Macedonia

[Yozzer]

British soldier killed in Macedonia

SKOPJE (Reuters) - A British soldier has been killed in Macedonia after youths apparently hurled a piece of concrete through the window of the NATO vehicle he was driving, alliance officials said.

His death overnight, south of the capital Skopje, was the first to hit NATO`s 4,500-strong force, hours before it began gathering thousands of guerrilla weapons under a peace mission viewed with widespread scepticism by ordinary Macedonians.

The Macedonian government, which had warned "Operation Essential Harvest" was destined to fail unless it did more than just collect rebel weapons, said the death was regrettable and offered its condolences to Britain and other NATO member states.


WTF are we doing there, smacks of over the top lads. Rotary mates watch out for the stones through the blades, some little people in NI tried that to the wokka once who got his revenge the following morning, but thats another story......

Gizza job, go on, I could do dat!

[Doctor Cruces]

We can't afford it, THEY don't want us there and whatever we do will be wrong.

If they can't solve their own problems what chance have we got?

If we can't solve OUR own closer to home problems what RIGHT have we got to impose our will on another country?

It's time that the British Government stopped believing that we are still a world power. If the U.S. WANTS to be the world's policeman, let them and let's save our money and spend it in our own country solving our own, many problems instead of trying to advertise Britain as the cavalry who always comes over the hill at the right moment.

After all, we have had fighters coming into the UK from a foreign country and shooting/bombing folks for years and no-one has come to help us take away their weapons, have they?

Doc C.

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Good to see we haven't learnt any lessons. Just over two years ago some members of the SH Force recieved similar treatment whilst driving in Skopje. Luckily they both survived and, rather pronto, it was arranged for metal grills to be fitted to all vehicle windsreens.

Yet again someone has paid the ultimate price.

[ 27 August 2001: Message edited by: Whipping Boy's SATCO ]

[15/15 flex]

Two years ago, there we were giving support - albeit unofficially - to the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo, now here we are trying to disarm the very people who were (supposedly) being repressed. What a f*cked up part of the world, that continues to claim the lives of the civilised world's best.

Do I have an answer, no.....but RIP to all those that have and will give their lives for what........

Flex

[Kiting for Boys]

“The Balkans are not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian grenadier.”

Otto von Bismarck

[Lucifer]

Well isn't it far better to sort it out now than pick up the pieces after they've massacred each other. "What is the role of the UK armed forces?" Ans: World policemen/peacekeepers. Not what many joined for but what must now be accepted in the non-Cold War world.

Think you'll find the Macedonians asked us in as well, so not imposing our will as the US would do.

[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: Lucifer ]

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Lucifer, if we're going to be an International Police Force, let's do it properly. We have learnt so many lessons about assymetric warfare from NI but failed to take many of these with us to the Balkans. I agree with many that yesterday's unfortunate incident was probably nothing more than some hooligans having a bit of misguided fun. However, the important point is that this lesson could have been learnt years ago. Speak to those who deployed to Macedonia/Albania in 1999 and you will find many who, despite being there at the invite of the host nation, recieved similar abuse.

Regarding us sorting the problem out before it gets worse, don't forget these people have been at each other since the 12th century. What sort of arrogance does it take for us to think we can resolve the issues in the relative blink of an eye.

Been there, seen it, done it, let them get on with it.

[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: Whipping Boy's SATCO ]

[Lucifer]

All true, but something is better than nothing.

[sprucemoose]

Doctor C:

You're right as to whether we have a right to intefere, but by sitting back today it will be our problem tomorrow. Yes! You can look forward to thousands of Macedonian asylum seekers joining the thousands of Kosovans still stuck here or trying to get in.

This was a very sad incident, and it does raise questions as to why our vehicles aren't better protected. They's look too threatening, I suppose. Let's hope everyone else really is out within a month, but I doubt it's that simple.

[TicketyBoo]

Kiting for Boys,

Didn't Bismarck say that about Schleswig-Holstein - the 19th century's equivalent complicated international shambles? I took a history O level, 25 years ago, and at last it has come in useful for something!

But the comment's just as valid for Macedonia today.

Sympathies to Ian Collins family.

TicketyBoo

[Kiting for Boys]

On Schleswig-Holstein

Palmerston's answer was

"There are three people in the world who understand this. Unfortunately one of them is dead, one of them is mad, and I have completely forgotten all about it".

[Bof]

Sorry if this isn't really a follow up to the thread, but the bit about having to try and do something, reminded me of a lecture I attended in the US of A about 18 months ago.
It was all about the abortive effort by the US to rescue their nationals who were being held hostage in Tehran some years back. Remember the incident where a manoeuvering helo clobbered the turning props of a 'sneaky pete' C130 and the whole lot went up in a ball of smoke and flame. The whole operation was blown. The helos were abandoned and the C130s were left to find thir way back home as best as they could. They dropped into Masirah and parked unobtrusively way over the far side of the field to get some kip. When they woke, they found a couple of cases of beer from the UK ATC controllers with a note pinned 'From all of us to all of you, for having the guts to try'. Thought you might be intersted.

[james_h]

What do you think of an Airmobile Brigade that deploys to theatre without any Air assets?

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

I think that it's not airmobile.

What's your point?

PS. I wasn't aware that a brigade had been deployed. Me taught at JSCSC that a battalion + CS/CSS is slightly smaller than a brigade.

[Bof]

The whole op was completely covert, six Hercs and eight navy helos I think. Very deep into Iran at night using a disused strip outside Tehran. All landings accomplished using night vision goggles. Don't forget, state of the art was around fifteen to twenty years ago. Only had enough space on the five Hercs left, for the helo crews and the Delta Force guys.

[MightyGem]

CB, I thought that were Army helos going?

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Bof, are you an American?

[two rackets]

Army helos have been taken out - get your facts right!

[james_h]

Oh yes, 4 Lynx that in the hot conditions haven't got the power to lift anything! - Good bit of planning that.

[Tiger_mate]

Teletext 311 Aug30 23:21:44

¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
TROOPS 'COULD STAY LONGER'

Foreign Secretary Jack Straw says his
best bet" is that British troops will
quit Macedonia after a 30-day deadline
but admits he cannot be certain.

The back-peddling has started!!
:mad: :mad:

[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: Tiger_mate ]

[Bof]

Sorry WBs SATCO. - Solid Sussex I'm afraid.
2 Rackets. - Sorry, Helos were 5 Marine RH53Ds and due to a realisation that some of the marine crews lacked the necessary experience, i.e. low level (below 200 ft) over the desert for 600 miles at night, they had to cobble up a mixed bag of pilots from the USMC,USN,US Army and USAF. They took off from the Nimitz in the Gulf on 24th April 1980. Two didn't make it due tech or nav problems and one hit a C130. Absolute minimum of 6 helos required for the snatch so whole Eagle Claw mission aborted. Story makes great reading.

[roydeanne]

Condolences to the young lads family. It is sobering to think that it could have happened while the boys were en route to Bzn - our motorway bridges have seen hooligans throwing concrete blocks at passing traffic as well!

After reading ur collective thoughts, they did n't interfere in our civil war why are we involved in theirs?