Dream Run for Jet*

[olddaycc]

Qantas has provided its biggest signal yet that its Jetstar operations could service the bulk of its international routes in the next decade, after confirming half its order for Boeing 787 Dreamliners would be diverted to the low-cost offshoot.
The airline yesterday clarified a presentation by its head of operations, Lyell Strambi, to analysts and fund managers this week, which outlined that Qantas expected to have 25 of the $US205 million ($A222.9 million) 787s in its fleet.
Some trade journals reported this as meaning Qantas would cut orders for the jets from 50 to 25.
In rejecting the reports, Qantas for the first time confirmed that 25 of the aircraft would be in its livery and the other 25 would be serviced by Jetstar.
The confirmation is five months after Qantas cut its order for 65 787s to 50, and pushed back the delivery of the first of them from next year to mid-2013.
While Qantas is expected to deploy its future fleet of 20 Airbus A380 superjumbos on its high-yielding business passenger-dominated Los Angeles and London routes, the first batch of shorter-haul 787-800s (instead of going into the Jetstar fleet as originally intended) are now due to replace Qantas' domestic fleet of 767s from 2014.
The longer-range 787-900s that will be delivered to Jetstar from 2013 are expected to help the airline's expansion into Europe, North America and several Asian destinations. But Jetstar is believed to be looking to fly to Europe as soon as late next year, when it takes delivery of the first of its five Airbus A330s, which will boost its wide-bodied fleet to 12.


Watch this space:D:rolleyes:

[SixDemonBag]

Wasnt this the original plan?....just 12 months late? I'll watch this space :rolleyes:

[ditch handle]

"Hi Fives" all round in the corporate offices of Singapore Airlines, Etihad, Emirates, Cathay, BA etc..........

[Red Jet]

And not forgetting V Australia:ok:

[ditch handle]

Yes, my apologies.

Of course :ok:

[Transition Layer]

"Hi Fives" all round in the corporate offices of Singapore Airlines, Etihad, Emirates, Cathay, BA etc..........

If you can't beat them....just give up!

[RedTBar]

If you can't beat them....just give up!
Or do you mean if you are not willing to fix the problem...just give up.if our leaders did that 60 or so years ago we'd all be eating bratwurst with sushi for dinner.

[Wod]

What has changed?. The first 15 787s were always going to Jetstar.

Jetstar was designed to pull in International market share for The Group by exploiting markets that full-cost Qantas cannot profit from.

And the Double Decker Bus is a four-class mainline aircraft going to Mainline QF.

Certainly not Jetstar operations could service the bulk of its international routes in the next decade

I don't get you guys. Do you want Jetstar to be sold off, so that QF can continue to decline gracefully into whatever it is that companies decline into these days?:E

[Boomerang_Butt]

the first batch of shorter-haul 787-800s (instead of going into the Jetstar fleet as originally intended) are now due to replace Qantas' domestic fleet of 767s from 2014.

Halle-frikkin-lujah!!!! Not soon enough in my opinion!

[DirectAnywhere]

I guess the big question is who will be flying them for Jetstar? I got 10 bucks says the majority won't be flown by Australian based crews.

Any takers?:ok:

[Cactusjack]

It would appear that Jetstar is 'the new black' !!
Fantastic news.Growth, job creation, adding value to the Qantas Group ! It is perfect really. In 70 years time the kids choir will be singing tunes that 'stir the emotions to the core of the soul' to the background footage of those beautiful silver aircraft with stunning orange belly's and suave livery.

Let us celebrate the birth of the new king of the skies.

[Mobi LAME]

It's amazing how many people believe what QANTAS says when it suits them, only to bag them as liars and idiots when it doesn't suit them. When I see a 787 in a Jetstar paint scheme come in over the fence, then I'll believe it. From all the management talk I've heard over the years, I know that rarely does the reality meet the rhetoric.

[Metro man]

Jetstar could base the 787s in Singapore and have a lower cost base compared to Australia. Using SIN as a hub certainly works for SQ. Daily services from the Australian capital cities into SIN then onward to Europe, China, India, SE Asia.

Sydney - Bombay may not be viable but a feed from SYD, MEL, PER, BNE, ADL into SIN and then onwards might be, especially with the cost savings.

Leave the high yield LHR route to mainline and open up new routes which previously wouldn't have paid.

Get back at SQ for starting Tiger Australia as well.

[CaptCloudbuster]

I'd be getting worried if I was a Jet* Pilot.....

This today from Jetstar in the SMH (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-revs-up-jetstar-expansion-20091125-jrsr.html):eek:


''We're making no decisions beyond aircraft number seven,'' said Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway. The airline has not ruled out the prospect of its part-owned Singapore- and Ho Chi Minh City-based subsidiaries using the jets.

[dodgybrothers]

why would you be worried? Let them have the jets, its a horses arse over there, its only smoke and mirrors from management anyway. Jq aus has job security and steady growth the only people worried would be anyone wanting to join for a quick command.

[Wod]

''We're making no decisions beyond aircraft number seven,'' said Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway. The airline has not ruled out the prospect of its part-owned Singapore- and Ho Chi Minh City-based subsidiaries using the jets.

And those seven would be the replacements for the A330 being returned to Mainline.

Really playing it close to the chest.

Doesn't change the published strategy though.

The market will decide the relative growth rates of International QF and JQ. No conspiracy there - just reality.

[kiwilad]

Won't the good ole brothers at JQ NZ get some as well before JQ OZ, lower cost base and all that.

Wonder when JQ OZ figure out that what happened to Qantas growth is about to come down the pipes at them. Flying with JQ NZ contract pilots with JQ OZ contract pilots in the same cockpit is really the thin edge of the wedge or the wrong end of the pineapple.

Will watch with interest.

[oneday_soon]

I know this has been managements plan from the start, but how many years before you see Jetstar rebranded as Qantas colours, but with a complete low cost base working for it. Why else would they be growing Jetstar to clearly the detriment of mainline if they never intended to re-brand Jet* back to Qantas. Maybe a decade away???

[teresa green]

So what the hell do you do with 36,000 QF staff, who are not remotely interested working for any less money than they are now? What happens to them, as slowly but surely JQ starts taking over the reins as time goes on? To me QF will become a boutique airline servicing only LAX and LHR, the rest will go to the joey. Any young pilot who asks me now what do I have to do to get into QF, I say don't bother, head for JQ, you might get less pay, and fly your butt off, but at least you will get a command before you get arthritis, how times have changed.

[blow.n.gasket]

Ah, how quickly the dream becomes a nightmare!:}
PS Teresa,So Qantas Staff are to blame for not accepting lower pay and conditions. Before all your objectivity is lost whilst in the rapures of Jetstar groupy ecstacy, ask Jetstar people of what the think of Jetstar NZ,and if they are willing to uproot and accept those conditions all in the name of feathering the nest egg of Qantas Group executives!:}

[CaptCloudbuster]

Any young pilot who asks me now what do I have to do to get into QF, I say don't bother, head for JQ, you might get less pay, and fly your butt off, but at least you will get a command before you get arthritis,

But which arm of JQ do you recommend for said quick command?

Vietnam, Singapore or NZ?

[jtr]

But which arm of JQ do you recommend for said quick command?

Vietnam, Singapore or NZ?

Good Question. No seniority list in NZ so can bid across from JQ OZ and take the slots as you wish and have the right to come back to OZ when you want...

[Bula]

65000 nzd for an FO........ Crazy

[kiwilad]

Will be very interesting to see if they do get the chance to come back to the OZ list. But to me that is crazy, happy to go help out a lower cost operator on their conditions and hope to come back when it suits? I guess you are betting that all the work you left is still there when you want to return.

Wonder if JQ Oz pilots will stand up when JQ NZ pilots start doing 3-5 day tours around OZ.....?:ugh::ugh:

[Metro man]

So Jetstar Australia can operate with NZ pilots and Asian cabin crew on pay and conditions far below Australian low cost airline terms.

But Jetstar was created to operate below QANTAS mainline pay and conditions.

When the bottom is reached do we stop there or start digging harder ?

[Tempo]

you might get less pay, and fly your butt off, but at least you will get a command before you get arthritis

Mmmm........tell me what the benefits are of flying for Jetstar?? Less pay = not a benefit. Fly your butt off=not a benefit. Command = Benefit but you will be on less pay and fly your butt off therefore NOT a benefit. Unless you just 'want to be a captain' to either a) boost your self esteem or b) chase contract work overseas there are no benefits. The latter of the two is NOT appealing to most people as the older one gets (with responsibilities such as mortgages and family) the more one desires/requires stability.

I would recommend the opposite to anyone, go for Qantas over JQ. Sure you may not be able to call yourself Captain for a long time but there is much more to life than sitting bored ****less in the left hand seat doing shark patrol.

[dodgybrothers]

"Wonder if JQ Oz pilots will stand up when JQ NZ pilots start doing 3-5 day tours around OZ.....?"


Or you guys could show the rest of us what you will do when Jetconnect does the same thing.........

[CaptCloudbuster]

AIPA is on the verge of commencing a strategy and campaign to tackle the pilot issues associated with globalisation. As a single, yet important, component of this strategy, the AIPA President is in discussions with our colleagues in New Zealand...... and

The threat of globalisation is as much a threat to our Jetstar members as it is to our Qantas members.

Guess you'll just have to join AIPA if you want to know more;)

You could of course just hope for the best:ouch:

[Captain Dart]

AIPA has left it all twenty years too late; the chickens from their apathy and inaction then and since are now coming home to roost...

[neville_nobody]

Guys what we are seeing is the result of globalisation where third world countries white ant the first world with unliveable salaries. It has happened across many industries aviation is just another one.

Regulation is the only way to stop it but the government seems hell bent on having a free market in everything so that isn't going to stop the downward spiral.

Jetstar could base the 787s in Singapore and have a lower cost base compared to Australia.

Not necessarily. Management types look at Asian salaries and think all their Christmas's have come at once. What they forget is to look at is the training budget....

Remember Asian airlines pay for the entire cost of training all their pilots from day one. Try floating that idea around at an Australian airline management meeting.

[A. Le Rhone]

Why don't you stop sniping at each other like children and collectively work together to improve ALL of your fortunes.

I think it must be nearly 10 years I've been watching PPRuNe contributors bitching and moaning at each other it's becoming depressing.

Why not convert the 'armchair-expert' energy into something tangible and actually DO something.

Joining AIPA and the AFAP and the Jet* pilots groups would be a good start.

Sadly I am positive that in 10 years most of you will still be bitching on here at one another, placed right where your employers want you, while the Dixons of this world waltz off to the bank with tens of millions of dollars.

Pilots like to pride ourselves as being a little smarter than most but we sure as hell aren't demonstrating that here or in the way we are handling our careers.

[KABOY]

What about Singapore and Vietnam. Every time you try to bring several opposing parties to the table, management will find another one to use against you.

Sadly this is too little, too late.

AIPA your forefathers have destroyed any chance of one united pilot group, maybe they should try and negotiate some competitive pay scales for their own future survival and then build on it.

[Ken Borough]

Pilots like to pride ourselves as being a little smarter than most

Oh please give us a break! Judging by some of the drivel written on PPRUNE, I think only pilots with a delusionary view of the world would think like this. Some w@nkers just can't help themselves - if pilots are a little smarter than most as suggested, how come so many are leading the race to the bottom of the food-chain? :mad::mad:

[Tassie Devil]

We have to wait untill a large % of Q mainline pilots have finished before we can think of ever having 1 pilot group in Aust !

[Tankengine]

You mean with equal low wages??:ugh:

[lowerlobe]

But Jetstar was created to operate below QANTAS mainline pay and conditions.
When the bottom is reached do we stop there or start digging harder ?
The situation is that the snow ball was started by management years ago and it is increasing in mass and speed as it rolls down the mountain....

The problem is with mercenary management hiring or with the ability to hire pilots and cabin crew off shore on unrealistic pay scales for those living in Australia...

The benefit for those office dwellers like Ken Borough is that the airlines cannot bring in office workers from OS easily....

We are a victim of our own circumstances and jealousies of those who work...sorry occupy the offices of our airlines.

[A. Le Rhone]

Yes lowerlobe to a degree we are victims of those office dwellers, I have seen that many times.

BUT we are not helping ourselves by constantly niggling at each other and taking pride in the fact 'we' get some little term or condition more than our fellow pilot. Consequently we like to undermine our colleagues so we feel better about our lot.

We may be competitive and that's not a bad thing, but it IS bad when it's at the expense of our fellow pilots. We like to think we're a little smarter than the average bloke on the street but if PPRuNe posts are indicative then we are our own worst enemies not the office dwellers.

And still the cheap sniping and niggling will continue..........

[donkey punch]

i just had a call from jetstar H.R. They were offering an interview. I asked the base and the pay, and it was a darwin base and the pay was 82,000!!!!!!!
I asked if it was negotiable and they laughed, so i laughed back.
Isn't darwin the most f**king expensive city in australia (and the hottest!!!)
Why would you. Oh yes, and thirty grand for an endorsement.
so make that 52,000.

[Transition Layer]

Have a look at this: Jetstar Phone Interview (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/397135-jetstar-phone-interview.html)

Those guys all seem pretty excited at the prospect of working for the 'shining star' of Australian aviation!

[lowerlobe]

A. Le Rhone....

What I meant was that the office dwellers exploit human nature....

Imagine if Darth set up a chain of cut price solicitors,medical clinics or whatever just as the LCC's are set up...

Do you think established solicitors and doctors would not be outraged at other solicitors and doctors doing the same jobs for less money and longer hours or whatever just so they can get a job in a certain location..?

There are countless examples of people turning on each other when the chips are down and you are talking about livelihoods being affected or lost.

Personally,I would like to see someone set up a business where they can supply suitably qualified directors for boards.....but for a lot less money.

[grrowler]

TL (and others), I am consistently surprised by your bitter outbursts against anyone not in mainline. You have the best job in the world (according to you - which is really what counts:cool:), so why not enjoy it? It is easy to get caught up in the politics of a group or industry sector and forget why you are there. Furthermore one can get worked up about things one cannot change - just relax...

There are many, many pilots out there who are too dumb, too smart (?), too old, too married, too whatever to get a job with mainline (when they happen to be hiring). These people need to work somewhere, and anyone with some passion for flying would understand that these people need to stay in the industry. Where should they work? GA - maybe, overseas - again a personal choice - that leaves a few non-mainline airlines to choose from.

If more people would direct their anger and energy at the management making the decisions , rather than bringing out the knives and stabbing each other, this industry would be a whole lot better - right down to the GA level.

[Transition Layer]

grrowler,

Where was the bitter outburst? I merely pointed out to donkey punch that whilst he wasn't all that keen on the Jetstar T&Cs, there seems to be plenty of people out there who are.

And yes, management are partly to blame for the ever-diminishing pay packets of pilots, but in the case of Jetstar it took a group of pilots (in the guise of Impulse) to enable them to do so.

It's a case of what came first - the chicken or the egg?

[teresa green]

Mine was a simple question, what do you do with 36,000 staff, when your once viable airline, is reduced to a couple of routes eg: LHR and LAX? It was not a attack on QF nor a leg up for JQ, the reality is the future is starting to look all blury for the national carrier, and for a young pilot, I would be looking further afield, in this country anyway. The maths are if QF continues to give away routes at the rate they are doing so, and have done so over the last couple of years, if you are 25 yrs old, a S/O, you would have to start to wonder just what lies ahead. Are you ever going to get a command or does dementia come first. If this airline continues to shrink under the gaze of a CEO who wants profit first, your career iooks pretty shaky to say the least, as far as a command goes, that is as the fleet shrinks so does your command chances. Your choice, as unpalatable as it is to some QF folk out there, do I go for less money, but a much better chance of a command, with a LCC (who are here to stay that you can be sure of) or do I stick with the big fella and hope it goes back to its glory days (as they said in the Castle "your dreamin") the world has changed, aviation has changed, ask any american pilot, their money has gone backwards at a rate of knots, the good days as I knew them have gone, ask the skipper (if he is in his last few years of flying) as you head up the track, I will bet you his answer will be "im glad to be getting out of it, its stuffed" and there will be plenty of S/Os out there, who will wonder if their JQ mates are not better off, as they stay on shark patrol, for the forseeable future. You would seriously have to think hard, before you applied to QF these days.

[grrowler]

TL, perhaps "bitter outburst" wasn't the right phrase, regardless you need to relax. To pretend that if it wasn't for some Impulse pilots, there wouldn't be a Jetstar is misguided naivety - this reduction of conditions has happened across a variety of industries.

And why shouldn't those pilots with Jetstar interviews be excited - I know it was a looong time ago, but think back to when you were in GA.

[an3_bolt]

if you are 25 yrs old

....ahhh - if only I was 25 again........I would go back to university and do something else that actually has a career in it.

Now - if I win Lotto......

[lowerlobe]

. Are you ever going to get a command or does dementia come first
Perhaps this is something the latest generation is conditioned for...we want everything now or else...

When I started 2nd officers did get that senior and were expected to wait for their chance at the right hand seat let alone the left hand seat....

I read on another thread where someone said how do you expect a 2nd officer to be able to live in Sydney on their pay.This really meant how do you expect a 2nd officer to live on the northern beaches or the Eastern suburbs with 2.2 children and a Merc on a measly $175000....

I guess this is the reasoning behind calling them generation 'Y'....

Why can't we have everything now......:(

[hotnhigh]

Well said teresa. Only point, however, is the amount of cash one would make over your entire career. Ball park figures would suggest that currently you have a minimum of about 5 years as so to then take the absolute first fo slot. (and sliding) another 10+ for the elusive first command, (and sliding even further!) compared to time in Jetstar for your command. Agreed that you might earn less in the rank but the time in rank might make the decision of where you should aim for slightly different. Sadly, the way that jetstar has smashed the guts out of career progression in qantas, will only continue in Jetstar with jetstar pacific or jetstar cheapo or whoever or whereever else they can start an offshoot, as qantas management continue to strive for "efficiencies."
Unfortunately the sad way that pilot groups have acted and are pitted against each other still untimately drives the career of pilot into the thick rough.
Interesting options to weigh up

[A. Le Rhone]

You guys have MUCH more power than you imagine, albeit not by your own doing.

By virtue of the power of Keynesian Economics and Say's Law (of Supply and Demand), if you work COHESIVELY you can turn your lot around within 2 years.

Bottom line is globally the very clear trend is to massive airliner purchases and production but severely declining new pilot numbers. It's too expensive and ultimately unrewarding to become a Professional Pilot nowadays.

So for those of us left (even in a country such as Australia, traditionally overstocked with pilots - hence the "Jet* race to the bottom" problem) all we need to do is put past animosities behind us and work towards the future. The demand for pilots will far outstrip the supply so now is the time to start taking advantage of this scenario to improve Terms and Conditions to where they should be - specifically major salary and so-called workplace and lifestyle improvements.

Is there any chance that the AFAP, AIPA and Jet* groups can somehow come together to achieve this aim or are we to be relegated to whining forever on PPRuNe and never achieving anything?

[breakfastburrito]

You guys have MUCH more power than you imagine, albeit not by your own doing.

Ding ding ding, this is precisely the reason for the divide & conqueror strategy! It is an implicit admission that the pilot group is powerful. Why expend considerable effort & money destroying a group that had no power in the first place? You wouldn't.

If only people could wake up and see the enemy is sitting in the offices, not the flight deck.

[donkey punch]

i am not sure why everyone thinks jetstar will be a rapid moving career. If all the guys getting in now are in their twenties and are being told they will have commands in a few years, then they will be thirty odd, and have thirty years ahead of them in jetstar(and you will need that much time before you can retire on those conditions). So where the F**K will the progression be??? It will be the same as the second officer qantas thing, noone will be retiring or moving on because there will be nowhere else to go, because they will all be too afraid. So enjoy the 82 grand for the next ten years.

[desmotronic]

The september numbers speak for themselves and the writing has been on the wall for a decade or more. No suprises here. Its their train set after all.:ok:




Qantas Domestic: traffic -1.6%, capacity -4.6%, load factor +2.7pts on pcp to 85.0%.


Qantas International: traffic -5.4%, capacity -11.5%, load factor +5.4pts on pcp to 84.6%.


QantasLink: traffic -6.5%, capacity -4.2%, load factor -1.8pts on pcp to 72.1%.


Jetstar Domestic: traffic +3.3%, capacity +1.0%, load factor +1.9pts on pcp to 85.9%.


Jetstar International: traffic +49.5%, capacity +45.5%, load factor +2.0pts on pcp to 76.6%.

[Sunstar320]

Impressive domestic LF results there from J* on Domestic, looks like all that advertising is paying off ..

[an3_bolt]

....sticking the bums on the seats is easy - the real news is in the yield produced from those load factors. Without the yield the figures do not really mean much as to how much money you are really making/losing.

[longjohn]

Donkey,

Whilst retirements are a part of the equation, growth is the progression mantra at JQ.

With significant growth ahead again this year, progression through retirements will be at best an afterthought.

Pilots joining tomorrow can enjoy progression though to A320 command in around 5 years. This will eventually slide out as the airline grows, however this is not going to be a concern for the forseeable future.

From 15 to 45 aircraft in 5 years with another 50 A320's on order and 15 - 25 Widebodies = plenty more growth.

[breakfastburrito]

longjohn, I admire your optimisim.
The Jetstar group, comprising Jetstar Australia, Jetstar Pacific, Jetstar Asia, Jetstar NZ & other as yet unnamed franchises may well accept delivery of all the aircraft you mentioned.
History will probably reveal your "growth is the progression mantra" to be a mirage, a cruel illusion perpetrated by cunning managers to suck pilots into accept lower T&C.


I would love to be proved wrong, but history is on my side.

[donkey punch]

i think the burrito has it, yes there will be expansion, but the crews will be sourced from far flung regions where eba's are known as s.t.d's(yes sexually transmitted) jet star new zealand springs to mind. The mexicans of the pacific.

[hotnhigh]

Or join Qantas in your mid to late twenties and have no hope of a command look in until your late forties!:D

[Captain Sherm]

Edmund Burke said long ago: “All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing”.

We now live with the proof of that embedded in our daily lives. All of Australia’s pilots now are well into the 3rd decade long programme of recovery from the Qantas’ pilot group’s selfish decision to leave the AFAP and maroon the rest of Australia’s pilots. This was worsened by the decision by the Qantas group not to seek, however great the cost might have been, a scope clause……then to stand aside in 1989…..then to cruelly humiliate and reject the Impulse pilots….then to knuckle under over JetConnect and Jetstar….we will live with those actions (or inactions) for a long time.

It is how we manage this phase of the recovery that will define the progress of the profession.

There’s no point wishing that LCCs didn’t exist. They do and lots of good jobs have been created as a result. AIPA and the AFAP cannot and should not try to undo that particular Gordian Knot. Can’t and shouldn’t be done. And slanging matches against other pilots be they better off or worse is completely counter-productive and only helps the anti-pilot Neanderthals.

There is a lot that we can do. If AIPA has had a genuine change of heart and are now willing to contemplate the benefits of a single pilot body (though with separate pilot councils) then that is a great step forward. They can't seek to dominate it but they must seek to support it. I hope in my heart that it’s true. The task is ahead of us all.

[Captain Dart]

Too true, Sherm. Could QF pilots become tigers after the pussies they have been since 1989?

[mohikan]

You effing ar$holes.

Point 1 - AIPA staying out of the dispute was eminently sensible given the results. Look at what passed for strategy in 1989 and draw your own conclusions. AIPA being 'in' the dispute or not would have had no difference on the out come. Speak to Wayne Kearns (then president) for further insight. Bet you dont have the balls to though.

Point 2 - AIPA has consistently pushed for an 'AUSALPA' type arrangement with specific airline councils under one umbrella, with no loss of autonomy for any one. This proposal has consistently been torpedoed by Cox and his merry band because they fear the loss of their own power and jobs. Additonally, the JPC (hi Rick with a silent P) LIED to Holt and refused pro bono AIPA help and deliberately and vexatiously negotiated the A330 deal to cause the maximum damage to mainline pilots. A very senior Qantas consultant recently described the JQ A330 deal as "our finest hour in the long running war to bust the pilots".

Point 3 - Both your attitudes are indicative of why, collectively, we are rooted. If you spent less time agonising on a false and distorted view of history and the desire to 'get square' with a group of pilots who mostly were not even employed when the events you incorrectly describe occurred AND instead spent more time trying to improve your own lot in life then solutions to the problems that face the Australian pilot workforce would be at hand.

Rant Over

[Transition Layer]

Captains Sherm and Dart,

Have you ever considered that approximately 2/3 of all Qantas pilots joined in 1990 or later.

Personally, I was 8 years old at the time of the dispute. I have flown with a number of guys who were ex-dispute and uprooted young families to live and work abroad and along with all the others, I admire them for sticking to their guns.

However.......as I see it, it should have little or no relevance to how Jetstar pilots negotiate their agreements in the current day, and into the future.

If the JPC approaches it as "you abandoned us in 89, so we'll undercut you by X% now" then the future QF/JQ pilots are the ones who are screwed, not anyone in AIPA (or Qantas for that matter) in 1989.

I know which union is pushing harder for AusALPA and it sure as **** ain't AFAP.

And if we're speaking of tigers, the present-day AFAP is nothing but a perfect specimen of the toothless variety.