Friday Night Retention Schemes

[Norfolk Boy]

Just heard from down south that the long-term retention proposals are making the rounds at this very moment. Announcement to the press has to be by Nov 01. Options include:
a. Complete restructuring of Spec Aircrew terms and conditions ie not based on flying pay.
b. Restructuring the whole aircrew terms and conditions (but essentially more pay).
c. And, wait for it....pensionable flying pay is seriously back on the agenda and heavily backed by the top brass.
d. Continue with the sort of retention initiative and hope it all works out in the end (ie we don't have operate beyond our current [limited]capabilities.

Personally, I rather suspect that all the 30-34 year-old cream of our fighting capability have made the decision to leave already. It would require a substantial and immediately tangible change of attitude from above to sway any waverers out there.

Ultimately though, this is a bl**dy good, well paid job and I know its comparing apples with pears but come on, what about the nurses.

Any of you nine (plus hiddens - why?) know anything more? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Oggin Aviator]

Try "give the chaps their gratuity at age 38 but let them stay in till normal RA" is one I've recently heard. Would this work ? - dont know personally but the cash would be nice. Pay off the mortgage, buy something for the wife etc etc.
Also heard they were thinking of scrapping Flying Pay altogether whilst implementing a large pay rise which is all pensionable.
Now that would be nice and may stem the flow to the place where the grass is apparently greener ....
Anyway, shall await news and will digest the signal in my nice air conditioned ship whilst enjoying a cool beer post flying on SSII!!

[ 03 August 2001: Message edited by: Oggin Aviator ]

[slim boy fat]

Don`t know more really, but I did go to one of the pay revue body meetings that did the rounds recently. All squadron mates at my base that went had the same gripe over the pension arguement and said it was a major retention issue.

The board agreed, adding that this was a 100% air force wide concencus amongst aircrew, so your news about this doesn`t surprise me.

It`s nice to see the big cheeses are taking note over this, at least.

How do you hide anyway?

[ 03 August 2001: Message edited by: slim boy fat ]

[Oggin Aviator]

I think you just log out.

[Norfolk Boy]

Oh, and I forgot to say that about twenty of our nav brethren have signed up to the extra 6 months to 6 years of the transistion package and two have been assimilated. Does 'assimilated' [to absorb into the body or into the group or system, to become absorbed into something (Oxford Dic)] sound vaguely like 'Bodysnatchers'.

I digress. I'm all for more money, I mean who isn't, but I would prefer to fly reasonably serviceable (with software that works) aircraft and train to fight. That's what I joined up for. Not political obliqueness and pretence that we are a world player.

All I ask is that you retain me (not that I'm much good but considering what's, left I can become the veritable eagle soaring above turkeys, and who wants that!!).

[Roundtuit]

Assimilate is what the Borg do to you to force you to join their collective, I think.

[only1leftmate!]

And how should we bring our aircraft to a 'reasonably serviceable condition' oh Lord?

[Jambo Jet]

They cannot abolish flying pay and replace it with a higher taxable income instead. How would they dock your wages if you PVR'd then ? :eek:

[Ex F111]

They will ban PVRs

[Max Brakin]

I seem to remember a thread starting like this, at about the same time last year.... something to do with a wad of cash to stay in. Everyone agreed it was a good scheme then reality hit this year and lo and behold very few actually qualified.

I hope that Norfolk Boy's info is good and will wait with rapt attention to see what happens. :eek: :eek:

------------------------------

Edited for lack of ability

[ 06 August 2001: Message edited by: Max Brakin ]

[tu chan go]

Sounds like a good scheme!

Only1leftmate - You bring the aircraft to a reasonably serviceable state by totally revamping the completely useless spares backup and supply (sic) system. We had a jet here unserviceable for a few days. The part had to (HAD TO) come from somewhere in England (not the jet's home base) and it HAD TO be delivered via the recognised carrier. It took so long to get here, the aircrew could have driven home to northern Scotland, had a meal and a good night's sleep in their own beds, collected the part and still arrived back before the "recognised carrier" had fulfilled its contract.

ExF11 & Jambo Jet - I suspect that "they" will punish PVRs by putting the guilty ungratefuls back to a lower pay scale (like Acting Pilot Officer!!).

I also attended a "roadshow" about retention a while back. We were asked "What can the RAF do to retain aircrew?"

The answer was given "The very fact that you are still asking us the same question after 10 years is indicative of the fact that you are STILL not listening to the shop floor! Make the Airforce life more attractive than the outside world!!"

[Jemima Puddleduck]

Guys a really interesting thread and one fully in tune with how the AAC feels too. I sat on a Pay Review board last year and one of the main issues raised was the pension issue. However an issue that seemed to escape their attention was the fact that in the army the bulk of all those leaving are in the 28 - 35 yr old bracket and therefore have not reached their IPP. The army basically is in a lose - lose situation with retention bonuses: vis a vie that if you are going to leave you are likely not to qulaify for the bonus and if you have reached the grand old 16 yr point and do qualify for the bonus you had pretty much made up your mind to stay anyway.

So as far as retention goes I wouldn't be surprised if this years incentives have not had a greater detremental effect on those who are in the 28 - 35 yr old bracket and who were in the cusp of the "should I, shouln't I go" decisions - you can bet your bottom dollar that the majority thought "well if I stay there's nothing in it for me anyhow, so I might as well poke off now."

Cynical I know - but reality is far worse than the glasgow & london men tell us. Not only do we not have any aircraft to fly - soon we will have no one to fly what we do have!

Of course there is then the issue of whether retention measures should be Tri-service or should be service orientated to cater for differing service problems....anyone like to comment...?

regards JP

[ 06 August 2001: Message edited by: Jemima Puddleduck ]

[Dr Schlong]

Any news on whether the grand old non-rank of Acting Pilot Officer is going down the tube? (Acting from what exactly) And also, are we (the RAF) going to start awarding seniority based on age/experience rather than whether you have a 3rd in Town Planning or some other worthwhile degree? :eek:

[Hengist Pod]

Good point Dr S. Airman aircrew don't get seniority if they join up with a degree (and rightly so.) With that being the case, why the bloody hell should the tools churned out of Sleaford Tech get their Flt Lt early? (Present company excepted Doc)

[cyclic]

Very true, you don't see many Fg Offs let alone Plt Offs. As per the PC doctrine everyone must be the same.

Of course, a degree automatically gives you service knowledge and the right to more pay!

Signed

A. Wooden Top

[Ex F111]

I've just transferred from one Air Force to Another, while retaining rank; Even got Spec Aircrew. I consider that my contract is the equivalent to a Permanent Pilot Officer - After all, who will listen to someone with a funny accent??

Edited: When will this get a spell checker!!

[ 07 August 2001: Message edited by: Ex F111 ]

[Dr Schlong]

My stories a sad one; go to uni to do a degree and get convinced by the careers office to jack it in, "We'll give you some seniority based on the 2 years uni you've done"
Why can't we round up and shoot these blunties who spread fallacies? I'll track him down don't worry! :mad:


(That was in no way a direct or indirect threat to the worthless life of the individual concerned and I'll deny everything in court!) ;)

[Hengist Pod]

Dr S.

I apologise for siding with you before. If I'd done my research correctly and realised you were still in training I wouldn't have pi55ed on you if you were on fire. Furthermore, are we expected to believe that you jacked in your degree voluntarily. I've heard some bull5hit in my time, but! I suppose when you get chopped from pilot training it'll be because some second-rate employer in civvy street convinced you to "withdraw" from training.

In a few years time you'll have the right to be bitter, twisted and slag off blunties. Until then just wind your neck in.

[Jackonicko]

Isn't the reason for seniority for grads to ensure that the otherwise culturally barren crew-rooms are leavened with a few witty, charming, erudite chaps, and to reward them for all their sacrifices going through the hell of Uni?

Oh alright then, I appear to be talking bollocks again!

PS: Received this jolly fine spoof on the old computer:

"Your computer has just received an Irish virus.

Please delete all the files on your hard disk yourself and send this
message to everyone you know.

That'd be grand

Mind how you go now"

[Dr Schlong]

Blimey H P, sorry you think I'm spinning a yarn but I'm just airing a grievance I have. You'll hear no more of the matter and consider the neck to be fully wound in! Exactly how long does it take before one gets properly bitter and twisted? :confused:

[TheWelshOne]

Of course a degree entitles you to more pay...not really

Graduates do not get any more pay than non-graduates. Yes, you get to Flt Lt earlier, but having done 3-4 years in Uni then there has to be some incentives. Graduates would not be recruited at all if the package was'nt right.

Moreover, a fair few coming out of Sleaford Tech have been ex-airmen/women; half their time in rank counts towards getting their Flt Lt - Would you say they had 'Service Experience' and therefore qualify?

[cyclic]

Yep, I would say that was service experience. When the RAF was twice the size it is now you could become part of the two winged master race with 5 O-Levels - how did we manage without everyone being a graduate? I suppose most of those guys were just happy to fly.....

[Perky Penguin]

Even longer ago you get into pilot training with 2 'O' levels and Advanced Proficiencey from the ATC/CCF. I know some got in that way and did very well, with out any degree at all, except a degree of application and persistence!

[lordG]

WelshOne, you are correct that graduates do not get any more pay than non-graduates but achieve Flt Lt earlier. However, non-graduates have to eke out up to 6 years of their early RAF careers on pitiful APO/Plt Off/Fg Off wages, all the while watching their degree endowed colleagues spend money like its going out of fashion.

Not for me though, I've got qualifications up the ying yang and accordingly received 30 months seniority upon joining. Ha ha!

The system is a bit crap though, disregarding impressionable school leavers, the pay scales do not work to entice non-graduates to join the RAF, who may have a number of years post-6th form work experience. Surely the RAF could reward such people with higher pay upon joining in recognition of the fact that they will probably take a drop in salary to join in the first place. APO Annual rate is £16,654, hardly enough to cover the cost of living for someone in their early to mid twenties with, perhaps, spouses, kids or a mortgage.

While we are on the issue of wages/retention I've had an idea. Instead of waiting till the 38/16 point before trying to retain officers, why not get Junior Officers in their twenties to sign up for a few more years extra service in return for a couple of grand extra a year for the remainder of their (extended) service. Should be able to sign up bucketloads, just think, you could get all those skint APOs for a start and all the Pilot & Flying officers trying to save up for a 3.0 litre v6 24v chick magnet.

[D-IFF_ident]

One of my holding posts (of which there were many - and totalling 3 and 1/2 years) was keeping track of the other holding u/t pilots of 3FTS. Other than try to make contact with them occasionally and finding ways of getting their flying pay started I had to provide various statistics to the highly paid help. One such 'interesting' set of statistics included comparing graduates against non-graduates in the flying training system. The 'interesting' part is that a higher percentage of Fg Trg students without degrees were graduating Fast Jet Trg compared to those with degrees.

So it could be argued that the RAF would be wise to invest in the younger folk who haven't just spent 3-4 years soaking their brains in guinness, their stomachs in curry and their lungs in tar. Of course 85% of statistics are only 70% true on 30% of occasions, and I was a direct entrant at 21.