Cuts?

[navibrator]

Anyone know where we can put 20 000 Army in the UK?

Tories to pull British forces out of Germany - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/6617358/Tories-to-pull-British-forces-out-of-Germany.html)

The article is rather worrying as it is either badly researched or Dr Fox really does believe the Army in Germany are not actually contributing to the Afghanistan venture! If this is the quality of a future Sec of State, we have no hope!

[Finnpog]

I think that it is quite a canny concept.

Why, when we are closing RAF bases do we not use the real estate like we have done with North Luffenham and Abingdon (to pluck two names out) and use them for Barracks?

It also bring the economic spending power of the troops and families back into the UK and not support the German economy.

After all - with the outbreak of peace, surely Germany can be responsible for it's own defence. If it does not want to pay for it's own defence forces to grow to cover the 'loss' they could always ask a wing of the EU Military to take it on.

Question: Is an EU Army a bit like a NATO-Light?

[navibrator]

"British Forces are stationed in Germany for reasons of national and NATO security with the agreement and support of the German government. The presence of British and American troops provides mutual security and is a visible display of the UK's support for its NATO allies. The UK has been a member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation since 1949.

NATO forces based in Germany are geographically well-placed to respond to events which could disrupt unity in Europe, while at the same time our presence in Germany has valuable economic and cultural benefits."

Withdrawal gives you less clout in international organisations and reduces any influence across the wider international arena. That is why the UK is becoming increasingly isolated in the world and that is before the rise of India, China, Brazil etc. Watch our economy drop down the list (we are already behind Italy!). Glad I am leaving for warmer shores!

[Finnpog]

And that is the point really. The FRG was part of NATO and it's existence was ensured by the BAOR & RAFG together with US Forces Europe.

With one Germany now - and a Chancellor who grew up on the other side of the curtain - the NATO status quo has been seriously disrupted with the EU and the idea of a non US & Canadian involved military alliance - hence my comment of NATO-light.

The backdrop to this is perhaps the Germans no longer wish to be 'protected' by a stronger nation. If we are there as guests not occupiers we might have no choice but to come home...sort of a "Thanks for that - now sod off" goodbye.

Blend this with a "So you want to have a high level of protection - now pay for it yourself" type of schadenfreude from Fox.

I hate to state it, but 'influence' in Europe is a concept which is over-egged by UK politicians to reassure the 'little people' and make us think that we are still important.

[CirrusF]

Why, when we are closing RAF bases do we not use the real estate like we have done with North Luffenham and Abingdon (to pluck two names out) and use them for Barracks?

They would need to find locations suitable to accept heavy armour, with suitable training grounds nearby, and good rail links to a major port.

[Finnpog]

True - I had been thinking more generally about troops and equipment rather than MBTs per se. Fair point.

Good job that Lyneham or Fairford aren't up for grabs, being near(ish) to Bristol and SPTA / Bovvy. They would even have runways for large AT frames.

Lossie & Leuchars do have ports nearby - and Felixstowe and Hull aren't a milllion miles away from a heap of places.

More training areas which could stand being smashed to a pulp by tracked vehicles? That will be awkward.

ZNL plan (Divide & conquer of the UK mil) - get rid of the Cav!!

I personally still believe that we need armour. Op Granby was an armour led ground campaign - maybe the next job will be again.

[ORAC]

One of the main reasons for staying was to get to run the ARRC. With the lack of support from the other members for the NATO operation in Afghanistan it is obvious that the use of the ARRC is a fantasy. It seems a very high price to pay just to maintain a couple of 2/3 star posts.

[VinRouge]

BFG going? Just the start. 25% cuts across whitehall/MOD is going to leave a few Civil servants at main building with a nasty P45 in the post.

I do Like Dr Foxes idea of chopping away dead wood to make room for the younger generation though. Brilliant plan if it saves some of our now reduced capabilities.

Question is, can we afford all their pensions?

[Gainesy]

I vaguely recall that UK is tied in to Germany till about 2020 or 2025 by some 1950s agreement, and to leave any earlier would require handing over a largish wad.

As to tanks, don't most of them stay in their hangars most of the time, being maintained to death? Honest Q, not banter.

Hmm, mebbe keep on Wainfleet as a tank range then?

[ZH875]

Isn't RAF Cosford (DCAE Cosford) going to take some grunt units from Germany, when aircraft training moves to the Troglodyte base at St Athan?

[Wrathmonk]

Isn't HQ ARRC moving to Innsworth? Clicky (http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news/Nato-troops-based-Innsworth-boost-Gloucestershire-economy-50m/article-476439-detail/article.html). Or has it all changed again?

If the RAF really is reducing by 10K and all flying training is being relocated to Valley wouldn't that free up all the Vale of York stations? And why not leave a proportion of the tanks permanently at the training grounds (in the same way the RAF had a North American Fleet at Goose Bay) and cycle the crews through when on exercise? All the other tanks can be held in care and maintenance. Simplistic I know but of course an assumption is being made that heavy armour is going to survive the next few planning rounds.

[minigundiplomat]

Isn't that what Scotlands for? Storing troops and driving tanks?

[Donkey497]

Given the state of the roads in & around Edinburgh & Glasgow this weather, a tank is almost an essential for nipping out to Tesco's for the weekly shop, as it's about the only thing with suspension which will cope with all the potholes, alleged repairs and temporary road surfaces.

Believe me it's no joke to say that I have very seriously considered a second hand Scorpion, Scimitar, or other member of the CVR(T) family to commute to work across in Fife. So, bring it on & feel free to re-establish the highland regiments as armoured corps. We'd be delighted.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

a tank is almost an essential for nipping out to Tesco's for the weekly shop

As Tesco sells alcohol, the chaps "nipping out" will need to be in plain clothes, of course.

[skippedonce]

Never say never, but at present the ARRC is most definitely planned to depart Germany for Innsworth next year, with MQ addresses already being provided to allow for school placements. 1 Sig Bde, which supports the ARRC, is due to move back in the following few years.

Cheers,

SkippedOnce

[Gainesy]

Consensus of opinion on Arrse seems to be that:

A] Liam Fox doesn't know what he's talking about.

B] Army can't afford to move.


C] Very unlikely to happen.

[barnstormer1968]

Gainesy, your idea of tanks being maintained to death, is also sadly, likely to be a thing of the past soon.

Maintaining tanks does cost money, and there is a good rumour (lucky this is a rumour site) that the C2's are going to now be 'stored' rather than 'maintained' to save money.
While this will of course save money in the short term, it is pretty obvious that once a tank has been in storage for some time, then it is not much use, as parts will have rusted/seized/gone flat/crashed.:(

[AlpineSkier]

@Finnpog

Re: Your comment about repatriating the spending power of the troops concerned....


I don't know if it is continuing but certainly in the past ( read about it prob 10 years ago )the FRG used to pay the UK many millions per year as recompense for the loss to the British economy of BAOR waes spent in FRG.