Train now or hold out?

[aimskyhigh88]

Hey Guys,

Ive just finished my degree and am in a position to start my training. My question is to those who have done it, would it be worth me starting my training now or waiting a year or so? I would really like to travel a bit and see the world before sticking my head down and obtaining my CPL but at the same time i really want to start flying. I know the industry is a bit fragile at the moment and there are no jobs especially for such low hour pilots.

Would it be worth my time going overseas for a year or so, come back and get hard into it? That way i dont have the HUGE debt over my head aswell as being eligible still for any ab-intio cadet schemes that may surface during the next year.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

[Too low]

Would it be worth my time going overseas for a year or so, come back and get hard into it?
The answer is of course! :ok:
An experience abroad, is allways a valuable experience.
But I would add, why hold on and spend the big bunch of money all at once, while you could do it all at the same time, and spread the money wisely and slowly...

Now that you have a degree, find a job in an other country, start you ppl then your ATPL by distance learning, you'll end up, with a job experience, an experience abroad, your ppl and ATPL in your pocket and if you do it right, a few £/$/€ to pay your CPL/IR.

[One9iner]

You say if you travel for a year "that way I won't have the HUGE debt over my head".

What debt are you in after Uni?
What/Who would pay for your year of travel?
What difference does it make regarding the money required for training whether you start now or in 12 months?

:confused:

You will invariably be answered with a whole lot of "wait for a year" answers on Pprune, but I don't understand your logic regarding debt.

By the way, debt will be more expensive in a year.

[shaun ryder]

Did getting a job ever cross your mind?

You have just tossed it off at university for the last three years and now you are at odds about whether to start flying or go galavanting around the world.

Why dont you get some real life experience down the job centre and contribute to the purse of mummy and daddy instead of indulging yourself by taking a 'gap' year. Its all me me these days.

[TheBeak]

Do Not Train Now.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Get a job.

A year long holiday is a luxury you probably cannot afford and something which is only a recent phenomenon closely associated with the credit bubble that started in the late 1990's.

Historically it was only those from seriously wealthy backgrounds who spent a year galavanting around the globe as a rite of passage. To spend 1 of the 40 working years when you must earn your fortune drunk in a bar in SE Asia is neither improving, wise, beneficial or useful.

If you're rich and the £80k + SSTR money means not much to you and your family then go ahead. Those Vietnamese bar owners need you.

WWW


ps There won't be any prospect of proper full time paid jobs for a couple of years so maybe book an open ticket.

pps Are you suggesting you have huge debt, you could go bankrupt and then go abroad backpacking for two years until your bankruptcy is over? Thats a much more logical plan.

[Callsign Kilo]

If you think you are serious about flying, go find out. However I wouldn't go investing in any 'ab-initio' schemes, as you put it. You will need to hang on there.

If you have cash on the hip, do some serious research on the PPL front. You want to develop the right skills early on. Skills that will be transferable at a later stage (if and when you enter commercial training). Like in all things, aviation training is litered with the 'good' and the 'bad' and it's important to distinguish between the two at an early stage. Glossy publications, fancy facilities and a load of hype and bullsh1t doesn't equal top gun acadamy, if you get my drift. That counts for all levels of training.

So, if you are serious, go do a little reasearch. Talk to people (not just the 'sales' team or respective employees of a school), do a little networking, read a few books. You have bags of time on your hands so invest it wisely. A successful level of initial training to PPL level will pay off greatly when you take things to the next level. Unfortunately, I have to say, you need to regard that next level as being some distance away at the present time.

[aimskyhigh88]

Sorry guys i left out some key bits of info. I am doing a Bachelor of Aviation, and i have just finished all the uni side of the degree (so not all the degree, the other credit points come from the atpl subjects once you have done the flying requirements). I am now expected to commence flying training (on HECS or FEE-HELP, Australias student funding program) next year. So to the kind sir giving me lip about being in my mummy and daddy's purse.. think again. I have been working part time throughout my degree so i have saved some money and am ready to either not work whilst flying full time or to go spend a year abroad. Now back to my original question of is it a good time to train or would it be better to wait it out a little considering the current climate.

Oh and the debt i was talking about would be the $80,000 student loan.

Thanks guys

[Grass strip basher]

If you can delay then it would be wise to delay.... I can't imagine given the current climate anyone would say otherwise.
The fact you are on here asking the question probably means that deep down you know it is probably best to put the brakes on for a year or two (if your course allows)

[JamesTigris]

If you are budgeting then it may be worth considering the money that you will require to keep yourself employable after completing your training.

I am in training at the moment (ATPL distance learning) but of the feedback I have been getting is that it can take several years to get that first job, all the time bearing the heavy liability of keeping an ME IR current (and more than that, keeping the skills sim-check sharp).

My guiding strategy has been to have an income throughout training and jobseeking. This puts me at a disadvantage compared to the soul who goes straight from and ATPL course into a jet job (i will be close to 30 at qualification), but a whole lot better than those in their early 20s with £80k+ debt and working for £6 per hour.

If you are making financial plans, keep a contingency, work to save money, continue your part time work, but be careful about taking a year out with the career path you have chosen.

[CraigyD]

Hi guys, here is my responce. Have a back up as WWW and others have said many times. I have listened and just today been offered a trainee manager job in advertising. If all goes well, I will run my own office in a year with very high earning potential.

The plan is as follows:

I already hold a PPL so the money I will earn means I can get a share in an aircraft and enjoy my flying for a few years.

I will do ATPL distance learning early next year and take 12-18 months to complete it then get my CPL, training part time (I know this will cost more but means I don't have to leave work thus having no debt!). After this I will get an instructor rating and teach in my spare time, which I should have a fair bit of and continue to save. After a year or so, get my ME/IR and bobs your uncle I have an (f)ATPL, no debt, good work experience (both flying and non-flying) with a back up plan incase I loose my medical or the industry is still a mess (I don't intend on being an airline pilot, float planes are my aim :)!)

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO RUSH!

Thanks,

Craig

[Skyhigh86]

HOLD YOUR HORSES!!

Get a "normal job", earn some monies. Then go travelling for a bit, you would be surprised out how travelling can change some people.

Once you commit to flying your are commited big time. Revalidating your IR every year is no easy feat, and you will be surprised at how much you forget in just a year.

You are very young and should make the most of it, patience is key here(easier said than done, trust me!:))

[wangus]

Listen to WWW. I wish I had. Qualified nearly 2 years ago, without a sniff of a job. Don't rush into it, as you'll be renewing IR before you know it. I could have had a bonfire with the money I've spent on a FANTASY. The last thing to recover after a recession is jobs. I doubt we've bottomed out economically yet. Think long and hard. Not trying to be negative, just REALISTIC. (My friends at Easyjet tell me apart from core group of pilots, contract pilots are being brought in to up the numbers in busy periods, then dumped. HEARSAY let me point out. Not very appealing or encouraging for guys like me /us.) Honestly, good luck if you venture down this path. But please take seriously the comments of WWW and people in my position.
(No insults please. Just adding my 2 cents worth!)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Thanks for providing some evidential input. Your position is an extremely unpleasant one. I have seen it happen to countless other good people.

New Wannabes often remind me of WW1 soldiers cheerfully signing up together, amid excited enthusiasm, in total ignorance of the senseless slaughter that lay ahead.


WWW

[pipertommy]

Spot on WWW. Probably more chance getting a job on a Sopwith Camel at the moment:ok:

I have stopped doing IR revals, throwing money away, probably renew when I am confident that the market is turning/turned.

For now I do instructing at weekends and enjoy flying again and not having the pressure of chasing a dream.

Once more into the breach:}

Good luck everyone.

[bluelearjetdriver]

Son, I don't think any of these threads actually conveys how bad things are in the industry at the moment, so here are some pointers from personal experience:
1) Puleeeez listen to WWW's words (seek out his threads)
2) My company is about to announce approx. 150 Airbus pilot redundancies
3) Another company is about announce approximately 100 redundancies
4) My desert get-out-clause has just closed due to point 3's people getting in ahead of me (this doesn't even include the people within my own company that I am up against)
5) The UK industry is in severe shrinkage
6) The Communist, sorry Labour government is determined to kill off the industry citing "environ-mental" concerns, by taxing it out existence (using Air Pax Duty and including the airlines in the carbon trading stupidity). I don't see the Consmurfartive government being any better. Long term thinking does not reside in the British political gene pool.
7) Even going back to my old engineering career is looking very hairy.
8) I haven't even mentioned the companies that have already gone under (do some research on this)

I am not one to discourage anyone from pursuing their ambitions, but get your PPL, have some fun and get this "I wanna be an airline pilot, daddy" nonsense out of your noodles.

[Herc708]

.... to see who is ahead of you in the queue

airline employers non rated (http://www.futureairlinepilot.com/employers2.html)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

A year ago today I wrote this:


No Dave. What needs to be said is that I believe CTC have over 150 cadets either paddling in the pool or under training for whom the prospect of an airline job in 2009 is a remote one. I know of one who was recently let go by a UK airline who is applying to Boots the chemist this week for a job stacking shelves. He plans to use bankruptcy (baring a miracle) to release himself from the £90k of debt he now cannot hope to manage.

Being realistic about a negative situation is not being negative oneself. Its being realistic.

You have to hope that things are going to pick up within two years as you are already in the pool. However there isn't a shed of evidence to support that hope.

It may be that some airlines actually want to take low houred cadets willing to sign contracts on very low net pay. IF they can find a way to encourage highly paid SFO's to leave and replace them with cadets on a new recession-era cadet pay scale then there may be some reasonable job opportunities for those with 200hrs. We shall have to see.

Bottom line, only a tiny fraction of Wannabes ever read these pages and only a small minority ever pay any heed to my opinion. The schools are full still and I can't imagine a bleaker more off-putting picture than right now so until the oil actually runs out...

WWW

http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/250640-ctc-wings-cadets-thread-part-2-a-post4544338.html#post4544338



Two of the other threads worth spending a wet afternoon skimming through are:

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/335548-growing-evidence-upturn-upon-us.html

And the later pages of http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/250640-ctc-wings-cadets-thread-part-2-a.html


There are plenty more. The current situation was foretold. Here. Bluntly from mid 2007.

Presently I predict the only recruitment for at least 2 years, and more likely 3-4 if there are 100+ redundancies at the big UK charter airlines, will come in the form of Self Sponsored Type Ratings followed by seasonal or contract employment on inferior terms and conditions. Where Ryanair now is at with the £33k SSTR and Brookfield contract is, inevitably, other airline will all now follow.

Until the Wannabe cash/credit runs out this is the future.

Its pretty bleak.


WWW

[bluelearjetdriver]

www, there are not many industries where any experience you have, will actually count AGAINST you (i.e. ref. the SSTR). :ugh: :mad: :{

[blackred1443]

My recommendation would be hold of for at least 18 months, see what terms are like for new f/os then.

I think WWW is correct, not a good time to be starting out for the foreseeable future.

[MIKECR]

Well its all pretty grim but little ol low hours me finally has a job. 2 and a half years of painful wait since I finished my training, low and behold I start with a UK airline next month. Came completely out of the blue. Bonded TR and a great company, cant wait to get started. Just wanted to share a small(possibly minute!) chink of light in an otherwise doom filled abyss of gloom!:)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Oh, that's nice. Really chuffed for you. Its been a long and worrying wait for you and in the end you've scored a conventional training bond first job with (I suspect) an excellent employer.

After some more hard work for the course you'll be loving going to work within a couple of months and not many can say the same.

Enjoy it.



WWW

[BigNumber]

Congratulations Mike.

Guess we'll be seeing you on W4D / W5D then.

BN

[lpokijuhyt]

Blackred1443: I'll tell you right now what the Terms and Conditions for FOs (and any pilot for that matter) will be in 18 months......complete ****. There is your answer and you didn't even have to wait 18 months! :}

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Heh heh, good old Eastern!

Friend of mine is starting there soon, good luck et al :)

[mattyh1986]

Hi aimskyhigh

Just read your post and thought I'd let you know my situation as I was in a similar position to where you are and had a big decision to make.

Back around April/May of this year I passed selection and was 100% set on starting training, I had read all WWW warnings and put it down to him being a old grumpy man.

Anyway, the the more time went on and the date got closer to having to commit to the loan the more I kept questioning my decision to start training. Its a tough place to be especially when your so enthusiastic and determined to follow a dream. After a long time of trying to kid myself, I decided that it was too much of a risk to borrow such vast sums of money in such an uncertain time.

Like I said, it was a tough decision and a bit of a gutting conclusion when your so focused and set on reaching your goals.

Anyway, I decided I couldnt do it and that I would wait a year or 2.

I had resigned to the fact that i'm going to hold out for while, so I concluded that I may as well use the time to try and make enough money to enable myself to not have to borrow any, or if nothing else make a considerable dent in my borrowings.

Ideally I only want to wait 12 months, to go from post grad to 70k a year is a tall order so i decided to start my own business. I have been working on it ever since and am coming to the point where I am extremely close to launching it now.

My friend decided to go ahead with the course and although its like a kick in a balls when he uploads all this pictures, I know I did the right thing and I'm having so much fun starting my business.

My advice to you is ultimately do what you feel is right and follow your gut, not your heart.

I'd have loved to go travelling if I had the money, if its a viable option for you then go do it!!!!

Airliners will always need flying, come back in 12-18 months and have a look at the situation then.

I also think I ow an apology to WWW and a thank you!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I also think I ow an apology to WWW and a thank you!


My God! That's about the first time that's ever happened outside of the Private Message system.

I'm glad you've not put yourself into an almost unworkable situation and that you'll be free to enter commercial aviation at a more viable time. Undoubtably a good move to have made. Good luck with the new business.

When you get so big you need a corporate jet then bear me in mind for Chief Pilot, eh? :cool:


WWW


ps Male and often Grumpy but closer to 30 than 40 so not exactly old old..

[AlphaMale]

Train now or hold out? ... I'm holding out.

You can't really plan in the industry. I have changed my plans half a dozen times. From Zero-Hero course in the US 3 years ago (18 month course), training in South Africa when the rand was 19 to the pound as well as training with numerous schools in the UK.

Timing would never have been right if I had chosen any of them. If I had taken the US route I'd have had my fATPL 18 months ago with no sniff at a job and a £35k debt.

PPL / Night and possibly IMC as about as far as I'd push it in this climate. My ego isn’t big enough to think that in 2 years time I'll get chosen over a an ex-BMI, Zoom etc pilot with X,000hrs on jet for a job in the RHS.

I was aiming at 2012 to have my fATPL but I'm starting to wonder if the economy will settled by then, how many airlines will be in operation, whether or not they will be recruiting and how long the queue will be with redundant pilots for yesterday and tomorrow as well as ex-instructors and military pilots looking to transfer to airlines.

One day I'll have my fATPL, but for now I'm going to enjoy flying, be it in a microlight, glider or 172 and enjoying the ride to the airfield in the summer on my motorbike.

... Learn from the mistakes of others and if you take note of posters on here make sure it' WWW.

[student88]

Some interesting CVs on that site. You would have thought that after flying 150 hours from STN with easyJet some of the ATP guys would know how to spell "Stanstead".