, if yaw was induced with a/b OUT, there could be a catastrophic loss of lift and elevator control - the notorious "Phantom Diver" - which wrote off the last flyable T7 and killed its pilots a few years ago. The Gear DOWN sequencing induced yaw, so we taught stus instinctively to bang the a/b lever IN before selecting gear down. And, as QFI in the back seat, if you valued your life, you had your hand on the a/b handle when the stu lowered the gear.

Brilliant pics on this thread. I loved the Sunderland. Reminds me of the hoary old story about the Lancaster pilot who had done his 2 tours of ops and was posted to Sunderlands for a "rest". Having converted, he took his boat back to Waddo (or wherever) and beat sh*t out of the place and then set up a simulated approach to the runway. His co got more and more restless as the approach proceeded until, after a shower of red Veries from the caravan, he overshot at the last moment. After landing back at Pembroke Dock (or wherever) and picking up their mooring, the crew went aft to the entry port. The Captain turned to the Co and said "You thought I was going to touch down at Waddo, didn't you?". He then opened the door and stepped out. KERPLUNK.

[Flatus Veteranus]

Samuel, you were probably not the only one wondering how many aircraft would return from Ex. Micky Finn. OC Eng would have signed off so many snags on F700s that he would have got out his prayer mat and was down on his knees!

T & B

Apologies for having helped hi-jack your thread. Some more answers to your original question (from a Devon perspective).

Small sheep and dairy farmers are in desperate trouble. Many are selling up. The farm houses are being sold to city slickers as second/retirement homes. The land is being leased to the larger and more viable farmers. The latter have sold their farmhouse and have built agriculture-tied bungalows, which they are living in themselves. Most farming operations (eg, silage-cutting and harvesting)are performed by contractors. Our local farmer is now farming about 1,000 acres with one permanent hand. House prices are up about 30%. Unleaded petrol now about 77p/litre (the highest in Europe), and diesel about the same. If you are going to be sick, don't - unless you have medical insurance. GP service here is first class, but non-emergency hospital treatment is a nightmare, because the beds art all blocked by old folk who cannot be discharged after their ops because there are no convalescent or nursing homes. If you have an accident , don't try to struggle to hospital under your own steam. Dial 999. The paramedics are quick and efficient and they will know which A&E department is least overloaded. Once you have got through A&E and been admitted, the NHS hospitals are superb. Don't have complex surgery in private hospitals because they are understaffed with agency nurses and have no intensive care facilities.

Transport between London and the SE and this area is now so precarious that more and more Londoners are buying their country homes in France. There is a reverse Norman Conquest going on and you can hardly hear French spoken in Dordoignshire.

[Samuel]

Thud and Blunder
More observations from the Antipodes!

The Avis lady at Heathrow who gave me two upgrades 'cos I was from NZ!

The M25 is indeed an expansive car-park.

Petrol is outrageously priced compared to just about anywhere, and is more that twice the price per litre it is in OZ/NZ.

Drivers however are still very courteous in interpreting what your intentions are.

I was amazed to learn a Uni(Manchester?) was offering a course on Posh/Beckham Studies.What the hell for I don't know.

Flatus, I observed a somewhat short-sighted Nav board a Canbera B12 (similar to RAF B8) and set up shop while awaiting his pilot.Nav waits, and waits,and waits, and finally climbs out to have a look and sees smiling pilot sitting in next aircraft! Groundies rolling around on the concrete laughing. Next day, aircraft has fuselage number double the normal size!

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Fellas (damn, probably sexist but too late..)

Many thanks. I'm writing this from the hotel cybercaff, having handed back my last-ever quarter ready to depart for the Mudbank. Have braced myself for the changes FV has outlined in detail, but still looking forward to seeing Devon again.

I'll miss the jungle, though (as I've managed to do during every single one of the landings here for the past 3 years) :D

Right, back to the Chinook thread to digest the positive vibes coming from that most-important area of the web. Cheerful tidings soon after 7 long years, perhaps?

[Flatus Veteranus]

Thud & Blunder

Good luck in your new life.

[oldbeefer]

When I saw "Vulcan Lands Short", I immediately assumed this was going to be the story of the shambles in Malta. One of the pilots involved saw the light and went rotary. Ended up as a trapper, I believe! Anything's possible!!! :eek: