BMI puts 600 jobs at risk?

[turbowhat]

Any more news on this? where will they be going from? :bored:

[JAR]

Thread on Airlines Airports and Routes

[K.Whyjelly]

Flights from Heathrow to Brussels, Tel Aviv, Kiev and Aleppo will be suspended in early 2010 with services from Heathrow to Amsterdam being suspended at the end of the winter 2009/10 period. We will however still continue to offer services from London to Brussels through our codeshare agreement with Brussels Airlines. In addition to these route suspensions the seasonal services from Heathrow to Palma and Venice will not be reinstated in summer 2010.
This will mean in 2010 a total of nine mainline aircraft are surplus to requirements compared to 2009. This includes two of the five Embraers operating on mainline routes that will be returned to bmi regional. Leases will not be extended on aircraft when they expire in the first half of 2010, including two of the three long haul Airbus A330 aircraft. We will therefore continue to serve mid haul markets with two long-range aircraft and our fleet of A321

We expect to reduce our mainline capacity in 2010 by removing the nine aircraft from the fleet and suspending seven unprofitable routes. Regrettably this has an inevitable consequence on the number of staff required for the remaining business. We anticipate that in bmi mainline and bmi regional nearly 600 fewer full-time equivalent positions will be needed to support the reduced flying programme. Job reductions will affect all areas of the business. Additional job losses cannot be ruled out as we further restructure corporate overhead functions in line with a reduced flying programme and further communications will follow. There will be no room to carry surplus jobs in any part of the business

Figures of 79 captains and 50 F/O's coming out of LHR

[Mister Geezer]

Leases will not be extended on aircraft when they expire in the first half of 2010, including two of the three long haul Airbus A330 aircraft. We will therefore continue to serve mid haul markets with two long-range aircraft and our fleet of A321

bmi are not renewing the leases on two out of three 330s, yet reference is made to operating 'two long range aircraft'. :confused:

[barroon]

The two "long Range" aircraft referred to are the last remaining A330 and the Asteaeus 757.

[stormin norman]

'Additional job losses cannot be ruled out as we further restructure corporate overhead functions in line with a reduced flying programme and further communications will follow. There will be no room to carry surplus jobs in any part of the business'

Worse to come i fear ,some i hear have already received their notice.

[Captain Airclues]

I thought that Bmi had an agreement with BALPA that there would be no redundancies while the 757 wet lease was in operation. Is this correct, and if so, do Bmi intend to break this agreement?

Dave

[NutLoose]

But then it's not BMI anymore, it is Lufthansa

[fmgc]

Will Lufty be putting their aeroplanes into LHR to fill the vacant slots?

[jet.man123]

The ACMI work will stop Jan/Feb but that won't effect the numbers of crews. Luft were bound to make cuts, the company has been making huge losses on some routes and only retained them for strategic reasons. What abou the pay to fly schemes? SSTR. surely they will stop now

[acbus1]

I thought that Bmi had an agreement with BALPA that there would be no redundancies while the 757 wet lease was in operation. Is this correct, and if so, do Bmi intend to break this agreement?

The words bmi, BALPA and agreement seem to change before my eyes into lying sheisters, apathetic incompetents and broken promises.

Must come from observing previous history.

You should try it.

[Looker]

Unfortunately this is what happens when the naive wanders into the snake oil saleman's tent.

Still - only another few days before the purveyor of snake oil departs leaving a unique legacy of corporate muddled thinking and rock bottom morale. I doubt whether his severance package will be as paltry as the one offered to those made redundant.

At least we won't have to look at a picture of the grinning moron in our in house magazine any more.

[acbus1]

I shudder to think what he uses snake oil for.

[Mister Geezer]

the snake oil saleman's tent

Is that one of the attractions for the kids?

[bluelearjetdriver]

Just to clarify any rumours, the 757 will become a dry lease to be operated by Bmi crews, but the big sticking point will be the Jungle Jets operating for Mainline out of LHR. What a mess....

[Bruce Wayne]

the 757 will become a dry lease to be operated by Bmi crews,


Say again ?

[bluelearjetdriver]

the 757 will become a dry lease to be operated by bmi crews

[shaun ryder]

A sticking point as far as mainline crews are concerned yes. I will show my behind on the town hall steps if they ever end up flying them though.

[The Real Slim Shady]

the 757 will become a dry lease to be operated by bmi crews

Cabin crew maybe as company reps but not pilots.

[one day soon]

The agreement has already been made, the only sticking point was how many which has now also been agreed at 14 pilots

[The Real Slim Shady]

You cannot be serious!

ACMI crews while mainline crews are made redundant?

[Bruce Wayne]

glad someone else picked up on that slim.. my "say again" comment was perhaps a bit oblique !

[one day soon]

Very serious!
To explain, I gather that Balpa had an issue with the 757 flying mainline routes if mainline pilots were let go, so the solution was for the BMI board to approach Astraeus with the offer to extend the contract beyond March if they were to use BMI pilots to fly it.
Unfortunately not much use to us guys who are bound to be laid off in six months :ouch:

[fade to grey]

I understand the issue here, but would bmi really spend twenty odd grand on each pilot's TR for a max of one year extension.

This might have a negative effect on us astraeus mates if true, but i don't suppose anyone on here gives a ...

[K.Whyjelly]

I understand the issue here, but would bmi really spend twenty odd grand on each pilot's TR for a max of one year extension

From the latest Q & A
Q Has there been any mention of the impact the 757 lease has on our operation / redundancies – Is it still flying for us? If so how does this effect the situation?

A. The 757 contract will be renewed for a further year. Airbus narrow body aircraft do not have the range necessary to operate some essential services non-stop. Agreement has been reached with Astraeus for 14 bmi pilots to fly their aircraft so mitigating the effect on pilot jobs in bmi.


Q How are we going to select which pilots go on the 757?

A. This will be a secondment so we will seek volunteers after discussions with BALPA.

Q The pilots who applied to go on the 757 last time, do they need to re-apply.

A. There will be no requirement for a further interview with Astraeus, but they will need to register their interest with J H or B B.

[Bamboid]

As Fade To Grey has alluded, BALPA saving 14 jobs at BMI LHR presumably just means that 14 jobs are lost at Astraeus LGW.

Same P45, just a different uniform.

[Mister Geezer]

I understand the issue here, but would bmi really spend twenty odd grand on each pilot's TR for a max of one year extension.

Those 330 leases were obviously very expensive!

[stormin norman]

You couldn't make it up.

[pilotsama330]

I'm really surprised that everyone is concentrating on the Astreaus contract, which appears to have been worked out reasonably amicable whilst everyone is glossing over the fact that bmi have made NO MENTION of removing the Pay As You Go cadets.

At any time 8+ cadets on this reprehensible scheme are going to be flying as a First Officer for bmi until they reach 150 hours, some 2-3 months later!!! Meanwhile Company First Officers are at home twiddling their thumbs on standby whilst these cadets take their hours and jobs.

bmi are talking about 129 redundancies yet these cadets will still be there after the bmi staff have been shown the door. This means that 8+jobs could have been saved but instead it appears the company are more interested in protecting the training captains from demotion to line captains, which is not suprising as 90% of bmi pilot managers are also training captains.

The whole scheme is disgusting, bmi are willing to let 8 pilots lose their jobs so they can continue to train and then charge these cadets £40'000 for the privilege of joinging the dole queue with people with 2000 more hours on type.

Surely from a moral if not legal standpoint bmi has to do everything in it's power to mitigate redundancies, surely this is exactly the opposite on every conceivable level?

Surely this scheme should have been finished the day the redundancies were announced???

[skip.rat]

Ref: PAYG cadets-

The whole scheme is disgusting, bmi are willing to let 8 pilots lose their jobs so they can continue to train and then charge these cadets £40'000 for the privilege of joinging the dole queue with people with 2000 more hours on type.

-Not true;
The morality of these guys being here (and I have to say their sanity) is questionable, but given that it has been acknowledged that the revenue generated keeps the excess trainers training, it is preferable from the airline's point of view to maintain the currency of this valuable resource in the event of a future upturn. As for the guys 'displaced' from their flights they can, if they want to, come along for the ride and claim: a) the flight pay, and b)the hours as 'other flying'. The company has indicated that if anyone in the 'drop zone' is getting close to an hours target for eligibility, or ATPL unfreezing, then they will endeavour to roster these guys' hours to the max.

The bottom line is that no-one will lose their job as a result of these cadets, and if their presence is affecting hours, etc. then the aim is to minimize that effect.

From a personal point of view, given that the daily expenses probably wouldn't cover the cost of petrol, etc; and I'm not chasing hours,- I am more than happy to spend an extra day with my family on the few occasions where I'm given a day off in lieu of these cadets.

-But, for clarity; once again, I question the morality of such schemes, and also the wisdom of the cadets in the current climate, given that they will probably be joining the dole queue with people with 2000 more hours on type:hmm::hmm::hmm::ugh:............ultimately, who'd get the next job???????.......

S.R.

[stansdead]

Why would anyone be worried about jobs being lost at AEU?

As your lovely colleague RAINBOE has pointed out on the Aer Lingus thread, this is all about MARKET FORCES.......

.....AEU were happy to see Aer Lingus Pilots laid off, so I can't really see many people shedding a tear for what many see as a parasitic union busting airline.

Perhaps Rainboe will be one of the 14?

Anyway, what goes around comes around........

(Just had a thought. Perhaps the benevolent AEU management will type you all on these 320's that are being used to destroy other pilots' careers? Naah. Thought not. The taxi driving Spivs are only interested in one thing. THEMSELVES.)

[pilotsama330]

but given that it has been acknowledged that the revenue generated keeps the excess trainers training, it is preferable from the airline's point of view to maintain the currency of this valuable resource in the event of a future upturn.


we should tell the truth
bmi have always been top heavy with trainers, even when the airline didn’t run a command course for over 7 years the training department flourished. Right now at current numbers they have too many trainers, yet they are reducing the flight deck population by over a quarter and surprise, surprise the trainers find a way to protect themselves during this time.

Let’s not paint this cadet scheme as anything other than what it is – a jobs for the boys training ticket protection scheme!!!

From a personal point of view, given that the daily expenses probably wouldn't cover the cost of petrol, etc; and I'm not chasing hours,- I am more than happy to spend an extra day with my family on the few occasions where I'm given a day off in lieu of these cadets.


Then I can only assume you will be one of the first to volunteer for redundancy, think of how much petrol money you will save then.

I'm sure the 8 redundant pilots who could have kept their jobs had this scheme be thrown out will have bigger things to worry about than petrol money.

[SW1]

As far as I am aware, there are 3 ATP cadets at BMI. They will be finished in January. As a previous poster has pointed out, the existing FOs get the priority in terms of hours.

In terms of the dole, why am I getting email after email saying Etihad will be coming to conduct interviews and other jobs for Rishworth in the desert or Vietnam.

Seems these job cuts are inevitable as route after route is culled this coming year.

[Honest Fr@nk]

Stansdead-

Dont tarnish the pilot workforce at AEU with the same brush as the management. That seems to be what you are saying. That is rather shortsighted I'd say.

[skip.rat]

pilotsama330-

Let’s not paint this cadet scheme as anything other than what it is – a jobs for the boys training ticket protection scheme!!!


Sorry, but that's a load of b*ll*cks. If the PAYG cadets stop coming, it has been stated at the roadshows that the likelihood is that the training tickets will be pulled for those over & above the required. I was merely stating that if the revenue coming in was paying to keep the trainers with their 'ticket', the only downside will be the hours accrued by those taken off their sectors. (and that crewing will endeavour to put as many hours as poss towards those guys).


Then I can only assume you will be one of the first to volunteer for redundancy, think of how much petrol money you will save then.

I'm sure the 8 redundant pilots who could have kept their jobs had this scheme be thrown out will have bigger things to worry about than petrol money.

Firstly,- er,- no I won't - why should I? - anyone who needs the hours or expenses is more than welcome to take my place on the jumpseat.

I see, then - so you're saying that if you were rostered a day off in lieu of these cadets (which you could use to spend with your family, for example) - you would travel to work and either sit on the jumpseat of an aeroplane to earn a tenner in expenses, or sit around the crew room & the terminal for said period of time (where a few cups of coffee & a sarnie will easily cost you a tenner) - and travel back home again having spent a similar amount on petrol!??

I note that you keep banging on about 8 jobs going as a result of the PAYG cadets.
The existence of these guys makes diddly-squat difference to the numbers at the end of the day.
- in an ideal world they shouldn't be there, I have said so before, but with respect, I really don't see your problem with these guys.

The real problem is the fact that there are EMBs flying mainline routes out of LHR in contravention of the scope agreement; this alone is gonna cost 30 jobs if it is not resolved. - rather makes all of the grief above seem like a p*ss in the ocean, doesn't it?

S.R.

[Deep and fast]

SW1 In terms of the dole, why am I getting email after email saying Etihad will be coming to conduct interviews and other jobs for Rishworth in the desert or Vietnam.At least you guys with Airbus ratings have some options! The Embraer guys are just :mad: with no other 145 opportunities.

D and F :8

[stansdead]

Honest Frank,

Let's make this totally straight. I don't have any sympathy for AEU losing work, when that work rightfully and legally belongs to others.

You lose the 757 work? Well, it was a legally agreed deal between BMI and it's pilots that AEU were only filling a gap. ACMI work is notoriously fickle.

Aer Lingus? Well, it seems 100 Irish Pilots were sitting at home awaiting redundancy as AEU/AL did the dirty.

You have loudmouths like Rainboe spouting joyfully about MARKET FORCES and gleefully telling all and sundry that this is the way forward.

Well, now the Chickens are coming home to roost for some, and I personally hope that those who have crowed about MARKET FORCES and how lucky people are to be able to apply for their own jobs.....etc etc etc.... well, let's just say I am looking forward to seeing some medecine being doled out.

Short sighted? No, not me. I'm a forward thinking bloke who knows all too well that if any AEU pilots are laid off they'll find new jobs. Of course, they'll be MARKET FORCES pay rate jobs, but Rainboe should be able to advise you.........:yuk::yuk::yuk:

[fade to grey]

Stansdead,

"why would anyone be worried about jobs being lost at aeu?"

Well firstly anyone with a shred of common human decency: Personally I am concerned when any pilot loses their job as I have been through it and it is not a pleasant time, more selfishly it always limits the options in the industry in general.Anyway there is no indication this will occur as we always have new stuff ticking over thanks.

Your issue seems to be with 'rainboe' so i suggest you confine your vitriol to your argument with him.

[stansdead]

It's amazing how quickly the wheel turns isn't it?

Only a few weeks ago the deal was AEU taking work from other Pilots in AL Mainline in an attempted Union Bust.

Now, it's Midland Pilots standing up for their rights and flying their own rightful work.

Bravo!! I applaud them.

If you work on the margins for an AEU (ACMI) type operator and offer your services to all and sundry, this is always going to happen.

Rainboe (with his fat pension - already discussed) and that nice Heavy Metal type chappie will of course stand down to protect their colleagues. So, the number should be a maximum of 12............

What sticks in my throat is that AEU guys didn't bat an eyelid when the Union Bust was being introduced.... in fact, there was a distinct I'm alright Jack attitude. But now, less than a month on, we're meant to be gnashing our teeth in angst at Midland Pilots taking back what is their legally recognised flying.

Pot. Kettle.

[carbheatout]

What sticks in my throat is that AEU guys didn't bat an eyelid when the Union Bust was being introduced

How do you know that Stansdead?

The pilots will keep their heads down and get on with the job. The management will do whatever is neccesary to keep the company ticking over.

[stansdead]

We know it, because you didn't do anything to avoid it.

Simple. Union Busting antics don't get any sympathy from me.

The facts are that the Midland guys are flying their routes on your aircraft for a sensible, professional pay rate. i.e. their own published payscales, not some knock down opportunistic cheapo rate dreamt up by a Spiv in Astraeus' broom cupboard office.

Good news!!:ok:

I, for one, am well pleased.

[carbheatout]

What do you want the AEU pilots to do? Go on strike because the they don't like the aggressive business tactics of its management? Dream on....

The facts are that the Midland guys are flying their routes on your aircraft for a sensible, professional pay rate. i.e. their own published payscales, not some knock down opportunistic cheapo rate dreamt up by a Spiv in Astraeus' broom cupboard office.


Wouldn't you just LOVE to be a part of that. After all it appears your current package is on par with AEU FO's.

Come on Stan. Give the guys a break. Its the season of goodwill after all.

[stansdead]

I don't think AEU FO's are earning anywhere near what I earn each month.

You can dream it if you like, but I think you will find that AEU FO's are earning about 4000 quid a month. Before Tax.

I earn a lot more than that - so long as I fly regularly - which I do. So, I don't think your Maths is quite straight.

Anyway, this isn't about my pay, or my company. AEU, BD and AL for that matter have no links with my employer (thankfully).

This is about looking for sympathy when absolutely none was forthcoming in the other direction only one month ago.

Don't get me wrong, I wish there were jobs for all of us. But there isn't. If jobs must be lost, I'd rather they went from operators who have undercut and undermined other people's livelihoods.

And yes, I'm aware that I work for a lowcost airline who is trying the same thing. If my employer were to go under and that benefited everyone in the industry, then that may be a price worth paying. After all, I would find another job eventually, and hopefully that job would be worth having.......

But, please remember that you can't have it both ways. Charter has always been fickle, and AEU work in the most fickle end of it. You win, you lose.

So, to insinuate that I am not brimming with Goodwill to all men is correct. After all, the goodwill wasn't flowing the other way only recently.

[GA Button]

Miserable git Stan :)

[stansdead]

GAB,

Yes my old fruit.:)

[Honest Fr@nk]

Stansdead- Did AEU turn you down at some point in your illustrious career.

I wish I was you.

[GA Button]

Be careful what you wish for mate - Stans very ugly ;)

[sjm]

I think the AEU issue is more about protecting the route the 757 is used AEU did the africa stuff before as an airline and did well by all accounts, if bmi drop them they will just start up under a new name running the routes against BMI and making it pay a lot more than BMI.

Its about protecting those lucrative routes the 757 operates on on AEU and BMI dont give a toss who gets made redundant BMI pilots or AEU pilots, time will tell if it even happens.

Just how many BMI FO.s were given commands or right seats on the 757 last time this deal was offered?

[skip.rat]

No malice intended, Duir - just telling it the way it is. The rights and wrongs leading up to the present situation won't help; mainline pilots were very much against the introduction of the 145s to LHR;- "thin end of the wedge" comes to mind. More 145s followed 'at weekends only' while the A320s were off making money on charters, all very sensible but still that nagging doubt that something wasn't right, and all against the backdrop that most of these operations were outside the scope agreement.
Maybe the mainline pilots should have put their foot down and demanded the proper implementation of the scope agreement there and then. This may well have threatened Regional jobs. Trouble is, we could see that there was a degree of merit in the 'temporary' use of the 145s.
The bottom line is that the slots are Mainline slots, and the operation falls foul of the scope agreement; i.e. "aircraft flown into LHR are to be flown by Mainline pilots" (excluding those subject to an agreed alleviation).
Maybe if an agreement had been thrashed out years ago between Mainline & Regional there would be an agreed mechanism for sorting this mess out. Maybe if marketing had done a better job of selling some of the routes that the 145 is operating, maybe if a bit more effort was made to open up (and not pull off) routes into new destinations, maybe if the old man hadn't bled this airline dry over the last 10 years. - maybe................:yuk::yuk:

All of this is typical of the approach that bmi have taken over the years; everything seems to have been concieved on the back of a fag packet without wanting to commit any more than absolute minimum resource; now that we have proper management in place (I hope);- we are all paying the price of the "Rodney & Del Boy" legacy that has been left behind.

Good Luck.

S.R.

[fade to grey]

Now come on stan,
surely you r'e not that thick to think any
pilot would stick their neck out for any
reason in this financial envoronment?

I have no malice towards lingus,midland
or any other pilot group I was merely indicating
that good news for some may not be for others.
I don't want or need sympathy - if the aircraft
stays with bmi that is a financial result
whether it be wet or dry leased.

I hope when your low cost airline (whichever one)
tells you you have to bring a bottle to p@ss in because
using the toilet is too costly you are first on
the picket line with your militant views, right
brother ?I thought not .

Equally I don't like your condescending
tone towards aeu.At least I get to fly business
class passengers who have not had to punch
each other to get a seat unlike your lot .

[The Real Slim Shady]

mainline pilots were very much against the introduction of the 145s to LHR

And whilst other threads, and posters ( notably NSF ), promote the "benefits" of being a BALPA member, where exactly was the union when this was slipped in ?

[RoyHudd]

Guilty as sin, often being let off the hook by former employees. Fully able in is his remaining years to support his family, his friends, and those young lads' associations he so loves, and still repay the blood money he took from his trusting employees. (9/11 too, not just 09)

No affection for the "old man" from this quarter. A thieving and lonely curmudgeon more like. Worthy of greater criticism than MOL, IMHO.

Never liked his sort either. Untrustworthy types.

[Mister Geezer]

Never liked his sort either. Untrustworthy types.

Ah.... untrustworthy. I thought you were going to mention something else! :}

[pilotsama330]

Why can't we learn from our mistakes !!!

I have been reading with interest the multiple posts on here and the balpa website regarding 'too little too late' with regards to the Embraers at LHR I am shocked that no-one can draw a parallel to the cadets schemes being snuck in the back door by a greedy training department determined to protect themselves.

After the redundancies have been made the company will be operating at the ‘optimum’ level they forecasted which begs the following questions are asked:

1) Does anyone seriously believe the people who made that forecast are capable of assessing it accurately?!?!? We arguably have one of the worst rostering departments in the business.
2) Can no-one see that the continued use of these cadets allows crewing to ‘flex-up’ and ensure that all flights are staffed without the burden of having to re-employ redundant staff. A positive benefit for the company I’m sure the training department will take credit for.
3) Once the redundancies have taken place, if the company indeed turns out to need pilots they don’t need to re-employ anyone as these cadets can be utilised to fill the shortfall. Who will be watching then? Who will be looking out for the interests of the redundant FO’s? Simply put no-one will be.

I don’t subscribe to the naïve attitude that the cadet’s presence doesn’t pose either a threat or a negative, they do both to the current bmi employees and to the cadets themselves (who are victims too and spending vast sums of money to be in such a position). Not to mention it’s obviously bad for everyone flooding the worldwide airbus pilot pool, when we already have a surplus – particularly in the UK.

I truly feel that to allow a ‘Pay To Fly’ scheme to continue when you’re laying off pilots is morally and legally reprehensible. We are turning a blind eye to what could be an industry precedent and another erosion to our already deteriorated status and the perceived value of our profession.

[sweetie76]

Maybe the mainline pilots should have put their foot down and demanded the proper implementation of the scope agreement there and then


Here endeth the lesson.

[BigX]

Muppet, your last post suggests you don't have the faintest idea what you are talking about. Clear off back to Spotters' Corner.