Was this a mistake?

[Ronand]

Hi guys, I recently turned down a job offer. The deal was more or less this: 15K for a Citation rating, then earning 950 Quid monthly as FO. No guaranty on flying hours and office work on days not flying.... And would have had to relocate on own expense...
I decided not to go for the offer as I have a relaxed job (not flying though) at the moment earning abt 1600 quid monthly....
Sometimes I start to think that I did a mistake, cos I'm unexperienced (250 hrs) and I might not get a job offered to soon again.
What would you guys have done?

[punk666]

Hi would you like to pass me the job offer this way im in the same position with no job experience, but I am happy with them terms.

[ab33t]

Hey I have a office job and would gladly take up that offer send it my way , thanks in advance

[Der_Fischmeister]

Well ,In my eyes you did the Right thing.

And for those so desperate for paying the own Type,getting paid like s...(initially),relocating own expense ....How about Ryr..air ....

Dont destroy this market here by selling yourself for Peanuts.

Myself ,also 3 Months now with ocassional Freelance work but mainly no Job ,Just give it time ,soon or later market will positivly improove.

I know its hard but it will ,it will.....
:ok:

It´s----THE Fischmeister!!!!

[EatMyShorts!]

Yes, good decision to turn down such a slap into your face! That's not a job offer, that's offending.

[cuba99]

I started on a similar contract like that years ago, but only i got that amount of money you would start at after my first raise......................

[Hansard]

I think you did the right thing. That deal is like working for free for 16 months.

Never buy a job.

[ScamArtist]

Just to throw this in the mix. I personally think it is a bit of a mistake, the money aspect is stupidly low but in the current climate and with your very low experience you must have done extremely well to secure anything at all.

Think about where you will be in a few years time when things start to pick up again. If you don't take the job you'll be in exactly the same position as you are now but with degraded skills and on the bottom of the CV pile with every other wannabe OR if you do take it, you'll be flying, gaining valuable experience and probably having all of your ratings revalidated by the company and working towards a command position etc.

Yes the money is low and they are taking the pi55 but sometimes you just have to go for it. Would I do it? No, but the difference is that I have a flying job already, it's not a jet job but it pays the bills and I'm gaining experience. If I was in YOUR position now though I would go for it, at least it's flying and it's a jet.

[inner]

Hi

I personally think you took a brave decision and if everyone just has the same courage, aviation would be a lot better. Nowadays a lot of companies think they threat their personnel with sh*tty conditions forgetting that the same personnel also have to pay the bills.

My advice is now: try to stay in aviation. Nomatter how difficult it sounds. 3 years ago i also turned down my first flying job offer because of the conditions. A few weeks later i got another job offer, just out of the blue. Company paid for typerating etc.

I wish you all the best man cause you derserve it.:ok:

[learjet50]

Hi

You made the right decision

Who do these companies think they are ??

You only get what you pay for in thee World today

Pay Peanuts u get Monkey s (THERE ARE LOTS OF THEM ABOUNT) who will work for nothing,Normally Multi Million pounds Companies who exploite the likes of yourself whilst paying there Executives vast salaries

You made the right decision becasue what go s around comes around and hopefully in the near future these Fat cats who think they can pay nothing for Pilots will learn the Hard way

Its is a pity there cannot be alist made of Compainies who treat Pilots like this and everbody should give the 2 fingers then they would learn but we all sadly know this will not happen


Best of luck in the future and beleive me one day you will look back and say Thank Fxxk I did not take the Job an leave it to the Wxxnkers who will take the Job and learn the hard way.

There are lots of decent companies who operate A/C out there I hope you will find one



Regards

[His dudeness]

Good decision!

From time to time you´ll think that this and that guy passed you by buying his job. I did sometimes.

All you young dudes wanting to have that job, for heavens sake, THINK.

Do you want to earn a living??? Accept these offers and you never will. In the long run T&C will descend below any acceptable level. (and that offer is already below anything acceptable)

Ask yourself: investing say 80.000€ for a monthly return of 1000? that means 80 months of work for nothing even if you had the money and don´t owe to anyone. (if your maths are to bad, ask someone at a Bank)

And the good jobs will disappear as well, so don´t count on getting more later on.

BTW I won´t employ any of you self funding lot. And I sure hope many other DO´s / Chief pilots think as I do.

[punk666]

Learjet,

About making a list of the companies who treat pilots like crap. It reminds me of what my old man told me the other week regarding engineers.

He is part of a union bit like AOPA but for engineers and he recently got the new newsletter and it had an article about boycotting this one particular agency because they are hiring eastern block engineers who will work for absolutely nothing putting experienced engineers out of work or making them work for less pay...so your idea of listing these companies can work!

But for someone who has little experience in the aviation market and the requirements these airline put down i.e "1500TT, 500 hours on type" someone who has just finished training will not stand a chance at all getting employement, so taking the offer that was stated above would be good for someone with no kids, no house or debts to pay because it gets you through the door and you just have to put up with it for a year or so till the market picks back up, then you will have experience that you didnt have before.

There's a global recession going on, companies can just stay a float let alone pay good wages and paying for a TR left right and center for pilots.

You can do two of the following things:

1. Sit around and hope things get better, and get rusty because your not flying.

2. Just accept them terms to get your foot through the door (assuming your new to the industry with no experience), wait it out for a year or so till things pick up and do some flying at the same time gaining some experience and hours on a jet.

I know which one I would pick!

But saying that, It doesn't mean I agree with the terms above, its more of just saying what alot of new pilots are thinking on the other side of the fence.

[merlinxx]

If you start out with somebody who's taking this piss:= then seems like you'll end up with them taking the piss:yuk: Stay in the office and build hours somewhere else that is not going to skint you for the next 20 years:ugh:

[Hansard]

Ronand,

Don't take what I'm about to say as a personal comment, it isn't. You did well to get an offer and, in my opinion, you took the right decision, and a brave one, by turning it down.

However, I have to reply to something ScamArtist said - "you must have done extremely well to secure anything at all". As a general comment, I don't think that's the case in this industry any more. You don't have to be the best candidate to get the job. If you have the licence and you're willing to pay the money and accept atrocious T&Cs, you're in. What do the airlines/operators care, they stay legal and save money. Less able/qualified/experienced pilots are leap-frogging their betters by paying to fly.

[BizJetJockey]

Just out of interest, where does the said company operate out of?

[what next]

Hello!

His dudeness: BTW I won´t employ any of you self funding lot. And I sure hope many other DO´s / Chief pilots think as I do.

They might think so, but unlike you they may not be in a position to act as they think. And if the management can save 20.000 Euros by employing a type-rated or self funded pilot, most chief pilots/postholders will have to do what their management wants them to. I know that you have the guts to risk your own job defending your principles, but others have a mortgage to pay and children at school - so principles will come second place.

Regarding the original question: Was it a mistake? We will know in two or three years. If the current crisis will be forgotten by then, you will have found a better job with better conditions. If business is no better then than it is now, you might just have thrown away your last chance for a place in the cockpit. Who knows.

For many years I used to preach the same gospel to my students as "His dudeness". "Never ever pay for your flying". "Never ever pay for a type rating." "Never fly for less than they would pay you at McDonalds." And so on. But now the year 2009 is nearly over. Since two years, nine out of ten of our students can't find work anywhere. Those unlucky ones that finished two years ago probably never will get eployed as pilots. They did not the chance to gain any flying experience since they got their license and now, there are plenty of younger pilots with the same (or better: without the same) experience on the market. So my preaching goes a little different now and is more like this: "You already have invested between 50 and 70.000 euros. Spend another 15.000 now and start gaining the necessary experience for a good job - or wait for your magic prince to kiss you awake in one or five or ten years. If ever. The choice is yours..."

Greetings, Max

[The Beer Hunter]

Ronand. Well done for having the balls to turn it down. If only a few more people had the strength of character not to undermine their so-called colleagues our neck of the industry would remain the (mainly) nice place it has been compared to the airlines.

But saying that, It doesn't mean I agree with the terms above....

Yes you do. By saying..... I no (sic) which one I would pick!.....you are giving your agreement. Please don't try to sugar coat it, we're not daft.

Let's hope those doing their best to undermine terms and conditions become known. This is still a small industry.

[His dudeness]

And if the management can save 20.000 Euros by employing a type-rated or self funded pilot, most chief pilots/postholders will have to do what their management wants them to. I know that you have the guts to risk your own job defending your principles, but others have a mortgage to pay and children at school - so principles will come second place.

Max, I know it. Still - IF we all continue with a shrug and a well, to hell with it, I just need a job - then we are indeed doomed. It might start with the low hour guys and we, the older generation, can just say its not us. But we are next. There is always someone cheaper lurking around the corner.
There are way to many people with a gumstick as a backbone substitute in leading positions, that just try to save their sorry ass. All the while they do nothing else than making their own standing lower and lower.
The children/mortgage thing is a understandable position, but you are not flying for 950 quid plus taking a T/R - if you´d do that, I don´t see how you`d pay the mortgage.

I guess we are already beyond the point of no return, however I´ll stick to my principles and just hope others do it as well...and if I couldn´t earn a life in flying, I would do something different.

[ahramin]

It's very simple really. If you take a job that pays pathetically in order to get experience you screw yourself for the rest of your career. This is because once you have the experience and apply for the better job, they know they only have to pay you a little more and you will be happy. This continues through your whole career.

[rogerg]

It's very simple really. If you take a job that pays pathetically in order to get experience you screw yourself for the rest of your career. This is because once you have the experience and apply for the better job, they know they only have to pay you a little more and you will be happy. This continues through your whole career

Probably not so. Most larger companies have a common joining pay scale pay scale. It would not be practical to pay each pilot a different rate depending on your hours.
Having a bit of experience might just be the key to being accepted.

[jetopa]

I know nobody wants to hear this, but it doesn't hurt at all to be cost-sensitive and be aware of the extreme vulnerability of our beloved business aviation!

I shake my head in disbelief when pilots do not pay attention as to where to refuel and how much or don't care to read through the handling invoice for any unjustified fees, ask for the price of a crew shuttle etc...

In German there is a saying of not putting the axe on the very branch you're sitting on...

I do agree though that we shouldn't keep lowering our salaries.

[EatMyShorts!]

I shake my head in disbelief when pilots do not pay attention as to where to refuel and how much or don't care to read through the handling invoice for any unjustified fees, ask for the price of a crew shuttle etc...But this is the result of employers treating their employees like sh*t: "if my boss does not care for me, I don't care for his company". I don't want to say that it is right to act this way, but this is probably the reason these things happen. And there are, of course, a few guys who just don't know how to do their job, but they are the minority. EDIT: for typing errors

[His dudeness]

Eat my shorts has a point there.

I remember working for an operator that treated/treats his employees like medium radioactive garbage. Mind you, that shiploads of money were thrown out of the window by the 'belle-etage' aka ops and the master himself.
He would not answer the phone on a sunday even when it was his duty.
Ops did forget flights or gave us flight data that were simpy wrong (like wrong destination). The costs for things like that are gigantic in perspective. Having said that, awareness for costs is crucial and part of the job. But if you make valid and genuine 'Kaizen' inputs and they are ignored time and again, you get fed up. I always worked for the company, but I perfectly understand if one is so fed up with crap from the higher echolons that he does not any more...and that costs operators possibly more than anything.

[jetopa]

Eat my Shorts + your Dudeness:

that's not the point!

No matter how much money others may through out of the window: WE should know better. It's for safekeeping our jobs. It's narrow-sighted not to be cost-conscious these days (and any other day, for that sake).

I've seen corporate flight departments, which have been existing longer than I have been flying, suddenly close down operations and sell their airplanes. Just like that. The message here: even the wealthiest people might get the idea to look at cost-cutting measures. And as always, it is good to be prepared for the worst, isn't it?

Our friend who started this thread made a very personal decision which I respect. He also sent a message to the people who offered him the job - even though they probably will find a 'monkey' to take it under the given circumstances... I do wish him better luck next time!

[His dudeness]

Would you care to read my post?

Having said that, awareness for costs is crucial and part of the job.

I just expressed my understanding even if I wouldn´t do it the same way.

Still I won´t tell them that there are cheaper pilots than me. :ouch:

[OneIn60rule]

I would say it was a good decision.

Someone is asking you to pay 15k for the rating and on top of it they will only give you 950 a month????

So the first two years you'll be trying to pay that back whilst pretending to have a good life as FO....


Whereas at moment you have a solid job which I guess pays far more anyway.


The clue is, don't jump at the very first thing that gives you wings. Wait and the better deal will eventually appear. Of course do keep your contacts up etc.


Of course you could see it from another angle. What if someone else took the job, willing to slave away earning nothing in reality until that time passes and then maybe getting a better job with another company. If a person can afford that then they probably have far more money anyway and just want the privilege of wearing the outfit.

[Twin2040]

Well done !!! You did the right thing. In the future you can look at your self with pride knowing this. With a company like this - you can not learn anything good about flying anyway !!! Pay peanuts and ............
Not you !!! :ok:

[lanef300]

I agree with every one else, and what's already been said, you made the right choice.
I'm a bit in the same position, just with a few more hours. Yet...
When it comes to salary, of course we're not exactly in a position to ask for billions, yet it should be decent.
I've always thought of myself, being in a cockpit, let's say having paid for every thing, t/r, rvsm/mnp courses, etc...Now obviously I owe some one (or the bank) a huge pile of money. And with such low salary, there's a very high chance that not only have I been eating pasta for months (adding the cpl/ir-me training won't help), but I have to pay the rent, and the car, and the cellphone, and the hotel when I arrive to my destination...Worst case scenario, I've received a bill last night and the bank called me an hour before the take-off...Will I be mentally fit to fly? Though a pro pilot, will I be able to focus on the flight 100%? Not likely to happen, so....

[plugster]

You get what you pay for...

[Pace]

Ahramin

Maybe but we are in the most awful situation at present I just went for a recurent on my FAA licence to the states. The situation there is dire with high houred captains even from the airlines sitting around doing nothing.
What chance does a 250 hr pilot have? Zero.

Why pay 15K for a type rating to act as a SIC ? There are far cheaper options to make you legal. OK go FS yes but they are not paying the money to expect you to go FS or simular. They want cheap give them cheap in your TR!

Two years ago I would have said no way but now its important to be in the system and he is unlikely to get another offer! sorry but thats being blunt.

In his situation he needs to talk to them and see if there is any more in the pot. If not take it and say bye bye when it suits him or something better comes along.

If the poster is a youngster with time on his side keep your present job until things improve in the next 5 years plus if not??? wait with 250 hrs for someone to caugh up 15K to type rate you get real.

Pace