Easy worse than Ryanair

[Boecapt]

Reading many of the forums on here I see lots of mention of terms and conditions and diminishing standards. However as an orange airline announces profits for the year I find it hard to believe the current flexi crew terms and conditions have failed to be mentioned in particular in comparison to the FR Brookfield contracts. As a soon to be retired Captain in another airline I was shocked to have chatted to a Flexi Crew FO to find out about the terms and conditions they are working to. I wonder how or why anybody would wish to join this industry and fear surely with airlines behaving this way only standards can drop. I can’t imagine any other industry requiring trained professionals able to treat them like this.

Although I believe all of the information to be correct and a have a very reliable source, I am more than open to be corrected on any of the points.

As I understand it, the FOs spent the summer working on a cadet training contracts taking home an allowance of £1000 a month in order to pay off the TR. Which seemed fair enough and competitive under the old scheme where the pilots who made the grade were then taken on full contracts. However the FOs are now only being offered flexi crew contracts. Being offered either a few days a month or months of no work with the potential of further at short notice.

While working, they are currently paid a daily rate, however are not entitled to any leave, work on a random roster, are not entitled to any sick pay, are not entitled to staff travel, pay for their own uniforms and have absolutely no job security, with contracts only being very short and for few days a month. Many of the FOs also seem to have had base changes at very short notice and seem to live in constant fear of being up rooted again at short notice. I also understand that next summer it is proposed the flexi crew pilots work on a 5-2-5-3 roster already rejected by BALPA for EZ pilots however being fatigue studied for the Flexi Crew pilots.

I understand a recent CTC update to the pilots suggested that EZY have no intentions of offering contracts anymore and are basically following the FR business plan of using contract pilots, but make the FR conditions look far more enticing. Is this not a method of employment BALPA is trying to fight in FR?

How do theses terms and conditions compare to the FR Brookfield contracts, my understanding is these CTC guys would be better off in FR?
Much of this concerns me and many of the issues were raised in the recent log article. However surely these conditions must infringe on safety with pilots turning up to work ill; due to being entitled to no sick leave and being in financial dire straits. I would also question the continuity of these pilots at such an early stage of their careers flying sporadically. The log article seemed to focus on the training organisations who surly can’t be to blame for this, but avoided focusing on the airline and management or the fact the union and fellow pilots are allowing this to happen. Think this really needs further discussion.

This all comes from an Airline claiming to be staff focused, being one of only a few to be in profit and boastings a strong BALPA membership. The day of the respected professional pilot must now be over and these contracts succeed to prove how toothless BALPA are and how useless BALPA representations would be in FR.

I wonder how the public would feel knowing how the professionals entrusted with their lives are being treated and think that maybe more publicity is required.

It would seem from my initial discussions the majority of EZY line pilots seem unaware of this, what do the EZY Captains think of having the guys in the seat next to them being treated so badly? I urge my fellow professionals to speak up and prevent terms and conditions deteriorating yet further particularly for those most vulnerable. To the FOs involved I hope that the industry picks up soon and you find an airline that appreciates you.

[ReallyAnnoyed]

Most pilots in the company know about this, but since they do not have en employment contract, BALPA says they can't/won't help them. You can do your own math as to whether or not they will join BALPA if they get employment in a good airline somewhere.

The current management are very envious of Pikey and do their utmost to emulate his designs. Google Roland Berger report and you will see where they're trying to take us. As for safety: That means nothing to them! They have done a cost/benefit analysis and come to the conclusion that it can be ignored a fair bit - all in the name of cost saving.

A showdown is about to happen. Either the greedy, soulless managers get fended off (not without receiving a large cash pile from the company) or the reality of an orange harp is here. Interesting times indeed.

[FrenchScotPilot]

Boecapt, I totally agree, it should be different, we shouldn't be treated this way ... but frankly I am very pessimistic as to how the situation is going to evolve, I don't see the trend reversing when things pick up. I see main airlines try and cut cost too and I fear that this is going to be the way from now on :(

FSP

[one post only!]

No kidding this needs discussing!!! I think more and more crew are starting to wake up to what is happening. Those that realise are trying to inform those that are disengaged and sleepwalking towards bus driver T&C's. Hopefully this can be done before it's too late. Somedays it scares me that I have 30 years left in this industry.

For the majority EZY is far better than RYR (Brookfield contract) but that is changing.....unless we stop it. For new FO's however......

It can only help if BALPA members from other airlines contact BALPA about this! We need all the help we can get from BALPA HQ. What happens in EZY over the next few months will have massive ramifications for the entire industry.

[FrenchScotPilot]

I very much hope some unity comes out of this ... it looks pretty bleek and frankly being a contractor pilot is not something I want !

FSP

[gyni]

It's a situation that I don't think we will see changing for at least a couple of years. People are STILL signing up to the CTC scheme and seemingly queueing up for the Ryanair TR. It has been clear to see for TWO years now the fragile state of this industry but still the lemmings are coming. Put yourself in the minds of easy management for a minute - cheap, flexible pilots who will seemingly take anything thrown at them in massive supply. I'm not saying I like it, far from it, but I don't think I would be doing anything different right now if I was easy management.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

There is an unstoppable Wannabe Zombie Army who are nourished (still) by the irrational bank of Mum&Dad who are in turn powered by unnatural house price inflation.

The view from my trench is that they appear limitless in number and impossible to stop. They will destroy the prize they fight for. They care not.


WWW

[autobrake3]

Yup, safety is now being severely eroded in the relentless greedy hunt for profits and bonuses. These cadets won't go sick or fatigued for fear of being sidelined for any future crumbs of work that the company may throw at them. After a summer of relentless work without leave they were knackered and in Lyon were simply left for the summer with zero management oversight. great for 200 hr pilots. Now discarded, hands washed by both the company and BALPA they are all unemployed with no continuity or consolidation. Single crew ops it seems will be common during the summer months.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

So what would you have them do, WWW? Lay down their career aspirations at the altar of your expectations of what junior FO T's & C's should be? Don't be absurd. Supply and demand is the unstoppable force you refer to, not the "zombie army" (how offensive, by the way!). All attempts to regulate that over the past three thousand odd years have ended in tears. You were a junior in this business once yourself, weren't you?

[Deep and fast]

I have little sympathy for those who sign up to these self funded rating jobs! It was a choice available to me, and I made the decision not to.

If you take the chequebook challenge and it doesn't pay off then you only have yourself to blame.

Pilots pay has taken a bashing and the companies will continue all the time it is an option. On the BALPA general discussion site there is a "WOULD YOU LET YOUR FAMILY FLY RYANAIR" thread. Maybe it should now read Easyjet instead. At least Ryanair keep you flying and paid with a fixed roster pattern with a good rest period.

Any Panarama producers want to highlight how companys are staffing the aircraft?

There are plenty of experienced guys to choose from but Easy and the others choose not to. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

D and F :8

[siftydog]

Would there be such a queue of wannabees willing to mortgage mum and dad's house if CTC sold it to them straight at the outset?

If the truth were known (I'd put money on these kids working for free next year to stay current), I think the flood would quite soon dry to a trickle.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

It seems that the EU has a lot to answer for here - but not intentionally.

The free movement of workers between EU states continually fuels the fire of the airlines' demands for labour.

What would the situation have been I wonder if the major low cost carriers had depended upon a native market for pilots rather than the far more substantial European one?

The idea of Europe might be a 'level playing field' for employment, but, due to an ever wider divergence in economic expectations between workers in the Member States the playing field is becoming far from 'level' insofar as labour availability and cost is concerned to the enormous benefit of the airlines.

Whether, for many reasons, this situation is sustainable or whether it is an opportunist 'crop' which the airlines are reaping in the short-term only time will tell.

I don't know of any other industry where such an exploitation of labour is taking place and it seems to fly in the face of all the toil and tears expended over the years in obtaining rights for the workers, certainly in the UK.

I am by no means a 'Union Man' but it seems it becoming a free market without the 'controls' evident in other industries.

Maybe there is no end to it and this is the way it is going to be in the future?

It is one thing having 'flexible working' but quite another when this turns into exploitation.

With the current Jet2.com recruitment drive it seems everyone is jumping on this particular 'Bandwagon'.

KR

FOK

PS: I suppose the flip side is whether, without the EU, there would ever have been the upsurge in low-cost airlines?

[cheesycol]

Why are Balpa washing their hands of this? Because the flexi-crew pilots have no contract is not a reason to not pursue a resolution to this problem. The ramifications of this policy will be felt amongst all of us in the UK. Are the Easy CC/big Balpa really not doing anything about this? The last issue of The Log seemed fairly disheartening.

[BALLSOUT]

Some might like to note, not only does Ryanair keep their cadets flying, while paying them a reasonable hourly rate. They are now starting to offer existing cadets the opportunity to switch onto a full contract of employment.

[mikehammer]

So what would you have them do, WWW? Lay down their career aspirations at the altar of your expectations of what junior FO T's & C's should be? Don't be absurd. Supply and demand is the unstoppable force you refer to,


Indeed. Also, sorry to keep banging on about this (I've mentioned it a lot elsewhere), but those of us who have gone by the "proper" route and not paid for ratings, find ourselves with a turboprop rating and experience that nobody is interested in.

It is simply supply and demand, as has been said. Easyjet, when they started to lose pilots, worked out why and substantially changed their terms and conditions to what some described as equal to the best. That has changed back again, why? Because they can without losing staff. As soon as there is somewhere else for staff to go and the grass is greener, off they will trot. Meantime it is very frustrating, and the temptation to spend my way out of this recession is great, if it can double my salary (for the cost of 6 months pay) and save me what is almost certainly a 2 - 5 year wait (total guess!). Similarly, when I get that higher salary, I will also join you in moaning about the zombies. Moaning at a professional level is all I am good at, and all I am good for these days.:*

WWW I understand your emotion - you have the job you want, and see it being eroded, but it is the market causing that erosion, your zombies are merely a reflection and an instrument of that market. Moaning here won't change any of that. Mind you, it doesn't seem to stop me moaning about my own predicament.

[Speevy]

The very sad thing is that 6 months ago you would have had lots of easyJet pilots participating to this thread trying to demonstrate why FR and U2 are two different deals, but up until now nobody is willing to do so.

I am flying for easyJet and I used to think it was a great job but things are quickly turning ugly here..


that has changed back again, why? Because they can without losing staff. As soon as there is somewhere else for staff to go and the grass is greener, off they will trot.

Yep I totally agree..

Speevy

[SpiralStability]

The following is an extract from a report compiled by a strategy consultant for easyJet back in 2007. A sad indication of where these kind of people are going, with no thought about any bigger picture other than next years bonus targets.


Quote:
Reducing employment costs is possible only if EZY relaxes some of the constraints imposed upon it, e.g.
– Local contracts:
- Contracting crew in lower social security cost countries
– Standardised terms and conditions for crew
- De-unionising pilots through use of contracting structures (such as RYR's Brookfield contract) to enable
differential pay scales and individually negotiated terms and conditions
• Furthermore, the current fragmented crew basing strategy imposes additional restrictions
– Forming fewer, larger crew bases may deliver savings by:
- Improving the average BH productivity of crew
- Enabling a greater quantity of training to be delivered at base
– Locating crew bases in lower labour cost locations and flying into commercial markets could deliver further
employment cost savings

[Pizzaro]

BALPA need look at this CTC situation. The pilot community are going to be the losers in all of this, re terms and conditions. What other profession would let it self be treated like this.

[Brakes to Park]

Boecapt. What a pathetic title to a thread. I'll be careful not to insult you too much though 'cos I bet your dad is bigger than my dad.

[OSCAR YANKEE]

Apparently BALPA can't because the FO's are technically not employed by easyjet, they are employed by CTC. And we do not have a scope clause......

[The Real Slim Shady]

The LCCs have to manage costs to deliver the now universal cheap flight to the public.

Having cut sales and distribution costs by going over to web based sales and now check in, and minimised ground handling costs by using secondary airports who will often subsidise the operation they have to look at other ways of bringing down their expenses.

Fuel is the obvious big one but there still exists in the mind of many the " add half a tonne for the wife and kids" mentality: that doesn't help anyone. Fuel accounts for between 16% and 20% of the airline cost, flight crew around 14% and ground handling and airport fees around 14%.

Better, in my opinion, to make the savings on fuel and airport / handling charges than on flight crew: however, when MOL tries to push the airports into cutting their charges he is vilified on here.

Surely a 2% cut in airport fees and all of us working to minimise fuel burn is a much better solution than cadets at easyjet working for virtually nothing.

[WidebodyWillie]

I agree slim. ATC needs to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century to help us make flights more fuel efficient.

Off topic sorry chaps...

[The Real Slim Shady]

Widebody

I don't think it is off topic: if we can produce a collective solution that can be presented either via a union or company as a way of reducing costs without prejudicing the livelhoods and Ts and Cs of crew members your point is particularly valid.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Via a union, Slim?

Have you taken leave of your senses? Since when have any of them demonstated a genuine interest in corporate health?

Pilots would do well to study the teachings of Edward de Bono more, and focus less on the short termism that brands us as the bunch of timid, self-interested nimbyists we all too often are.

Hope you're well, old boy!

[The Real Slim Shady]

It gives the union the chance to prove it's mettle Leo :eek:

Naturally I wouldn't hold out a soupcon of hope, but to be fair, which you and I indubitably are, we ought to let them have a crack at it to put the subscription money to use in the member's benefit, rather than lunches etc. ;)

[Viking101]

easyJet is worse than Ryanair nowadays.

Of course it depends on just how you compare it, I know.

It also depends on how easyet is comparing costs between the airlines; AH is using his numbers to make the employees within the orange (now totally squashed) to make them feel like not being effective enough. Thats BS.

Anyway, all this LCC thing has dived in a negative spiral. Wonder how much more it will take for these airlines to lose all pilots because they cant be botherd about this nonsen anymore, and just leave for a better and worthwhile life.

I certainly do.

[Dr Eckener]

Supply and demand is the unstoppable force you refer to, not the "zombie army"
Whilst this is true, it is also true that our industry is blighted by the need to be the proud owner of a particular type rating to fly a particular type. This totally skews the market, and as long as companies can fob off the type costs onto job hungry cadets the situation will not improve. This is where WWW's 'zombie army' comes into it. Yes we were all first job seekers once, but most of us did not expect a jet job straight out of training, and consequently worked our way through the system. Many of us are now stuck on turboprops or older jets, as the endless line of TR purchasing debt ridden desperados stab each other in the back to climb into the RHS of an Airbus or 737NG for a summer of low pay followed by unemployment, encouraged by the likes of Easy/FR/Jet2 etc.

Until there is regulation from EASA et al the situation will not improve. I for one am seriously looking at exit strategies to depart this rotten industry :ugh:

[EZGOEK330FO]

Somebody sent me this,

A mouse looked through the crack in the wall To see the farmer and his wife open a package.

"What food might this contain?" The mouse wondered.

He was d eva stated to discover it was a mousetrap.

Retreating to the farmyard, the mouse proclaimed this warning :

"There is a mousetrap in the house! There is a mousetrap in the house!"

The chicken clucked and scratched, raised her head and said, "Mr. Mouse, I can tell this is a grave concern to you, But it is of no consequence to me. I cannot be bothered by it."

The mouse turned to the pig and told him,"There is a mousetrap in the house!

There is a mousetrap in the house!"

The pig sympathized, but said, "I am so very sorry, Mr.. Mouse, but there is nothing I can do about it but pray. Be assured you are in my prayers."

The mouse turned to the cow and said, "There is a mousetrap in the house!

There is a mousetrap in the house!"

The cow said, "Wow, Mr. Mouse. I'm sorry for you, But it's no skin off my nose."

So, the mouse returned to the house, head down and dejected, to face the farmer's mousetrap . . . Alone. . .

That very night a sound was heard throughout the house -- The sound Of a mousetrap catching its prey.

The farmer's wife rushed to see what was caught. In the darkness, she did not see it. It was a venomous snake Whose tail was caught in the trap.

The snake bit the farmer's wife. The farmer rushed her to the hospital.

When she returned home she still had a fever. Everyone knows you treat a fever With fresh chicken soup..

So the farmer took his hatchet to the farmyard for the soup's main ingredient:

But his wife's sickness continued. Friends and neighbours came to sit with her Around the clock. To feed them, The farmer butchered the pig.

But, alas, The farmer's wife did not get well...

She died.

So many people came for her funeral that the farmer had the cow slaughtered to provide enough meat for all of them For the funeral luncheon.

And the mouse looked upon it all from his crack in the wall With great sadness.

So, the next time you hear someone is facing a problem and you think it doesn't concern you,

remember ---

When one of us is threatened, we are all at risk. We are all involved in this journey called life.

We must keep an eye out for one another and make an extra effort to encourage one another.

- REMEMBER -

EACH OF US IS A VITAL THREAD

IN ANOTHER PERSON'S TAPESTRY.

OUR LIVES ARE WOVEN TOGETHER

FOR A REASON.

One of the best things to hold onto In this world is a FRIEND.

[JW411]

Lovely story; but just to give it the happy ending, was the mouse in the BA final salary scheme and, if so, with a £3 billion debt in the pension fund, was his widow still guaranteed to get a good payout?

[Mintflavour]

The way things have gone in the industry in terms of continually recruiting Cheap labour over experienced guys is complete madness and I agree with all what has been said above. But it is only going to get worse as more management cotton on to the O'leary methods.

So what can we do about it and tackle the problem as individuals?

I read the BALPA Log article but I am not convinced that BALPA is strong enough or willing to save the day.

Further more I do not feel that Joe public are fully aware of what is really going on in the industry. Everybody who I tell, are shocked, and I do wander if they would feel slightly differently when they are getting on to the aircaft with this knowledge. (I am not saying cadets are unsafe, but I do feel the impact of fatigue of captains continually flying with inexperience FO's may have some affect on flight safety, please correct me if I'm wrong those captains who do not feel this way I will be more than happy to stand corrected).

I was dissappointed that the Panarama program about FR did not Highlight in detail the way pilots and crew are treated. Only to finish with a numpty saying he wants to fly for FR:ok:. Im sure O'leary loved that.

So in the long term how will it end up
a) all the decent people leaving the industry and let the flow of Cheap labour fly for nothing.
b) Eventually all the pilots will be fed up with the lowered T&C's and then strike when things are really bad.

I don't know but currently I can't see any positive moves by anyone to stop the situation getting worse.

mint

[The Real Slim Shady]

Great story....where exactly was the union rep during all of that? ;)

[Barden]

A lack of a scope clause makes this sort of thing very difficult to counter.

To any journos reading this, there is a story here for you. Using the right hand seat of a public transport aircraft as a training lab unnecessarily for profit reasons exposes passengers to unnecessary risk.

For any BALPA members reading this, you own the union and if you feel strongly about this, make it work for you - lobby your company council and the NEC as well. A strongly worded letter to the Log would be a good starting point.

[Hahn]

I do feel the impact of fatigue of captains continually flying with inexperience FO's may have some affect on flight safety, please correct me if I'm wrong those captains who do not feel this way I will be more than happy to stand corrected.

Not necessarily, most of the "inexperienced" are young and enjoy their social status. As a result they take a nap on every other sector which leaves the skipper with an hour or so of undisturbed, peacefull cruising through the skies. Priceless.

[CTCCadet2006]

As an FO on one of these contracts.

Firstly I didn’t go to the bank of Mum and Dad as CTC was as close to an old sponsored scheme as possible due to the unsecured bond. This was the only way I could afford to enter the industry, otherwise I would have joined the RAF. Hindsight is a wonderful thing I know.

I think that the zombie references is very unfair, this is a career I have always worked towards and have worked very hard and sacrificed a lot to get here. Airlines have always had a requirement for direct entry pilots and airlines have had schemes allowing this. Everybody has to enter the industry through a path and to the best of my knowledge no one I ve flown with has ever had anything critical about the standards of us cadets.

None of us want to be the ones responsible for driving terms and conditions down and are all acutely aware we are. We all turned down joining Ryanair, which CTC were heavily pushing when we finished training, deciding instead to hold out for one of the partner airlines, myself over 9 months. Along with other CTC colleagues I see this as a career and not just the opportunity to fly a big aircraft and hence didn’t want to join Ryanair and contribute to the poor conditions however they appear to have followed us.

We were always led to believe that permanent contracts were on the cards with easyjet at some point. We’re now in the situation where we literally have no other options but accept what ever is given to us. In particular finances are very tight due to the bond now being handed over to us as we’re no longer entitled to the cadet salary. Refusing anything now will only result in us punishing ourselves while other cadets come through and take the positions. I personally do not hold CTC responsible, as if CTC said no, the airline would only go somewhere else.

I believe no one wants to be driving terms and conditions down and are aware this will eventually lead standards and abilities the same way. We want to be in an industry attracting the most competitive applicants.

I am a member of BALPA and am open to suggestions of how we can improve the situation but without the support of our colleagues leaves us with nothing we can do.

I am very grateful to BOECAPT for raising the conversation and on a personal note enjoyed EZGOEK330FO's story.

[Mister Geezer]

I honestly think it is too late really. easyJet have their flexi crew system for new F/Os and now Jet2 are now effectively offering summer only contracts with reduced pay. The list of new schemes will only get longer and the number airlines that copy and follow suit will only get longer too.

I would personally not shed a tear if I turned my back on the airline industry and moved into the corporate world. At least the treatment of crews does seem to be slightly better when compared to what the airline industry offers. I have only been airline flying for six years but I have many more left. I have noticed a marked change in conditions for crews in those six years. I dread to think what mess the industry will be in 10 years from now, never mind twenty or thirty!

A friend of mine who is at easyJet has recently been off on maternity leave. I was totally astonished when she said to me that she has been informed that she has to pay for the privilege of a jump-seat trip for familiarisation purposes, prior to her getting back in the seat.

Have we all gone barking mad or do I need to wake up and adjust to the 21st century? :ugh:

[Viking101]

Why I am not surprised to hear that one has to start paying for a jump seat now?

Some airlines make you even pay to start the command assessments. If you fail the assessments you are suddenly £4500 short. Its all business.

As the whole aviation business is going, no matter what airline you will be working for, will be crap. All T&C are detoriating for everyone.

easyJet used to be a great place to work. Today I think most employees wish they were not working there anymore. And thats what the management want them to think so they can fire all people on permanent contracts and then hire temp contractors.

Now its apparently offical that easyJet has come to an agreement with Brookfield. Thought that was a goalie for Ryaniar? Interesting evolution here.

Maybe a LOL is not far away, due to mental breakdown....

:{

[EGCC4284]

All you guys at easyJet should stop issing about, join BALPA, get your CC to go in and tell them to stop it or you will make a big demand in 2010 and if you dont get it, you will ballot for action.

Have you got a BALPA forum, do you not talk about this or what.

[G-AWZK]

Some airlines make you even pay to start the command assessments. If you fail the assessments you are suddenly £4500 short. Its all business.

Bull****.

If a company has to ask for charity from their employees they should not be in business. Staff training is a legitimate company cost. Even moreso for SAFETY CRITICAL employees.

When the hell are pilots going to wake up and realise they are getting shagged over a barrel with no vaseline? I am beginning to think that they like it :ugh:

[Dan Winterland]

Everyone asks 'What can a union do for us" and not "What can we do for a union". The union is you, not a group of people in a building in a different base who you send money to each month. A union will give you advice and the backup of your fellow workers but you have to form a company council and organise yourselves. When the management see a cohesive body who have some power to affect their profits, that's when they take notice.

Leo Hairy Camel (anagram of Michael O'Leary BTW) will come on here very soon to debunk this, but it works. My company is the samller of a group of two. The largest have a very disjointed pilot body thanks to a successful campaign of splitting the workforce by the management. They now have two unions who are at each others throats and the main union has less than 50% membership. they achieve nothing and are constantly whining about the reduction in their Ts and Cs, but don't see the big picture. It reminds me of the Peoples Judean Front bitching about the Peoples Front of Judea and not bothering the Romans.

The smaller company has over 95% union membership, our Ts and Cs are intact and two years ago we got a 20% pay rise.

Divide and conquer worked for Julius Caesar and it works for airline management just as well.

[silverknapper]

I think that the zombie references is very unfair, this is a career I have always worked towards and have worked very hard and sacrificed a lot to get here

I would say they are spot on.
And what sacrifices exactly did you make? Sounds to me like you took the easy option that has just blown up in your face.

[Rednex]

CTCCADET2006

Looks like CTC are full of **** (no surprise there) you should of gone to FR as your would be in a much better situation than you are now. :ugh:

[WidebodyWillie]

you should of gone to FR as your would be in a much better situation than you are now

Oh dear....

[Mister Geezer]

Save your effort guys since there is no point trying to convert the unwashed. Whilst there are empty seats being offered on modern Airbus and Boeing aircraft, the seats will get filled.

Take a look at Royal Air Maroc and the struggle that they have had with eroding Ts & Cs, poorer rostering and the 'Eaglejet' pay to fly scheme. In fact I think there was even a IFALPA recruitment ban in place at RAM at one point. perhaps it is still active?

However recruitment bans and eroding conditions for their peers, are not going to deter the youngsters from strapping into the RHS. I am sure the queue for such vacancies will be just as long as well.

In the case of easyJet, don't BALPA understand that the introduction of flexi crew is potentially paving a path towards the company trying to bring in lower terms and conditions across the board? I am sure there is a line that will be crossed at some point and BALPA will indeed put their foot down, but they should have done it long ago in my view. The excuse of 'they (flexi crew cadets) are not employed by easyJet' is simply burying ones head in the sand... is it not? I am not employed by easyJet so I am merely passing comment from what I am seeing from the outside.

[orangetree]

I would imagine that easyjet BALPA totally understand the consequences of flexi crew and pay to fly schemes to the point where they initiated the campaign in BALPA HQ. Unfortunately in the harsh world of reality, if the easy CC can not get their membership to take interest in the current 'consultation' process ballot which will (with 100% certainty) come back and haunt every single base at some point (even darling LGW) then it is very unlikely they will be able to effect a response over a group of young contractors who are not officially employed by the company.
This is the reality we all face. The silent majority are feeling ok in there own back yard and don't want disturbed. Sad but true.

[gyni]

When it was suggested that the pay for 150 hours line training scheme that easy suffered last summer was perhaps a bad idea and the start of the rot and that perhaps BALPA should investigate, I believe that the BALPA response at the time was that time could have been spent looking at more important issues and that in fact it was a useful revenue stream for the company, which we shouldn't really deny them. Indeed, I even remember one TC saying it was a good idea as it prevented his training skills from becoming rusty!!:ugh:

That was the response in 2008. Perhaps in 2009 we can all see what is happening? I hope.

[STATLER]

Some very interesting statements!

I have said it before but but will again, the whole CTC, Eaglejet type schemes plus cut to the bone cost cutting by the airlines themselves will not end until somebody on such a scheme or an airline involved with rampant cost cutting is involved in either a major incident or a fatal accident.
Once this happens it will be placed in the hands of the AAIB, and as the AAIB seems to leave no stone unturned in getting to the bottom of these events things will eventually be brought to the public forum.
The media will have an absolute field day and it will be put down to a one off and the UK's excellent accident statistics will be quoted and it will all go away. It will then happen again and the above proccess will start all over again.

The insurers will then start to get involved and a minimum experience level for crews will be levied on aircraft type, weight etc. The airlines want to save costs but so do the insurers and It doesn't take a genius to work out who will win. It will take a few muti million pound insurance claims to start the ball rolling.

I haven't mentioned the CAA yet, there is no point as they are no longer an authority more an administration, there just to look after the paperwork and nothing more.

[Nil further]

Hear hear

I could not believe that comment about it being a good idea as it stopped the training skills from getting rusty ,or indeed the useful revenue nonsense.
Once again the old im all right jack , im a training capt nonsense.
Not so all right now that the company want to take 20 of you away and replace you with CTC trainers(we have a contract with them ,sorry there is nothing can be done about that !)

[FL370 Officeboy]

BALPA are not interested in FOs terms and conditions..regardless of what airline it is. BALPA CC reps are mainly senior captains and hence it's not surprising to see most BALPA action biased toward senior pilots. Across the industry Ts & Cs have been butchered at entry level, often to pay for maintaining or improving the senior guys' conditions. It is hardly surprising therefore to see these schemes allowed without so much of a token bleat from the union.

I read with interest the cabin crew thread about potential strikes at BA. Lots of pilots are on there criticising BASSA reps, saying how they're all senior people looking after their own interests. Sounds VERY familiar.

[CTCCadet2006]

Silverknapper what a very unproductive post. My post was intended to add to the discussion, which isn’t necessarily about CTC in particular but about the deteriorating terms and conditions. However in response.

The airlines have always had a need to take direct entry pilots in and the ethos of the CTC that I joined was that money wasn’t a factor but ability. I can see how this may have been blurred slightly now, however wasn’t when I joined. You have no idea of my background or flying experience.

The industry needs to be able to attract top candidates and by having the only route into the industry through other smaller airlines isn’t necessarily wrong however as you’ll find from the policy of most major airlines and history, this route doesn’t necessarily produce the best pilots all of time. Companies like CTC only exist because the industry allowed the airlines to find a cheaper way of providing their direct entry cadets. These schemes facilitate attracting people away from other top careers like medicine and law and in to flying, hence aiding the industry standards. Without them other method of recruitment would be unable to cope with the demand, but this is for another topic.

My understanding of this topic was to address and discuss the falling terms and conditions which effects all pilots and their careers in all airlines, highlighted most recently in easyjet. I am in the situation that I have to accept the terms and conditions for now but will soon be able to jump ship somewhere else very shortly. All this does is allow the conditions to get worse for the guys behind and allow the rot to grow further up the chain. This accepting and planning to jump ship attitude allowed this situation to develop in FR (not the pilots fault), but ignored by the industry. This is directly the reason it can now be seen in easyjet, I am sure this will soon be seen as a standard in all airlines if allowed to continue; and will move further up the chain. Having very poor entry terms and conditions eventually brings down the conditions higher up and achieves nothing but to reduce the standards of the pilots entering the career, a genuine concern for all.

Unfortunately your attitude and apparent jealousy does nothing but to distract from the post's topic. I regret posting however I am sure you can find a home for your CTC easy way out cadet bashing on a different forum.

To others with a genuine interest in the conversation I apologise for going a little bit off topic but felt it necessary to re inform some short sightedness.

[Dr Eckener]

The industry needs to be able to attract top candidates and by having the only route into the industry through other smaller airlines isn’t necessarily wrong however as you’ll find from the policy of most major airlines and history, this route doesn’t necessarily produce the best pilots all of time. Companies like CTC only exist because the industry allowed the airlines to find a cheaper way of providing their direct entry cadets
Think you are contradicting yourself there old boy. I'm not sure I'd come on here and infer that you are somehow 'better' than non CTC pilots! Doesn't exactly sell your case.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

My coining of the phrase Wannabe Zombie Army was never derogatory to CTC cadets with whom I have regularly enjoyed working for many years.

Rather the phrase was born out of the fact that no matter how bad, how futile, how bleak the pilot employment market becomes there never ceases to be a supply, topped up monthly, of people willing to spend £50,60,70,80,90,100,110,000 on flying training (think £75k Integrated course + accommodation + £33k SSTR with RYR). There has not been a day gone past over the last two years where the Wannabes forum has not had a new post on the various 'How Do I Apply To' threads.

All Wannabes and indeed all cadets carrying huge debt burdens have my complete sympathy and total support.

The root of the problem is not people. It is money. On the one hand the desire for airlines to make it and on the other the ability of Wannabes to get hold of it.


WWW

[CTCCadet2006]

Apologies, was not my intention. Intention was just to counter act the insinuation that we some how we had this coming or that we are lesser pilots because we went through a scheme design to take us straight in to a jet type ratings. This doesn’t just include the CTC stream but also the other major flying schools. I m not sure blaming cadets coming out of training and saying that nothing will change until people aren’t prepared to take financial risk to get into the industry is flawed.

I believe the industry requires a mixed in take from all backgrounds and the decline in terms will eventually dry up the standard and quantity from all streams. Ideally the airlines would start their own schemes back up to compliment experienced pilots joining and this would mean no further need for schemes such as CTC. Currently this isn't a route into the industry though.

My intention wasn’t take the focus of the discussion on to me, but to refocus on what is a bigger issue for the industry. Far bigger than whether a few cadets deserve to be treated this way as they didn’t build their hours over years while working another job, which appears to be clouding the conversation. I initially only intended to provide the point of view from someone working under the new terms and conditions in order to aid the thread.

[Kak Klaxon]

The industry could learn from Logans Run, a 1970s film where your head was blown up at the age of 30 to make room for younger people.
2 years to train,5 years RHS, 3 LHS then BANG, next please. A well known training school would continue to be able to run their Falcon on the backs of the Cadets parents borrowed money, the airlines would never have to pay beyond paypoint 7 and save a fortune plus no pension to worry about, the crews would never get enough hours to get fed up with the job.........its win win all the way!

One potential problem my be getting enough nylon flares for all the applicants to this new program plus static discharge issues on the flight deck.

[blackred1443]

ctc cadet

you said, referring to the ctc cadetships

These schemes facilitate attracting people away from other top careers like medicine and law and in to flying, hence aiding the industry standards

Would you care to elaborate?

I'm one of these mere mortals whose flew with a smaller carrier before ezy. I'm more than a little curious to know why the industry standards need raising and how you as a ctc cadet contribute to raising these standards?

[Zippy Monster]

CTCCadet2006 you make some fair points, but then I'm afraid you go and negate them with some absolute rubbish.:

Companies like CTC only exist because the industry allowed the airlines to find a cheaper way of providing their direct entry cadets....indeed. That would seem to be their main purpose.

These schemes facilitate attracting people away from other top careers like medicine and law and in to flying......Nonsense. How many people doing, for example, a law or medical degree, do you think were undecided about what career to follow and ended up on the CTC course on the basis of what the CTC course offered?

Those on my course back in the day were from a wide variety of backgrounds and had a range of qualifications - for some it was the start of a second career having already done something else completely different. But the one thing everyone had in common was the desire for a flying career more than any other; it wasn't a case of being attracted into it at the expense of whatever industry they might have ended up in, and of course it was before all this crap with 'flexible' contracts and part-time working and the general race-to-the-bottom started in earnest. If it wasn't for the schemes like CTC, most would have ended up somewhere in the flying industry having trained via one of the other routes were available. I don't know anyone on the course who was there simply because CTC convinced them it was a better career than medicine or law, to quote your examples.

hence aiding the industry standards.What evidence is there to suggest - and what makes you think - that someone who makes a good doctor or lawyer is also going to make a good pilot; conversely, what evidence is there to suggest that people from the more traditional routes are of a lower standard, as your statement can be taken to imply? I can see that some contributors on this forum might well be offended by that comment, as blackred has already alluded to... I think I would be if I'd gone down the more traditional route rather than the CTC course.

By all means come on here and correct people's misconceptions about the CTC course, but at least re-read your posts before posting and think how they sound. There are a lot of people in and around the industry with an aloof and slightly negative attitude towards CTC and its 'product', and it doesn't help when people make statements which can be misconstrued!

As a footnote, I would urge anyone thinking of spending money on flight training at the moment with a view to getting a job in the airlines to find and read the Roland Berger report, which has been mentioned earlier in this thread. Some of it is actually very chilling. When you see what the management of one of the biggest takers of CTC cadets are trying to do to the airline on the back of that report, and consider the wider ramifications for the industry as a whole if (when) it happens, it might make you think twice about throwing money at a job which soon will never be the same as it was. If I wasn't already in the industry, would I even consider getting involved now? Not on your life.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand...

[CTCCadet2006]

That was not was I was saying, and I have well and truly learnt my lesson about why not to post on pprune. As every forum seems to turn into a slaging match between so called professionals.

The fact is as the terms and conditions across the whole industry decline so does the desirability of the career and the standard of applicant to the industry will follow. The point was not focused on CTC cadets but a need for the industry to have attractive routes in to it.

I was merely trying to defend the fact that there seems to be a feeling that the cadet schemes seem to be considered less legitimate to many and guys joining via this scheme are deserving of poor treatment. When in actual fact they are there to replace the previous direct entry pilots the airlines used to fund which are required.

There is a need to attract quality applicants to the profession competing with other very attractive careers and expecting all pilots to start with a ppl then work for next to nothing for a few years instructing, then move in to small twin job etc in order for the pilot to be consider legitimate does not make for an attractive career. This is compounded with the poor conditions on entering a jet job that the industry is working towards. I did not however state the path was any less legitimate or people taking that path have any less ability.

Zippy your signing off of the post "would I even consider getting involved now? Not on your life." just proves my point. I m sure your a very capable and switched on pilot and due to decline in conditions your saying you wouldn't join the industry, exactly the point i m making. The medical/law reference wasn't ment to be taken literally, but maybe these are the type of career you might have ended up in, had you decided against flying.

Your welcome to read as you will into it, however I won’t be posting again as this is a completely different discussion and I have no intentions to further distract from what started as a well reasoned discussed thread.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

There is an unstoppable Wannabe Zombie Army who are nourished (still) by the irrational bank of Mum&Dad who are in turn powered by unnatural house price inflation.
So, little Jimmy Plane-Spotter wants to be a pilot. Good for you, lad. Before you do so, though, prepare yourself to be branded the one who single-handedly reduces conditions industry wide to the equivalent of a Dickensian sweatshop. But you have a choice, because according to WWW... (http://www.pprune.org/members/6151-wee-weasley-welshman)
My coining of the phrase Wannabe Zombie Army was never derogatory to CTC cadets
its just every other cadet organisation that's to blame. Keeping up so far? So, if you go to CTC/Easyjet, you'll be raped in a way unheard of by any other airline, but you'll not be a zombie warrior. Go to Ryanair, though, and you'll be a sergeant of the living dead in no time at all, according to WWW (http://www.pprune.org/members/6151-wee-weasley-welshman), and a singular blight on the piloting industry too. Never mind that you'll be earning far more and flying much more than CTC rape victims, with a far better career path to boot! What gorgeous double standards, WWW (http://www.pprune.org/members/6151-wee-weasley-welshman), when an apology would have made for a perfectly clean getaway.
All Wannabes and indeed all cadets carrying huge debt burdens have my complete sympathy and total support.
Oh, well that clears it up then. Zombie Army is such a supportive term, isn't it? How silly of me.
The root of the problem is not people. It is money.
Ah yes, Welsh Wisdom at it's Wittiest. Somebody call the CAA and have them ban money, would you? Or perhaps outlaw the love of children? And if that doesn't work, lobotomise any teenager who dares to aspire to the lonely impulse of delight that drives us to our tumult in the clouds.

Press on, youngsters. Not all of us old bastards of the air would seek to deny you your place in our industry. Do whatever you have to in order to succeed. Determination is the one constant among those who excel in life, no matter what. Wade through the convoluted argument and twisted logic on these vanity pages if you like, but remember your goal and you will succeed. Good luck to you.

[The Real Slim Shady]

The cadet route to the RHS, regardless of whether it is via CTC or with FR, has stepped onto the front page because it is virtually the only route left open.

The people who have paid out for ATPL training, had until recently, the option of wading through a company holding pool for anything up to 2 years, or paying for a TR, and getting a job with easy or FR.

The folks who took the FR route shelled out 33K € for a 738 TR and at the end of line training were / are trousering around €3500 -€4000 a month: in 12 months while their peers earn minimum wage filling shelves at Tesco or handing out fries at Mickey D's the Zombie Army have earned enough to pay back the bulk of the TR.

Now if bmi or BA or FlyBe or Virgin or Thomson were hiring the folks would have a choice of whether to pay for a TR or accept a bond and join another company: the reality is that BA are not taking on cadets ( and when they do joined up writing skills are higher up the priority scale than flying ability ) nor are bmi and Virgin only take experienced FOs. With FlyBe you can cut your teeth on the Dash but how many people do they need and will it reduce your marketability in the future if you go down that route?

FR and easy want cadets not simply becasue in the short term they are cheaper but because they are a blank canvas: they don't have to "unlearn" another set of SOPs nor do they bring another culture to the company. Equally, hiring cadets spreads the demograph and facilitates career progression in an expanding organistion for SFOs to move to the LHS.

Finally, it is the choice of the airline management who they employ: it's their trainset.

[oapilot]

FR and easy want cadets not simply becasue in the short term they are cheaper but...

Sadly Slim, that's exactly why the current crop of airline managers want them, why else would the hours dry up once the experience (and therefore cost) builds up?

[Mister Geezer]

I feel WWW has nearly hit the nail on the head:

The root of the problem is not people. It is money. On the one hand the desire for airlines to make it and on the other the ability of Wannabes to get hold of it.

The root problem is the management and their desire to make/save money... to the potential detriment of their existing and future employees.

There are wannabes that will always find the cash so that is a constant rather than a variable!

The Real Slim Shady

FR and easy want cadets not simply becasue in the short term they are cheaper but because they are a blank canvas: they don't have to "unlearn" another set of SOPs nor do they bring another culture to the company.

The bottom line here is cost and nothing else. If an airline is finding that they are having issues with the ability of direct entry pilots, then there are serious flaws in that airline's selection process. After all, a robust selection is purely there to weed out the weak individuals.

I think it is time to press the ignore button with Leo now. I don't come onto PPRuNe to be subjected to 'management spin'. The fact that it is linked to 'Harp Airways', just makes it even worse... :yuk:

[Boecapt]

Think we may have lost our way some what. I don’t think the wannabees/cadets can be to blame for this. We have all been there at some point and there has to be means to enter the industry. I think it is very sad we have reached the stage where guys are expected to risk such large sums of money to even consider the job. Getting side tracked vilifying CTCCadet for an admittedly not well worded point but essentially a good observation is not the way forward either. We do need to ensure we have a desirable career and I probably would have gone in to medicine had I not ended up in flying many years ago!!

I think that rather than blaming everyone else we have to take responsibility as a pilot body. I for one have been guilty of complacency looking across to FR and considering pilots only having themselves to blame for accepting the conditions.

However with this now happening at easyjet the wolf is probably through the door and not far from all airlines as the standard. Once this happens I fear there will no turning back as all conditions crumble away.

This should now be a major issue for BALPA to deal with and not just the EZY CC but completely across the board. By allowing this to stand at EZY we are asking for trouble. Rather than squabbling over blame we should be standing together, increasing the awareness and doing all we can to prevent it happening. If BALPA can’t prevent the airlines going down this route through negotiations with the management is it not time BALPA were lobbying for legislation? Surely protecting each others terms is the main reason for a union?

[postman23]

Geezer and such, the root problem is not money, it is greed.
Money is a necessity, greed is not. There is a significant difference, although sometimes hard to spot.

[silverknapper]

These schemes facilitate attracting people away from other top careers like medicine and law and in to flying, hence aiding the industry standards
Don't make me laugh!!!! What it attracted was a large mix of people. Some with a genuine passion for aviation who had probably already commenced PPL training. Indeed a good mate of mine joined up with 200 hrs on his PPL. Yet still bonded for the full amount. Hmmmm.
However it also attracted a lot of people who really didn't have more than a passing interest. Would never have considered flying if it would cost them anything, and who are only interested in pushing buttons on a shiny jet.
Many people describe medicine as a vocation, a view I agree with. Anyone who genuinely wants to be a medic, shows the necessary commitment and more importantly makes the grade wouldn't turn down this career for flying. As anyone with all the above qualities but related to aviation wouldn't have to think twice.
Without them other method of recruitment would be unable to cope with the demand
Without them there wouldn't be a glut of zombies queuing up to pay for type ratings, line training etc etc.
Unfortunately your attitude and apparent jealousy
My 'attitude' is one shared by the vast majority of people on this forum, not to mention in this industry. Jealousy!!!! Don't make me laugh. I have a contract which lasts all year round thank you very much. I get paid no matter how little or how hard I work, which by the way is considerably more than £1000 a month. I even get paid for my holidays. My TR was paid for, I was paid while I trained. I even get staff travel. When I moved to the LHS I got paid full whack from day one.
Harsh comments maybe but you need a reality check after posting such drivel.
But hey if you are the 'top people' that CTC have managed to tempt away from governing the Bank of England or performing brain surgery maybe it's time to leave the UK.

[one post only!]

I think this thread demonstrates perfectly my fear that we are all f***ed!

CTCcadet was basically saying that flexicrew/brookfield are reducing the T&C's in the industry. The T&C's are now terrible for new starters. As they reduce they will drag down the T&C's for the rest of us. It is happening.

While trying to say this because he/she mentioned law/medicine people took their eye of the ball and turned on him. In fighting started. Bitching. Posturing. I am ok I have a job its your fault. Its not my fault its the system. ETC ETC ETC.

I am not having a go (I am just as guilty of this) but it is what seems to happen. While we argue and bitch the T&C's slide further. Management sit laying plans of total career destruction. We are in the meantime outside in the playground still trying to decide what to do and don't notice the ball we were supposed to be watching has rolled into the middle of the M25!

I fear that by the time everyone realises what is happening and that it WILL affect them it will be too late.

There are just too many battles to be fought and I really doubt now we will win enough of them to make a difference.

0856......is it too early for a large brandy??

[siftydog]

The laws of cost control and supply and demand are such that this issue isn't going away in a hurry.

Probably the only arguement that stacks against mass sourcing from CTC and other such providers is safety.

I'm not taking a pip against individuals here; the schools turn out an excellent product. As a 10 year skipper with easy I've seen standards slowly drift as the airline sources the least experienced applicants from the cheapest sources. No, I'm not saying these guys aren't up to the job and there shouldn't be any of them, but a sensible recruitment program would see a mix of experience and backgrounds.
I'll put my hand up now and say I've made a couple of bold decisions over my flying career that a seasoned F/O would have challenged and quite rightly denied me. CTC cadet just doesn't have the grounding to see trouble in the making.

Curiously, all this is contradicted in the safety statistics. But remember, Easyjet like many operators now has a comprehensive FDM system that provides a rigid set of compliance gates that can make poor airmanship or bad decision making look like a perfectly regular flight. Also remember the equipment has changed; it's comfy seat, push button, meal off a table, always an easy day out really. Like driving a bus- or is it?

[Speevy]

meal off a table

Not for long if it would depend on Tina M...

Like driving a bus- or is it?


Really? 95% of the times maybe, but the 5% still makes the difference..

Try an approach in SUF with marginal wx and we the wonderful help you get from the local ATC for example (just a cat b aerodrome).

And that's without even mentioning when the sh*t really hits the fan..

Speevy

[Agaricus bisporus]

Trouble is, Doggy, that with the sort of super-rigid SOPs that have turned a skilled job involving judgement and experience into an unvariable scripted and choreographed ballet there is no room for airmanship any more.

Think about it - when was the last time you heard that word? Not for some time, I'd guess. Years probably. That is scary. Very scary. What chance do the cadets have of gainng any when its been scripted out of the job?

=====================================================

BALPA had better do a proper job over the nastiness that is coming, because if there is a strike, and I don't see how one can be avoided with the attitudes prevailing at present, it had better be won. My fear is that all the rhetoric and promises to strike will evaporate when push comes to shove, and a few brave, principled souls will find themselves deserted on the picket lines as the majority of their "colleagues" decide that discretion is the better part and craven out. The rancour and divisions that this would cause will be the end of any cohesion the pilots had left and will destroy for ever trust between the pilots (I've seen it before- it is a horrible thing to have in a company), and perhaps more seriously, trust in BALPA. This, I fear, is a scenario that some people are praying for, and working hard to achieve.

If a strike is broken in the full glare of the media's gleeful and extensive publicity it will so damage BALPA's reputation that it will not survive as a useful tool outside BA ever again, and perhaps not even there. I think a broken strike would be the end of BALPA as a credible force in the industry as a whole. The thought of our aviation industry without any protection at all from the rogues and thieves that run it these days is a dreadful prospect, and will quite simply signal the end of flying as a viable career choice. Look at the way dock workers were employed seventy years ago - hanging around the gates every morning in a mob waiting to catch the eye of the overseer who would hire individuals - the ones he liked (or whose bribes he liked...) for a day, a couple of days, or even - joy of joys - a whole week! The rest went home at 0830 unpaid and hungry. No sick pay. No pension. No holiday entitlement. No loss of licence, no nothing.

And all this coming from such a fanatically "politically correct" organisation. The hypocricy is simply staggering.

This isn't being melodramatic - this is where we are heading. Do not doubt it for a moment.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

There was a time when insurance companies insisted on a minimum number of flying hours before a pilot could be employed by an airline (I seem to remember that it was 1,000 hrs for the first airline I flew for which is why I had to 'hours build' before I got my first job).

Just imagine if insurance companies insisted on that requirement now? End of 200 hr cadet entry to the airlines.

Heaven forbid, but if there ever was an incident/accident maybe they would insist on this requirement in future?

One or two airlines would have to seriously re-think their strategy in that event.

KR

FOK

[OSCAR YANKEE]

Risk management is apparently a bit more sophisticated than "1000 hrs experience" these days.
Insurance companies allegedly want to see your stabilised app. statistics, and want insight in all areas of your risk management as such. "How many level busts did you have last month, what are you doing about it ?" etc.

They make things quantifiable. Even this is turning into a beancounter's paradise :ouch:

With an app. like that, the amount of experience in the flt. deck, is looked at as a secondary safety indicator.

[Viking101]

I remember the times when you had to build your hours before getting your first big job. I went to the States to do that, also worked for very small companies so I would get my 1000hrs before I got to a mediu airline.

Today its opposite. They take you with the minimum amount of hours whilst you are still hungry for a job, whilst you do ANYTHING to get the job. Whislt you are young too, you dont care too much about anything.

Now, being much older and with perspective in life- its very very different. You dont take anything anymore because there is so much else in life than this crap LCC standards. And the LCC airlines uses young and inexperienced people to take the jobs no-one did even 5 years ago. On crap salaries and conditions.

Safety is already far behind, not only because of all inexperienced crew, but because people are constantly fatigued and not to forget to mention. frustrated and pi*sed off at management!

So whats next?

:ugh:

[FlyingOfficerKite]

I take your point regarding the more sophisticated manner in which risk is assessed these days.

I remember when a number of high houred (20,000 hrs plus) experienced captains left my first airline the average hours per pilot plummeted. The insurance company was concerned.

I wonder how the demographics will work out for the low cost airlines when they consistently take on low houred pilots?

The Cadets of today are probably flying with relatively high houred captains still.

If this trend continues these same Cadets will become (relatively) low houred captains of tomorrow (say with 5,000 hrs) flying with 200 hr Cadets. So the total experience in the flight deck will be much reduced.

How will risk be assessed then?

The insurance companies must, to some extent, take into account the average age and experience of the pilots in any particular airline - or maybe the direct effect will be more 'incidents' of the type mentioned above due to this relative inexperience?

I suppose only time will tell - these are uncharted waters after all.

KR

FOK

[Wingswinger]

Silver knapper,

Anyone who genuinely wants to be a medic, shows the necessary commitment and more importantly makes the grade wouldn't turn down this career for flying.

I know two doctors who gave up medicine to fly professionally. I know two lawyers who gave up law to fly professionally. I've come across quite a few accountancy-trained pilots and quite a few ex-managers of this or that but I don't know any ex-dentist pilots. Will that do?

AB,

Trouble is, Doggy, that with the sort of super-rigid SOPs that have turned a skilled job involving judgement and experience into an unvariable scripted and choreographed ballet there is no room for airmanship any more.

Think about it - when was the last time you heard that word? Not for some time, I'd guess. Years probably. That is scary. Very scary. What chance do the cadets have of gainng any when its been scripted out of the job?

The skill of an airline pilot still does involve judgement and experience- great dollops of it. SOPs are a guide, quite a firm guide I grant you, and they are principally to allow a wide variety of pilots who don't know each other from Adam to get into a flight deck and operate together with no fuss and few questions. Captains can always disregard SOPs provided they have a sound and pressing reason for doing so (the safe conduct of the flight?) and the law is so framed that a captain may disregard any law or procedure whatsoever in order to secure the safety of his aircraft. That is where judgement and experience come in. Airmanship is a word I use every day in my role as a TRE and I can assure you that the CAA don't consider that it has gone out of fashion.

[Cloud Bunny]

but I don't know any ex-dentist pilots

I do!!! I also know a multi millionaire ex city investment banker, a Solicitor and my GP failed his medical!!
Don't know any heart surgeons who used to be Pilots though...hmmm:confused::confused:

But hey I work for Ryanair and even though I didn't have to pay for my TR it's clearly all my fault. :cool:

[Hahn]

Sorry, Wingswinger, but I haven´t seen airmanship for a long time! The slightest deviation from "BATO" (But All The Others..) procedures - even inside the SOPs require long and tireing discussions with the gentlemen who wants to sit in my seat. 15 minutes of discussion to persuade a guy that an a/c on takeoff is legal for example. Eng out SID into a Cb. The list is endless!
And before the pc brigade steps in: there was never ever this kind of problems with a female F/O.

[Pilot Chris]

An airline (for this example, Ryanair, but could be any) rings up an applicant and offers them a place on a TR course, paid for by said applicant.

The applicant declines.

No problem, Ryanair ring the next applicant on the list. They accept. And so on.

However, imagine applicant number 2 declines. And applicant number 3. And 4. And 5. Etc Etc.

I have been led to believe this industry is very reactionary in its recruitment, and that when pilots are needed they are needed fast. How many people have to say no before Ryanair start paying for TR's? Or perhaps extending contracts. Oh, but wait, other airlines are experiencing similar reactions and therefore they are offering permanent contracts or better terms, so Ryanair has to follow suit.

Are they able to survive for 6 months/a year/ 2 years without new applicants? Or would they be struggling after a couple of weeks? Would the situation change remarkably quickly?

It would seem that the whole industry could be saved by a few no's perhaps? But how could everyone be persuaded to say no. Should be some sort of 'union' for that.

[Wingswinger]

A slight aside - why is a doctor's renumeration so high in comaprison to ours? This is my own view, but perhaps it is because the BMC sets the standards that doctors must meet to get the job - i.e. sets them deliberately high so it restricts the rate of supply. This then allows room for doctors to say they are worth a higher pay package. Not to demean the job but handing out prescriptions and looking at moles and referring to guidance on the computer does not seem like it needs a £100k average salary.

Doctors' remuneration (apart form the few in private practice) did not hit it's current heights until one G.Brown esq. started to throw our tax money at them in the belief that he was improving the public services. Prior to that they were generally on a par with pilots. Some GPs, it is reported, earn in excess of £250k pa.

[DirectDIKAS]

On the point of cost, was chatting to a TR student at FR who stated that the fATPL had left them with £98k of debt and they were now embarking on the FR TR for 33k euros - seriously scary levels of debt considering that once they are all signed off to fly the line (assuming they get through) as a brookfield contractor, on their 9 day week (5 on 4 off) theyll be lucky to get 2-3 days flying.

There must surely be a cut off point where the overwhelming levels of debt become un-survivable?

I reckon if you survive this industry, you might just about get rid of your debts in your late 50's !!

Scary thought
DDA

[south coast]

If that is an accurate figure for the kind of debt a 'newbie' might find themselves in if they haven't been lucky enough to have parents help them out, and if salaries are 'so' low as mentioned with FR and Ezy, surely it is a cut and dry case...FO's cant physically live and service their debts on such a salary?!?

Question is, how and what are people in this situation doing?

[Bruce Wayne]

:D

Doctors' remuneration (apart form the few in private practice) did not hit it's current heights until one G.Brown esq. started to throw our tax money at them in the belief that he was improving the public services. Prior to that they were generally on a par with pilots. Some GPs, it is reported, earn in excess of £250k pa.


Healthcare is a perpetual political football. Aviation, on the other hand is not.

[BALLSOUT]

DDA, Once said cadet is on line they will soon be averaging an easy 5000 Euro per month. They will not pay any tax until they have reclaimed all of the costs of training, accomodation etc. Shouldn't take too long to be in the clear and they can still look forward to a quick command.

[Doug the Head]

@ DirectDIKAS

Some very good and valid points you made regarding levels of debt among pilots. It's ironic that this still continues, despite the current economic problems of excessive debt.

Debt seems to be a huge Ponzi/Pyramid scheme, where you constantly have to borrow more and more in order to stay ahead of the power curve. It's no wonder that many low-cost airlines have aggressively jumped onto this band wagon in order to make some cash out it's employees. I guess the money they make is not in direct terms (i.e. from the type rating itself) but more indirectly where it creates a culture of obedience (who's gonna complain about his employer if you need next month's salary to pay off your debt?) and selfishness. In other words: the perfect breeding ground for a divide and conquer strategy.

As I've repeatedly pointed out in the past, this 'paying for a job' and subsequent degradation of T&C's needs to get fought from within (i.e. by employees and unions with a backbone) during the good years, but alas, back then everybody thought I was just a nuisance and preferred to be fat, dumb and happy with debt.

Ironic and sad that in an industry where people get paid to "think ahead," people could not see this one coming and that many still don't see where this is going... :sad:

Money is debt and debt is the modern version of slavery.

If you have an hour to kill on an airport standby, then have a look at these videos:

YouTube - Money As Debt (1 of 5) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVkFb26u9g8)

YouTube - Money As Debt (2 of 5) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sanOXoWl0kc&feature=video_response)

YouTube - Money As Debt (3 of 5) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTv1fo6sKmo&feature=video_response)

YouTube - Money As Debt (4 of 5) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qicabStQkc&feature=video_response)

YouTube - Money As Debt (5 of 5) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kpSbkaD4tM&feature=video_response)

[flying headbutt]

....reclaimed the costs of training, accommodation etc.... dunno about other countries but in the UK I'd say you'll be claiming back sweet F.A. I stand to be corrected though.:= Anybody signing up for that level of debt these days needs to have a serious word with themselves.

[El Sidney]

Not sure I agree about fatigue resulting from flying with low-houred F/Os - they are keen and well trained, SOPs and the line training weed out the weak. At FR I never feel the need to worry about the competence of the guy next to me. 4 off is enough to recover from the most demanding week's work. Can't comment on the EZ temp pilots' currency or abilities.

FR vacilate between offering perm and temp contracts depending on this month's cunning plan. The value on offer is always downwards though.
I am concerned that the FR growth model is funded by every supplier to FR, subsidising its mad rush to a European monopoly position. Which other business expects to keep making consistant profits while expanding like crazy?

FR aims to be the only business in the chain to make a profit.

Remember the furore when UK started charging £10 airport pax tax.
FR championed the pax right not to be taxed. However, it was happy to charge £5 each way for using a debit card, which cost itself 40p for the transaction. FR doesn't care that £10 is charged, but it does care who gets it!

Expansion is an investment in the future, normally with a return in the future. In Ryanair's case it wants a return now!
This is akin to wanting your cake and also to eat it.

At some point FR will be effectively a monopoly on many routes or even whole regions, imagine suppliers bargaining position then?
Where Fr go, others follow, they have no real choice in the matter.
Stavros at EZ wants to retake control and make efficiency savings so as to get some dividends to fund his other entirely loss-making ventures.
Wee Willy Walsh wants to square up to crew and break them asap. If he doesn't the brand may be lost altogether.

I am waiting to see if Fr returns its much reduced cash pile to shareholders if it can't get the BOGOF deal at Boeing. What will the grand plan be then? FR is into a different ball game, no longer an expansionary model. Maybe it will even reduce in size as it dumps loss making routes.
Will it have any future need of the hordes of the Zombie Army?

As the Chinese proverb goes - We live in interesting times

[BALLSOUT]

As a Brookfielder on the new contract you are not paying tax through the UK. You will be paid in euro's and taxed in Ireland. You will be allowed to reclaim your training costs.

[Dr Eckener]

They will not pay any tax until they have reclaimed all of the costs of training, accomodation etc.
Oh really? I'd like to see the legalities behind this. If what you say is true, then there is effectively a 30% government subsidy for training FR pilots. Time for a letter to my local MP I think.

[flying headbutt]

Hmmm, interesting. So if what you're saying is correct, the Irish State is effectively paying for the training of Ryanair pilots - at a time when they're imposing massive tax hikes on the rest of the population. What a crazy world we live in.:{ Aren't state subsidies a no-no under EU legislation?

[Mikehotel152]

what you say is true, then there is effectively a 30% government subsidy for training FR pilots.

I'm guessing that all other Airlines who pay for their pilot's initial type ratings, recurrent training, hotels, meals etc etc etc write-off those costs against taxes on the basis that they are business expenses. Surely this is the same thing? These are legitimate expenses, hence they really ought to be tax-deductable? :confused:

Please explain to me why they shouldn't be: on a legal or moral basis, because I can't see why pilots who fly for Ryanair should be treated any differently to other pilots.

[bornfree]

Pilots who are self-employed, or who form a company, are allowed to claim the legitimate costs of running their businesses. This includes training costs (including TR costs), travel to a base other than their normal place of work, overnight accommodation costs, uniform, etc. This is the same in any sector of the economy - I can't see what all the fuss is about.

bf

[DirectDIKAS]

I dont know if this ATPL figure is the new standard, at the guts of 100k it seems a tad on the expensive side, I was surprised when the individual quoted such a high price. I thought he was going to say "100k all in, including the FR TR", but no that was another 33k-euros. It was indeed due to the bank of mum and dad, they must have a lot of faith!!

eye watering debt or what:{

DDA

[DirectDIKAS]

BALLSOUT, the problem is though if they dont fly they dont get paid and with FR being soo over staffed, loads of F/O's are getting more standbys than flying.

Its another earner for FR, the cadet during training and for a period on the line is effectively paying their own salary as they payed such a humongous fee in the first place. Once they properly cost FR in terms of a salary, bring on the standbys and hello another cadet and so the cycle continues.

DDA

[zerotohero]

DDA

Good point, however I am earning more money now than during line training and since going over the 500hour pay increase, 4-5k top line is pretty average.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

I have resisted taking part in this largely fruitless debate so far, but will add a few points that may be of interest to some. The very title of this thread is unhelpful as it pits pilot against pilot rather than pilot against bonus-hunting, buffoon management - the latter being present in abundance at both our companies. Not working for Ryanair, I will leave it for others to judge the state of their company - suffice to say it would be a dark day for virtually any airline pilot in a jet company if they were forced to seek employment there. Needs must, and I daresay there will shortly be a few BMI pilots forced to eat humble pie and take the leprechaun's shilling in the coming days.

Regarding easyJet, where I am in a far better position to make an accurate assessment, it is no secret that easyJet pilots are currently engaged in an increasingly difficult battle in order to settle numerous issues with our management, the most fractious being the issue of German contracts. Most of that conflict is completely unnecessary and stems from a view which says we are just lucky to have a job, and that any act of greed and stupidity shown by our management is justified in the current economic climate. Like all these things, compromise will be required on both sides, but the mantra 'crew costs are too high' should be weighed against the staggering ineptitude required to lose over £300 million pounds in the fuel hedging catastrophe. As you would imagine, no one has been disciplined or lost their job over that decision - quite the contrary in fact as big bonuses just keep coming. Nice work if you can get it. I am amused to find out that the previously-agreed loyalty bonuses are causing such distress and the fuel hedging disaster is not.

Despite this, however, we should be wary of welcoming old Stelios back like a long-lost friend. The only successful business venture that he has ever been involved with is easyJet - all the rest are a catalogue of disastrous failures. His current management team are infinitely more competent than he is, and are generally adopting the right strategy in terms of fleet expansion in the current climate. Stelios, in stark contrast, wants a 'dividend' for share holders - ie he wants to asset strip the company and remove substantial amounts of cash out the business for himself and his family. I am genuinely grateful to him for his past contributions to the company, but he is absolutely the wrong man to be in charge right now. Andy Harrison is, for the mostpart, still doing a good job and if he could just return to his original line of seeing sound business sense in looking after his employees, the world he runs would be a significantly better place.

My take on all the latest ups and downs is very straightforward - despite the clear failings of our management, we need to work together for the greater good. There are one or two people who need to leave easyJet at the earliest opportunity, but overall it is still a very good and safe place to be. BALPA are fighting a difficult battle with unreasonable people and require our total support. Nonetheless, a strike now would be a tragedy for us all and needs to be avoided, if at all possible. I am cautiously heartened by the recent communication from BALPA of 26th November which announced what is effectively a cooling-off period to provide room for 'fresh thinking'. I think that is good news, as it gives an opportunity for wise people to seek a way out of unnecesssary conflict while it is still possible. It would not be reasonable for the pilots to expect a total victory on all issues, but not should our management seek to behave like bulls in a china shop throughout their negotiations with us. Fascinatingly enough, I have come across diehard anti-BALPA pilots in the last few days who have laid down their antagonism (going back many years to Dan Air and beyone) and rejoined BALPA to show solidarity with their pilot colleagues. I trust our pilot managers will take note of how strong the feelings are among pilots. The extremely unhelpful comments from our managers about the negotiations with BALPA have been very counter-productive and only served to harden the pilots' mindset. A negotiated settlement is the way forward and I still believe, even at this late hour, that this is possible. For everyone's sake, I hope that is the case. In order to avoid easyJet becoming worse than Ryanair, we have a lot of work to do - I dare to believe that we are heading in the right direction.

[BALLSOUT]

DDA, as zerotohero has pointed out,The average pay for an F/O at FR is 4-5000 euros a month just now. I am not aware of any F/O's who are doing more standby than flying. There are a few standby's but srill enough flying to earn a good wage. The situation with staff levels is steadily sorting it' self out now with promotions. Once the spring is here with another 55 airframes, I imagine there will be few standby's and the average F/O will be probably be on about 7000 euro a month.

[stansdead]

Balls out,

Dream on. 7000Euro a month for a Ryan FO?

I have mates in FR. One is a LTC. He gets about £6000 a month.

One is just completing Command Course. Dunno what he's on.

The other is a SFO with enough hours for Command. He has 5 days of flying in December.

So, I think you are having a laugh with 7000 Euro a month my old fruit.

[leeds 65]

I would say the average FO in FR earns 4000-4500 EURO GROSS in autumn and winter.

Thats about 60hrs per month on 75.50p/h.

Loads of stby.sometimes 3 in block of 5 on.

Spring and summer maybe 75hrs so 5600 EURO GROSS.

Per year 60000 euro gross. 43000 euro Take Home NET

[leeds 65]

Oh yes BRK contractors only work 10.5 months with 1 month and 10 days unpaid leave.So possibly reduce figures slightly.

[stansdead]

Reduce your guesses of pay by about 8% if Leeds' BRK figures (1 month plus another 10 days unpaid per year) are correct....

Not exactly slightly is it.....

[BALLSOUT]

Stanstead, Not only do I have mates in Ryanair, I work there too. Your mate that's an LTC will be employed on a Ryanair contract, we are talking Brookfield here. The rates for Brookfield are much higher. the month off has no bearing on anything, we all have time off. The figures to keep in mind are the hourly rate, and the max hours you can fly in 12 months.
Recently the F/O's have been flying less than 900 hours a year, but I think with all the new aircraft comming and lots of promotions, they will probably be flying 900 a year again soon.

[Mister Geezer]

We can see that cutting costs is great (at the moment) for expanding RYR and EZ, but what was the opportunity cost of keeping their staff happy, gaining experience, allowing them to be more proficient at their work and have more time for the customers, building loyalty.

More time for staff spending time with customers??? :O We are talking about low cost operators here are we not? When did you last see an easyJet or Ryanair driver say goodbye to their customers? Then again who wants to see Terry Tracksuit and Shiela Shellsuit disembark with their lovely offsprings? :}

[Dr Eckener]

NSF, whilst I normally respect your comments, and am aware of your knowledge of life inside easy I can't help thinking that the fact that those within easy on full time contracts believing that:
overall it is still a very good and safe place to be
might contribute to the fact that there is a feeling that:
a strike now would be a tragedy for us all and needs to be avoided
When you say 'all of us', do you mean those with the best T's & C's such as yourself? Or do you mean the poorly paid cadets and those on flexi contracts as well? I hope you take my point with the best intentions, and are not planning on becoming a future Rainboe.

[captplaystation]

BALLSOUT, I would hate to have to use the term "apologist", but you paint a very rosy picture where salaries (for F/O's in particular) and the joy of being a contractor, are concerned.
Do you think you are seeing the "big picture" here? suggest a straw poll among your colleagues in other bases before you trumpet 5000€ probably 7000€, for F/0's, the latter figure is what many take each month as Capt's after tax, except the "new- or voluntarily rebased" who take even less.
Let us be honest at least, or perhaps we really should have a little poll.

OK guys, you work for Ryanair, how much baksheesh a month, do you get? in recent times Girona was 7000€ a month as Capt, if not dicked around, and no Annual Leave, after 6 years service :rolleyes:

Let the truth be out

The 150,000€ quoted on the other thread ? :hmm: . . . my @rse

[CaptainProp]

NSF -

I am cautiously heartened by the recent communication from BALPA of 26th November which announced what is effectively a cooling-off period to provide room for 'fresh thinking'. I think that is good news, as it gives an opportunity for wise people to seek a way out of unnecessary conflict while it is still possible.

Tell that to all the crew in Germany who are living in a void with no sense of security and basically without a (proper/legal?) contract from 1st of January. They have have been told for the past 10-12 months that a new contract would be negotiated and signed by the end of the year. The company deliberately delayed starting the negotiations, despite being pushed by BALPA on several occasions, again showing their lack of respect and interest in the crew and their families. This latest delay was nothing more than a way of further delaying the process and avoiding a potential strike over Christmas. Now you are left with threatening to strike in Jan/Feb. I know who'll be laughing all the way to the bank, and it will not be the easyJet pilots.

I am all for a more "diplomatic" solution to these kind of problems but in EZY this kind of approach should have been abandoned at least a year ago. Now the EZY pilots are paying the price for not doing so.

It is really sad to see where this company has gone over the past 12-18 months and I fear that this is only the beginning.

Good luck to everybody, RYR, EZY, BMI and BA. You/we will all need it.

CP

[OSCAR YANKEE]

NSF!

How about you just tell us what would make you vote for and go through with a strike ?? For about a year now, you have been advocating the "sensible" approach. What positives have come out of that you think ?
Cause I am beginning to wonder if you and I work in the same company ??

For me it has been generally downhill since march 09. We have been cheated, ignored and constantly pushed towards poorer T & C's .

Look at the "big picture" mate. Have things stayed the same ?? Have they improved ? Are they likely to stay the same, improve og get worse in the coming 1-2 years ?

Answer that question, and tell its not time to put the foot down......

[Clandestino]

OK guys, you work for Ryanair, how much baksheesh a month, do you get?

Lowcost 738 F/O no prizes for guessing

Nov £4400
Dec £0
Jan £800
Feb £2800
Mar £4800
April looking like £2400

all before I deduct tax and NI and take into account expences

no benifits apart from staff travel on large network and as much hot water as I like.

Average 2533 gross. I have no idea which base it is , though.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Ah, Norman. Articulate, moderate and gentle as usual. Deluded, of course, but very pleasant with it. You are missed.
suffice to say it would be a dark day for virtually any airline pilot in a jet company if they were forced to seek employment there
Perhaps the news that we're in advanced base talks with Global Infrastructure Partners (http://www.global-infra.com/documents/Gatwick%20Print%20Media%20Coverage.pdf), the new owners of LGW, will renew your faith in we across the sea? I, for the life of me, can't figure out why you save such venom in reserve for us paddies when your own world sounds like Auschwitz in Orange to me. But if you can manage to get your boys angried-up enough to strike in the run up to Chrissy, I'd be forever grateful. As you and I both know, Norman, there ain't nuthin' like a strike, or a great big sick-off, to rip the arse out of forward bookings.

Ryanair will happily take your customers at our new Gatwick base, and in the fullness of time, Norman, I will delight in presenting you with your harp-of-erin wings and brown spotty tie personally. Oh, and no need to worry about no unions on our side of the Irish Sea. We have IALPA, the Keystone Kops of organised labour, to hold your hand and massage your ego in ways that BLAPA, plainly, cannot.

Welcome aboard, old boy.

[zerotohero]

Good Find, fiddleing figures a little though, lets continue the trend.

Lowcost 738 F/O no prizes for guessing

Nov £4400
Dec £0
Jan £800
Feb £2800
Mar £4800
April looking like £2400
May £5300
june £4000
July £3600
august £5800
September £3000
october £5100
November £4300
December £3500

all before I deduct tax and NI and take into account expences

no benifits apart from staff travel on large network and as much hot water as I like.

Gross now £3557 and average is increaseing.

[captain_quagmire]

I have heard a rumour about gatwick as well.

Gatwick will be an interesting choice, Easyjet have remained dominant there for some time; things will soon change.......

[stakeknife]

I cannot comment on RYR conditions, at EZY the management have become very aggressive and narrow minded in their approach, the atmosphere on the flight deck is becoming ever more militant and although I understand NSF's reluctance to strike, trust me it scares the AMB more than the line pilots, a strike may have been averted over Christmas, half term in the next quarter can be just as damaging to the company or Easter after that, yes damaging to us as well but we are being pushed to it. Unfortunately the company wants to go down the BRK way and we have got to stand our ground! It's not an easy environment with so many airlines in trouble and I appreciate that a secure job is great but long term this is a battle that must be won!! If the company was losing hundreds of millions or in real danger we would be open to help 'share the pain' but with profits and continued mega Bonuses as a reward for poor fuel hedging and crew food decisions we have to stand our ground or suffer the consequences in the good years ahead!!

As for our esteemed clogged footed one, bye bye in 2010!!

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

I personally take no offence whatsoever at Leo's post. His undying and unabashed devotion to his beloved master, the arch-leprechaun himself should serve as a warning to us all about what could be round the corner if Ryanair gain dominance at Gatwick.

To all those with a negative take on my position, you are all of course entitled to such views. I have made it quite clear that I would support BALPA unequivocally in any strike. Nonetheless, I strongly believe that a strike is in no one's interests and is definitely avoidable. As Leo so alarmingly points out, talk of strikes would be disastrous for forward bookings and this is not the way forward. All easyJet pilots will have received a very interesting personal e-mail from Andy Harrison today, and without divulging the details on a public forum we should give credit where credit is due. Can you imgaine Michael O'Leary ever sending such an e-mail to his pilots? I don't think so. I personally interpret this e-mail as an admission of past failings and a genuine desire to work together. We could be churlish and throw it back in his face - to do such a thing would, in my judgement, be foolish in the extreme. As I have said repeatedly, we are not going to get what we want in total, but we are going to claw back some of the lost ground. I find myself agreeing with significant parts of AH's logic and am encouraged at his willingness to recognise his part in the breakdown in communication that has occurred. He knows that we simply have to work together and so, frankly, should we. We have a number of pressing issues, and I in no way want to underestimate how big these are.

I still do not understand why our crew costs are going up - it just makes no sense to me. Added to that the biggest problem we face is the staggering loss in fuel hedging. I am appalled at the treatment of our cabin crew and junior pilots on temporary contracts. These issues have to be addressed. Nonetheless, we should not in any way underestimate the pressures on our business and make this work. All I ask from our management is that they are reasonable - if they continue down a route of 'in-yer-face' attacks on all of our futures we will have a disaster. We nonetheless should embrace the conciliatory words of Andy Harrison and only consider strike action a last resort. Maybe at last he is seeing the value of working with us rather than against us - if he is then we need to encourage that at every opportunity.

[Doug the Head]

I still do not understand why our crew costs are going up - it just makes no sense to me. Added to that the biggest problem we face is the staggering loss in fuel hedging. I am appalled at the treatment of our cabin crew and junior pilots on temporary contracts. These issues have to be addressed. Nonetheless, we should not in any way underestimate the pressures on our business and make this work. All I ask from our management is that they are reasonable - if they continue down a route of 'in-yer-face' attacks on all of our futures we will have a disaster.Norman, the fundamental problem with any low-cost airlines (FR or EZ: same sh!t different name) is that "treating crews reasonable" does not fit into the business plan. Which part of "low" and "cost" don't you understand? Salaries are costs and therefore it's a race to the bottom, something I've been warning about for years!

Ask yourself, why should any manager treat current crews "reasonable" if they can hire the next self-funded type rating candidate to replace these expensive but 'reasonable' moaners and reward himself with a fat bonus on top of it all?

You can beat around the bush forever and try to stick your head in the sand with your moderate and kind words and actions, but nobody will automatically treat you reasonable in this world. You/we (i.e. the crews) have to fight for it.

Respect is earned, it's not automatically given by a nice management because they want to be reasonable.

Of course, now it's one minute to twelve to start earning respect, and in a recession this is next to impossible. That point of no return was passed a few years ago I'm afraid... :sad:

[Mister Geezer]

It seems as if Norman is viewing the glass as half full which is always a commendable approach to take. However I get the feeling from other posts from easyJet crew that they are certainly viewing the glass as being half empty.

I feel that Doug made a nice concise post. He mentioned that respect has to be earned which is very true but I fail to see what the incentive is for management in any low cost airline to treat their crew with respect. The aspects of loyalty, job satisfaction and dedication seem to hold little interest with management nowadays. An old acquaintance of mine who gladly accepted a LHS on inferior Ts and Cs and the CTC Flexicrew 'farce' are great examples.

Is this potential threat of industrial action the first of more to come? As an outsider, it seems that this initial erosion of Ts and Cs is perhaps just the 'tip of the iceberg'.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Hi Doug. I am in the process of drafting a reply to AH and will send it shortly. I believe that he is now recognising that there is sound business sense in working with your employees rather than working against them. I am no more excited than you are about what has happened at easyJet in recent days. In no particular order there are several issues that we must address:

1. The disgraceful treatment of our CTC cadets by the company.
2. Temporary commands instead of the part-year 75/25 deal promised.
3. Return of permanent contracts.
4. The German Contract Issue.
5. Sector pay for ultra-long flights.
6. Crew food.
7. The disgraceful treatment of cabin crew and the misuse of temporary contracts.
8. The confrontational attitude of our Flight Ops Director.
9. The establishment of a clear end game. Where do the company actually want these cuts to lead? What would satisfy them?
10. Continual rostering abuses.
11. Training Captain contracts.

Nonetheless, as I listen to the more extreme views of some of our pilots, I see little to choose between them and our Flt Ops Director. We have to ask what we want. Do we want 'blood on the carpet' or 'heads on poles'? What is to be gained by that? I see the fresh shoots of a willingness to re-engage in credible and sensible discussion. That needs to be encouraged as it is vital the pilots are seen as people the company can deal with. As I have said on several occasions, I back our union 100%. If a strike comes I will back it, but that is very premature in view of the clear willingness of the company to take a step back from the brink. We need to open this small window of opportunity as wide as we can. Are we dealing with reasonable people? Probably not. But we are dealing with people who realise that we need to work together at last. BALPA have done a fantastic job in facing down the company - who are wisely reconsidering their position. We in turn would be wise to reconsider ours in response. There are a number of contributors on here who would only be happy if all the pilots were gathered outside Hangar 89 in donkey jackets, standing in freezing conditions over lit fires shouting abuse at office workers within. Is that where we really want to be? Victory for me is dialogue with our managers to find a way forward that brings success to easyJet, and a credible career path to the pilots and cabin crew that who make it run. Mister Geezer has alluded to there being no managment incentive to treat their crews with respect. That is absolutely not the case as has been seen here. What gives them incentive is a strong pilot union sitting across the table from them making it clear that if they continue to be dorks they will have a strike on their hands. The real skill, however, is turning that fighting position into concrete results that bring change. That is where we are at the moment, and only time will tell if we can achieve victories in the above-mentioned areas. I dare to believe we may yet do so.

[olster]

NSF -a thoughtful(as usual) and constructive post.However,it has to be said unfortunately that easyJet has never treated the pilots with much respect and we used to work in a parallel universe to ensure that the aircraft were operated correctly and professionally -which they were.It is amazing that only now the directors might feel that it is constructive to work with the employees and cynically I can only believe that share price/profit would be the motive.

[Elephant and Castle]

NSF can you point out any concrete actions that AH has taken that show any evidence of change? Unfortunately is all words, words, words

[HundredPercentPlease]

NSF,

In point 4 in your email, can you stress the B scale. I believe that that is the beginning of the end, and will be applied to anyone who moves seat, or base (voluntary or otherwise) until it is the prevalent scale.

[one post only!]

Norman, good list. Can I make one addition to the list please:

12) FO loyalty bonus

A few people are realising that as the time to command lengthens it is going to become much more important! Investing in people and all that.........

[OSCAR YANKEE]

NSF. You want dialogue and reasonable relations.

I am sorry to break this to you.

Your opponent is not interested...... He wants a deal that is as cheap as possible, in order to keep the wheels turning.

Its a fine list you have. I predict by may 2010, it will be longer, not shorter.

How long does it have to get, before you see the light and put your foot down ?

[flying headbutt]

The point is that we aren't really asking for anything "Extra' per se. Most people would be happy to be left alone to do their job, without having the terms and conditions that they signed up for continually assaulted. Stop this management obsession to drive our profession to the point where we are little more than cheap labour that turns up at gates each day hoping for a days work.

Stop the 'Ruinairisation' of the company and instead take a leaf out of the Southwest Airlines book of management. Go on management, be a rebel, buck the trend and treat people how you'd like to be treated youself and you may be pleasantly surprised at the results. It's not that hard for flips sake!:ugh:

[Doug the Head]

Dear Norman,

Despite your, obviously, good intentions in writing a long winded email to Andy, but perhaps it's better to first have a cup of strong coffee to help you wake up.

Can't you see the "good cop, bad cop" game going on? Good ol' Andy speaking nice conciliatory words while his henchmen are cracking the whip.

This game has been going on long before you joined (Ray Webster anyone!?) and will continue long after you've retired unless people decide to grow a backbone and start earning some respect!

Sure, there's a time to be pragmatic and there's a time to be firm, but there's never a time to be naive and gullible...

p.s. speaking about broken promises, low moral and shattered dreams, make sure you copy in Ray when you email Andy! I'm sure he'll appreciate your comments... :ugh:

[El Sidney]

I thought that the fight at easyJet had been fought a couple of years ago when a strike was averted and Ts & Cs agreed.
easyJet are going to have to raise their game if they want to achieve the same standard of compliance from crews, with the attendant misery and resignation.
Fr have achieved great success by their 'divide and rule' tactics over the last few years, playing off Base against unprofitable Base, whilst pumping out the bollox that we are the best paid in Europe.
Now, we at FR are on the back foot, it has become easy for them to achieve a succession of pay cuts & freezes. Interestingly, even when we bent over and took it, and agreed cuts to pay etc in the 2009 deal, they still went ahead and had a freeze in the summer, which was the threat to make us compliant in this first place.
There will be no end to the erosion of Ts & Cs, and once agreed, deals can be broken and if you don't like it you can always sue them - Ho Ho
I hope easyJet don't go the appeasement path that we have chosen at FR.

[olster]

I always found it amusing during my tenure with the orange mob that somehow they are cuddlier than the Ryans across the Irish Sea.At least with the latter you may have a vague notion that industrial relations were not the priority versus profitability.The orangistas used to invoke,and probably still do the impression that they were more pc,right -on and in the grand tradition of that failed enterprise New Labour one had to be 'orange' which implied 'on message'.I found the whole orange culture rather creepy and cultish and only masked the greed of the managers of that era who mopped up bonuses and shares at a disproportionate amount compared to the pilot community.

I doubt whether that much has changed and in parallel with the rest of the industry there appears to be a concerted effort to drive pilot renumeration towards their favourite comparison,that of the bus driver.Now I do not want to be immodest or unrealistic but the time,effort,study,disruption to circadian rythm and intellect to carry out the job is worth more than that.The voguish,management jibe is that we preside over a set of automatics that essentially fly the aircraft for us.This,as we know is not true as automation/fmc and so on has complicated our tasks in many areas.

My view is that the pilots at easy need to play hard ball to get the results they need.Easy to say from the sidelines I guess.

atb

[stakeknife]

Guys, Southwest management style is a pipe dream on this side of the low cost pond!! The ONLY thing the management are concerned for is the threat of industrial action from the pilots. I don't for one second suggest that the EZY Pilots have any desire to strike but all that I work with are willing to if that is what it takes. Bottom line is that the AMB are only interested in the short term and they will do what they can get away with, Andy H's email started off apologetic yet ended with more lies. Didn't impress me and didn't impress anyone else I know, the board have done a lot to damage pilot engagement and it will take a lot to re build that trust. Rem without the pilots unity this year we would now have no crew food, no tea/coffee or water and be paying for your pass and car park, oh, and prob a pay cut to. hmmmm, Andy h has showed his true colours and it will not be forgotten.

[Mister Geezer]

Mister Geezer has alluded to there being no managment incentive to treat their crews with respect. That is absolutely not the case as has been seen here. What gives them incentive is a strong pilot union sitting across the table from them making it clear that if they continue to be dorks they will have a strike on their hands. The real skill, however, is turning that fighting position into concrete results that bring change. That is where we are at the moment, and only time will tell if we can achieve victories in the above-mentioned areas. I dare to believe we may yet do so.

Having a strong pilot union in the form of BALPA across the table will act as an obstacle to management to initiate any 'foul play'. However this is offset to the same extent by the fact that there will always be people who will gladly accept a Command or indeed a Right Hand Seat on poorer conditions. You only need a handful of 'volunteers' to accept the inferior deal and the new benchmark has been set. The latter forms a very weak union amongst crews and that is far more of a pressing issue. It is far harder to resolve the rot after it has started.

Even if BALPA come to the table and strike action is averted, does that instantly mean that further reductions in Ts and Cs will not be attempted by management? Such an approach in any airline can only be described as being short sighted. Especially so in easyJet, when I consider the rather 'agressive' cost cutting plans that are conveyed to me by friends who are in the company.

[f/spninx]

German Easyjet crews already on strike


Berlin - A two-hour strike Thursday by Easyjet flight deck and cabin staff at Berlin's Schoenefeld Airport disrupted flights to Rome, London and other European cities, airport staff said.
The German staff are demanding that the company recognize a workers' council incorporated under German law. British-based Easyjet refuses to deal the panel representing 300 Germans, according to the ver.di trade union.
Easyjet criticized the protest, saying it was in talks on the subject and would be offering its staff German employment contracts soon. Some 50 staff took part in the stoppage, which ended at 9 am Central European time (0800 GMT).


Read more: Berlin flights to Rome and other cities hit by Easyjet strike - Monsters and Critics (http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/business/news/article_1516799.php/Berlin-flights-to-Rome-and-other-cities-hit-by-Easyjet-strike?#ixzz0YfQIOnSn)

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

That is indeed the case and will no doubt serve to concentrate the minds of people at Hangar 89. Coincidentally, I was at Luton yesterday and there is clearly a desire at the highest level to lay down the confrontational tactics of the past. I do not know the fine detail of the German contract offer but according to one of their Trianing Captains it gives him personally a 30% pay cut and introduces a payscale for new captains that is less than the current pay for First Officers! As I say, I cannot comment on the specifics because I do not know them, but if that is the case then clearly it is unacceptable. Nonetheless, sooner or later we must all talk. It is vital for the whole network to support the German crews in a legitimate dispute, but equally the days of the massive salaries in Berlin are grinding to a halt. By 'massive salaries' I mean the enviable but completely non-sustainable tax arrangements of the past whereby you paid tax nowhere! As I have said on numerous occasions, we have to choose our battles and this may be one of the battles of choice once we know the details. Listening to a couple of very senior managers yesterday I remain of the view that there is a genuine desire to re-engage with us and a real desire to sort out the difficulties. Are they all cuddly and nice to furry animals? Probably not. Neither are they cut-throat scum trying to murder our wives and abduct our children. In the final analysis they are the people with whom we must deal and this is the time to engage with them. I have no doubt that the number one issue on the minds of senior managers at easyJet this morning is how to deal with this Berlin dispute and how to prevent escalation. We too should be having exactly the same thoughts.

[flying headbutt]

Any euro contract must be comparable to the French/Italian/Spanish contracts and that must apply to the current SXF based crews, and, just as importantly to anyone who finds themselves there in the future. No No No to the introduction of B or C scale contracts. We must safeguard ALL of our futures. Anyone thinking of getting a command at EZY, this could define your remuneration for a long time to come. Please do not sell yourselves short:=

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Thank god there are some easyjet crew willing to stand up to the B-S we are receiving from the AMB. Well done Berlin colleagues. A 2 hour strike may well cause our pax a bit of disruption, which is unfortunate, but it will also make AH and his vile bunch of hatchet men realise that as long as we act collectively, we can cause the airline to grind to a halt. It just takes a bit of courage because we have a cold war on our hands at the moment. They don't believe we will, but will be extremely scared that we just might - if we get our act together.

A union backed strike would see the position of several figures at the top of our empire fall under close scrutiny I would warrant, and the very idea of us acting as a group will be causing them serious pause for thought. It is the real and proper threat of industrial action that will help us win this battle.

Obviously, there will be more conflict ahead, but if we lose this one..........

[captain_quagmire]

A union backed strike would see the position of several figures at the top of our empire fall under close scrutiny I would warrant, and the very idea of us acting as a group will be causing them serious pause for thought. It is the real and proper threat of industrial action that will help us win this battle.


I think gaining a yes vote for IA would put massive pressure on the management as they would see bookings plummet just from this.

I would deem it a very unwise move to actually carry out a large scale strike though;

A. you would have zero public support
B. The company is not a monopoly, therefore carriers like FR would be quick to grab customers that EZY would never gain back.

Good luck to you lot though, well done for standing up for yourselves and i hope this germany strike has set the ball rolling for an agreement to be reached before things turn Industrial:)

[THE POINTY END]

Having spent a number of years working for Ryanair in the past, I feel as if I'm back there again wearing a different colour. The rot is definitely setting in here at EZY. During the FR days, there were constant rumours of mass sickness etc to make the company listen. Nothing ever materialised, and the results of no action through fear and intimidation speak for themselves. Ryanair have set the lowest bench mark in the industry and every other airline seems to be be in a race to get down there with them.
I've never been a union guy, but it's gonna be a fine line with industrial action to protect the integrity of our position and possibly putting our jobs at risk by disrupting the service.
What I find extremely insulting is that despite our efforts to reduce costs and do our bit for the company. They don't think twice in spending thousands of pounds on 'strategy consultants' to advise them on how to be like Ryanair.
quote:-
Reducing employment costs is only possible if EZY relaxes some of the constraints imposed upon it, eg.
-Local contracts:
contracting crew in lower social security countries.
-Standardised terms and conditions for crew
-De-unionising pilots through use of contracting structures (such as RYR's Brookfield contract) to enable differential pay scales and individually negotiated terms and conditions.
If this is the future, heaven help us.

[Viking101]

NSF

I love your list; its all true and correct.

However, do not expect that the airline management will play true cards, and they will not have the best intention for working class people- its only about the money and contracts...

:suspect:

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Viking101 - I have no doubt that we are dealing with people who are tricky and we must not be unwary. Nonetheless I do believe this is winnable without a strike. I disagree, incidentally, with the view that we should not accept a German contract less than the other European ones. Those contracts are living examples of a combination of a top union and amazing good fortune whereby the deals were done with a high Euro. They pay way more than the Uk contract and I would expect the German contract to be broadly in line with the UK one. As I say, I don't yet know enough to judge how good or bad the offer is. I want to see solutions like everyone else and i believe we will do so.

[Speevy]

NSF, I have lot of respect for you,but you are getting it all wrong about the continantal contract:

The pay is good because the market pays like that!


In Italy, any pilot that would be working for an airline with 20 and plus aircraft would take home as much as me if not more!

The German contract doesn't need to be in line with the UK, it needs to be in line with the local market!

Get your fact straight next time before you discuss about continental contracts..

Speevy

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Speevy - you worry about your 'facts' and I will worry about mine. The Italian contract is fantastic and that is why there is a vast queue of people trying to get there - that is a fact. A contract like that will not happen in Germany and if you delude yourself it will then you will be massively disappointed. Sorry, but that is the harsh fact of this situation.

[Tim Thames]

Hi Norman,

I PM-ed you the German contract proposal.
Look forward to your comments, preferably on the easyJet forum.

Kind regards,

Tim

[Elephant and Castle]

Norman take your blinkers off for a moment. The fact that continental contracts looks good to you from a Pound based perspective is completely irrelevant. Not long ago no one wanted to sign a European contract because they simply paid less than a UK one at the prevailing rate at the time. The move on the exchange rate has not changed the cost of living in France, Italy Germany or Spain. It would be great if we could choose the currency where we earn our salary and the currency where we spend it but alas most of us earn and spend in the same currency. Large currency exchange moves are completely irrelevant to the vast majority of us although we all love to imagine how rich we would be if only we could spend our pounds in Bangladesh.

The fact is that easyJet is very much reaping the benefits of the strong Euro. In Berlin our ticket revenue is in Euros and therefore I see no reason whatever for the pay of german crews to be tied to the relative exchange rate of the pound.

I take it that following your logic once the pound / euro rate goes the other way (as it will surely do) all pay in the continent should be increased?

I am completely bemused that you seem to be defending the introduction of a B scale. I will bet any money that if you base ever closed and you got forcefully "reduncated" to Germany with the pound back at the historical level of 1.5 to the Euro you would be very much of a diferent opinion.

[flying headbutt]

Actually the possibility of relocating to Rome on an Italian contract was not that popular during the 90 day consultation - Fact. There certainly wasn't a stampede. Also, a German contract at parity with the UK contract with the current exchange rate suddenly won't look so clever if sterling ever recovers. I'm starting to get the impression that there are way too many people in the bigger bases sitting fat dumb and happy thinking this isn't going to affect them. Wrong, it's only a matter of time. Apathy is not our friend here. The new German contract has a totally different structure to the present EZY contracts, ie, low basic with the rest made up in sector pay - sound familiar? Either we fight this assault together or eventually we're all screwed. Unfortunately, in this climate an escape tunnel is not really an option otherwise the way things are shaping up, I think I'd already be digging.:eek:

[Doug the Head]

Speevy - you worry about your 'facts' and I will worry about mine. The Italian contract is fantastic and that is why there is a vast queue of people trying to get there - that is a fact. A contract like that will not happen in Germany and if you delude yourself it will then you will be massively disappointed. Sorry, but that is the harsh fact of this situation.Norman, I think I've asked you before [perhaps in the 'Trojan Horse discussion' about giving management access to the private forum (a clear tactical blunder of the first order... :rolleyes:)] but with statements like these I will ask you again: which side are you really on?

One thing I've noticed is that you're very good at; procrastinating, trying to 'see the other side' and hiding behind some vague ideology of 'let's all talk, wear pink/orange glasses, work together and be happy forever after' rhetoric whenever the proverbial sh!t hits the fan.

I've also noticed that you are considerably less talented in; being consistent, straightforward, identifying problems and possessing any situational awareness whatsoever to where all this is leading, not just for an individual company but also with regards to the entire aviation profession/industry.

Are you a pilot fighting against the demise of T&C's in this entire industry, or are you merely a management pawn facilitating the divide and conquer strategy? Your posts confuse me, please elaborate...

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Tim - thanks for that. On first glance it does not look good but will read the PDF and comment more on the private forum. Am on the iPhone just now and can't look at it until Tuesday.

Doug - your constant appearances wherever I post to attack me are frankly increasingly amusing. It reminds me of Inspector Clueseau's sidekick, Kato, appearing out of fridges and from behind doors! Have all the insults you want -you need some arguments other than we are all ruined and I am to blame! What would Doug's world look like? EasyJet bankrupt so you could say you told us so? A year of strikes? Andy Harrison resigning along with the whole AMB? Presumably he would be replaced by Rupert the Bear or someone similar who just loves pilots and wants to give them loads of dosh. Tell me your plan - not what you would not do, but what you would actually do if it was all down to you. At the risk of repeating myself, I back BALPA 100% and if a strike comes I will be there long before you. Nonetheless, a strike is not an end in itself but a mechanism for achieving the company's ear. We seem to have that so what now Maestro?

[Speevy]

you worry about your 'facts' and I will worry about mine.

Ok then.

NSF, you are indeed disappointing me on this one..

Do some research and you will see that the italian contract is not as great as you think compared to the rest of the market.

There a queue to come down to Italy?

In my opinion:

1)a lot of guys are fed up with UK.

2)a lot of guys do the mistake to use the current exchange rate, I must agree with Elephant in the Castle, our expenses remained the same during the last two years.

NSF the day you want to be constructive about it and discuss it with me, PM or email me (I am quite sure you know who I am anyway or ask WWW) and I will send you all the datas I have collected about Italy and the local marke.

In the mean time..

Good luck

Speevy

[Orange Peel]

NSF, I've enjoyed reading your posts over the last few years, always an interesting point of view and without fail a complete 180 degree swing in your view towards the end!

I find it interesting that you are quick to jump in on the Aer Lingus/Astreus thread about blatant union busting tactics with cheap labour yet you propose the same thing for our German colleagues, bizarre!? Are there two Norman Stanley Fletchers?!

My take on it is that the German colleagues need pay based on local competitors with a slant on our other euro contracts. From BALPA I understand the company has completely ignored the benchmarking data and is not interested in our other euro contracts.

It matters not what the pound/euro does. If we worked for an Ethiopian airline but based in the UK would you accept a contract based on Ethiopian rates of pay? I don't think so. Why do you think that our German colleagues should accept a contract based on UK pay when the exchange rate is at an all time low. They earn euros and they spend euros, exchange rates matter little to them. They need a salary in line with other local competitors and easyjet's euro contracts.

Based on the current easyjet offer if the euro weakened back to it's historical average of 1.5 to the £ using your logic would it not then be reasonable for the company to turn to the UK workforce and then say you are too expensive compared to your German colleagues you must all take a paycut?

I find your position bizarre. Discuss.

[macdo]

This thread really mirrors all the angst amoungst pilots today, things are getting worse across the board and have done so for a few years now. However, over my 25 years in the industry, I have seen the pendulum swing both ways. As a hard up Flying Instructor, I was appalled to hear of FI's paying flying clubs to sit in the Left hand seat (pay to fly A320 FOs wind me up just as much), and when I got my IR there were 180 unemployed 737 drivers on the the books at the Professional Pilots Register at LGW! So the only hope was to buy a turbo-prop rating and try to sell myself! OOPS spot the hypocrite! Well, lets face it, we all are when the chips are down.
So at the moment, everything is **HITE, but it will change. Cast your mind back to 1999-2001, everything was booming and the airlines couldn't recruit crew fast enough, on proper T&C's too. That time will return again, no doubt in a slightly modifeid form, but return it will. What is imperative IMHO is that those of us on good T&Cs absolutely protect them (nod to BALPA here) so that when times get good again, T&C's are brought up again to the highest possible level.
With regard to Pay to Fly cadets, even this has had its day in the more reputable airlines. Where I am, word is that future cadets will go to a prop operator for a time before joining the jet fleet. I suspect that 3 damaged aircraft in 3 years have given the board senior management (when they finally found out about it) a few sleepless nights!! But don't think that cadets are going to disappear, the old self - improver route is effectively dead, and the RAF/NAVY/AAC ranks are much smaller than they were, so the throughput of retirees is much reduced. In-House cadetships are the very antithesis of cost control for modern management, so outsourced cadets it must be!! Ah, only afew years to retirement, thank God.

[stakeknife]

As a Uk EZY pilot, I agree that the German contract must be to the local standard. The benchmark should be somewhere between Air Berlin and Lufty. There is a danger that UK pilots will think of the exchange rate and play into the managements plan of divide and conquer!! Lets support our German based pilots or we will all pay the price in the long term.

I do know the Management are still not engaging with BALPA and playing games so do not fall for the charm offensive, words mean very little if they are not backed up with actions and the company has continually fallen short in the latter!

[orangedriver]

Speevy - you worry about your 'facts' and I will worry about mine. The Italian contract is fantastic and that is why there is a vast queue of people trying to get there - that is a fact. A contract like that will not happen in Germany and if you delude yourself it will then you will be massively disappointed. Sorry, but that is the harsh fact of this situation.

Do you know how the pilots (BALPA) came up with the numbers presented to the company? If not, speak to someone who knows before you make statements like the one you did. Please feel free to PM me for the information if you can't get it from other sources.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

stakeknife - be under no doubt of my intention to support our German colleagues. I also totally agree with benchmarking against local conditions - that does not mean Italian or Spanish contracts. It is critical that we use this current window of opportunity to engage with the company or it will escalate out of control very quickly. My own view is that there will be another throw of the dice in the form of a new offer on German Contacts. The company know how unacceptable the current offer is and that feelings are running high. If not I fear industrial action may be inevitable. I simply do not believe the company can allow the current dissatisfaction spread throughout all bases and they will back down to some extent - the question is how much? BALPA have my complete support and will no doubt be waiting to see the company's next move. Like I have said all along, there has to be a plan and I still believe a compromise is possible that is acceptable to all. That is why I do not believe the German contract issue is the sticking point - we will win that one. The real problem lies in the numerous other little niggles which when taken together makes us nibbled to death by ducks. That is why any compromise solution to the German contract must consider all these other issues. The next few days will be very interesting indeed.

[Caudillo]

That is why any compromise solution to the German contract must consider all these other issues. The next few days will be very interesting indeed.

What they'll be is predictable. In the Easyjet Grand National (Luton, 3.30pm, £1000/month) my money is on Scaredy-Cat.

By no means a horse amongst the first-class thoroughbreds of the field, he is from lower-grade stock, resulting in a somewhat neurotic, passive and even grateful nature. As with all geldings, his castration soon after joining his present stable has accentuated his natural qualities, helping him become calmer and better-behaved, making the animal quieter, gentler and potentially more suitable as an everyday working animal. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelding)

Given his complete lack of balls, over the last couple of seasons he has demonstrated a disappointing attitude, often laying down and rolling over before the race has passed the first furlong. He's recently been run with blinkers in an effort to prevent distraction from the fact he's been often been ridden backwards, allowing him to be grateful that he has been given a race at all.

500-1 no hoper.

What'll happen? They'll increase the German contract a bit, it'll still be pretty **** by most standards. The rest of the stuff, Yes We Really Must deal with it yes of course, but there's the deadline coming by which we've got to get this contract signed off. It's the German law you see. It's only a few weeks away, if we can't agree to just this increase we'll be forced to revert to the original offer. Now given that glaciers melt faster than the other issues will take to be slow-played, plus the fact you'll be so grateful that you've wrung an illusory increase (but big kudos for not biting at a first offer for once) and that if you start arguing, you're worried you'll lose this increase-it's-not-so-bad-after-all-there-is-a-recession-and-we're-lucky-to-have-jobs, you'll bite their hands off. Naturally, you'll say you'll be back right away to deal with these other issues. They'll be kicked far into the long grass, and you'll have taken another step towards nudging your "career" to where your pension currently resides in the toilet bowl. I'll say well done chaps and everyone can go home (or do to a budget airport hotel on an industrial estate) relieved the victory has been snatched from the jaws of defeat.

Willing to put money on this, if you've got any left.

[captplaystation]

Caudillo, speaking as an outsider in all of this, but not I would add in the "low-cost" minefield, I have to say you are probably right.

Norman, I respect, and always derive insight from, reading your posts. I would refute any suggestion that you are on "the other side" or have even dipped a toe in the other camp. What I would say though, is that you give the impression of being too reasonable with those who are incapable of being reasonable back to you. Unfortunately offering a handshake to a greedy callous self serving beast more often results in it being bitten off than shaken.
Regretably, whilst you counsel reasonable behaviour and tolerance, I fear you will receive nothing of the sort from your masters.
Any attempt at reasonableness on your part will be seen as a sign of weakness/meekness, and they will mistakendly scent that you are unwilling to take the chance of a resultant bloodbath.
The only solution when dealing with b@stards is to behave like one too.
You must leave the greedy spineless sh1ts, whose only interest is in lining their grubby little pockets with substantial bonuses earned on your back (and even more so the backs of your pitiful Cadets) in no doubt whatsoever that this is end-game, and if there is nowt for you, there sure as hell will be nowt for them.
Regretably this is the only language their money-grabbing little mind-set understands.
Be reasonable with reasonable people, but you know as well as I do, these guys are just Ryanair-Management wannabees. For gods sake stop the rot before it's too late, or look at yellow/blue to see your future orange fate :eek:.
The next few days will be important for Easy, Gentlemen, please verify your b@lls are in place, time to use them, or forever to repent, & regret that you didn't.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Be of no doubt, our balls are in place (as I am sure NSF's are), but we do this in a very British way. And this way, if you look at British history over the last century, is normally quite successful.

You firstly have to allow the company to react, before you hit them. Here in the UK we consider it impolite and counter-productive to run up to someone and hit them when they are not looking. It's likely to make things worse.

So, we (via Balpa) are laying out our stall. Slowly and carefully we explain our position. And what exactly we will do if nothing is done.

Hopefully then the company will realise that changes are needed, and we can progress without shooting ourselves in the feet.

But if not, then a small shot in the foot may be better than facing the firing squad. When backed into a corner, we believe we fight the hardest.

[Caudillo]

All balls, yet no balls.

What you'll do if nothing is done will be avoided, because something will be done.

You'll be thrown a bit of a sop and put under pressure to accept due to external factors. You'll be given the hard sell and you'll sign.

You have no appetite to go on strike, you'll be secretly relieved that you've been offered an apparent concession and a way out of action.

The other stuff isn't so bad, it'd be nice to have but let's face, it it's going to affect others more than you anyway so is it really worth it, especially in this climate? Ooooh.. naah.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Thanks for guessing my/our state of mind.

I can assure you, you are quite wrong on all counts.

[totto70]

I agree with 100% we are not taking any more of this crap coming out of management. A lot of us are not British and we find it very strange how BALPA can put up with all this rubbish, But fair enough i do drive on the left side of the road like everyone else otherwise it would be messy:}.

They only have to say the word and let the herd loose and then we will see what happens. There is lot of EZY people that have had more than enough:E.

Every pilot should say a little prayer before bedtime that BALPA is successful in this fight because it will affect everyone from now until eternity. If we loose this fight we will have 1 orange and 1 green RYR setting the industry standards.......

[HundredPercentPlease]

Totto, indeed.

Lessons were learned by all parties (especially the "I don't care because it won't happen to me" lot) over the DTM closure.

Now we see the formation of a plan to destroy the job for all, and the waves are high and far-reaching.

But as NSF says, we have to go through a process first. And there is a chance that our managers have seriously mis-judged the situation and are prepared to cancel the plan.

[Viking101]

I hope indeed that the SXF happening will come to UK.

Although we drive on the "other" side of the road, these horrible propositions from the company must not go through. We need to stand firm against it all.

We must dare to say "we do not accept this". As I have written before, we cant afford not to take the step to strike if that would be needed.

Yes, process needs to be followed. Problem is that the legislation is tricky and not really made to the benefit for employees- more towards the employer sad enough...

:{

[bloggs2]

Appeasement - look it up Appeasement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement)

It is time to try something else, because this s#%t won't stop.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

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[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Caudillo - although I do not agree with a single word you say, your post is one of the best I have read in ages. It really made me roar with laughter - excellent stuff.

At the risk of repeating myself, I am 100% for BALPA and will back any call to arms 100%. I am, however, able to see beyond the end of my nose and a strike is to be avoided if at all possible. That is not weakness - it is the use of common sense. Out Flt Ops Director is a completely unreasonable individual who would shoot his own grandmother to save money on her food bill. I am under no illusion as to what we are dealing with. If we are to strike, and I accept that may be where we are heading, then we have to gain something. It would be so much easier to gain that something by other means.

The tragedy here is that easyJet had a clear choice of directions with regard to industrial relations - the Southwest Airlines model or the Ryanair model. Alas, for reasons that escape me, the have embraced the Ryanair model hook, lone and sinker. Our big advantage compared to Ryanair is our level of unionisation. As others here have alluded to, the sleeping giant is slowly but surely awakening and will win in the end. For all my reluctance to get into a full blown conflict, I am completely prepared to do so for the greater good of stopping the rot. I still hope that the next few days will lbring forth a compromise to prevent the headlong rush into industrial warfare. Time will tell.

[BusBoy]

Well said, as always, NSF

I am a long standing non-BALPA member due to a previous dispute resolution. However, I am swallowing my pride and rejoining for the forthcoming discussions. We need to be strong

[The Real Slim Shady]

OK BusBoy, but on your head be it: be prepared for yet another let down.

[Finman2]

reasons that escape me, the have embraced the Ryanair model hook, lone and sinker.

How naive NSF!

Does the name Warwick Brady mean nothing to you!

[captplaystation]

Slim,
What an entirely predictable and wholly futile posting.
Don't let it trouble you, as it ain't gonna happen anytime soon in Ryanair, as the damp f@rt attempt (so beloved by Leo) at recognition proved earlier this year, but. . . strangely enough , there is another way other than "I'm all right jack" and being a management mouth-piece.
If the guys in Easy have anything left worth fighting for, it's because they got their snouts out of the LTC/TRI/TRE/IRE/BaseCapt trough and acted collectively in the past. An alien concept to you I know, and probably a waste of time @ FR anyhow, but it can & has worked for them in the past, so they should be encouraged to protect what they achieved,or do you prefer everyone else is dragged into the gutter that is "industrial relations" (what a joke ? ) where you are.
Just because you are happy to be totally subservient and accept whatever crumbs fall from the table, doesn't give you the right to deride other, perhaps slightly higher aiming, attempts at "industrial relations".
Don't forget, relations normally equate to two way traffic, within BALPA/ Easy at least there is still a modicum of that in place, a concept long long forgoten, if indeed it ever existed, in the "White House" n'est pas ?

[The Real Slim Shady]

Playstation, would that be the same BALPA that stuffed the baseball bat up the bmi jacksy when they agreed to let regional 145s operate from LHR in spite of a scope agreement?

The" two way" negotiations that, now, are coming back to bite them with the redundancy programme at mainline?

[captplaystation]

BALPA are no way close to perfect, and indeed are only as good as the CC that the members have elected (which depends on who volunteers, and their motivation. In the past in BMI for instance, BALPA rep = trainee mangement stooge, which somewhat negated any benefits ) However, apart from some appalling oversights (the Cadet situation springs to mind ) they seem, in Easy at least,to have helped mitigate against previous agreements being run over rough-shod, as per Ryanair.
For this alone, I would suggest you don't dismiss them out of hand.
Finally, they have only the strength of their members resolve (Ooer! :eek: ) as a weapon, which is where they failed miserably in FR, but at least provide a degree of moderating influence in Easy, where at least the threat of action CAN be utilised courtesy of the membership levels achieved.
They are not the be all and end all solution per se, but it is a shame that the "moderating" influence they can cast on "negotiations":hmm: wasn't appreciated by a wider spectrum of Ryanair pilots.
In Ryanair you can see and reap the rewards of that oversight now, difficult to contradict that management have been allowed free reign by the apathy ineptitude & timidity of the masses, but regretably that is where it is at. Hope for their sakes the Easy pilots can see the longer term picture and try and take care of the future even whilst acknowledging the current depressed market. You shouldn't try and demonise BALPA so vehemently/ repeatedly, it is just as tedious as if I were to try and convince you they are the remedy for all industrial relation ills. . . . which I manifestly don't.

[u0062]

I am with busboy on this one. Had my fair share of being let down by Balpa, however now is not the time to dwell on the past. I will be renewing my Balpa membership.

The greater the support for Balpa the more chance we have to limit the damage being done within our industry. Each and everyone of us is responsible for protecting our minimal terms and conditions.

Should Balpa fail on this one, will the last one out please turn out the light.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Cap'n P, I don't "demonise" BALPA, nor do I wish to hijack this thread, but you, and others, do have a tendency to gloss over their patent inadequacies, albeit you have a more realistic appreciation of their MO.

Nevertheless, in the main carriers outside of BA they do seem to be singularly inept at protecting the rights of individuals: they may have some success in protecting the rights / Ts & Cs of some minority groups, notably themselves through the CC system, but the needs of the individual are not a priority for them, and you would, no doubt, endorse that, as Arkwright so visibly demonstrated.

And that is where my problem with unions lies: the self interest over the needs of the group.

When you can reform the BALPA equivalent of "Member's Expenses" and in one company reliably demonstrate, time after time, that the union will support the needs of the many over the needs of the few, or will refrain from sacrificing certain rights of the many for some crumb thrown from the table for a few rats to sate themselves on, then I might be more inclined to take some notice of the vitriolic pro-union lemmings.

[Mister Geezer]

Should Balpa fail on this one, will the last one out please turn out the light.

Leave the lights on - it will give the management an extra cost to worry about.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

BusBoy - I genuinely wish to thank you for being willing to put the past behind and get on with the job in hand. As you rightly point out, a big altercation may be looming and we need every single member's support. We are delighted to have yours.

The Real Slim Shady - you are, of course, most welcome to participate in this debate given its subject matter. Indeed you are representative of those proud Ryanair pilots who scuppered BALPA's plans at your company earlier this year. You are now the proud recipient of compulsory leave (ie you now only get 11/12 of your promised salary and they still get 900 hours a year out of you. The wonderful advantage of having no union to represent you is that all that nasty negotiation could be dispensed with and you just got told about your pay cut. To the casual outsider, a 1% expenditure on BALPA might seem small beef in comparison with the 8.3% non-negotiated pay cut you had while your company posted a several hundred million Euro profit. Not to worry though, the Blessed Michael is undoubtedly grateful to you all - even if he never quite gets round to telling you. Why have we not had the same deal superimposed upon us given we made less profit than you? Is it because a) Our managers just love us or b) Our managers know BALPA would instantly ballot for strike action were they to do so. Answers on a postcard to NSF @ The Orange Order. In all honesty, the only real difference between Ryanair and easyJet is BALPA - we both have the same complete fascists running our respective companies, albeit yours are a bit more overt about it. Our BALPA reps have spent the last year fighting battle after battle - the truth is they have won some and lost some. If, as seems possible, we are limbering up for the main event then the only protection we will have will be our union. I still believe a compromise will occur at the last minute. However, as can be seen from this debate and numerous private conversations around the company, people are willing to stand up and be counted if there is not a big turnaround. BALPA is the only vehicle through which the pilots' voices will be heard.

[Skyhigh86]

You are now the proud recipient of compulsory leave (ie you now only get 11/12 of your promised salary and they still get 900 hours a year out of you.

Still yet to see why this is a bad thing?
Just stash 10% of your "earning months" and your sorted, everyone of my non flying pals say they would jump at the chance of taking a months unpaid leave each year if they were offered it.

As long as your careful with your money then you can take a very nice holiday, or actually enjoy crimbo properly.............until you start back on roster on 1st jan:bored:

[Doug the Head]

Good post Norman! :ok:

[Speevy]

yep great post NSF..

Speevy

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Norman, as much as I love you, it really does you no service to throw rocks across the water. Most pilots of my acquaintance here in Air Pikey absolutely adore their month off. Think of it, an entire month! No uniform, no alarm clock, no union guaranteed stale cheese sandwich and tepid tea, no slots, no fuel receipts, no cadet trainees determined to kill you. Old boy, it’s nothing short of paradise. As you correctly point out, month off included, we're still the most productive pilots in €urope, and when you multiply 900 hours by our hourly rates, even a junior FO is on seriously decent coin. To that you can add home every night, brand new planes and all of that without BLAPA’s fickle fingers anywhere near at hand. Imagine!

You've made it plain that you hold your BLAPA in high regard, Norman. I maintain they don't deserve your loyalty. In fact, I would go so far as to suggest, with enormous respect, that you've permitted a profound sense of Doric decency to brush over that part of your mind usually reserved for rational discourse. But then, I know the beast BLAPA, warts and all, and hold unions in the same high regard one usually reserves for testicular carcinoma. They play to your fear, encourage the entirely false notion of strength in numbers whilst simultaneously counting all the money and distributing it to themselves, who are, I can assure you, in desperate financial straights. All of this whilst trying to cast a web of collective amnesia over those royally screwed by the BLAPA of Christmases past.

You are too nice and too good to be a cheerleader for the mediocrity in brogues that is BLAPA, Norman, and if you took off your rose coloured glasses long enough to observe your beloved union felching between the well-padded buttocks of British Airways pilots, you would see as I do, that they subscribe to the old wisdom that a wasted crisis is a terrible thing. Beware Norman. You are being massaged, and not in the good way.

Don't take my word for it, old boy. Ask the chaps at Thompson/Virgin/BMI how they value their "co-operative, consultative relationships" with BLAPA. Or better still, ask the 25 BMI Captains who've just joined us rather than wait until January reveals for them an even less certain future at the hands of the Luftwaffe. Not to worry, though. As of yesterday, we have harp embroidered jerseys for another 23 DEC's for next year so far. Do let me know if you need a pointer (https://frd.ie/pilot/pilot.html). The race for the LGW base is sure to be mad.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Great post Norman !! Shame it is absolute codswallop :ugh::ugh:

Our leave system, the annual leave system which applies to all pilots, is that we each apply for a calendar month in a single block and the remaining 10 days we take in another 1 or 2 blocks. Because we have a wrap round system in place, 5 days leave is actually 13 days off, and a calendar month counts as 18 days leave.

The BRK contractors just put aside some of their huge earnings to cover the month off: the rest of us get paid our basic and our other allowances ( which you don't need to know about).

We didn't negotiate any pay cut: all we did was adjust the leave system, bearing in mind that a lot of people, like me, who don't have school age children, don't need leave in school in holidays any more and are quite happy to take leave over the winter ( Caribbean is still warm as is the Far East). We still have eactly the same amount of time off as leave, we just have in different blocks.

One of my colleagues has just returned from his month off having travelled to Malaysia and the Phillipines: another is looking forward to having his ski-ing holiday in the whole month of February and I am still to decide whether I go to to Australia for my month off - never had the leave to be able to travel that distance before - or just head off to the western US or Caribbean. When I talk to my colleagues about your " forced paycut leave system" oddly enough they all love it, because your spin is utter tosh and divorced from reality.

Turning now to your threat of strike action, exactly how far do you think that will get you? How much "solidarity" do you expect from your other union members? Will the BA pilots stand shoulder to shoulder with you? Will the bmi pilots be there, warming their hands over your picket line fires with their "brothers" from bmibaby?

The bmi / baby guys with 737 TRs won't: they will doing the FR interview and sim to get a job that pays better than the one they have been made redundant from - what did BALPA do for them - is more secure and offers them a career with roster stability, high earnings, the opportunity to bid to work in any of 34+ bases around Europe and a great leave system.

All that will happen is that you will rattle your rusty sabres and the management wil offer you a crumb or two, push through what they want, promote a few of your CC to LTC / TRE / Management posts, close another base and force retirement on people - we aren't making you redundant, there is a job for you in Milan / Berlin / Insert new Polish base here.

You carry on supporting the good cause, and when you go on strike we will pick up your disgruntled pax, or what is left of bmi will pick up your ticked off pax, or Wizzair, or Vuelling / Clickair or Air Berlin or Germanwings.

Get the idea ????

The travelling public has a huge choice of LoCos: if you lot strike they will just change carrier. Pyrrhic Victory for BALPA.

Now if your BALPA is so great, perhaps you will explain, in some detail and with a substantive logical argument, why they have approved the use of cheap labour at easy ( the CTC cadets ) facilitating their exploitation by the company, and the introduction of 145s at LHR with bmi, in breach of the scope agreement, which is now threatening mainline jobs in the wake of the LH cutbacks? Can you tell me what they did to protect / help the guys at Silverjet / Excel ? I won't go on: you get the drift.

And finally;

Indeed you are representative of those proud Ryanair pilots who scuppered BALPA's plans at your company earlier this year.

I wasn't a representative, nor am I now: myself and Leo were the leaders and continue to be.

[Elephant and Castle]

You love your compulsory unpaid month off and some chaps even love having painful looking things up where the sun doesn´t shine. There is just no accounting for human nature. You tell us that you love the fat kid in the play ground that bullies you, you love it when you are made to eat your own turds, you love to have your lunch taken away... I do not mind you lying to us but is the lying to yourself that worries me. Perhaps you do well to love it as you have no choice. Maybe it gives you the illusion of some dignity.

We at Ezy do have a choice and it will be exercised very soon. The playground bully ain´t having my lunch. If it gets ugly then so be it but hey good luck with your descent into masochism accross the pond.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Elephant.....we don't have lunch to take away; we take our own. Then again, didn't the taxman take your company provided food into account to tax your flight pay?

Now instead of descending in to playground rants, why not just answer the questions about BALPA, the CTC cadets and the 145s at LHR?

[heebeegb]

Slim Shady - it's such a shame, but then i guess you've known nothing else.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

The BRK contractors just put aside some of their huge earnings to cover the month off: the rest of us get paid our basic and our other allowances ( which you don't need to know about).



Oh well thats ok then. Let the BRK lads bend over and take it. In other words the majority of FR pilots get shafted to preserve the T&Cs of the rest of you. Which is why you and Leo would never accept any of BALPA's rhetoric. Every man for himself suits you - the vocal minority - just fine.

Ezy is far from perfect. You are correct that the cadets who have joined over the past 18 months have been treated disgracefully. You are also correct that BALPA do not provide all the answers, but our CC have done a fantastic job preserving our T&Cs, regardless of rank, in the face of an FR style onslaught from our MOL clones at Orange HQ. Despite having to deal with pilots based across Europe on several different contracts and increasing efforts to divide the pilot workforce further, our Balpa reps have done their best to draw a line in the sand, through proper consultation, that they believe our pilot workforce does not wish to cross. We are standing on the edge of that line now, and it is down to us as a group to act collectively to keep what we have, and just as importantly to preserve it for those who wish to join us in the future. If we don't act together then so be it - the consequences will be dire and we will have only ourselves to blame. Leo can post some more of his amusing youtube clips. But at least thanks to proper union recognition, we have given ourselves that chance.

You might be happy as a pig in :mad: Slim, but don't tell us that all these BRK contractors are happy with their lot. If they are it is simply because they don't know any better, or have been spending too much time talking with you and Leo. The BMI guys who have just joined in the LHS have done so because they had no other option. I doubt any of them ever aspired to work for FR. They are joining because circumstances elsewhere dictate they suddenly have no way to pay their mortgages. I very much doubt any of them will be enjoying the obsolete contracts that you and Leo are sitting pretty on. You might be ok, but for guys lower down the chain it is pretty desperate. You might not care about that, or even recognise it, but there are enough of us who do. The profession cannot afford the I'm Alright Jack attitude that has become the status quo at FR, because it will only take us one way. Balpa with all its imperfections is the only option left.

[Doug the Head]

The BRK contractors just put aside some of their huge earnings to cover the month off...Just subtract taxes (ough!) pension, medical, car parking, hotels, crewfood and health insurance, and all over sudden that famously "huge" salary isn't really so huge anymore... ;)

We didn't negotiate any pay cut: all we did was adjust the leave system...All RyanScare did was adjust the system. You weren't asked, you didn't negotiate, you were told to take a month off or else... Major difference, but of course you're too thick to realize that.

Ah, the blessings of having no union! :8

[Coppi]

So how big is that BRK salary really, then?

If you fly 900 hours (which is quite a lot as every airline pilot who has been flying for a while can assure you) that will give you:
900x124,35 Euros=111.915,00 Euros gross.

111.915x0,65=72.745 euros per annum after tax (optimistic tax rate).
From that amount you have to subtract:
Uniform, medical, sim training twice a year, parking permit, health insurance, ID cost, etc.

72745:12=6062 euros a month after tax.

Now the average pound/euro exchange rate is 1.40 I believe, but let's be generous again and take today's exhange rate of 1.18035:
6062:1.18035=5136 pounds per month.

Bear in mind that in order to enjoy this fantastic salary you have had to: PAY to apply to be hired, PAY for your type rating (unless you hold a 737NG rating; a 737 300-900 rating doesn't count) to the tune of 38000 euros, PAY the application fee for a command upgrade, etc.

Bear also in mind that you can forget about the aforementioned BRK hourly rate, because it is already extinct as it was deemed too generous for the present market conditions.
Instead it is heading towards the 90 euro per hour mark if I am not mistaken.

Anybody keen to apply?

Didn't think so.

By the way as an aside if you haven't figured it yourself already, Leo IS MOL himself and Shady IS his management pilot bulldog.

Still wonder why they are so poisonous against our union?

[The Real Slim Shady]

That union would be the one that have just given Thomson the the old "rollover and take the redundancies like it or lump it" blessing would it?

Check the Thomson thread (http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/397187-thomson-fly-2.html#post5365675) just next to this then try again to be a tad more convincing.

Reality......what a concept.

[Coppi]

You guessed it allright!
Same union and proud of it!
Care to comment about the fantastic salary opportunities at BRK/Ruinair since in the past you have been quite vocal in advertising them?

[Coppi]

I might be wrong on this one but I suspect it is quite shameful for someone like Leo-Hairy-Camel to write on these forums PRETENDING to be what he didn't succeed in becoming, i.e. an Airline Pilot.

The reality, however painful, couldn't be more obvious though!

[Doug the Head]

Reality......what a concept.You know, the thing is, less and less pilots are buying into your version of reality any longer.

You can drag Thompson into the debate, you can ask your 'biatch' LHC (or are you his biatch?) to post some silly videos, but you can not paper over the truth that the unionless BRK deal is a bad deal. :p

[The Real Slim Shady]

Doug

Go bang your drum at the doorstep of the baby guys who are looking for jobs with FR AFTER their great unionized company made them redundant.

When you have beaten the retreat there, turn your attention to the unionized Thomson Fly and the pilots there who will be made redundant.

If you have any energy left, beat the retreat at LHR for the unionized bmi guys, shafted by their own union, looking for work.

Take your union and get it in order before you come round here shouting your mouth off about people in secure, well paid jobs.

Ask not what BRK can do for you, ask WTF has BALPA done for easy / bmi / baby / Thomson / Virgin / Excel / Silverjet.

And Coppi.....how on earth can you be pleased that BALPA has yet again let down the members and even more will be redundant?

Do you get some perverted pleasure in this ? Are you of the Scargill / Red Robbo mentality ?

[Coppi]

To be perfectly honest, if I was made redundant from my current airline I too would be grateful for a job at BRK/Emirates/Etihad/Qatar/Vietnam/FR/China/Africa to keep paying the mortgage.

That however doesn't change the fact about the poor BRK salaries, horrible working conditions and management non-ethos at BRK/FR.

Sadly, other airline AMBs are learning fast from their teacher Leo-Hairy-Camel, aided by former apprentices like Warwick Brady to pass on the gospel.

Soon Leo will be quoted in MBA courses I am afraid!

[Coppi]

I am not familiar with the sort of mentality you mention, but I am sure it is one of your attributes.

Far be it from me to be glad about the misfortunes of others.

I said I am proud of my union, however imperfect they may be.

Apart from slandering posters when they come up with facts that don't suit your version of "reality", any comments about the Fantastic salary opportunities @ FR/BRK?

By the way, Balpa also work in lobbying MP's and policymakers and with Airline Industry issues in general, another reason to be a proud member!

[The Real Slim Shady]

Coppi, I don't think your belt is going through all the loops and your aerial certainly isn't picking up all the channels.

You are PROUD of a union that negotiates job losses?

You are PROUD of a union that facilitates the exploitation of CTC cadets at easy?

You are PROUD of a union that negotiates redundancies at bmi / baby / Thomson / Virgin ?

Are you PROUD of a union that can't be relied upon to uphold scope agreements ?

Are you PROUD of union that won't provide legal assistance to members - Arkwright et al ?

Are you a NIMBY ?

Your myopia is breathtaking !

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Ah Slim - how touching. It turns out everyone at Ruinair just loves having their pay docked. How foolish of me to think people wanted to actually earn money rather than have it taken away. I am simply delighted for you all that the compulsory 'adjustment' to your leave arrangements has been so worthwhile. Perhaps you should speak to your representatives (if you have any) and arrange for a further month's pay to be deducted to increase the pleasure of the experience even more.

[u0062]

Calling all Orange peelers lets cut the @@@' and stand shoulder to shoulder with Balpa. Period.

[Coppi]

Why on earth are you so astonished?

After all you are proudly serving your master Leo/Mol, so I think being a proud member of a worker's union is much less peculiar than your predicament!

However, as I sense that conversing with you about anything is completely pointless and an utter waste of my valuable time and because I have completely lost hope in getting a sensible reply about the fantastic ruinair/BRK remuneration opportunities, I 'll leave it to you to think about it for a while.

Who knows you might even come up with a plausible version, although I won't lose any sleep over it!
The truth often hurts but believe me it is the key to seeing the light!

[Doug the Head]

Go bang your drum at the doorstep of the baby guys who are looking for jobs with FR AFTER their great unionized company made them redundant.Being made redundant, or a company going bust, is a part of life and it could happen to any company, big or small, unionized or not.

Take your union and get it in order before you come round here shouting your mouth off about people in secure, well paid jobs.We already discussed the "well paid" portion above, that is a very relative concept depending on;

1) how thick the blindfold is (that gross salary ≠ net salary is obviously a mathematical challenge for some "well paid" FR pilots...)
2) how deep you want to bend over for your corporate master (application fee + type rating + medical + crew food + hotels + ...)
3) your pain threshold and (number of sectors, block hours without water/food etc)
4) how much vaseline you think is enough as compensation (having fruitcakes like you and LHC looking out for the T&C's)

But I'm wondering, just how "secure" is a job in a company where you might get fired if you join a union? :O

[Coppi]

Very insecure I presume, unless you are well versed in the art of brown-nosing your masters!

I find this so amusingly typical though: somebody comes up with a couple of facts for the benefit of others that are possibly new to this industry and shortly after finds himself attacked by MOL's/leo's dog (metaforically speaking of course)!
Not that I mind at all, and it becomes so transparent who the master is and who's on the leash!

[Coppi]

I must confess that a few years back I had applied to join ruinair, not having realised the facts about this company.
Of that I am not proud but we all make mistakes, such is life.

I was rather experienced and type rated in the type of airplanes they operated.
They kindly replied that in order to apply for this job a small fee was required!
This was indeed an invaluable hint of what lay ahead and I steered clear by politely not replying to mol's request for pocket money.

Never regretted it by the way!

end of short happy story.

[G-AWZK]

If you are a pilot working under a BRK contract, you are not a Ryanair employee. Technically you are a contractor with NO job security at all.

The petulant screaming of TRSS and LHC are diversionary tactics to cover the real scandal that is about to destroy the terms and conditions of all pilots in Europe - unless pilots themselves wake up to the danger posed by these idiotic BRK contracts!

[Gary Lager]

It's not hard to find airlines which have made people redundant during the current ecomonic hiccup. Unions cannot prevent redundancies, but absence of union recognition does not necessarily create an advantage which will always guarantee commercial success.

That fact that such a large number of the airlines mentioned have BALPA recognition says more about the vast majority of professional pilots feeling that the union has something to offer them, and that BALPA recognition and membership is important, than it does about any of the redundancies being caused by BALPA (which is what your perverse use of examples attempts to show). Logic doesn't seem to feature heavilty in your arguments, does it Slim?

It's a little rich for the compnay which invented the concept of 'screw-the-pilot' (sim fees, pay for your TR, pay to fly, BRK etc.) so then lay blame the uptake of similar concepts elsewhere at the door of the BALPA!

[Speevy]

I have just realized that I could help a bit the very bad financial situation of my own country (ITALY) so I gave a call today to the "Agenzia delle Entrate" (the equivalent of HRMC) and described them what a friend of mine told me about BRK contract (the guy has left no:ok:).

They told me that they are already on the case and they will soon pay a visit in a couple of very small airports in Italy making sure that the individuals involved are actually contributing to reduce our tremendous deficit and that somebody is actually paying national insurance for those pilots.

Speevy


P.S. if you want to give them some more infos yourself 848.800.444 (in Italy)

[The Real Slim Shady]

Gary, I have not claimed that BALPA caused redundancies: what I have claimed is that BALPA have done nothing to stop the redundancies.

Equally, the vitriol conveniently ignores the role of BALPA in the CTC scandal at easy and the Regional "infringement" at LHR: one thing which is abundantly clear, however, is that whenever the union tub thumpers run out of argument they ALWAYS resort to abuse and complaining that Brookfield / Ryanair or anyone and everyone other than, they, themselves and their union, are responsible for the reduction in Ts and Cs.

It would be interesting to see how many of the union acolytes would hand over a substantial proportion of their enormous Brookfield / Ryanair beating salaries to help out the folks being made redundant from the other union recognised companies.

Do that and you could save their souls by freeing them from having to take the FR Euro!

Why do I think that won't happen ?

[45989]

G-AWZK,
I think right now the smart arses operating through brookfield will soon feel the heat.
Pretending to run a salary system nett of tax does'nt work in the long run especially when the recipients are the exposed parties.
TRSS
You ought to remember mol once was merely a corner shopkeeper in Crumlin proud of ripping off the public.
LEOPARDS DONT CHANGE THEIR SPOTS AND ARE PRONE TO EAT THEIR YOUNG

LEO
men in white coats I think? You quite obviously aren't who you pretend to be

[The Real Slim Shady]

Good grief 45989, what is this (http://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=5366314#post5366435) ?

Encouragement for those who pay for their TRs ?

Leopards and spots? Tut Tut :ok::ok:

[Zippy Monster]

Slim

You are PROUD of a union that facilitates the exploitation of CTC cadets at easy?

The very fact that these cadets did not / do not have BALPA representation at easyJet, due mainly to being contracted to CTC rather than easyJet, means they do not come under the protection of BALPA-negotiated agreements and as such are open to the exploitation you mention.

Surely this means there is all the more reason to have union representation, so they can be treated the same as the rest of the workforce?! If they did, then they might have fared better. I know. I was there last year.

You have posts advocating Ryanair's approach to industrial relations (i.e. involving Brookfield contracts), and in the same thread you attack BALPA's 'allowing' easyJet's 'exploitation' of CTC cadets, many of whom are now working on FlexiCrew terms, which is turning out to be more or less a mirror of... er, Brookfield. And you accuse others of myopia...!

[45989]

TRSS

Far from it. Simply not wishing further misery on someone deluded to think they can buy a job for slave wages aka your sorry outfit!

Re the leopard I suggest you check it out before ending up in the merde!

[The Real Slim Shady]

But Zippy that very union allowed the exploitation in the first place as the negotiations woukd have taken place under the collective bargaining agreement.

Equally, what was the union doing allowing flexicrew to take the jobs of existing FOs? And if they didn't allow them to take existing jobs, why did they allow such a contract variation providing no "protection" whilst allegedly retaining benefits for existing FOs?

[Mister Geezer]

Equally, what was the union doing allowing flexicrew to take the jobs of existing FOs? And if they didn't allow them to take existing jobs, why did they allow such a contract variation providing no "protection" whilst allegedly retaining benefits for existing FOs?

I seem to recall that was discussed earlier on in this thread. Since the Flexicrew pilots were not employed by easyJet then BALPA apparently had limited leverage in what they could do over the matter.

Whether that is a 'convenient' excuse or a 'genuine' one, remains to be seen.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Big changes afoot at easyJet. Just announced this morning that Andy Harrison, easyJet CEO, stepping down in June 2010. I personally do not see this as good news and fear he will be replaced by a hard-nose numpty like his predecesor. I wish him well but just hope he does not take-over as BA's CEO from Willy Walsh. Interesting times.

[Doug the Head]

Big changes afoot at easyJet. Just announced this morning that Andy Harrison, easyJet CEO, stepping down in June 2010.Hmmm, so much for that "career airline" and "making EZY a great place to work" rhetoric of his... :rolleyes:

[Alycidon]

Would you now recommend that the EMA crews losing their base just head off to RYR rather than relocating, since the race to the bottom now seems to be well under way.

[Zippy Monster]

Equally, what was the union doing allowing flexicrew to take the jobs of existing FOs?

They probably didn't realise until it was too late, because the company didn't tell them. What was the cadet scheme has always been accepted in the past, and until 2008 they were all given full-time permanent employment afterwards. This was never a problem. Then the company suddenly changed their tack at the end of last year and FlexiCrew came into being - before BALPA knew, or could do anything, about it.

I was disappointed with BALPA's response to our situation at the time, but I understand it and I really can't see how anyone can blame them for this particular part of the situation. The only gripe I have with them is how slow they have been to respond, develop a policy on this type of employment and decide how they are going to go about tackling it. That is a problem.

The key point, though, is that FlexiCrew was not a totally new concept, but something which morphed into existence unexpectedly from what used to be the cadet entry scheme, before anybody could do anything about it. You cannot blame BALPA for this, particularly as - I reiterate - the cadets do not have any representation.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Zippy, your answer leads me to ask what the CC and BALPA could have done to ensure that the cadets did have representation: I was on the phone to a mate at bmi this morning and got first hand info on how the buck was passed around there regarding the 145s.

If the easy CC had the will to deal with the situation, along with assertive support from BALPA HQ, the situation could easily have been resolved: which validates my assertion that BALPA and the CCs are prepared to sacrifice individuals and minorities for the benefit of other groups, notably the CC reps!!

[Coppi]

"which validates my assertion that BALPA and the CCs are prepared to sacrifice individuals and minorities for the benefit of other groups, notably the CC reps!!"

Totally unsubstantiated and a slanderous allegation without any trace of proof as usual.
The anonimity under which you conveniently hide to slander Balpa at every opportunity unfortunately allows you to spread unsubstantiated lies around without consequences.
Your aim is to try to discredit them so as to prevent recognition at ruinair, thus loyally serving your master mol.:yuk:

[BitMoreRightRudder]

which validates my assertion that BALPA and the CCs are prepared to sacrifice individuals and minorities for the benefit of other groups, notably the CC reps!!



Maybe in certain airlines, most definitely not in ezy. As has been stated by many, the cc at ezy have done a fantastic job, for all of us. The flexi-crew problem stems as much from ezy management as it does from CTC who are now literally prostituting cadets. For CTC see BRK, they are becoming one and the same.

Too many people constantly come out with the stuff TRSS mentions above - I'm sick of hearing it at ezy "oh well balpa didn't look after me when this happened", fair enough but it is the here and now that we are having to fight in, merely to keep what we have. Inadequacies of BALPA past need to be put aside. The ezy cc have offered fantastic leadership, as always it is down to the pilot workforce to act together and show some backbone. So it is easy to see how BALPA will never achieve anything at FR.

[CamelhAir]

Slim, a union is only as good as its members desire it to be. Hence the problem in fr. Ezy pilots have more backbone - and the effectiveness of Balpa in ezy vs fr reflects that.
The point about past alleged balpa misdemeanours is irrelevant. The here and now counts. Generals usually prepare to fight the last war, it seems to me that balpa are not falling into that trap at ezy. Neither, slim, should you.

[RAT 5]

If AH is leaving, might WB have aspirations to step up? if so, then expect ez to become RYR Mk.2 very quickly. That will test the mettle of the crews. It could also mean a bumper Christmas 2010 for BRK. They might just corner the LoCo crewing market. AGH.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I am confident when I say you won't find a single BALPA member in easyJet who doesn't think every member of the Company Council does a fantastic, impartial, difficult task to the best of their abilities at a considerable personal cost to themselves.

Any suggestion that they further a narrow personal agenda would be laughable were it not do indignantly contemptible.

Next years BALPA fees are more than covered by the crew food refund that the union forced the company to pay on threat of legal action. It pays for itself most years I find..


WWW

[PPRuNeUser0178]

Crew food refund?

Inside info you'd like to share there WWW?

[Viking101]

The whole business has become corrupt.

Its all about the money, and "a great place to work" where there is bonus to collect.

We, as workers, are trying to do our job and at the same time have a life with some T&Cs left. On the other side of the ring you find greedy people who dont care about the numbers (employees) but only looking for their own benefits.

In the middle you find BALPA, trying to equalize the huge gap in interests to our benefit bearing in mind the companys future in some ways.

As it has been the last 2 years, I find that we have come very far from eachither. We want a secure future and a great place to work, where we all are happy and get what we deserve. I feel that the managament have done a lot just to p*ss us off and create a bad atmosphere. At the same time they are making their very important decisions on how their own bonus will be affected from which account and that is why the left hand has no idea of what the right hand is doing. Thats why we have problems with crewing levels. Thats why we have a lot of other problems, most of them really stupid and unneccesary....

This is what happens when you have the wrong people in a management. And I am not confident it will change- greed gives birth to greed. Thus the replacement of AH will not be better... They are all the same :suspect:

[spanner the cat]

TRSS - you're more than a little disingenuous by mentioning other airlines redundancies. In the main the respective CCs have done their level best to prevent job losses - sometimes with 100% success.

As an example I think you are missing the point with BALPA's negotiations last year with Thomson about the then surplus. As a result of last years negotiations a deal was done to keep up to 96 pilots in work - in practice the number was just over 40. Other measures were taken, career breaks and voluntary severance in order to prevent compulsory redundancies. The company had to listen and work with BALPA. Result - no compulsory redundancies (the original figure was nearly 200)

This time around the negotiations are probably not going to be anything like this, possibly there's a bit more to it than just a simple surplus. In the past, the same managers, when they managed First Choice, would have just imposed a settlement. With a strong union they have to talk. It also has to be accepted that sometimes the talks won't go the way the pilots would want it to but the talks still take place.

Contrast this with what happens when RYR have to scale back - effectively what has happened during this downturn. Compulsory time off (contractors = no pay). Sounds like the hourly rate for contractors will be reduced - negotiation not required as they're contractors. All new joiners on a BRK contract - don't have to pay them off and no union monkeyshines from them either. I can guess only too well what would happen if there had to be large scale layoffs. It'd be carnage. No union, no voice. Saying ah it'll never happen 'cos we're Ryanair doesn't really cut it.

BALPA isn't perfect but with a good CC and solid backing from the pilots an airline has to take note if there's an objection to what's going on.

The flexi-crew / cadet thing is another matter. I believe that BALPA did take their collective eye off the ball on that but to suggest that it was done so as to benefit individual CC members is a very poor thing to say:= .
If anything the failing was at a national level - and something that they finally seem to be getting their teeth into.

EZ management would probably love to have their pilots as cowed as they are in Ryanair (which airline management wouldn't). If the CC with full support of the pilots successfully fights against the erosion in Ts and Cs, it won't happen.

Spanner

[The Real Slim Shady]

Spanner - you do have some valid points, however, "disingenuous" is probably a poor choice of word in the context you used it.

CCs can do little to prevent redundancies brought about by market forces or mismanagement: what they can do, in the easy and bmi cases, is to enforce the extant agreements: what you have to ask yourself, as a union member in those companies, is why they didn't.

Your union strength is founded on 2 pillars: unity being one, in so much as the group acts with one voice, and equivalency, in so much that the same agreements, terms and conditions are applied, and upheld, without favour across the spectrum of the workforce.

Modern day cross border organisations tend to make the application of the latter difficult as local agreements,market forces and political and social requirements may encourage variations. The cost of living in Spain or Poland may have an effect on the salary structure as the cost of corporate social taxation, as in France, may be the catalyst to minimise staff wage costs.

Additionally, employers are now looking, across the board, to utilise more agency and contract staff to provide them with more flexibility: as those numbers have risen so union membership has reduced. Interestingly, the decline in union membership has been minimal in the public sector whereas the reductions in the private sector have been quite substantial. From 1995, membership has reduced by around 0.7% per year across the board with the private sector membership reducing by around 1.2% per annum.

So with those few points in mind how does the efficacy of BALPA, with its CC system stack up: the figures you quote, at Thomson, of 200 compulsory redundancies reduced to 160 redundancies, career breaks etc - 200 less the 40 you say were kept in work - doesn't say a lot for your strong union. Perhaps they worked on the basis, amongst others, of seniority - LIFO: essentially the CC, comprising no doubt a cross section of the most senior pilots, would hardly vote themselves out of a job.

Nevertheless, because it was union driven, and the union and CC are a valid cross section of the entire workforce, it must be the optimum solution.

Equally, was the introduction of Regional crews at LHR by bmi, in breach of the scope agreement, the optimum solution for a strong union? Or did they take their eye off the ball again?

On the contrary, in your hypothetical situation that Ryanair are scaling back ( 55 deliveries next year, 400+ new FOs, 400+ commands DEC and internal promotion, 3500+ cabin crew with the attendant jobs created on the ground ) you assert that we are all given compulsory time off with the contractors getting no pay.

You are quite correct that the contractors don't get paid when they are off, even on days off: they are paid by the block hour. That is the contract they signed up to: whether you would sign up to that would be your choice, and you can have your opinion on the rights or wrongs of that contract, but no one forced anyone to sign on the dotted line.

Where you are wrong though is that the time off is compulsory: I concede that one interpretation could hold it in that light, however, we tend to call time off annual leave and the management were clear to explain that the optimum solution, to avoid any redundancies or compulsory unpaid leave, was to share the winter service reductions around the pilot force by asking, not telling, us to each take a calendar month off, preferably over the winter.

By agreeing to this the pilot force avoided cutbacks, redundancies, career breaks: what we didn't need was a union acting as a go between. The pilots at STN, last year did the same thing when service reductions were needed over the winter: they all agreed that the pain should be shared, not foisted on the contractors or, in the seniority list comparison, on the most junior pilots.

So no union, no voice hasn't materialised: rather the pilots take a balanced view and negotiate directly with the company.

As a result of that we have managed to avoid redundancies over the winter: at the EWC meeting in Dublin the statement from the Head of HR was " Our primary aim is avoid making anyone redundant". At that meeting the pilots, and cabin crew, were actively involved in exploring ways we could cut costs without cutting service and discussing ways of increasing our ancillary revenue. I don't recall anyone being cowed: quite the reverse, people empowered to take a very active part in the running of the company.

Additionally, the pilots at FR are free to join, or be members of, any union they wish: the majority choose not to join or to be represented.

So on the one hand, you have the union represented companies cutting back, pilots taking redundancy, compulsory and voluntarily, career breaks and early retirement: you have pilots in one unionised company happily working outside their scope agreement in another unionised company where massive redundancies are now on the cards. Card carrying member against card carrying member, CC against CC, all underwritten by the union, who took their collective eye off the ball.

On the other hand, you have 2000+ pilots working for FR, the vast majority quite happy, getting on with job, getting home at night - bear in mind the "floaters" choose that contract - and getting paid every month with no threat of redundancy or cutbacks. Pilots who do negotiate, just not through a third party, but who take an active part in ensuring that the company makes money. No infighting, no flexi cadets, no selling line training hours to fill seats and no regional pilots taking the jobs of mainline pilots.

Horses for courses.

[siftydog]

Slim shady, there's something you don't quite get here.
In EJ, the pilots are our union. The union are our pilots.
That way, unlike you we don't have to have all 1600 of us hammer and tongs at MOL simultaneously negotiating a a month off unpaid while a day rate contractor sweeps up our work. It's just easier with elected representatives (who know their stuff).

And no. I am not one......

[bizdev]

I visited EZY head office at Luton for the first time around 1998 when head office consisted of a portacabin (easyLand) with three desks in it - one for Stellios, one for the Chief Pilot, and one for the Chief Engineer (I exagerate - but not by much). I continued to visit on a regular basis (as a supplier to EZY) and watched the growth with interest as more and more portacabins were bolted on.

If you read Barbara Cassani's book 'Go: An Airline Adventure' she writes about a similar start up to EZY. The early years were very exciting where everyone knew everyone and worked crazy hours doing roles not within their job description and was run very much like a Flying Club - happy days.

Unfortunately - when you get to a certain size, and continue to grow, you cannot run it like a flying club anymore - now you have the stockmarket and shareholders to answer to. Now you have a shed load of people who do not self manage themselves but need managing. So you need managers.

In my working life I have never been in an organisatioin where the managers were not blamed for everything - even when the management staff have been turned over numurous times (as they have in EZY). Perhaps there is no such thing as a good manager - he simply does not exist - maybe because you cannot keep all of the people happy all of the time.

During my time at BA - in the early years the senior management were heaviliy critisised for having no Airline Experience - now you have an Airline Pilot running the show but he is still "useless".

The point I'm making is that large organisations need management. Managers need to be able to manage. Often management will make decisions which not everyone will like. But the days when EZY were a 'flying club' are long gone.

bizdev

[The Real Slim Shady]

Sifty, I do get it and that is one of the points I made: CC against CC at bmi.

The easy CC allowing the flexi crew scheme - your colleagues, not someone at BALPA HQ, even tho they rubber stamp the deal.

Of course, you miss the point: at FR the BRK pilots are an integral part of our established crew complement, ergo, they don't take work from FR contract pilots, nor do we have 1600 + pilots all bickering at MOL, we have an established ERC and EWC system which utilises representatives.

[siftydog]

Very good slim - so the Ryan pilots are all Balpa but by name then obviously.

We could all stand here in a years time and swap notes as to who's lost the most in the last decade - but then that would be a silly little pissing competition wouldn't it. Good luck with your teethed up non - union type union.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

If I were you, Siftydog, I'd be rather more interested in who remains standing in a year from now. Take off your blinkers long enough and you too will note the squirming in the seats going on among investment analysts and industry observers at the changing of the guard (http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20091209-704459.html) in Orangeland.

AH leaves, finally, after having a gut full of Stelios, WB is champing at the bit with mousaka on his breath, and to this heady mix we can add the most interesting development (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/1210/1224260427419.html) of all.

Brady or Coyle, Brady or Coyle? Brady AND Coyle! Now that would be interesting.

Good luck, Orange men. The marching season is upon us.

[u0062]

I hope Balpa has recruited a few more staff. When the orange guys get a sniff of this one the membership numbers will take off. (forgive the pun).

[Coppi]

Don't worry l.scary.hammer aka mol, after the first day of industrial action they will be banging at your door to be your personnal assistants once more and you will finally be all happily reunited.

[spanner the cat]

Thanks TRSS. Your post had some good points too (seriously), until about the 6th paragraph and then it all disappeared in a haze of harps and propaganda. If you toned down the rhetoric people might actually listen more. ;)

...the optimum solution, to avoid any redundancies or compulsory unpaid leave, was to share the winter service reductions around the pilot force by asking, not telling, us to each take a calendar month off, preferably over the winter.


How cosy and agreeable it all sounds. That sounds remarkably like scaling back the quantity of flights. I notice you didn't discuss the likelihood of an arbitarily reduced hourly rate for your contractors. Also a little defensive there about compulsory BRK contracts for new joiners. I believe the EU are looking at employment of contractors. Be interesting to see their take on the stipulation to join via a BRK contract.

Perhaps they worked on the basis, amongst others, of seniority - LIFO: essentially the CC, comprising no doubt a cross section of the most senior pilots, would hardly vote themselves out of a job.


The criteria are negotiated by BALPA, LIFO is mentioned in the employment contract. The company would want to reduce pilot numbers at least cost - base and rank - they had to talk to BALPA. There were NO compulsory redundancies.

Now I'd like you to think the unthinkable. How exactly would a similar exercise be handled in Ryanair? No rhetorical BS now - it was obviously a consideration this winter. What representation would your pilots get? What would be the formula for working out who goes? Do you need to do any of this stuff anyway - you have a massive pool of contractors working for you?

There's enough anecdotal evidence out there of Ryanair's very top-down style of "consultation". It's consultation in name only.
rather the pilots take a balanced view and negotiate directly with the company.

must take ages having individual negotiations (2000+ pilots). It's a wonder anything gets agreed. :}

EZ seem to be building a head of steam. Their pilots are reaching a tipping point in what they'll accept. They probably only see a further chipping away at their employment terms. The only way their objections will be heard is through their union.

Generally pilots have a vested interest in their respective airlines doing well. I don't know of any airline that has failed because of it's pilots. Generally, managements come and go but pilots (if the airline is any good) tend to stay. Management ideas go in and out of fashion and don't they just lurve reinventing the wheel? :ugh: Often one of the things preventing the management of an airline driving said airline over a cliff (mostly in the name of short-term efficiencies) are the pilots through BALPA. That there isn't a huge union presence at Ryanair isn't IMHO something to brag about. There isn't a brake on plans - all of which may be very laudable and efficient, but still end up being bad in the long-term. There are no checks and balances. Now credit where credit's due. It doesn't seem to be doing you any harm at the moment (please no propaganda - we can refer to your previous posts). That doesn't mean that it won't in the future and the culture of union bashing is so entrenched that I doubt it would be possible to change.

Spanner

[thebeast]

we have an established ERC and EWC system which utilises representatives.

oh come on Slim you must know thats a total sham!!! nothing has ever been successfully negotiated by the ERC...if you can actually find out who they are or in fact they exist at all!

[The Real Slim Shady]

You say potato, I say pro and anti union aside, has easy lost its way or is it at a crossroads where it could lose its way?

Is easy a low cost, low fare airline or is it another bmi?

Trying to be a low service, no frills "legacy" carrier to major airports and dip toes in many sectors without excelling at any one thing? As a result in danger of alienating the very customers it relies on for its lifeblood. Even the easy website is a nightmare to work through in comparison to the FR site.

Flying a mixed fleet, as opposed to one type ( OK the 320 and 321 share a common TR but it doesn't make crew training or reservations any simpler) and not focusing a la Southwest on secondary airports - faster turn round, fewer delays.

Was, is the Airbus the correct choice for a loco - needs steps, baggage loaders etc?

I'm not stirring just opening up the debate on the comparison with the FR model.

[Gary Lager]

You say potato, I say pro and anti union aside, has easy lost its way or is it at a crossroads where it could lose its way?

Is easy a low cost, low fare airline or is it another bmi?

a) could be.

b) I am worried it's starting to look more like the latter.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Slim - just to correct any misunderstanding regarding the A319/320/321 type rating. It is indeed the same rating and the A319/320 are used interchangeably. Any Airbus-trained crew at easyJet (soon to be all crew once the 737 finally goes) can fly either aircraft. The A321 (we have 3 of them I believe) requires 4 sectors line training and no further sim training of any kind. That is an easyJet imposed training requirement and not an Airbus one. The A321 really only affects Gatwick and the only crews who fly it (apart from a few managers!) are ex-GB guys. At the drop of a hat we could 'train' everyone on it if required and thus far that has not proven necessary. In terms of pricing, we had the choice between Airbus and Boeing and I am led to believe that the price from Airbus was embarrassingly low. They had no low-co buyers at that stage and basically were desperate to get one. We got our A319s at a fraction of the market price.

What I think is legitimate debate is whether we should have gone for 189-seaters like yourselves instead of the 156-seaters we have in the A319. Also had we gone for 150-seaters we would only require 3 cabin crew which would have saved a fortune. Interesingly enough, our latest aircraft are A320s with 180 seats from which you can draw your own conclusions. Another factor in the decision was space on the production line at the time the offer was made. But in terms of the price we paid, Ryanair can only dream of getting their 737s on the same deal. From what I read in the press, they are finding Boeing less than receptive to the MoL customer technique of saying, "You piece of xxxx, give me your xxxxxx 737s at a quarter of their value or I will not buy any more - to be sure". Strange that Boeing think themselves above being spoken to like that - why would that be?

[The Real Slim Shady]

NSF - You lost total credibility in the last post when you added "To be sure"

I've never heard Michael say that ;)

[wilf102]

Are you sure?

[go around flaps15]

Norman "to be sure" Stanley Fletcher. AS slim said you have just blown any credibility you might have had right out of the water with a post like that.

[blackred1443]

Where as you swearing at me clearly increases your credibilty? Watch out the credibilty police on an internet forum open to every nutter on the planet are about!

PS Goaroundflaps I think Slim might have been joking the clue is in the icon!

[antonov09]

Ummm and I think we had a little talk about FR interviews being £1000. I think you posted earlier £300. I was told by a friend in FR that its £260. Lack of research on a topic and you are now talking about credibility. Hmmmm:D

[blackred1443]

Antonov
For the second time I believe i said approx £1000, but that included flights, accomodation x 2 nights, food, taxis, car parking at airport etc etc. Though yes £800 depending on the exchange rate that day in the case of my mate was probaby closer to the mark! Both your info and mine is secondhand so it won't always be 100% accurate. I was merely stating when people mention credibilty on an internet forum open to the general public its a bit daft. For all i know your an 80 year women who speaks to dead people in a home for mental health patients.....So your point is what exactly?

Yes i did post £300 earlier but i think the £40 difference is small change when your about to pay £33k for the TR or is that £32950 if we are being precise:rolleyes:

[antonov09]

Lack of research. I do feel like an 80 year old woman. As for information, I got mine from the horses mouth. It appears you got some of yours from the horses........:E

[blackred1443]

Lack of research, what are you talking about. Im not doing a masters in ryr. Is £200 or £500 that much of a big deal when your about to pay 33k for a TR and sign a BRK contract with no sick pay,no lol, no pension, no guarantee of any hours, no crew food, pay for own lpc/opc,uniform and dodgy tax dealings. In the words of mastercard 'priceless'.:ok:

The £500 would be the least of my worries

I'd rather back War of Attrition than talk to him, each to their own i guess

[antonov09]

"im not doing a masters on ryr" Im glad your not, you would need to have a degree on ryr first but your getting there blackred;)