Wings from a foreign country?

[Prop-Ed]

Some of you may remember that the Tucano was grounded for some time back in 1999.15 BFJT students were sent to Australia to avoid a backlog while the problem was fixed.. .. . They are all back now and I have been in contact with a number of them. It transpires that only 7 out of 14 RAF students graduated, (a number unheard of for a Linton course that size.) and that some have been told they are not going to Valley as the Australian course the RAF sent them on hasn’t prepared them well enough for the Hawk. Surely these lads have upheld their end of the bargain and the RAF is re-streaming them when they have done every thing asked of them.. .. .It is tough to know what advice I can give them. I have heard rumours of other students trained in foreign countries having difficulties in the past upon their return to the UK. If anyone has stories or outcomes of any such cases I would be most grateful if they might share them to give the boys an idea of their options.

[Ali Barber]

It was a while back, but the old Nato FTS (at Shepherd AFB I think) gave us similar problems. We got pilots who were great at IF but had never seen bad weather, and had done a lot of procedural work and close formation, but not much VFR work. There has to be justification for at least a UK aquaintance course because these guys would know instinctively where to divert to if they were in Oz, but where the hell is Wittering, Leeming, etc. The RAF could use the aquaint course to brush up on anything that was missed out/different in the way Aussies and Brits teach their pilots, but having worked with a couple of Aussie exchange pilots, I thought we were very similar in training procedures and outlook. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[BEagle]

Sorry to hear this tale of woe. I hope that these chaps get a decent result after having been sent thousands of miles away to overcome the inadequacy of RAF Tucano training.. .. .How will things improve under MFTS, I wonder?

[Jeep]

Beagle, that depends on how much they pay instructors. WYPIWYG = What you pay is what you get.

[Cougar]

I believe most of the RAF/RN guys who went through RAAF training went to Church Fenton (??) for a Tucano conversion to get used to UK airspace etc before going onto Valley. About two months long i believe.

[Prop-Ed]

The guys returning from OZ were given a 10 hour orientation course at Linton, regardless of how long it was since their last trip on PC9 (In the region of 5/6 months for most of them). A Linton graduate on the ground for this length time would be given 20 hours minimum to get them ready for valley. . .. .Go figure.

[Big Green Arrow]

Prop Ed. .. .There's more to this than meets the eye..and probably not that sinister either. The Guys would have been boarded; if they weren't up to scratch why waste expensive hours at Valley on them? There may well have only been enough seats for 7 bums at Valley, or Gp2/3 could have been short of 7 bums to fill 7 seats...you never know, and sometimes it's purely a numbers game. Sorry.

[Art Field]

Going way back to the Nato courses in Canada in the 50's, after returning to UK with wings awarded, guys did some sort of UK course either at Valley or Strubby. Certainly IF and handling involving rather more adventurous aerobatics. Lasted about 6 weeks if I remember right.

[Flatus Veteranus]

At Middleton in the '50s we did UK acclimatisation courses for guys who had been trained in Canada, before sending them on to the OCUs at Strad and Leeming. This was to get them used to life without an ADF, without much fuel, in lousy weather and where the roads did not all run N/S or E/W.

[Fast & Furious]

As the rumour mill that is the Royal Air Farce goes about its daily Chinese whisper I too have caught wind of this case... thru a friend of a friend of a friend... as usual!! From what I can gather it seems that these boys have been given a rough deal all round.

I remember reading the 'horror' stories and hearing the rumours about the course in Oz (although they did have the sun and beach!) and it seemed that the whole setup for the exchange was rushed due to the grounding of the Tucano and not particularly well researched or briefed. I've heard that the Aussies were not particularly prepared for their colonial counterparts and the course reflected that. Perhaps it did not specifically prepare them for Valley, although surely it must have if it was harder then the Linton course as the chop rate would suggest.

It seems that perhaps the same has happened on their return and that the system is not really aware of their situation and subsequently has not provided adequately for their reintegration into the British system... all speculation of course!

At the time they went out I don't think there were many people who didn't know about it, and most, if not all, were quite envious (including me!!). With hindsight I don't envy those boys at all and I don't think those who went through Linton would have been queueing up to go if they had been pre-briefed of a chop rate of greater than 50% and told that even if they did grad they were not guaranteed to go to Valley!!

Anyway I wish them all the best as I wouldn't want to swap places with them right now... all I can say is dig in and work hard fellas!!

[Booger]

Methinks this is a prime example of relativity... From what little I know the RAAF was not asked to prepare the RAF lads for 'RAF FJ training', but rather to put the guys (& girls?) through standard RAAF PC9 ab initio training. That is, I don't think a specific UK airspace training was high on the priorities - merely the standard skills required of a Mil (& therefore potential FJ student) pilot.

Rumour was the results weren't spectacular, and given that there is at least one (possibly more on this occasion) RAF exchange instructor present, there must have been some RAF perspective on student progression throughout the course... It does appear from previous posts that the RAF has since left the lads in the lurch once they returned home to ole Blighty - a tragic shame, as being an "experiment" in aircrew training has obviously put them at a disadvantage. No amount of sand, sun & surf could compensate them for that... although the chicks in Perth (with their angry t;tties & @rses like ten year old boys) would have gone some way to helping ease the pain!!!;)

[Prop-Ed]

I think you’re on the money Booger.

Thanks to everyone for responding. Sorry boys, unfortunately it looks like a case of wrong place at the wrong time.
“If you can’t take the RAF you shouldn’t have joined a joke”

Big green arrow-

I hope that “sorry” wasn’t for me. You should save it for the boys who have experienced the RAF’s people skills sooner than the rest of us.

[Avtrician]

Rumour has it that some of these chaps will be moving on to a faster life style in the near future :D

[Bri Uggin-Out]

Very dodgy ground for the RAF to be on it appears......

Basically the Innsworth crowd will not admit that they screwed up - nor would I chasing rank. It angers me that the Services think they have the ability to force peoples hands by pulling the 'you signed on do it and we'll send you anywhere' card. Thats a crock of .... in 'peacetime'. Please wake up and realise that its not the 1970s anymore, people will fight you.

My advice would be to take whatever you can get from them, you are still a pilot with wings. But do not let it go. Whatever they told would happen to you if you redressed, get it in writing. Paperwork will take as long as their particular job decrees.....maybe they'll have left by the time it goes thru. They won't let it affect their pension (or a chance of a higher one) or retention bonus. Then get the whole thing to a lawyer and see what can become - I'm not thirsty for money (i'd be an airline pilot then) but highlighting their errors can only serve to amend their ways of manipulation in the future.

If someone says its a numbers game then kick em in the nuts. That is cowardice.

Good luck fella. And be the best you can in the new speed range.

[Big Green Arrow]

Prop Ed...the sorry was meant as a 'Sorry' that these guys have been dealt a bum hand by the system. I am full agreement that they have been hard-done by, and as I said, the reasons aren't probably that 'sinister' either. The Training was hurriedly arranged and not that well thought out.....what's new. The people resonsible have more than likely moved on and out from Binnsworth and frankly don't give a monkeys anymore!

I hope that those responsible for the guys affected do right by them...but as I said, at the end of the day (it gets dark) and it is, unfortunately a numbers game for bums on ac seats that the hierarchy have most of the say in how it goes. Again....Sorry.

[Orange Whip]

Bri Uggin-Out. Although I'm sure it's well intended, take care with your advice. I am not in possession of the full facts of their case, and I can only assume that you aren't either. However, the course of action that you imply may not be for the best; after all, they have careers too - and they have a lot of career ahead of them.

[Fast & Furious]

Some interesting points being made and a lot of sympathy for the guys but sorry fellas, that won't change anything for you now.

It does seem you've been left in the lurch after being part of some rushed, ill thought out solution, that ironically is now turning out to be a problem. I've heard (unconfirmed though) that the Aussie counterparts who completed Valley and have returned to the land down under are struggling to re-adapt to the colonial ways and have had some poor marks. Furthermore, I've also heard that the Aussie bigwigs are considering sending subsequent Aus Valley graduates through the whole of their jet training system to bring them up to speed... can anyone either confirm or deny this? If this is the case it would appear that the Aussies did not consider the repercussions/problems of this experiment either. However, it would seem that at least they've had the b**lls to stand up and say this isn't working out and have come up with some kind of solution rather than sweep it under the carpet, let the guinea pigs take the fall and pretend that it never happened like our powers to be seem to have done.

It seems that the moral of the story is that if you become part of an RAF 'experiment' in the future... be afraid... be very afraid!

PS I tend to agree with Bri-Uggin Out... if someone really scr***ed you over then don't just take it, seek legal advice, the modern world is all about accountability!!

[Bri Uggin-Out]

Mr OJ whip....

Indeed wise words. My line was simply not to sit down and accept like many of us easily do - we are taught to question after all.

I accept the future career is a long one..potentially.. and a great deal of thought and advice should be taken to construct a professional and solid legal response. It depends on the gut instinct of individual concerned. Let sleeping does lie.....maybe.

I know the situation very well but not at a level beyond the junior ranks. Some senior input and advice would be much appreciated I'm sure....

Its a great shame and also a bit of a disgrace, given the past experiences over the years, that more fore-thought wasn't used. Knowledge doesn't appear to have been passed on very well...again.

[L J R]

....... believe me, the Aussies did consider lots when planning to send some of their 'bograts' to the RAF. Such a training predicament was considered long before the RAF Tucano problem surfaced as [at the time C1998 ] the life of the Macchi was in doubt when the Hawk -127 intro was not guaranteed.

Although you may hear rumours of success or otherise, management did consider possibilities and consequences, and re-aquainting Pilot Officers to the 'Colonial way' was seen as a major problem.

[Cap'n Bunghole]

F&F - I believe that the last 2 RAAF Boggies at Valley will be doing an "abridged" Hawk 127 conversion followed by the full Intro Fighter Course on said hawk.

Once again, unconfirmed, but i do know that they will be first touching down in Perth, home of the conversion squadron, before heading over east.

Not an ideal situation but at least it looks like they will be given every chance to get up to speed.

[Prop-Ed]

For the guys not off to Valley, the Air Force is re integrating them to UK military Ops by sending them to a civi’ school! Never mind fellas, at least you should be flying an RAF aircraft for you OCU!

Sounds like the Australians will be given a fair chance upon their return and flying RAAF aircraft. (take note RAF)

Best of luck to you boys.