Citation TR in flight or on simulator?

[mcfly749]

Hi all, I'm a young french CPL IR ME MCC. Are there any CJ pilots that may have passed their TR in France (Agen or Cannes), or at FSI Farnborough. I'm wondering wether, for a first TR, it's better to have it with 8 or 9 flight hrs depending on the TRTO, or about 30 simulator hrs like it's proposed by FSI.
Thanks.

[733driver]

Simulator. Period.

Especially for a first TR. The sim training allows you to simulate a lot of emergencies that connot safely be simulated in an aircraft.

Smoke in the cockpit, decompressions, etc. Yes, you can simulate an engine out by pulling one engine back to idle. But it is potentially more dangerous in the real aircraft and only somewhat realistic. In the sim you can have unwanted thrust reverser deployment (well, not in the CJ), vibrations, flight control problems etc.

The sim will never feel exactly like the aircraft but that's not the point. It is very good for practicing emergeny procedures.

If sim training is available, go for it.

If FSI are too expensive, explore alternatives, especially in the USA (SimCom for examle).

Hope tghis helps. Best of luck for your first jet type rating.

[mcfly749]

Sure that helps. What you say just confirms what i'm being told at the moment by many pilots i know.
FSI are not so expensive (maybe for me as pound is less strong than it used to be compared to euro :ok:)

If i go for FSI, is there anyone that knows if the "full service" program is worth the price for a 1st TR (2200 pounds more expensive than the classic one) ?

Does FSI usually pair you up with another pilot or do i have to find one by myself? (it's much more interesting if we're 2 pilots, regarding the number of hours offered in the curriculum)

Thanks for your answers.

[ab33t]

I agree training on emergency procedures are best done on the SIM , there is the flip side though a check ride on a sim is more challenging than the actual plane . If you have the experience I would recomend the SIM everytime

[Midland Transport]

I honestly would do some of both both for a first TR. As said the emergency procedures are only for the SIM but you will benefit hugely the first time you fly for real if you have some real life hours. Many instructors I am sure will advise this route for a first TR. Key is your experience to date but that is IMHO the best value for money and the safest approach.

[mcfly749]

The problem is that I can't find any TRTO providing sim AND flight... Seems that in Europe the only sim is located is Farnborough, but they don't provide any flight hour in the curriculum.
So the choice is :
8 or 9 flight hours, maybe not enough to really deal with abnormal situations. And ATC can make your hour of training look like half!
32 hours on a full motion simulator, well we all agree that's not real flying, but really looks like anyway.

What I'm wondering is how i'll feel when i'll fly the citation for the first time?

[His dudeness]

What I'm wondering is how i'll feel when i'll fly the citation for the first time?

You´ll be surprised how easy it flies.

[mcfly749]

I can imagine. That will be great :ok:

[mcfly749]

Where have you done your TR? In England?
Concerning doing it in the US, I'm not sure I'll find a JAA aproved TR there. Have you heard about that? I think it will be more simple to do it in Europe mainly for that reason, even if it's possible to find cheaper in the US...

[His dudeness]

FSI Wichita / Kansas can give you a JAA CR for the CJ series. I did it myself in 2002 there. Have a look at their homepage.

I don´t how restricting the TSA bull**** is for the CJ, but I won´t go back into the US for training if I can avoid it. Their paranoia is disgusting. All the while the europeans will give them insight into swift account transactions if the legislation (most like it will) passes next monday.

BTT, if you fly the CJ as your first jet class rating with little experience, it will fly away from you anyhow. The sim gives you all the time you need to discuss what happens because the trainer can freeze it. The learning curve is steeper.
I did my CJ2 rating on the airplane, because no sim slot was available and went to the sim 4 months later (I had a 500/550/560 rating and experience before).
I learned way more in the sim than on the airplane.

[mcfly749]

Copied. I'm about to book at FSI Farnborough for February, if I find another pilot to pair up with... Thanks all for your answers. That helped a lot!:ok:

[No RYR for me]

Agree 100% with His Dudeness: alsways the sim and if not possible: the sim ;)

[His dudeness]

if I find another pilot to pair up with

do you have to? I thought FSI would do that for you?

[mcfly749]

Yes they should find one by Feb, but no one has booked yet. No problem about that.
For the 1st TR you also have to do few landings to validate it.
Do you know if I have to do them with a TRTO instructor, or if it's ok with a private owner of a CJ?

[His dudeness]

Its got to be a CRI doing the landings with you. Normally it could be any CRI, not a FSI one. (such as me....) Double check with your authority though, you never know with them...

The private owner would normally not work. (at least here in Germany...)

[mcfly749]

That's what I thought. I'll check and find one then. Thanks