View Full Version : RAAF first with JSF

25th Nov 2009, 19:44
RAAF first to put joint strike fighter on flightline | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/politics/raaf-first-to-put-joint-strike-fighter-on-flightline/story-e6frgczf-1225803948129)

No source code either.Yet another debacle in the making ?

25th Nov 2009, 21:11
A new fighter, and we didn't even need a competition! As for those source codes...:suspect:

25th Nov 2009, 21:22
ATC thought that it was impossible to fly the JSF F-35's without the source codes....

....Little did they know the pilot was Australian.....

25th Nov 2009, 21:26
... and so we see that yet again, despite multiple examples in recent and not so recent history to go on, someone in Canberra has forgotton - or disregarded - that most sage of all adages in Aviation:

Never buy the 'A' model of anything.

25th Nov 2009, 21:28
In fairness, if I was given the option for purchasing a toy like that I wouldn't really mind if it came with Ikea-like assembly instructions.

25th Nov 2009, 21:34
In fairness, if I was given the option for purchasing a toy like that I wouldn't really mind if it came with Ikea-like assembly instructions.

Yeah, like fitting airbags in your car with an allen key:hmm:

There will be trouble...

Going Boeing
26th Nov 2009, 02:10
The Government has approved acquisition of the first 14 Conventional Take-Off and Landing (CTOL) Joint Strike Fighters

(November 25, 2009) -- The Minister for Defence, Senator John Faulkner, today announced that the Australian Government had approved acquisition of the first batch of F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) aircraft as foreshadowed in the 2009 Defence White Paper.

There has been considerable public interest in the potential acquisition of the F-35 JSF. The Government examined the JSF's capabilities very carefully in the context of the Air Combat Capability Review and 2009 Defence White Paper deliberations, and remains confident that the JSF's combination of stealth, advanced sensors, networking and data fusion capabilities, when integrated into the networked Australian Defence Force (ADF), will ensure Australia maintains its strategic capability advantage out to 2030.

The Government has approved acquisition of the first 14 Conventional Take-Off and Landing (CTOL) Joint Strike Fighters and infrastructure and support required for initial training and testing, at an estimated cost of $3.2 billion.

"Approval of this first batch of JSF aircraft is evidence of the Rudd Government's strong commitment to defence and our commitment to implementing the Defence White Paper," Senator Faulkner said.

Approval of the next batch of aircraft and all necessary support and enabling capabilities, sufficient to establish three operational squadrons and a training squadron of CTOL JSF, will be considered in 2012. This will fulfil our White Paper commitment to acquire three operational squadrons comprising not fewer than 72 aircraft.

"By 2012, Defence will have much firmer cost estimates for the remaining aircraft and necessary support and enabling capabilities as part of the planned first multi-year buy that is expected to comprise over 1000 aircraft for the US, Australia and other partners. This will allow for much more effective planning of the final JSF acquisition in the context of the overall Defence Capability Plan," Senator Faulkner said.

Acquisition of an additional operational squadron - bringing the total number of JSF aircraft to around 100 - will be considered at a later date in conjunction with a decision on the withdrawal of the F/A-18F Super Hornet.

Australia's first JSF aircraft will be delivered in the United States in 2014 to commence initial training and test activities. Australia's first operational squadron will be based at Royal Australian Air Force Base Williamtown, and is planned to be ready for operations in 2018. All three operational squadrons are planned to be in service in 2021.

The decision follows many years of unprecedented evaluation and planning by all nine countries involved in the JSF's development.

"Defence has done more analysis on this platform than any other platform in the acquisition history of the ADF," Senator Faulkner said.

Chief of the Air Force, Air Marshal Mark Binskin said: "The JSF acquisition will allow Australia to maintain its regional air combat superiority. It will also enable Australia to effectively contribute to regional security and enhances opportunities for interoperability and commonality to support future coalition operations."

To date, 25 Australian companies have won approximately US$200 million in the development and early production phase of the JSF. As Australia and other countries commit to JSF acquisition, significantly increased opportunities for Australian industry will open up, as agreed in the Industry Participation Plan with Lockheed Martin and its JSF industry partners.

Minister for Defence Personnel, Materiel and Science, Greg Combet said: "Government and Industry will need to continue to work together as JSF Team Australia to maximise benefits for Australian industry in the JSF Program in the face of stiff international competition. Consideration of acquisition of the next batch of aircraft in 2012 will provide Government the opportunity to review Lockheed Martin's progress on implementing the Industry Participation Plan.

"It is important that where Australian companies offer value for money, Lockheed Martin and its JSF industry partners give fair consideration to Australian industry," Minister Combet said.

The Government's acquisition decision will also allow Lockheed Martin and its JSF industry partners to establish formal relationships with Australian industry to meet Australia's defence self reliance requirements in supporting the JSF.

"Our commitment to the JSF will allow Australian industry to become integrated into the global JSF support system, ensuring our aircraft are supported in the most cost effective way. Commitment to the JSF also opens up opportunities for Australian industry to contribute to regional and global support of the JSF," Minister Combet said.

The Program Manager, Air Vice-Marshal John Harvey said: "This acquisition decision cements our commitment to the JSF Program and our commitment to the US and other international partners to make the JSF Program a great success."

Source : MoD Australia

The PM
26th Nov 2009, 06:08
no, we bought the "C" model......

Hat, coat, door.......

26th Nov 2009, 06:39
Any Pig-related (especially with respect to the acquisition process) are best addressed to, and answered by, Milt. :ok:

The PM
26th Nov 2009, 09:53
mmmmbop.........you really should learn to read beyond what's actually written.I believe thats taught in primary school comprehension or at the very least hammered into you in high school English.......

26th Nov 2009, 11:46
The PM, we did initially order the F-111A but later changed the order slightly so that we had the fuselage of the "A" model but the strengthened undercarriage and the longer wingspan of the FB-111A. In reality we ended up with a mixture of two different "A" models. Seems to of worked well.:)

Buster Hyman
26th Nov 2009, 12:16
I had a P76/A once...that ran...okay-ish. Is the Collins Sub an A model?

The PM
26th Nov 2009, 13:59
707....I'm well aware of that, hence my previous post....sheesh.....

27th Nov 2009, 07:28
Didn't we do that with the F111? I recall reading, and also had it relayed from someone who was involved firsthand, about some of the rubbish written about it, and the uproar in the media/political circles about its purchase.

Seems it turned out quite well, don't you think.......?

How it turned out doesn't often tell the real story of exposure through project delays and block obsolescence of your current fleet.

The F111 was ordered in the early 60's during a period of great uncertainty in Asia- Confrontation, Vietnam etc. It was high risk as it was ordered off the drawing board unproven ( like JSF ).

The F111 left Australia grossly exposed for 10 years relying on the obsolete Canberra bomber which was deployed to Vietnam in the south. The north was a political no-go but it was not equipped to counter the SAM threat anyway. Indonesia at the time had a SAM's and MIG's in their arsenal!

With further delays, the RAAF leased F4's. A proven aeroplane in service and in action in Vietnam and the War of Attrition in the Middle East. Incidentally, the F4's air to air capability wasn't fully utilized in the RAAF and it was used as a bomber.

If we were ever at war in the late 60's the F111 project would have been a disaster in hindsight as the RAAF was reliant on the Canberra ( obsolete ) and the Mirage ( woefully short range in the attack role for any scenario at the time).

Winding forward to today and there are similarities. If we are going to be at war in the next 3 to 10 years a further order of 24 Super Hornets would be the lowest risk option. Further JSF delays, low numbers and under developed and unproven capabilities are high risk in my opinion.

ramble on
27th Nov 2009, 07:58
Out of interest what are the thought processes on single engine fighters being right for the RAAFs small fleet??

How many engine failures have the 404s suffered on 18's over the last 20 years? And what would have been the 18's hull loss rate had they been singles?

Its a different time and technology, but the Mirage loss rate due to engine problems seemed to be quite high over its service life.

27th Nov 2009, 08:00
I remember well- the late 60's and the early 70's when the F1-11 project and the Sydney Opera House (a shocking cost blow out to $100m...) were the boxing bags of the media.

What lemons they have both turned out to be...................

Thankfully after a successful introduction of the pig and opening of the Opera House Golf Whitlam :{:{ kindly provided a bloke to write about by the name of John Kerr (or was that CUR ?????).

Buster Hyman
27th Nov 2009, 09:43
The F111 turned out alright, but were going to be stuck for years with that God awful Opera House! :rolleyes:

Gnads...it's all about perspective isn't it! More Supers or perhaps a few of those new Eagles should cover the gap....:E

28th Nov 2009, 05:35
There have been a number of engine failures in the Hornet over the years but this is a moot point when discussing the validity of buying a SE fighter. It was designed from the start as a 2 eng jet. Aussie Hawk 127s (for example) have been in service since 2001 and have not had any serious engine trouble as yet. (touch wood)

30th Nov 2009, 03:30
Aussie Hawk 127s (for example) have been in service since 2001 and have not had any serious engine trouble as yet. (touch wood)

More by good management than any inherent design redundancy built in. Canada and the USN have lost a few Hawks from engine failures, and we're currently operating ours restricted. Initial project fleet planning called for us to have lost 3-4 Hawks by now, and 7 by life of type.

None of the four Hornets we've lost have been lost due to any systems failures - two x CFIT, one x pilot removing mask, and one mid-air!