Qantas mainline:Where to from here ?

[packrat]

In Letters to the Editor financial review (18.11.2009)was a lament from a Qantas Platinum Frequent Flyer.He explained his concerns about the shabby Qantas Cabins,the aging fleet and his disappointment with the beds on the A380.It was also pointed out that many of the faces he used to see in QF lounges he now saw in Emirates lounges.
The author conclude that Qantas was now seen as a second tier airline
The premium customers that Qantas lost during the WFC have come back but not back to Qantas
The mainline network has shrunk to its minimum and P/C seats are being removed from a number of routes.Joyce admits that Qantas got it wrong with the current configurations.Cost cutting has been ongoing for ten years.
The media has been giving qantas a hammering over its operational safety for over twelve months.
Morale amongst emlpoyees is non existant
If being the worlds best airline is your aim you need to spend money on the hard product.Emirates,Qatar,Etihad and Sing Air are perfect examples.They are perceived as premium carriers.Skytrax website is informative as to who is and who is not a premium airline
Where to for Qantas?
Will it end up being a second tier niche carrier at the bottom of the world.?
Or will it at some stage in the future begin to grow again?
At present the whole operation is under review and CR in some areas is being contemplated.The viablity of the CC off shore bases is under scrutiny as are the domestic bases.
The review should be completed some time early next year.
Roadshows will begin shortly to discuss the results of the recent Staff Engagement survey.
Alan Joyce has certainly got his hands full

[DEFCON4]

I used to have hopes that Qantas would regain some of its former glory.Those hopes have given way to reality.The emotional bond that many Australians once had with QF has been permanently severed.
The brand has been trashed beyond repair.Put an orange star on all Qantas Group aircraft and put mainline out of its misery

[bubble.head]

EXCEPTIONAL EXCEPTIONAL EXCEPTIONAL EXCEPTIONAL EXCEPTIONAL EXCEPTIONAL EXCEPTIONAL...................


There! After hearing this particular word for the 50th billion time, you are now deem a premium airline!

:mad:

[Pedota]

Brett Godrey is wondering the same thing about VB 'mainline' . . .

'Something is wrong': Virgin chief hopes airfares will rise

The Age November 19, 2009

Virgin Blue chief Brett Godfrey says he hopes airfares will return to stronger prices soon.

Addressing the Queensland Media Club on Thursday, Mr Godfrey said airfare prices, particularly international business, had fallen during the global recession.

"At the moment, particularly internationally, it’s (low prices ) not sustainable; there’s no doubt about that," he said.

"When you can get to the US for about $1200, when 15 months ago at this time of year you're were looking at $2800 to $3000, something is wrong.

"Clearly we’d like to see a return sooner rather than later (to pre-recession prices).

"And we will. It’s not that we’ve got too much capacity there. It’s just that the market has fallen off."

He said the market was not getting worse, but a detailed market update would be announced at next week's Virgin AGM.

The Pacific route connecting Australia and the US has gone from being one of the world's most profitable to a loss-making exercise for airlines over the past year.

But recently a Virgin Blue's group public affairs manager, Heather Jeffery, told Traveller that the strategy for its Pacific route airline, V Australia, was not to drive up fares.

It came on the back of analyst predictions that fares on the route would increase after V Australia was given the go-ahead by the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission for a tie-up with the route's other new player, Delta Air Lines.

Qantas was continuing to have success on its US flights, helped in part by the popularity of its A380 superjumbo service.

Passenger demand for flying on the world's largest airliner was allowing Qantas to charge up to $600 more than its rival on return flights to Los Angeles.

However, Qantas chairman Leigh Clifford recently mirrored Mr Godfrey's comments at the company's annual general meeting in Perth last month. He told shareholders that while the airline had heavy bookings, it was hard to make money with fares discounted as heavily as they were.


AAP with Craig Platt

[surfside6]

Will be interesting to see if the results are spin doctored into a positive.
The last two surveys were so woeful they were buried

[mikk_13]

From my personal experience (from some one who doesn't hate qantas because its qantas) Qantas was an absolute mess when i flew to europe last crissy.

We were late to depart brissy as the scarebus 330 was busted. Had to wait 5 hours for them to get another jet. I had a connection in singapore of course and when I asked the helpful qantas lady about what happens when'if I miss the connection, she was about as friendly and helpful as a dog eating its bone. I was terribly sorry I asked. The cabin crew were not friendly on this leg. I guess i was in economy so I was one of the cattle they were moving across the planet.
The next two flights were fine however, only thing was my entertainment this was stuffed on the way back to singapore. And the perspex stuff on the window was damaged. It appeared someone had bashed it is with a bag or something. It looked shabby and dangerous.

Now this is where is gets to the best part of trip. On the way from singa to brissy i was put into Q's old 747-200/300. I can't remember which one exactly. This thing was an absolute wreck. I thought I was flying with Air Africa. The aircraft was filthy and old. Even the Lino in the bathroom had been pulled up. It was liking going to the only porta loo at a 100 00 person rock party. It whole jet looked absolutely trashed.

My father flew the 767 from sydney to brissy the other day, and he said it was a mess aswell.

So if I have a choice I won't fly with Qantas again. I've flown with etihad and even Lufthansa and have found that to be much much better. My father doesn't want to fly qantas anymore. He says the only reason he flys with them now is because of frequent flyer points, however after flying emirates to Singapore he says he won't fly with anything else.

So if thats the impressions and feelings we have with Q, I don''t think we are the only ones. Shame really.

[ditch handle]

Unfortunately what you've experienced are largely the result of an airline that has been run [for the last 10 years] with one goal and one goal only.

To leverage the very most that management could in the way of performance bonuses for themselves.

It has to be said that in this regard they were spectacularly successful. :yuk:

As you rightly say.

"Shame really"...........

Whether the reputation of the airline as a premium carrier is salvageable or not, I think, remains to be seen.

[dragon man]

Sadly i dont think QF will ever regain its great past. It has gone to far down the tubes and become second rate as previous posts testify. Sing Air and Emirates are the carriers of first choice. When senior management stop running the airline for their own benefit (read bonus's, travel benefits and rules) then and only then may things slowly improve.

[Gingerbread]

Seems to many that the Roo won't be able to again go ahead in leaps and bounds until management can come up with ways to reduce costs other than staffing costs.

IMHO, it will also be necessary to cut employees into the ownership pie and realign executive rem with the fate of the workforce, if there is to be any real chance of pulling off a sustainable revival.

Won't be easy, but hopefully it can be done.

Hippocratic change won’t cut it. :=

[Rabbitwear]

Unfortunately the O/seas airlines were built on slave labour, QF or even Jetstar for that matter could not compete Globally with Asian and ME carriers. The Offshore CC bases are a crude attempt to compete. The other carriers have excess cash to pay for newer and better equipment, dont have much union power if any so wages can be adjusted with the seasons, this sort of efficiency could never be reached , unless the Australian public support QF 100% fill their aircraft and give the cashflow and jobs in Australia that QF deserves. If QF shrink or fail it is More jobs going offshore , nobody wants that.

[StallBoy]

Just a few Questions that need to be answered by Qantas.

What planes do they need in the future and when are they going to place some orders to replace the 747's.
As it looks very unlikely that the 787 will fly this decade or even next decade what areas of the world does Qantas see itself flying too and with what aircraft.

Does Qantas management see the A380 replacing their fleet of 747"s. The 380 is a good aircraft but very inflexible with size and load for most of the destinations Qantas flies to now and seems only able to operate to the USA and Europe.

Recently I did a trip to Buenos Aires with Qantas and would say both flights were as good as any I have experienced with any airline in the world even SA :Dbut my last flight from Los angeles to Melbourne was a total disaster if it wasn't so funny we would have cried all the way. :{

I do feel that as the 747's are retired Qantas will gradually become the "Queensland and northern territory air service" with shrinking routes and no passengers.

Let us hope with Jeff gone some smart decisions will be made, it really would be sad to see Australia with so many people flying overseas every day without a national carrier!!!

[Ka.Boom]

Qantas has $3.5 Billion in cash reserves.It needs to improve the hard product,advertise like crazy and improve morale.Low morale reduces productivity,increases sick leave and attrition.
Grow the network,increase revenue and better spread fixed unit costs

[OlAME]

Well all the whingers, knockers , layabouts , bludgers and hopless managers who inhabit parts of Qantas must be happy. The hardworkers in places like the engine shop and such equally glamourous places will be worried to death at the damage being done . When you are all out of very well paid jobs , you may wake up , but then again you won't because someone else is always to blame , it could never be YOU . Could it!

[Metro man]

QF mainline are in a difficult position. Australia is a small market at the end of the line and it's not a hub like Dubai, Singapore or Hong Kong. EK, SQ and CX can compete on the SYD - LHR route against QF, and also offer numerous other cities on their networks. Any city in the world can be reached non stop from the Middle East and EK are simply joining up the dots via their home base. Qatar and Etihad are trying to do the same

They have a lower cost base and don't have to worry about unions.

Best hope for mainline is to concentrate on the major routes such as LHR and LAX with new aircraft and an improved product. Stop paying ridiculous bonuses to management and break the union strangle hold ie pay people according to the work they perform rather than the disruption they could cause if they went on strike. Look for efficiencies and get the costs down.

Ryan Air has become bigger than British Airways by focusing on its costs and work practices. QF however need offer a good product as well in order to compete with its 5* competitors on 14 hour flights.

Unless QF do this they will need to find someone prepared to dole out money to make up their losses or face bankrupcy.

Japan Airlines have enough money for about another ten days of operations at the moment, definitely worth watching what happens there. Air India are looking for $BILLION + bail out from the Indian government. Airline accountants through out the world are putting red refills in their pens.

I would love to have worked for a nationalised airline during the 1970s. Good pay, didn't work too hard and job security. Government cash to burn as needed. Got to be realistic though, things have changed.

[YPJT]

Guess I better think about burning up my ff points before they become worthless.:E

[DEFCON4]

The unions in Qantas today are a far cry from what they were in the 70s.
During SARS and 911 dixon asked the Unions for a wage freeze.The Unions agreed.When things got better and the unions asked for a catchup Dixon told them to take a hike.Unions at Qantas understand that the Companys survival is linked with their own.
Unions are not responsible for management cockups that have negatively affected the bottomline profit by millions....wrong aircraft,wrong configuration,EQ failure,blackberry failure,the IFE debacle...the list goes on.
Qantas is in a mess because of poor management not because of over aggressive unions.
Before anyone starts on the LAMES, they were screwed by Dixon and threatened and intimidated into signing out poorly maintained aircraft.They drew the line in the sand for safety.......your safety,my safety and the safety of the travelling public.All they asked for was 5%.Dixon and managment bonuses would have covered that.
Current mangement does not have the resolve,intellect or business acumen to elevate Qantas to the position of well respected premium carrier.The workforce needs to be well resourced and re invigorated with pride and passion for their company instead of being constantly embarrassed by its shortcomings.
The Flying Circus and Apology Airlines are still appropriate names for the national carrier

[bulstrode]

Fin Review (20/11/2009):Letters to The Editor
Corporate Affairs
Qantas Airways.
Epstein highlights Qantas Commitment to Premium service by pointing out the introduction of the next generation 737-800s and the rolling out of 20 A380s over the next ten years.
Is he kidding?
Ten years?...15 years too late !
737-800s? Wow do Qantas fly 737s to Frankfurt and LAX ?
C'mon David.You are defending the indefensible.
Have you been on a 747-400 to Frankfurt lately?
Bits hanging off the Cabin interior and two toilets blocked off because they were U/S.These are not the hallmarks of a premium carrier.
Get out of 1K and have a look at your product.Its crap !!!

[kellykelpie]

To me, Qantas needs a cultural change from within but it may be too big an ask. Competition is popping up left, right and centre and getting their hands dirty. Meanwhile QF are trying to protect what they've got as it slips away.

It must be remembered that those companies that survive the long term aren't necessarily the strongest but those willing to adapt to a changing environment. I don't think the willingness to adapt is there among the rank and file. I hope I'm wrong...

[bulstrode]

Rank and file have embraced change for over 10 years.Those that couldnt adapt have either left or been managed out of the business.
The cultural change needs to come from above.Rank and file as you call it are only as good as they are allowed to be.
There are not enough rank and file and way too many chiefs.Those that are there are way under resourced.
Compare Emirates,Singapore Airlines and Qantas.The first two are in the 21st Century.The third one is in the 19th century and blames everyone for its shortcoming instead of getting on with the job.Therein lies the problem.A management who will not accept responsibility for the mess.The names have changed.The mindset hasnt

[Pedota]

Stallboy says: Let us hope with Jeff gone some smart decisions will be made, it really would be sad to see Australia with so many people flying overseas every day without a national carrier!!!

That's a really interesting point Stallboy . . . just what does the title National Carrier mean in the case of QF? Is it an officiall status designated from the Federal Government or an accident of history? And what would it take for the mantle of National Carrier to change to another airline?

More precisely to your point . . . why will it be "sad to see Australia with so many people flying overseas every day without a national carrier"?

Just idle curiosity really.

Cheers

[Ka.Boom]

At least 51% australian owned.
If QF fell over VB could probably qualify as a national carrier.

[struggling]

According to Aviation Centre: There are big plans for Jetstar.. Most of the 100+ B787's ordered by the Qantas Group were destined for the low cost operation.....Australia's Jetstar has no doubt that the long haul path is the way to go says CEO Bruce Buchanan. 'Future long-haul expansion to Europe is a great opportunuity for Jetstar'.
And there is nothing compelling Qantas to keep the jobs in Australia. :{

[kellykelpie]

Rank and File Have Embraced Change

I mean no disrespect to any QF employee. There are just no opportunities anymore in Qantas. The fresh talent is roting at the bottom whilst those rank and file at the top defend the system...

[ditch handle]

kellykelpie,

would you care to be more specific......?

[kellykelpie]

Just look across the road and see how long it takes to get a promotion...

[dragon man]

Strong rumour that Jetstar is to anounce a tieup with AirAsia next week. Wouldnt that be interesting.

[Metro man]

Basically there are three possible scenarios:

1. QANTAS sorts itself out and returns to profitability.

2. QANTAS doesn't sort itself out and goes bust.

3. Government steps in with a bail out, probably with unpopular conditions attached.

Time frame depends on how much cash is in the bank and the rate at which it's burning up.

[600ft-lb]

1. QANTAS sorts itself out and returns to profitability.

2. QANTAS doesn't sort itself out and goes bust.

I don't know where you get those ideas from but Qantas is profitable, it was profitable last year, it would've been much more profitable if the management hadn't engaged in cartel practices in the freight division and received multi hundred million dollar fines for their behavior.

The fancy book juggling that went on to make jetstar look like the group saviour was just that, juggling.

It is tiger and virgin blue and singapore airlines and cathay pacific and emirates and delta and almost every other carrier flying around today in, into and out of australia that are the ones losing money, not Qantas.

And you think Qantas isn't subsidising jetstar operations ? If jetstar can't make money with the silver spoon they're handed everything on there is a major major problem.

[Mstr Caution]

1. QANTAS sorts itself out and returns to profitability.

As previously stated QF is profitable.

2. QANTAS doesn't sort itself out and goes bust.


Do you really believe an airline on the brink of going bust would be investing big dollars on the operation. $40M for the new check-in & bag tag facilities in Perth for example.

3. Government steps in with a bail out, probably with unpopular conditions attached.

Why the need for a bail out for a profitable airline?


Just look across the road and see how long it takes to get a promotion...


There are both positive & negative aspects to fast tracked promotions from a business point of view.

[Mstr Caution]

The fancy book juggling that went on to make jetstar look like the group saviour was just that, juggling.


Spot on, every week accounting practices are being refined to differentiate which costs are allocated to the correct division of the business.

[Transition Layer]

Just look across the road and see how long it takes to get a promotion...

pfft...quick promotions, big deal (and things aren't what they used to be at JQ/DJ anyway). If the size of your manhood is directly proportional to the number of stripes on your shoulder, then good on you!

[watch your 6]

Watch for guidance from Qantas regarding profit.Other carriers will return to profit in 2010.High yield business travellers will continue to give QF a wide berth.Dont expect much of a profit next year

[busdriver007]

QF cannot continue to blame the GFC. When things begin to improve QF will continue to lag as the money has not been spent. Premium passengers have left.....Remember it's great to save money but one must remember where the revenue comes from.....:ugh:

[jet.jackson]

Joyce needs to provide a clear direction for employees.Include them in the long term decision making process.A staff suggestion scheme would go a long way to allowing employees to participate effectively in the journey.
Strong foolishly used to say that morale was a personal problem.Studies have proved that by improving morale a company can glean a 10% productivity increase for zero cost.
Like Qantas Customers,employees have been alienated.Unhappy employees = unhappy customers.
For too long costs have been the focus of management.To the neglect of the product.It maybe a cliche but to make money in the long term you need to spend money in the short term.Qantas has not spent money on product for at least 10years.There are only 4 A380s in service at present and as yet they havent made a lot of impact.they will have an impact when they reach critical mass at around 10 or 12 in service.That is around 18 months away.By that time it may be well and truly too late

[Clipped]

QF cannot continue to blame the GFC.

There is still the LAME dispute that keeps providing a convenient excuse for the trashing of a brand. Though, the professional engineers have stepped up lately and their dispute provides another adequate spin when necessary.

Why can't I get GD's smirk and $11million heist out of my head - might this be affecting my performance?

[Mstr Caution]

I mean no disrespect to any QF employee. There are just no opportunities anymore in Qantas. The fresh talent is roting at the bottom whilst those rank and file at the top defend the system...


It's not always about quick promotion, that's why mainline has around half the employee attrition rate of Jetstar over the last 5 years.

When there's no redundancies going on, loosing around 10% of your workforce each year has gotta be telling you something.

[Muff Hunter]

Mst Ctn

There was no way near 10% of JQ's pilots that left in the past year.

I'd say around 1%, however, over the next few years with all the growth in NZ and Sing there will be many that will seek greener pastures

[Mstr Caution]

Muff,

The comparison of employee attrition (which the QF group uses as one of the indicators of employee engagement) is in relation to the flying operations component of the business. So includes technical, cabin and other flt ops related staff. The figures do not include non voluntary termination.

Last year QF lost 4.2% of it's staff & JQ 9.0%

The information is available in the years end financial report.

[kellykelpie]

I don't think you can take turnover of staff, including cabin crew and say that directly relates to staff engagement. Read the results of the engagement survey. Jetstar's staff are far more engaged - it's a relatively new company, the underdog wanting to compete, quick promotion if you are up for it etc. There is engagement there.

[Mstr Caution]

Jetstar staff may be "more engaged" than those of the parent airline. Not surprising, as the transmission of flying has be going on for the last 5 years.

However that does not explain why J* staff attrition has been double that of mainline for the last 5 years.

From the financial report:

Attrition has replaced turnover as a workforce planning statistic and as an indicator of engagement. This is consistant of the new management team's focus on employee engagement.

[breakfastburrito]

I have no doubt that most QF employess can see the reality, however they are either unwilling or actively resentful of any attempts to rectify the problems which affect their work area. Lonjohn, this quote is incorrect for the QF pilot group. They have been denied the ability to be part of the solution.
The pilot group negotiated the MOU to allow to transfers to J*, however management have done everything in their power to thwart this process - don't blame the attitude of the pilots for the failure to "rectify problems which affect their work area". This is a management failure.

[Jason70]

Well I’m another one that has been very disappointed with Qantas, I use to fly them because of my loyalty, but a few years ago I flew to the UK and the trip was a nightmare with very unhappy cabin crew. I was told by one of the crew when I asked for something that they were here for my safety and not comfort, well personally I think you should be offering both because service is and comfort is what will keep people returning.
Last year we flew to the US from Western Australia, I was that annoyed with Qantas that this time I decided to fly with Singapore Airlines via Singapore the trip was allot longer but I enjoyed every bit of it, the crew were 100% the comfort and condition of the plane was 100%.
I really hope Qantas get back to where they should be but if they remain on there current track I can see more & more people selecting other airlines. Qantas it’s no longer a monopoly pull your finger out.

[Mstr Caution]

That would be the same unwilling or resentful attitude which saved the company $8M & allowed the company to maintain the numbers & experience base in the Second Officer ranks!

[surfside6]

1.Threaten and intimidate employees
2.Establish "silos" so that each unit competes for work and capital.Execs paid bonuses for reducing costs.
3.Delayed expenditure seen as a way to reduce costs in the "short term". Maintenance and ontime departures suffer
4.Jet Star established as a "transfer of business"model to further drive down costs.
5.Cost apportioning makes Jet Star appear successful
6.Exec bonuses rise exponentially.
7.Delayed expenditure sees hard product decline in quality
Result::Qantas is stuffed.Dixon flies off with $11million.
NB.The employees had nothing to do with this.Like the travelling public they are victims of it.
Blaming recalcitrant employees for Qantas' current plight is pure spin.Employees future is tied to the success of the business

[ditch handle]

.......sums it up just about perfectly.

[Metro man]

However that does not explain why J* staff attrition has been double that of mainline for the last 5 years.

The low cost business model allows for employee turnover. Basically it is cheaper to train a flight attendent, have them leave after a few years and train another, than it is provide attractive terms and conditions so they will stay long term.

Managing staff turnover in order to stay on the right side of the "lift/drag" curve is part of the game. Managers need to know how little they can get away with paying before turnover costs becomes prohibitive.

[ditch handle]

The time is overdue for many QF people to realise that the bogey man is not management or JQ, it is competition.

No offence intended longjohn but I nearly pissed myself when I read this quote.

Clearly written by someone who has no idea what QF staff have had to endure over the last few years. None more so than their cabin crew.

Your argument longjohn is completely arse about so I'll correct it for you.

"It's about time management [QF] realised that the bogey man isn't their staff, it is the competition".

[Angle of Attack]

Both Ditch Handle and Longjohn are correct even though they disagree! :)

Yes I reckon the most imminent threat to QF is the competition, whether you like it or not Joe Public is gushing over the middle east carriers, Sing air, etc. which offer better connections more frequent flights, better service (thats the perception anyway), etc. I mean you just have to look how many flights Singair , Emirates have from each Aussie city and it dwarfs QF at the moment. Its all about perception not facts, but thats all that really matters to someone booking a ticket.

On the other hand yes there is areas QF should be doing to cut costs, but apart from a few token management positions announced earlier in the year the vast majority is being done at the coal face. Reduced catering, less quality of products, $hithouse amenity packs, skeleton groundstaff, I mean the list can go on and I won't keep going on.

Basically in the last "Sweet Spot" QF management was an unmitigated disaster, after all that profitability they still emerged with ageing crappy aircraft but great profits, especially in the management department.:confused:

There are areas that can make improved efficiency if only they would listen to the staff, they have lot's of words over engagement but not much action.
Anyway my 2 cents worth! Probably not even worth that seeing as there are no 2 cent coins anymore, gets rounded down to 0 cents! :)

[stubby jumbo]

'.........word just in from a mate who knows someone in HR- is that the Engagement results are out from BCG and surprise surprise they are:

( FROM MANAGEMENTS POINT OF VIEW)- WOEFUL!

( from Staffs point of view)-Spot on !

Prepare for the beatings aka Action Planning workshops designed to make everybody feel really warm & fuzzy about working for such a exceptional icon.

I still remember Dixon at some Road Show a few years back giving us the "we're in the sweet spot" routine!:yuk: Yeah right.... you P-!-K. You had the chance -took the easy way out and screwed the airline into the bitumen.

I hate to say this -but I'm embarrassed to say in public that I work for Qantas-the brand has been so trashed by mismangement-that as soon as the name comes up -I dive for cover !:ouch:

[kellykelpie]

It's a two way street Stubby Jumbo - the company needs to redefine who it is and what it stands for. That will be the easy part. The hard bit will be workplace reform - getting staff to really believe that things have to change in order to compete.

Working for Qantas doesn't mean what it used to mean. Folks are choosing it for lifestyle - motivation is waning, engagement slipping. Thank goodness they chose the right person to take this on.

[drshmoo]

Transition Layer - you still upset you didnt get to wear 4 bars?

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Navy-Chiefs/Chief-Navy19.jpg

:ok:

[Mstr Caution]

The low cost business model allows for employee turnover.


JQ's level of turnover is very low by LCC standards......

But still twice as high as it's parent company!

There-in lies the problem. We have a mindset as pilots that we can't have a long and prosperous career with an airline because management modelling doesn't suit.


I believe the $8 million was generated though self interest, not generosity. Are you suggesting that AIPA would have offerred this saving had redundancies not been looming?


Redundancies weren't on the horizon post Sept 11th & SAR's. Admittedly the airlines all over were hurting. But employee goodwill toward the company afforded them a pilot pay freeze. End result, back to back record profits!!

The hard bit will be workplace reform - getting staff to really believe that things have to change in order to compete.

With due respect KellyKelpie, it's the staff that keep the operation on the rails. That being the motivation of the tech crew concerned & the professionalism they afford the company. Engagement has slipped over the last few years, but it has been inversely propotional to that of the engaement levels of those at J*. As mainline crew saw their promotional opportunities dissapear into the sunset with an orange tail on it.

[Pedota]

Looks like this topic may be back on the table . . .


BA may revive Qantas tie-up plans
The Age November 23, 2009.

British Airways could revive plans for a tie-up with Qantas Airways, using its merger with Spain's Iberia Lineas Aereas de Espana SA as a template, Chief Executive Officer Willie Walsh told the Financial Times.

The Iberia model would allow Qantas to retain a separate brand and home base, Walsh said, according to the report. There are no plans to pursue a tie-up at present, and the ``quite negative'' political reaction in Australia to a proposed deal last year would be a ``major hurdle,'' he added.

British Airways has agreed to combine with Iberia to boost its network amid a slump in international travel that contributed to a record first-half loss. The carrier abandoned merger talks with Qantas last year after the airlines failed to agree on who would control the new company.

``If I were Qantas, I wouldn't consider giving up control of my future to British Airways,'' said Jim Eckes, managing director of Hong Kong-based Indoswiss Aviation. ``The financial condition of Qantas is much better than that of British Airways, which is in a sad shape and getting worse each month.''

A Qantas spokeswoman declined to comment until the company had seen the Financial Times article.

The Sydney-based airline rose 1.5 per cent to $2.73 at 1:40 p.m. in trading in the city. It's gained 3.8 percent this year, compared with British Airways' 13 per cent rise.

BA-Qantas cooperation

At the time of the scuppered deal between the two airlines, British Airways, Europe's third-largest airline, said that talks had stumbled over ``key terms.'' The relative values of the airlines - Qantas has a higher market value while British Airways' revenue is about a third more than Qantas' - also proved a stumbling block.

The carriers have continued to cooperate on flights between Australia and the UK and as members of the Oneworld alliance.

Airlines need more cross-border consolidation to cure a ``sick'' industry struggling to reverse losses, the International Air Transport Association said on Nov. 16.

Qantas Chief Executive Officer Alan Joyce, who's been in the top post at the Australian airline for almost a year, has committed to spending more on technology and reducing fuel usage to make the carrier more competitive.

The airline is targeting capital spending of $1.7 billion in the 2010 financial year and $2.7 billion in the following year, according to a statement today. It intends to buy 43 planes in the two years, it added.

BA and Iberia agreed on a $US7 billion ($7.6 billion) merger earlier this month, ending more than a year of talks. Under the all-share deal, British Airways investors will own about 55 percent of the business, to be led by Walsh. The merger won't be completed until late 2010 and can be called off by Iberia if BA fails to resolve pension-deficit issues.

British Airways said Nov. 6 that its main pension plan had a deficit of about 2.66 billion pounds ($4.4 billion), up from 1.17 billion pounds in March.

[surfside6]

Willie Walsh needs his head examined.A merger with BA and Qantas would exacerbate the shortcomings of both airlines and accelerate their demise.
Walsh gets paid all that money to come up with an idiotic idea like that.
Maybe growing potatoes is his forte?

[GlobalMaster]

No doubt there are good reasons; as the Age article suggests, to:

‘revive BA Qantas tie up plans’ And the old chestnut of who gets ‘control,’ makes all mergers tough.

But, the Indoswiss Aviation statement by Jim Eckes:

If I were Qantas, I wouldn't consider giving up control of my future to British AirwaysSounds like the the view of a ‘Star Lufthansa Groupie’ who doesn’t like the idea of the Union Jack again ruling the waves - sorry skies.

Given the history between Australian & the UK and between BA & Qantas, if any two full service airlines are going to be able to achieve engineering cost reductions via shared facilities and fleet, a QaBa has to have the best chance.

If the King is indeed dying, bring on the evolution, before the LCC revolution kills off the proud history of BA and Qantas and 'plane' travel becomes just like 'train' travel.

[surfside6]

The JSA already provides synergies for both airlines including engineering.
Every time BA gets into bed with Qantas Qantas gets rogered.BA is in dire straights and accordingly should not be trusted

[kellykelpie]

it's the staff that keep the operation on the rails. That being the motivation of the tech crew concerned & the professionalism they afford the company. Engagement has slipped over the last few years, but it has been inversely propotional to that of the engaement levels of those at J*. As mainline crew saw their promotional opportunities dissapear into the sunset with an orange tail on it.

I agree Master Caution. It is the lack of promotion or what I like to call the poverty of expectation that exists within QF. It is not normal outside QF to wait 15 - 20 years for a command. It is not normal for an F18 pilot to spend a decade as a second officer. It is not normal for a pilot to want to avoid promotion. But the QF system encourages that. The agreement penalises initiative in my opinion. It is the opposite of a meritocracy in many respects.

Moving forward, how can we create those opportunities again? We need leaders that understand how the culture is changing and we need workplace reform to be able to compete.

[blow.n.gasket]

so what's the answer Kelly????:confused:
or were you just posting a rhetorical question.

[kellykelpie]

so what's the answer Kelly????


Is there anyone that can explain (with a straight face) why QF pilots are taking flexi-lines whilst MOU spots sit vacant and JQ recruits? If you would like to get your staff to understand how to be engaged and compete, wouldn't you get them to work for an LCC. Cultural change begins when people question their own norms.

[blow.n.gasket]

Or as Captain A J stillwell, President of the Australian Federation of Air Pilots '67-'72 once said in a speech,

"It is possible to run an airline with bad management/pilot relationships. To run a successful airline requires 100% co-operation between management and pilots."

Unfortunately Qantas group management's concept of co-operation is "my way or the highway, and their concept of a highway is a one-way street!"

Kelly you are very quick to tell Qantas pilots to accept lower pay and conditions as a panacea for the company's ills and as the only way to salvation. I assume you are either management or a JetStar management wannabe corridor crawler. So tell me, since JetStar New Zealand offers lower pay and conditions than Jet Star Australia or Jetstar Singapore ,why haven't you gone and accepted a job with them . ??????:eek:

PS in answer to your question reference the MOU.
This is with a straight face,
ASK MANAGEMENT WHY THEY WON"T HONOUR IT!
PPS the answer has been given elsewhere.
Have a look at the changes in the Australian Industrial arena.
I suppose that's the pilot's fault too is it?

[breakfastburrito]

Is there anyone that can explain (with a straight face) why QF pilots are taking flexi-lines whilst MOU spots sit vacant and JQ recruits?

Can you explain (with a straight face) why management PREVENT QF pilots from taking the vacant MOU slots?

You are either ignorant, stupid or troll.

[blow.n.gasket]

Breakfast, can't have that culture polluted remember!:ok:

[kellykelpie]

My question is exactly that - why haven't management facilitated pilots taking promotions with JQ.

[packrat]

Because its a demotion not a promotion.
Also the company has clearly indicated it does not want the JQ culture polluted by QF transferees

[blow.n.gasket]

There is more to it than that.
No doubt due to the no disadvantage section under the new Fair Work Australia Act.

[kellykelpie]

Hi blow.n.gasket and breakfastburrito,

I am sorry to have offended you. It was not intended. My future also lies with QF so we are on the same side. As I tried to point out before, second officers have had the threat of retrenchment and/or taking flexi-lines whilst JQ continues to employ off the street. I am sure there are many SOs that would jump at the chance to spend some time with JQ under the MOU. I do not understand why management and the union don't push this, rather than have pilots excess to requirements. It will create some movement, engagement, opportunity as well as mixing the two cultures so there is less of a gulf. The lack of opportunity is demotivating and disengaging.

[blow.n.gasket]

No offence taken Kelly. But the problem goes beyond pilot's, unions and management.
The problem with this issue as explained to me , is if a qantas pilot takes a position in JetStar under the MOU now,there is clause under the new Fair Work Australia Act that would force the company to honour their pay and conditions from Qantas if certain actions are taken by the pilot.
Management therefore will not allow any transfers.

[RedTBar]

My future also lies with QF so we are on the same side

It will create some movement, engagement, opportunity as well as mixing the two cultures so there is less of a gulf.
So thats what this is all about.
One big happy family where crew from both sides get to fly the others aircraft.

[kellykelpie]

Either that, or look forward to years of stagnation whilst the opportunities are given to others. Which would you prefer?

[Angle of Attack]

Kelly,

The problem with this issue as explained to me , is if a qantas pilot takes a position in JetStar under the MOU now,there is clause under the new Fair Work Australia Act that would force the company to honour their pay and conditions from Qantas if certain actions are taken by the pilot.
Management therefore will not allow any transfers.

There is some legal implications to QF pilots taking this MOU thats why MANAGEMENT are not letting it happen. Some QF pilots would love to go Jetstar just like lots of others are leaving going to overseas airlines, it's about government legislation, not their choice. Try and read FFS.

[Pedota]

Looks like this topic may be back off the table . . . ???




Qantas denies BA talks, remains optimistic about independent future

Airline Transport World
Wednesday November 25, 2009

Qantas dismissed rumors out of London that it is interested in restarting merger talks with British Airways, stating yesterday that "consolidation is not on the carrier's agenda."

The denial from QF CFO Colin Storrie came at an investor conference in Sydney, where the airline recommitted to its 2010 and 2011 capital expenditure program for 42 aircraft worth A$4.4 billion ($4.05 million). Late last year Qantas and BA discussed a merger at length, but the talks were abandoned in December (ATWOnline, Dec. 19, 2008).

Over the next two years the airline group will take delivery of eight 450-seat A380s, three A330s, nine 737-800s and six Q400 regional aircraft, while its Jetstar Airways subsidiary will get 17 more 180-seat A320s. In the longer term, QF has firm commitments for a further 92 aircraft, including 50 787s. The Dreamliner is due to make its first flight on Dec. 22.

Last spring, Qantas cut capacity and staff, grounded aircraft and cancelled orders for 15 787s (ATWOnline, June 29), measures that CEO Alan Joyce said no longer are necessary. It also launched a A$1.5 billion cost-cutting program over the next three years, along with its "Airport of the Future" designed to handle more passengers without major terminal expansion (ATWOnline, Nov. 12).

Next month it will reveal a reconfiguration of its A380s and 747s to eliminate first class on more routes, decrease the number of business class seats and increase capacity in premium economy and economy cabins. QF's A380s and some of its 747s have the lowest seat count--450 and 305 respectively--in the industry because of the heavy focus by previous management on premium travel.

Despite the reductions, Joyce told ATWOnline this month that he is confident "premium travel will return" and is "upbeat on the recovery" witnessed on domestic routes.

by Geoffrey Thomas

[blow.n.gasket]

Any truth to the rumour presently doing the rounds regarding no more than 8 A380's will be coming. The rest of the options have been canx.
Add that to Joyce boasting at the last retirement dinner that the B744 fleet would be down to 9 aircraft within 5yrs makes one wonder as to what's managements plans are. It certainly doesn't appear to be growth of the company?

[Transition Layer]

blow.n.gasket

I'm still trying to get my head around the Qantas Investor Day announcement to the Stock Exchange, available here (http://www.asx.com.au/asx/statistics/announcements.do?by=asxCode&asxCode=QAN&timeframe=D&period=W).

Under the Qantas Fleet renewal section, it has:

A380 - 20 orders, 12 purchase rights, with 4 delivered already.

B787 - 25 orders, 25 purchase rights 0 deliveries :rolleyes:

It also shows one more A330 to come, which is early next year I think.

It also shows another 28 B738s to come, but who knows how many of those Jetconnect will get.

I think what may be confusing people is the Capital Expenditure section, which just shows 8 A380s, however these are only for FY10 and FY11, which is in line with the delivery schedule.

[dizzylizzy]

TG: Regarding the A330's, there are two more ready for delivery in the near future both A330-200 for domestic ops.. EBM & N.

[SkyScanner]

Whilst mainline are getting 2 330s, aren't they about to send another 4 767s to the desert?

The 738s are supposedly replacing the classics so as usual mainline declines, jetstar grows:ugh::*

[Keg]

...and also sending 1 A330 to J*!

So we get increase of one A330 and retire four 767. Net decrease of three airframes. :(

[woody744]

Word on the street has it that 8 jumbos will be parked in the next 12 months starting with the ugly sisters. Given there are only 2 dugongs coming that is another loss of another 7 aircraft. Anyone feeling engaged or do we need Boston Consulting Group back to conduct a survey? :cool:

[nightwing]

November 26, 2009
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QANTAS has provided its biggest signal yet that its Jetstar operations could service the bulk of its international routes in the next decade, after confirming half its order for Boeing 787 Dreamliners would be diverted to the low-cost offshoot.
The airline yesterday clarified a presentation by its head of operations, Lyell Strambi, to analysts and fund managers this week, which outlined that Qantas expected to have 25 of the $US205 million ($A222.9 million) 787s in its fleet.
Some trade journals reported this as meaning Qantas would cut orders for the jets from 50 to 25.
In rejecting the reports, Qantas for the first time confirmed that 25 of the aircraft would be in its livery and the other 25 would be serviced by Jetstar.
The confirmation is five months after Qantas cut its order for 65 787s to 50, and pushed back the delivery of the first of them from next year to mid-2013.
While Qantas is expected to deploy its future fleet of 20 Airbus A380 superjumbos on its high-yielding business passenger-dominated Los Angeles and London routes, the first batch of shorter-haul 787-800s (instead of going into the Jetstar fleet as originally intended) are now due to replace Qantas' domestic fleet of 767s from 2014.
The longer-range 787-900s that will be delivered to Jetstar from 2013 are expected to help the airline's expansion into Europe, North America and several Asian destinations. But Jetstar is believed to be looking to fly to Europe as soon as late next year, when it takes delivery of the first of its five Airbus A330s, which will boost its wide-bodied fleet to 12.

Source: The Age (http://www.theage.com.au/)

[Pegasus747]

Qantas revs up Jetstar expansion
SCOTT ROCHFORT
November 26, 2009

QANTAS has provided its biggest signal yet its Jetstar operations could service the bulk of its international routes within the next decade, after confirming half of its $9 billion order of Boeing 787 Dreamliners would be diverted to the low-cost offshoot.

The airline yesterday was forced to clarify a presentation given by its head of operations Lyell Strambi to analysts and fund managers this week, which outlined that Qantas expected to have 25 of the fuel efficient jets - with a list price of up to $US205 million each - in its fleet.

Some aviation trade journals interpreted it as meaning Qantas would slash its orders for the jets from 50 to 25. But in rejecting the reports, Qantas confirmed for the first time that 25 of the jets would be in Qantas livery, while the other 25 would be operated by Jetstar.

This means Jetstar will become the biggest user of the jet internationally within the group, given Qantas wants to fly most of its 787s domestically.

Jetstar already handles one-third of the group's domestic services and has already replaced Qantas as the main carrier on some international routes, such as Japan.

Yesterday's confirmation comes five months after Qantas cut its order from 65 787s to 50, and pushed back the delivery of its first of the jets from 2010 to mid-2013.

While Qantas is expected to deploy its future fleet of 20 Airbus A380 superjumbos on its high-yielding business passenger-dominated Los Angeles and London routes, the first batch of shorter-haul 787-800s (instead of going into the Jetstar fleet as originally intended) are now due to replace Qantas's domestic fleet of 767s from 2014.

The longer-range 787-900s to be delivered to Jetstar from 2013 are expected to help the airline's expansion into Europe, North America and several new Asian destinations.

However, Jetstar is believed to be looking to fly to Europe as early as next year, when it takes delivery of the first of its longer-range batch of five Airbus A330s, which will boost its wide-body fleet to 12.

Aside from looking to fly into unprofitable routes long abandoned by Qantas, such as Athens and Rome, Jetstar has been considering destinations such as Munich and Milan.

With the Jetstar's seventh A330 expected to be used to bolster its Bali and Honolulu services next month, Jetstar has declined to say where it plans to fly the additional aircraft.

''We're making no decisions beyond aircraft number seven,'' said Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway. The airline has not ruled out the prospect of its part-owned Singapore- and Ho Chi Minh City-based subsidiaries using the jets.

The key attraction Jetstar has towards the lightweight 787 is its fuel efficiency, which is touted as having 25 per cent lower fuel costs than existing jets of a similar size.

Boeing hopes the 787 will finally be ready for its first test-flight by the end of this year.

[mmmbop]

........about to send another 4 767s to the desert?

Don't be so certain of that..........

[WoodenEye]

Ouch!

Jetstar operations could service the bulk of Qantas' international routes within the next decade.


Is devestating news for Mainline F/O's & S/O's.

Without a Group Opportunity List, it looks like many Mainline pilots will be grandparents before they get their command.

Pity really. Had AIPA not pulled the funding for Sale Act Case the night before the September 22nd hearing, things may well be different. Tis a real shame. :{

[QF skywalker]

mmmbop - Keg is correct, net decrease of 3 airframes. OGD and OGA have gone. OGB and OGC following shortly.

http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo158/karl_mathews/DPP_0001.jpg

[blow.n.gasket]

I wonder how many Qantas pilots will be asking serious questions of Team Bazza about their future careers at the rescheduled AIPA AGM on Dec 7th?
Now we know why the Sale Act case was pulled at the last minute!
Couldn't risk the company's plans and jeopardise those management jobs now could we boys!:ok:

[Metro man]

Time for F/Os and S/Os to start applying to airlines in Asia and the Middle East. Captains probably better off hanging around to see what happens as they can get a DEC elsewhere if it doesn't work out.

Things should start picking up next year for job seekers.

[woody744]

Now we know why the Sale Act case was pulled at the last minute! Still batting for team Woods I see, next you will tell us Contract 08 was the best thing since slice bread.

Keg's info is old What, they have gone to the desert to pick the aircraft up and bring them back?

[Dropt McGutz]

A really intelligent comment from Metro man.

[MrWooby]

Keg, Jetstar may not be getting one of our A330's. That was the plan a while ago. I have heard that because they're getting the high gross weight versions they didn't want our one. So that is an increase in 2 a/c for us, hence the additional 6 Command and 4 FO training slots announced recently. Makes sense anyway.

Metroman, why the hell would you want to go to the middle east/asia just to get a command. You need to realise that there is more to life than flying.
Given the choice of second officer in Qantas or Command in Emirates, I would rather live a comfortable and relaxing life in a 1st world country, than living in an artificial shopping metropolis, working my arse of, just to say "I am a captain".

[Mstr Caution]

Aside from looking to fly into unprofitable routes long abandoned by Qantas, such as Athens and Rome, Jetstar has been considering destinations such as Munich and Milan.


I recall reading every press release made by Borghetti as Qantas withdrew services from destinations such as Rome, Paris etc.

Yes, Borghetti stated the routes wheren't profitable. But the reasoning stated at the time was QF mainline didn't operate daily services which the premium traffic called for & mainline didn't have the aircraft to go daily.

Speaking to Borghetti at the time, he re-affirmed without daily services mainline would never be profitable on those routes. Hence the withdrawl.

[KABOY]

Some people want to achieve a goal Mr.Wooby, that's why they will move on.

Complacency in your environment can creep up and bite you. Just ask some other Australian aviators from around the year 2001.

If the guy want's to dust off his resume, don't persecute him for that. He might be a reference in the future.

[Keg]

Wooby, fair enough. I took my info from the QF web site and it was last updated in July.

[Metro man]

Metroman, why the hell would you want to go to the middle east/asia just to get a command. You need to realise that there is more to life than flying.

Try buying a house in Sydney and raising two children on a S/Os income. They lifestyle you allude to requires money to achieve, unless living out in the western suburbs and driving a fifteen year old car is your thing.

I want to retire looking back on time in the left hand seat and have enough money to enjoy myself.

[MrWooby]

Reminds me off a discussion a while ago with a retired captain. He moved away from Sydney because he didn't want to buy in Sydney, said it was to expensive. All his compatriots brought in Sydney. Many years later all those who brought in Sydney were much better off financially than he was. Sure he had brought a cheaper house but never got the gains that those in Sydney got.

Anyway should be able to afford a Sydney house on an SO's wage of 170K+:ok:

[Dropt McGutz]

Metro man, that's why many of them commute because it allows them the lifestyle.

[Shazz-zaam]

Metro Man,
I, same as you, would all like to retire comfortably, under the circumstances , the last people to achieve that from Qantas would be Dixon and Joyce.Dixon with his $11 million payout, Joyce will be looking at a siniliar figure.
Joyce is going to destroy mainline to feather his own nest.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$

[DEFCON4]

Some one at a very senior level is taking a huge gamble with the Qantas name.Never in its history has Qantas been so hammered by the media and so emotionally detached from the travelling public.Decisions taken over the last ten years are now having a devastating effect on the corporation.You cannot have a premium brand if you dont spend money on the hard product.The employee culture has also been destroyed.There is very little cohesion and a great deal of despair.
So why do this?
Initially the plan was to flog Qantas off.....that failed.What we see now is an overhang from that failure.Snippets of information about Joyce being out and about would indicate a change.It has taken ten years to get to this mess.It will take a few years to repair it.Joyce has a lot of balls in the air and he needs to be careful not to drop any.Returning mainline to profit,bolster the share ,re assure shareholders and fix employee morale are but a few of his tasks.Admissions of failure are starting to creep into his announcements.
Retiring of ancient airframes improves bottom line yield by reducing capacity.Is it the beginning of a rebuilding phase?.Qantas needs to lure high yield premium customers back to its premium cabins.It either replaces older airframes with the A380 or refurbish existing aircraft.It needs more medium sized aircraft in its fleet mix now.More A330s are on the way.
Its become a cliche but do we see some greenshoots of rebuilding?.Unfortunatley for Joyce,passengers,shareholders and employees the media is creating confusion by editorialising his pronouncements.
The other theory is that the long long term plan is to marginalise mainline and shift routes/growth to JetStar.When costs have reached the desired level all tails are painted red and white.The problem with this strategy is that there is a high risk of it backfiring and Qantas ends up in the historical "huge corporate screw ups" bin alongside Ansett

[RedTBar]

Try buying a house in Sydney and raising two children on a S/Os income
How do you think the rest of society manages?

[Metro man]

We're not the rest of society. Airline Pilots are professionals, same as doctors, solicitors, pharmacists, accountants etc. As such we should expect more than a 3 bed room house in the western suburbs and a five year old Commodore.

Try telling a junior solicitor he should be happy to stay on starting pay rates, and give up any thoughts of making partner. After five years in university I don't think he'd be too happy.

Other people may be content to manage and get by. Professional pilots deserve rewards in line with their qualifications and responsibilities.

[blow.n.gasket]

Woody744 wrote:next you will tell us Contract 08 was the best thing since slice bread.

I'll hold judgement until I've seen what Team Bazza comes up with, then we'll see. Considering the amount of political energy they spent destroying EBA8 they have a big task ahead of themselves and one hell of a lot of explaining to do if it 'aint better!
Or as I've been hearing around the traps instead of Team Bazza ,Australia has Prime minister Kevin747 and AIPA has President Bazza380! I personally think it's more Bazza180 considering the amount of about-turns he's made since coming to office! :eek:

[newsensation]

Maybe Woods and his band of merry men should all leave AIPA and start their own union and their own super fund!:ok:

[blow.n.gasket]

I'd like tea and scones with my supper please ,I should be able to fund that before you lot roll over.
Why a new union ,news?, are you lot hell bent on destroying what remains all in the name of engagement are you?:}

PS I see you've learned to spell super!, :eek:

[MrWooby]

I agree Metroman, but unlike other professions, pilots are always willing to undercut each other to get that jet job. Hell, we even have pilots who will work for nothing just to get hours up. You don't see doctors, lawyers etc, undercutting each other.

[Captain.Que]

Management
HR Department
Squabbling amongst employees

[RedTBar]

As such we should expect more than a 3 bed room house in the western suburbs and a five year old Commodore.
Why not try to do what others do, start small,save your money and end up where you want to be.Don't expect everything to be handed to you on a plate.
unlike other professions, pilots are always willing to undercut each other to get that jet job. Hell, we even have pilots who will work for nothing just to get hours up. You don't see doctors, lawyers etc, undercutting each other.
spot on.Real professionals do not undercut each other.There is a difference between someone who has a profession and someone who is professional.

[Dagger]

We're not the rest of society. Other people may be content to manage and get by. Professional pilots deserve rewards in line with their qualifications and responsibilities.

Get your hand off it. Aint no such thing as deserves.

[Metro man]

Thousands of people rely on us every day to to transport them safely from A to B. The job requires the maintenance of high standards and the investment of considerable time and money in gaining the required licences.

After qualifying as a doctor, solicitor or other professional, people naturally expect a return for their efforts, why should we be different ?

If we are going to be no better off than forklift drivers then why bother ?

Pay $300 for a five day course, earn $60 000 within a few months working business hours with no pressure or responsibilities. Where do I sign up ?

[packrat]

C'mon guys...try to stay on topic...or this will be closed

[GlobalMaster]

:eek: With results like this:

“Total Domestic (Qantas Domestic, QantasLink and Jetstar Domestic operations) yield excluding foreign exchange for the financial year to October 2009 was 10.2 percent lower when compared to the same period the prior year. Total International (Qantas International, Jetstar International and Jetstar Asia operations) yield excluding foreign exchange for the financial year to October 2009 decreased by 24.2 percent when compared to the same period the prior year,”

Qantas Group Passenger numbers for the financial year to October 2009.


Qantas Domestic: 1.5 million, -0.9%;
QantasLink: 378,000, -1.9%;
Jetstar Domestic: 749,000, +3.6%;
Qantas International: 521,000, -20.9%;
Jetstar International: 339,000, +115.8%;
Source: Company Statement, 01Dec2009.


The answer to 'where to', won't be paradice?

[Gobetter]

.... really?

Paradice?

:ugh: