Soldier refused service in Witney pub . . . because he was in uniform

[BEagle]

This report in the local press seems somewhat confused - the pub itself says that the local RAF station has told them not to serve uniformed personnel, but the station seems to have a different view.

Soldier refused service in Witney pub . . . because he was in uniform (From Oxford Mail) (http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/4749997.Soldier_refused_service_in_Witney_pub_______because_ he_was_in_uniform/)

What actually is the rule these days? I thought that one of Incapability Brown's utterances was that military personnel should be encouraged to wear uniform in public nowadays?

Back in the 1950s, I'm told that a weary tank crew on exercise went into a German pub for a cold beer. Only to be told "We do not serve British soldiers in this pub". The tank crew left quietly; shortly afterward the noise of an engine and squealing of tracks was heard, followed by the crash of breaking glass as the tank's gun was traversed through the pub window. The occupants of the pub wisely legged it; shortly afterwards a blank round was fired into the pub, shattering every bottle and glass in the place.... When the dust had settled the tank commander reappeared and announced to the dazed pub keeper "You won't be serve ****ing anyone in this pub now, will you Fritz!"

[VinRouge]

I always thought it was against the rules to drink whilst on duty anyway?

[Jumping_Jack]

It is.....

[VinRouge]

I suppose they could be going in for a coke, pie and chips! :ok:

Ah well, the cross keys, another pub I shant be visiting from now on then.

[dakkg651]

According to our SROs. Wearing of uniform in public is to be encouraged but the rules on entering licensed premises are still restricted to funerals or official functions.

The spokesperson for the pub chain quoted this so they must have been advised fairly officially by someone.

I don,t know if Army rules are different but, if not, it would seem, sadly, that the soldiers in this case were in the wrong.

[JimNich]

'Twas the same in 80s Germany. Spent two and a half years putting many Deutchmarks across the counter at the HannenFass in Gutersloh, only to be told one evening "We do not serve the British here anymore" (not just the military note, but 'The British' in their entirety). Most dischuffed.
As for not drinking on duty, cobblers! It wasn't so very long ago that all the Snecks and Os used to toddle off to their respective messes for a stiff couple at lunchtime. :eek:

What the rules are now though, I'm not sure. However, in these days when Commanders are paranoid about their careers being tarnished by one of their troops being photographed, by our responsible and civic minded press, actually drinking some alcohol (perish the thought), I wouldn't be surprised if there is a ban on being in a pub in uniform (there certainly is with some companies in civvy strasse). :{

[im from uranus]

The Cross Keys was always a bit of a dump anyway. They should of gone to the Red Lion across the Market Square where the food was always better and Ian et al would have welcomed them with open arms..... Oh the memories.. or lack of them :}

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

The last time I went into a pub (to eat, of course), in rig, the landlord went into a state of near panic. He thought it was spot check by Customs and Excise! Still, easy mistake.

This "should you, shouldn’t you" argument is remarkably circular. Apart from the usual requirement of not bringing the Service into disrepute, guidance from “above” is remarkably vague (suits me). It is clear, though, that the new age Puritans are alive, well and living there.

[chevvron]

My local Sainsbury is adjacent to Pirbright/Deepcut etc and there are always Army uniforms in there, a few buying booze but mostly food; I suppose this will be banned next.

[cornish-stormrider]

Why does command not just allow it but put a caveat on it saying anyone who gets daft or drunk in uniform is going to get the worlds worst issue of jankers - and make it stick.

I think it would do much good for HM forces to be treated like grown-ups and told - yes, you can drink in uniform but on no account dishonour this uniform or bring the service into disrepute. Secondly why do the pubs not do a promotion with a little sticker on the door saying either yes or no to uniforms coming in - we would then just go to the uniforms welcome...

Job done - now who do I see about my fee?

[Blacksheep]

It wasn't all that long ago (1960s) when wearing civilian clothes at any time other than when on leave was a privilege that required written permission. We reported to the guardroom for inspection of our papers, to ensure that we were suitably authorised, before being allowed out on the streets in "mufti". At that time, BR would only issue a ticket in exchange for a travel warrant if you were in uniform, unless you were an officer - who must be wearing a lounge suit. The situation changed only after the last of the National Servicemen had finally been de-mobilised. It says much for the state of the nation that our servicemen now have to creep around disguised as civilians, as if ashamed of their uniform. :(

BS.
Grumpy Old Man and proud of it.

[BEagle]

It was at least reassuring to read:
The pair crossed the road and were served at another pub. A member of the public offered to pay for their meals.
These lads were in town manning an Army recruiting stand - and were hardly the type of person to act improperly in any way inside a pub. Were they expected to change out of uniform just for the 'privilege' of doing what any other member of the public can do - have lunch in a pub?

Whatever happened to commonsense?

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Whatever happened to commonsense?

Come now BEagle, you of all people know better than to include MOD and commonsense in the same arena.
Back in the 70's (I know - knackered old fart) a fair percentage of uniformed HQSTC officers (up to 2*) could be found imbibing in a local pub as well as eating and flirting with the local talent. They tell me it was reminiscent of the Second World War!

[Mr C Hinecap]

Regulations are quite clear and don't need changing. Uniformed personnel should not be in pubs. The 'good ole days' are long gone and, despite the new-found love of the Armed Forces, joe public doesn't want pished troops in uniform all over the place. Suggesting that drinking in uniform is OK as long as you don't get hammered is laughable and demonstrates how far away some people are from the real world.

These lads were in town manning an Army recruiting stand - and were hardly the type of person to act improperly in any way inside a pub. Were they expected to change out of uniform just for the 'privilege' of doing what any other member of the public can do - have lunch in a pub?

Newsflash - other sources of food are available. Regulations are not new - uniform means no pub - they are at fault, not the landlord.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Suggesting that drinking in uniform is OK as long as you don't get hammered is laughable and demonstrates how far away some people are from the real world.

Could you explain further Mr H? Is this your real world we are talking about or do we all share in it? Is the real world one of fun, fear, excitement, danger and responsibility or is it a proscribed socialists ideal where our "masters " know best?

[TEEEJ]

Hasn't this been covered in several threads before? The no pub rules are tri-service

RAF

'0113.

Occasion on which uniform is not to be worn.

b. Visits to licensed premises (including when not consuming alcohol), except when specifically approved by the Chain of Command.'

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/96453EF0_ABE4_1A8E_F5DFFE866A594026.pdf

During 2008 the media covered the story when the MoD issued the rules governing the wearing of uniform in public. The specific 'no pub' rule was highlighted in The Mirror.

Troops ordered to wear uniforms everywhere but in the pub - mirror.co.uk (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2008/10/25/troops-ordered-to-wear-uniforms-everywhere-but-in-the-pub-115875-20836880/)

TJ

[goudie]

joe public doesn't want pished troops in uniform

Why is it always assumed that men in uniform go into a pub, with the sole intention of getting drunk? A most bigoted view in my opinion.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Hasn't this been covered in several threads before? The no pub rules are tri-service

It may well have been....... but it still doesn't make the rules right or appropriate.
I do, however, feel that this may be an old un's v young un's spat with no real outcome except of course those of us who remember the Gut, HK, and Bugis St are right!!:cool:

[racedo]

The no entry to Licensed Premises is there for a reason as people have stated.

However most pubs serving food sell a lot more food that Alcohol so they are probably more closer in designation to a Restaurant than a boozer.

There is a real difference here as clearly the 2 people concerned went to ANOTHER pub for a meal which was the clear intent of entry into first premises.

Given the nature of the work the 2 people were doing, I may be wrong but i would hazard a guess that they were unlikely to go back to their stand reeking of alcohol.

Common sense ain't that common.

[durty_folker]

Recruiting sergeants in pubs :confused: Whatever next :=

Just make sure your tankard has a glass bottom :ok:

[steamchicken]

I would guess the pub staff had been told not to serve "u18s or police officers on duty" - which is what it says in the Licensing Act - and they ad libbed from that.

[Neptunus Rex]

In Australia, if drinking in Pubs in uniform on Anzac Day were to be outlawed, there would be a revolution!

http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/beer3.gif

[Double Zero]

In the late 1980's, self and a BAe colleague visited an apparently pleasant pub in Guildford, Surrey.

The service ( by Irish staff, what a coincidence ) was appalling, and despite the place being virtually empty we were asked to move so that a more profitable family could have our seats, placing us on uncomfortable seats by a draughty open door, with no view.

On the way out via a different door, we saw a sign, " NO Forces Personnel served here ".

I still take that to mean anyone young & fit with a short haircut, taking objection to any uniform just being an added bonus.

Guildford is indeed quite a violent town, largely thanks to the surrounding gypsy camps, and several pubs ( some in what would think surprisingly high class areas ) are known as drug supply points run by gypsies, including, I found later, guess where ?

Safe to say that while I am not and never have been directly in the forces, just worked with / for them, if I ever see a pub or shop with a ' no forces ' sign, I take my business elsewhere, having first explained to the nearest thing to a manager possible, why.

[BEagle]

There was actually a pretty reasonable Editorial in today's Oxford Mail about this:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/zxzxz.jpg
Ban sends out the wrong message

The answer to whether uniformed service personnel should be free to go into pubs is one that must be guided by common sense.

Guardsman Brad Thomas was shocked that he and fellow Grenadier Jimmy Nuttal were refused service when they stopped for lunch in the Cross Keys pub in Witney while recruiting in the town.

The pub was under the impression RAF Brize Norton had issued an edict that personnel in uniform should not be served. While this is not true, more general guidance is againt going into a pub in uniform unless it is connected to an event such as a wedding or a funeral.

But it must be a case of degrees.

A large group of service personnel on a night out would potentially attract trouble, and so you can appreciate military chiefs' desire to play safe.
But two men out recruiting and looking for lunch and a soft drink in the middle of the day is surely a different proposition.

One of the cores justifying our current conflicts is to preserve our freedoms. If our servicement are not free to pop into a pub for lunch without fearing that their uniforms will attract aggression, then what freedoms are we fighting for?

And what type of message did this episode send to those potential recruits the two guardsmen were speaking to who then saw them turned away for wearing the uniform of their own country?

[vecvechookattack]

There is of course a very good reason why the MOD ban the wearing of Uniform in a Public house.

[Chugalug2]

R O G:
...those of us who remember the Gut, HK, and Bugis St are right!!
Well indeed, but as the latter was Out of Bounds, to appear there in Uniform would merely have been adding fuel to the fire. The result would inevitably have been that well practiced dramatic scenario in which Snowdrop intones with Puritanical solemnity; "In which establishment I encountered the accused, whom I now recognise. He stated that I could buy my own, or words to that effect. I then proceeded to caution him whereupon he announced that his companion was both a lady and a very dear friend".

[Mr C Hinecap]

Could you explain further Mr H? Is this your real world we are talking about or do we all share in it? Is the real world one of fun, fear, excitement, danger and responsibility or is it a proscribed socialists ideal where our "masters " know best?

I'm talking about the world of being in a position of responsibility. I'm talking about something like being a Flight Commander in charge of a flight of young men and women. I'm talking about young and impressionable and occasionally daft lads and lasses who get into the poo when out and about drinking. They do that quite a bit you know. These days. The last place we want them drinking in uniform is off camp.

[Two's in]

Why is it always assumed that men in uniform go into a pub, with the sole intention of getting drunk? A most bigoted view in my opinion.

Hardly an outlandish conclusion, given that's what the general population seem intent on doing every time they enter a Public House.

Guildford is indeed quite a violent town, largely thanks to the surrounding gypsy camps, and several pubs ( some in what would think surprisingly high class areas ) are known as drug supply points run by gypsies, including, I found later, guess where ?

I think you'll find Guildford was a violent town due to Jerry Adams and Martin McGuinness's mates blowing up two feckin pubs in the 1974 killing 4 squaddies (two WRAC) and a civilian. Hence the sign I would guess.

[x213a]

Never had any problems when based at Drake and nipping across the road to the pub in rig at lunchtimes.

[racedo]

A large group of service personnel on a night out would potentially attract trouble,

And could probably handle it themselves reasonably well.

[Roland Pulfrew]

vecvechookattack There is of course a very good reason why the MOD ban the wearing of Uniform in a Public house.

And it is......................?

When I joined in the early 80s no-one used to bat an eyelid if you went into a pub and had a couple of beers in uniform. In fact you were positively welcomed. Oh how things have changed. Mind you I blame these two for drinking in Witney, should have gone to Burford, Clanfield, Bampton or any of the Wychwoods!! Much nicer!!;)

[BEagle]

As the recruiting display was in Market Square, the nearest place to have a bite of lunch was probably the Cross Keys.

Hardly unreasonable for them to pop in for a quick snack, in my opinion.

The Oxford Mail's editorial was quite reasonable, I thought.

I agree with your assessment of other Cotswold watering holes though, Roly! Incidentally, the infamous Osprey in Soweto has been closed for years now and is slowly falling apart. A pity that, although Defence Estates have cleared most of the seedy 'crack houses', eyesores such as the Osprey and the disused petrol station next to it remain such blots on the landscape.

[im from uranus]

Incidentally, the infamous Osprey in Soweto has been closed for years now and is slowly falling apart.

When I was last there in March it had totally gone!:D

[BEagle]

Compare such nannying nonsense with the US.....

Some years ago, whilst waiting for a bit to arrive for our broken FunBus at McConnell AFB, we were having lunch and a beer in an establishment some of you might know - Hooters :ok:.

Shortly after we arrived, 4 USAF pilots in flight suits entered - they were on a cross-country in a couple of T-37s and had stopped by for lunch. No-one batted an eyelid at this; it seemed to be a normal everyday occurence.

Mind you, I don't know whether the scourge of political correctness would allow such things nowadays.....:uhoh:

[Mr C Hinecap]

A pedant would point out that, this includes any premises where the sale of alcohol is licensed, including many supermarkets.

ALWAYS assume NEVER check

Actually - someone who had worked in the industry would tell you that licensed premises are where alcohol could be purchased AND consumed rather than just purchased. In old money, one is an 'on' license and the other an 'off' license. Thanks for calling.


Out of interest - how many of the hand-wringing permissives on this thread have actually been commanders of flights or squadrons of non-flying airmen and women?

[goudie]

Out of interest - how many of the hand-wringing permissives on this thread have actually been commanders of flights or squadrons of non-flying airmen and women


Why the interest?

[pr00ne]

Double Zero,

Heh, you missed gays, blacks, Islamists and women in your nasty little prejudiced xenophobic rant!

You clearly know a very different Guildford from the one I spend a considerable amount of time in and around.

Get over your problem with Gypsies!

[Ray Dahvectac]

Actually - someone who had worked in the industry would tell you that licensed premises are where alcohol could be purchased AND consumed rather than just purchased. In old money, one is an 'on' license and the other an 'off' license. Thanks for calling.

Not so. A premises licence authorises the premises in question to carry out licensable activities. Any business or premises providing one or more of the three licensable activities listed below will need a premises licence:


The sale or supply of alcohol.
Provision of regulated entertainment
Provision of late night refreshment


So no doubt the Fun Police (of which you seem to be OC) could enforce the quoted regulation ("Visits to licensed premises (including when not consuming alcohol), except when specifically approved by the Chain of Command.") in the case of someone popping into Sainsburys to do a bit of shopping on the way home without a note from their Flight Commander.

ETA: Sorry, forgot to say ... Thank you for calling.

[Two's in]

we were having lunch and a beer in an establishment some of you might know - Hooters .

Beagle, you were obviously just there for their world famous curly fries...

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Get over your problem with Gypsies!

All hints and tips on that would be gratefully accepted. If you could also get back the stuff they have "acquired", the CFI of my flying club would be very grateful.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Ray - many variations on definitions - I used

premises in respect of which a premises licence or temporary event notice has effect under the Licensing Act 2003 to authorise the supply of alcohol (within the meaning of section 14 of that Act) for consumption on the premises;

which the SIA use - and works for me.

goudie - I believe Aircrew have a different view to those who have spent time as commanders of airmen and women.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

I believe Aircrew have a different view to those who have spent time as commanders of airmen and women.

Probably, and also why they are aircrew, probably.
I think you might amend the quote to say that "some of" those etc., because as OC "B" Flight part of my duties were to deputise for the Sqn JENGO and he and his ilk including the Sqn WO were quite human and shared similar views to aircrew. Could it be possible that you are the one out of step.. or is it just the modern way?:)

[Mr C Hinecap]

I think it must be the modern way - I doubt I was old enough to drink when you were OC B Flight.

[JimNich]

well, however you interpret them, I guess the rules is the rules and thats that, for better or for worse.

Douglas Bader said something about them I believe. :ok:

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

I doubt I was old enough to drinkProbably not born Mr H......and therein lie the differences--the generation gap.
I think I respect you and your views and whilst it will not stop me from remembering my days, I sadly concede that they are now mostly irrelevant, or so my middle aged sons tell me!
Back to uniforms in pubs. I suspect that most servicemen would not want to wear it when socialising, but for those who, like BEag's example, find themselves in that situation where it is not inappropriate, the sledge hammer to crack a nut approach of Military authorities seems daft. :*

[cazatou]

Mr C Hinecap

Regarding your statement:

"I believe Aircrew have a different view to those who have spent time as commanders of Airmen and women."

It is some considerable time since I retired from the RAF, but on Detatchments on Active Service in the 1960's /70's/ 80's and 90's the Detatchment Commander was - in every case - General Duties Branch.

[Hedfanwr]

I was in a local pub/restaurant at 1745 on Friday evening 20th when in walked a Group Captain in shirt sleeve order, waved to the barman and proceeded to the eating area. Obviously no problem there!!!

[vecvechookattack]

And so you approached him and said to him

"You do realise Sir, that it is forbidden to wear uniform in a Public House"

Or did you skulk away, turn your head and ignore it...? Who is at fault then..????

[akula]

My post that Mr C H quoted seems to have disappeared, do the mods remove posts? I don't think it was offensive or infringed any of the etiquette surrounding posting.

[cazatou]

vecvec

Your #48

Did it escape your notice that Hedfanwr is a 68 yr old Civilian? In addition, it may well be that the Public House also provided B&B and that the Gp Captain was staying there whilst on an Official Visit to Industry etc. An arrangement that I encountered on several occasions during my service.

[Mr C Hinecap]

cazatou - you misunderstand me. I don't equate CO with OC - a Det Cdr or Stn Cdr has several levels of management between them and the airmen who are experienced in flight and squadron commanding.
My point is that aircrew generally don't have any experience of day to day management and leadership of non-commissioned personnel. JOCC was a real eye-opener when us blunt types watched the aircrew 'catch up' on report-writing, discipline procedures, charges and interview techniques that we'd used since day 1.
I don't know any aircrew who have had the fear of a Friday morning after hearing the lads got into a 'bit of bother' down town on Thursday night - or that had to deal with the aftermath of a Sqn beercall that went a bit wrong. This is a part of why I see such libertarian views from the aircrew on this thread.
Discipline has taken a dive in recent years as we've got a bit more fluffy. Younger recruits reflect society and behaviour that would never have been tolerated is now the norm - including more drink-related trouble. I'm very much up for having a good time, but self-policing rules on being in pubs in uniform are crazy. The line is drawn at the door and that is where it should remain.

[TheWizard]

My point is that aircrew generally don't have any experience of day to day management and leadership of non-commissioned personnel.

I don't know any aircrew who have had the fear of a Friday morning after hearing the lads got into a 'bit of bother' down town on Thursday night - or that had to deal with the aftermath of a Sqn beercall that went a bit wrong. This is a part of why I see such libertarian views from the aircrew on this thread.


Nothing like a bit of generalization to raise the stakes is there?! 'Generally' based on who and where?
It may surprise you to know that quite a few of us 'aircrew' are responsible for junior ranks annual assessments and career development these days. :)

You either haven't been near a Sqn for some time or you are dangling your ever baited hook again?

[minigundiplomat]

My point is that aircrew generally don't have any experience of day to day management and leadership of non-commissioned personnel. JOCC was a real eye-opener when us blunt types watched the aircrew 'catch up' on report-writing, discipline procedures, charges and interview techniques that we'd used since day 1.
I don't know any aircrew who have had the fear of a Friday morning after hearing the lads got into a 'bit of bother' down town on Thursday night - or that had to deal with the aftermath of a Sqn beercall that went a bit wrong. This is a part of why I see such libertarian views from the aircrew on this thread.
Discipline has taken a dive in recent years as we've got a bit more fluffy. Younger recruits reflect society and behaviour that would never have been tolerated is now the norm - including more drink-related trouble. I'm very much up for having a good time, but self-policing rules on being in pubs in uniform are crazy. The line is drawn at the door and that is where it should remain.


Bullsh1t!!!!!!

[Mr C Hinecap]

which part mgd - I can back it up.

Wizard - generally because I've only met those in enforced ground tours reporting on anyone. Generally because none of those on my JOCC had ever written a report, heard a charge, conducted an interview or had any leadership of real people on the ground.

[minigundiplomat]

All of it.

That's like me saying ground trades do not understand airpower because they don't fly.

It's a huge assumption based on generalisation. For a normally semi-coherent voice on here, I expected better from you mate.

[Mr C Hinecap]

am I wrong to say that most aircrew never command a flight of airmen or women? I don't think so. Flying sqn cdrs have JENGOs and SENGO to manage most of the troops for them.

Most ground trades don't understand air power per se. Most ground trades (and branches before the new IOT and ICSC) didn't either. Why do you think ICSC was bumped up to 8 wks and most of the HAWC was put into it? We haven't been taught air power doctrine up until that point. There is a sort of understanding of air power, but the real doctrine has only recently been broadcast to the masses.

[NP20]

I have to say that on the basis of twenty-something years of Service as an airman I agree with Mr Hinecap. Outside of the eng personnel on a typical fg sqn there are generally only a handful of airmen (NCA aside) for the tens of JO Aircrew to have experience of managing, and in many cases these will be 'managed' by Ops Spt officers, particularly the Opsys and Int personnel. These ratios do not lend themselves for the majority of JO Aircrew to actually manage/lead/career develop us enlisted personnel.

There will obviously be exceptions, as TheWizard notes, but this surely isn't the norm for the majority of JO Aircrew. Or was the collective experience of those aircrew types on Mr H's JOCC an anomaly?

He's right about the average ground trade airman's knowledge of Air Power as well. There has been a concerted effort to increase this level of knowledge with lectures/modules now included at RTS, the various courses at ACS and by FDS at station level, but it still has a long way to go; I for one welcome it.

[PPRuNe Pop]

The last few posts are having a significant thread creep. Back to the topic please.

[Whenurhappy]

I'll have to agree with Mr C. Hinecap. Service personnel in uniform and drinking in a public place do not go together. Even in behaviour is checked, it is a red rag to a bull when it comes to public perceptions. Perhaps the hotel in question didn't handle it well, and there are occasions when one does eat in a pub in uniform, but commonsense should previal.

I have been a flight commander, and I have also spent time in Aldershot: both of these experiences support the rule of abstinence in public places. I might add that alcohol on operations should be a no-no; in spite of 'toucan' rules, I have witnesses - and intervened - on several occasions when operational performance has been jepordised by alcohol.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Not really a thread drift. I was, rather clumsily, trying to show why I thought we had differing views on the same topic. The more peer-orientated world of aircrew produces a different experience and view to that of ground branches who have been flight commanders with day to day responsibilities for airmen and women.

[JimNich]

Probably highlightng the difference between leadership and management. Having served on both sides of the fence my opinion is that the ground trades tend to the latter and the air trades to the former, for very good reasons (I stress they are not mutually exclusive nor universal).

Whichever side you fall on, I still believe that commanders should have the autonomy to either allow or disallow the men and women in their charge to go into a pub in uniform if the situation requires it (from either a managers or leaders perspective). The situation this thread relates to is a case in point.

I agree with Mr C on the thread creep, I saw where you were coming from. Nice to see a thread so well argued from all sides with very little degradation into slanging matches. :ok:

[BEagle]

Whichever side you fall on, I still believe that commanders should have the autonomy to either allow or disallow the men and women in their charge to go into a pub in uniform if the situation requires it (from either a managers or leaders perspective). The situation this thread relates to is a case in point.

In other words, to exercise discretion and issue relevant advice, rather than following some diktat designed to stop uniformed personnel causing alcohol-fuelled problems in the public eye?

The sort of person trusted to run a recruiting session in the middle of a market town is, I would strongly suggest, quite capable of being trusted to have a quiet pie-and-pint (:eek:) lunch between recruiting sessions.

As for those who might think that inappropriate consumption of alcohol is a 'junior ranks' issue - well, you should have been in supposedly 'dry' Saudi Arabia in 1990-91 during GW1. Some of the worst offenders were amongst those of the highest ranks in theatre........

Although the expression of shock and horror on the faces of the French DC-8 Sarigue crew when told the answer to their question about the location of the hotel bar was, I have to say, utterly priceless!

[BEagle]

More from this week's Witney Gazette:

RAF Brize Norton has admitted it may have contacted pubs in West Oxfordshire in the past to tell them not to serve soldiers in uniform.

Pubs in both Carterton and Witney have claimed they have had orders from the nearby RAF base, but until now, the base has denied making contact.

However, a spokesman for the base said that, although there had been no official communication between pubs and the base, an officer, who had now left, might have spoken to landlords asking them not to serve personnel.

Last week, Guardsman Brad Thomas and fellow Grenadier Guard Jimmy Nuttal were working for an Army recruitment team when they stopped for lunch at the Cross Keys pub, in Market Street, Witney.

But as they looked at the menu, they were told to leave because the pub would not serve members of the Armed Forces wearing uniform.

Steve Kemp, of Manor Road, Carterton, said he had witnessed a similar incident at the Beehive, in Black Bourton Road, Carterton, a few months ago.

He said that up to 15 soldiers in uniform were told that they would not be served, so they went to a nearby charity shop, where they bought and changed into dresses before returning.

Bus driver Mr Kemp, who was having a drink in the pub at the time, said: “The soldiers were waiting for a plane from Brize Norton.

“They spent a couple of quid each on the dresses from a charity shop, and then when they were finished, they took the dresses back to the charity shop.”

It is not known where the soldiers were from or where they were flying to.

Beehive manager, Steve Patterson, did not recall the incident, but claimed the pub had been asked by RAF Brize Norton not to serve anyone in uniform, as did the owner of the Cross Keys pub.

He said: “We do it to avoid any confrontation with the base. They have asked us not to serve anyone in uniform.

“I would quite cheerfully serve them on a personal level.

“I served in the Armed Forces for 12 years. I have no gripes with the military. However, there is no point in me doing it on my own if all the pubs in the area have been asked the same thing.”

Personnel in the Navy, Army, or RAF are banned from entering any pub in uniform, unless it is for a funeral or wedding.

Last night, RAF Brize Norton spokesman, Katie Zasada, said: “As far as I know, there has been no communication to Carterton pubs or any other pubs not to serve personnel in uniform.

“That is not to say that at one point there wasn’t a telephone conversation with an officer here and some of the pubs.

Ms Zasada added: “I can’t say for definite, but there was a bit of a feeling that he had phoned up the pubs to reduce the amount of alcohol-fuelled trouble.

“The situation is that as it stands that it is quite clear in regulations that personnel in uniform do not go into pubs, unless specifically authorised.”

Mr Kemp, 51, called for the ban to be overturned.

He said: “I reckon it should be lifted now.

“It’s like kids in school uniform.

“If kids are playing up, you can distinguish which schools they are from, but that’s in schools and not for adults.”

He added: “These lads are brilliant lads, and they don’t cause trouble.”

There's an Oxfam shop close to the Cross Keys, so perhaps next time....

One wonders whether the pub would serve someone dressed as, say, a Star Trek character - or as an SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer ?

[JimNich]

.....whom I believe is now working in an aquisition office somewhere in Frankfurt Main. :eek:

[Mr C Hinecap]

Beagle - quoting others who agree with you does not make your views any more relevant or sensible on this topic. Laws and rules and regulations are usually there for the lowest common denominator - eg most people know that driving drunk is a bad idea, but there is a law for all.

Alcohol is a part of Service life, but less than when you served. Your reminiscing about those rather far back in a theatre drinking is a long way from current ops for most. I used to despise working for 'old school' senior officers who would often have a pint or two at lunchtime - it was offensive and divisive and plain embarrassing.

[BEagle]

Laws and rules should never be aimed at the lowest common denominator, they should represent the organisation or society's required standards.

Your presumption that the situation I described was 'rather far back in theatre' is incorrect - unless you mean time rather than distance. It was lucky that the call-out for night 1 of Desert Storm wasn't a few hours later, or certain childish pi$$-heads would have been at 'Cable and Witless' drinking illegally at their planned "It didn't happen" party and would have been incapable of flying.....

Roll the clock forward a few years and a crew who had been drinking until late in an operational theatre were stopped at the gate and breathalysed on their way in to work. So they parked their car at the gate - then went flying.

I'm glad to hear that things aren't the same these days.

However, I still maintain that a couple of lads manning a recruiting stand can be trusted to behave correctly during a lunch break in a nearby pub.

[muttywhitedog]

Nice bit of squirming from Katie in the report above, and I note how she tries to pin the blame on another officer. She'll go far!!!

[cazatou]

Mr C Hinecap

It is obvious from your Posts - and seemingly confirmed by the age quoted for you under your user name - that you have no experience of operating away from Base in an environment where there is no instant advice or assistance available from "Higher Authority".

For people such as BEagle and myself that was a fact of life in the '60s and early '70s. There was no instant communication with "Higher Authority" when operating in a Foreign Land because there was no Communication Satellite System - Radio Communication was dependant on the time of day and the height of the ionosphere! Aircraft Captains had to make decisions - there was no-one else to do so for them.

One example for you - in 1969 I was the Co-Pilot on an Andover which landed at Timehri in Guyana. We were met by the Acting High Commisioner who asked if we could do an Aeromedical Evacuation of a young VSO volunteer who had been riding his moped along a jungle track when he met a 3 ton lorry coming the other way. Neither the High Commision nor ourselves were able to establish contact with UK or our Detatchment HQ - so we flew that sortie without any authorisation. There were no recriminations because that was exactly the sort of decision Junior Officers were expected to be able to make as a matter of routine.

One of the prime objectives in any future conflict will be to knock out the Opposition's Command and Control systems. We should expect Junior Personnel to be able -and willing -to shoulder the burden of responsibilty if so required.

[PPRuNe Pop]

There is a hint that one or two of you could turn this thread could turn into a p****g contest, the instant it does it will go into the bin.

The answer is to avoid niggardly and deliberate snipes. Fair enough? :=

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

The MoD may be a bit sniffy about buying beer whilst in uniform but seem to be OK about serving it (artistic licence there as I do note that it’s Fosters);

[/URL]http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/F015B554-B0AF-486A-BD67-B5BB192B5E35/0/DES20100220014_2.jpg

All very respectable though, as explained [URL]http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/SoldierToastsTeamBehindOspreyBodyArmour.htm (http://defenceintranet.diiweb.r.mil.uk/NR/rdonlyres/21686660-1B91-46A8-AC30-2DD5D592C93F/0/DES20100220014_2.jpg) but I couldn’t resist it.

[Pontius Navigator]

Late to the thread but it is perhaps arguable that drinking in uniform might be better than getting paralytic out of it.

In uniform you know you are visibile and will, hopefully, behave. Out of uniform, while demonstrable 'off-duty', you might think you are 'covert' but the public will soon twig that you are military. In the subsequent court appearance the gentlemen of the press will make it quite clear that you are military.

And in pubs in uniform officially?

Out on Otterburn as Distaff while the studes are given time to construct hides. In the pub but no need to drink.

Or OC of JACIG with visiting Russian general at lunchtime - everyone into civvies in the car park?

Or being told by Wittering that we would have to go down town Stamford as we would not be allowed in the mess in flying kit?

Or my colonel having lunch in our local hostelry.

The rules would be better as guidance.