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Keith Myath
18th Nov 2009, 03:02
A line from another post prompted me to start this thread.


They are currently not allowed to fly domestic sectors under Australian workplace laws.

Roller Merlin


There are overseas based flight attendants (Singaporean and Thai) that operate on Australian domestic sectors without any work visas. This is how it works. Aircraft A operates SIN-DRW as an international sector with overseas based flight attendants. On arrival in DRW, the tech crew go home, all passengers, cabin crew and baggage get off the A/C, clear customs and immigration, recheck bags, go back through security and assemble in the DOMESTIC boarding lounge. The passengers are joined by additional DOMESTIC passengers, board an aircraft (A, B or C) and the overseas flight attendants operate to MEL, BNE or CNS. Arriving at the DOMESTIC terminal. There isnít a single thing international about this flight. They call it an international TAG sector, but the tech crew have changed, there are no customs or immigration duties to be carried out, the aircraft may have changed, they have sold additional domestic tickets, and the operate to and from the domestic terminals.

Immigration know this is happening. The crew clear immigration in DRW, OPERATE to MEL or CNS, then the next day or so, clear immigration in MEL or CNS leaving the country for BKK or NRT. All immigration need to do is ask them if they are intending to work whilst they are staying in the country. Passengers of foreign nationality get asked this question, why not fight attendants?

With Jetstar's interpretation of an international tag sector, these crew operate on any domestic sector that has an international flight number. Just wait for DRW to ADL and SYD to get overseas based flight attendants.

DrPepz
18th Nov 2009, 03:04
What about all those Australian pilots working in Singapore for TR, 3K, SQ and MI.... Shall we throw them out of Singapore as well? There are a million Australians working outside Australia, and nobody's suggesting that they should be thrown back into Australia. Globalisation works both ways, I believe.

tail wheel
18th Nov 2009, 04:52
I think you will find that it depends upon which AOC was used to conduct the "domestic" flight sector. International airlines have operating rights within Australia, including the carriage of foreign crews.

dodgybrothers
18th Nov 2009, 04:57
taily, its JQ aus with foreign nationals as CC. At least the sing and thais can speak english. The emergency exit brief the other day may as well have been in Klingon because I could not understand a word she said.

Many comments from other pax about the english levels of the cc, very ordinary indeed.

Wod
18th Nov 2009, 05:31
Different, but possibly similar enough, how do QF crew LAX-JFK/LAX?

twiggs
18th Nov 2009, 05:40
LAX-JFK-LAX is different because it cannot be sold purely as a domestic sector.
You must have an inbound/outbound component from/to Australia to buy that sector as a pax.

Pass-A-Frozzo
18th Nov 2009, 05:43
Foreign Nationals operating domestic Aus sectors

I've no problem with that... idealogically what's your problem with it?

tail wheel
18th Nov 2009, 05:59
"...... it depends upon which AOC was used to conduct the "domestic" flight sector" and/or whether an approved Code Share existed.

I seriously doubt any infringement of DIAC regulations occurred.

Welcome back P-A-F. :E

Captain Dart
18th Nov 2009, 05:59
Twenty years ago there were foreign nationals operating domestic sectors (from the pointy end of the aircraft) during a certain industrial event relating to domestic pilots. The silence from the QANTAS flight crew, and the cabin crew and engineers' unions was deafening! Why is it a concern now?

Pass-A-Frozzo
18th Nov 2009, 06:10
I seriously doubt any infringement of DIAC regulations occurred.

Welcome back P-A-F.

Thanks TailWheel. By the way the new "confirm your login by typing in an image" hasn't broken my "Delete all previous posts" application that stirred up PPrune HQ! (The "2400 deleted posts??? BANNED" result) :E I'm sure for a consultancy fee I could show PPRuNe how to stop an application like that :}

Checklist Charlie
18th Nov 2009, 06:12
20 years ago the Government of the day changed the visa rules to facilitate the 'foreign' crews.

It would seem that what is happening today is that the cabin crews are working in Australia contrary to their entry visa limitations.

It used to be called 'creative accounting'

Pass-A-Frozzo
18th Nov 2009, 06:23
I'm not sure I see the issue with this. You can buy a TV made in China, a book printed in the UK and/or some Old El Paso taco shells made in Mexico all shipped using a ship registered in Panama crewed by Chinese.

Why should a service industry such as air transport be any different? Why should passengers who happen to live in the vicinity of an International airport be the only ones who benefit from the competition provided by international carriers?

Air routes should be fully deregulated globally. Then maybe Australian's can book a flight with QF (say Jan 31 - Feb 19) to Perth (that's not departing at a ridiculous hour) that doesn't cost 70% of a flight Sydney - New York return with a similar airline (Delta).

Metro man
18th Nov 2009, 06:51
Foreign airlines were able to operate domestic sectors within Australia with their own passengers, these flights were not "generally available" to the public.

Eg back in the 1990s BA flew Sydney - Brisbane with passengers who were entering or leaving Australia with them. You could arrive in Sydney from London, stop over for a few days and then go on to Brisbane. Passengers got a special boarding pass and still had to go through customs.

With the relatively small market and large distances involved it may not have been worth having two services to different cities but by combining them into one it paid. Africa - Perth - Sydney would be a good example of this.

What Jetstar appear to be doing is something different. An Australian Airline with an Australian registered aircraft flying a domestic sector with seats generally available to the public. Assuming the crew enter Australia on the general declaration, entry would be permitted for the stated purpose only ie to transit and return home, not to engage in employment.

In order to work in Australia you need to either be a citizen or posess the required visa and this doesn't seem to be the case here.

An immigration compliance officer meeting a VH registered Jetstar aircraft in MEL, which has just arrived from DRW would probably detain foreign nationals found to be working on board as they would be in breach of the entry conditions given on arrival in Australia. The domestic sectors in this case should be flown by people with the right to work in Australia, do the foreign flight attendants have the right to work here ?

Could, for example Virgin Blue employ a few Thai Airways cabin crew to do domestic sectors for them during their stop overs ?

If the Jetstar service is flown with a Singapore aircraft and carries only passengers originating or terminating in Singapore then there should be no problem with the domestic service having a foreign crew.

Pass-A-Frozzo
18th Nov 2009, 06:52
It is illegal, different story if they had work permits.

My point is why should it be illegal?

tail wheel
18th Nov 2009, 07:08
It would seem that what is happening today is that the cabin crews are working in Australia contrary to their entry visa limitations.

That is a very serious allegation - how can you substantiate that allegation? :confused: :confused:

It is a criminal offence under the Migration Act 1958 for a person to knowingly or recklessly allow an illegal worker to work or refer an illegal worker for work with another business.

From 19 August 2007 it became a criminal offence under the Migration Act 1958 for a person to knowingly or recklessly:
allow an illegal worker to work
refer an illegal worker for work with another business.

Individuals who are convicted of these offences face fines of up to $13 200 and two years imprisonment while companies face fines of up to $66 000 per illegal worker.

If, from comments here, Flight JQ62 is a Jetstar Asia/Jetstar Australia code share flight SIN-DRW-MEL and regardless of a change of aircraft from foreign to Australian registration (if that occurred), I suspect the presence of foreign CC would not contravene any DIAC regulations. Indeed, you may well find Jetstar Asia have Australian domestic flight sector rights with foreign registered aircraft, as has Air New Zealand and possibly other foreign carriers.

Care to substantiate your allegations?

I think this thread is a bit of a wind up! :ugh:

twiggs
18th Nov 2009, 07:11
I'm pretty sure the QF mainline BKK based crew did some domestic sectors.
This is the first time I've heard anyone mention there might be something illegal about it.

7378FE
18th Nov 2009, 07:15
You must have an inbound/outbound component from/to Australia to buy that sector as a pax.

Nope, must have an inbound/outbound component to/from the USA.

Nothing stopping a One World alliance pax booking :
Tokyo-Los Angelas on JAL
connecting to
Los Angelas-New York on Qantas
then connecting to
New York-London on British Airways

dodgybrothers
18th Nov 2009, 08:04
tailwheel, Its a JQ, ie Australian operation with a QF codeshare, nothing to do with Jetstar Asia. The crew operate it from Singapore to Melb and likewise from Sing to Cairns and also dps to Brisbane.

All domestic flights once they hit Darwin, but use non-nationals to crew it.

Metro man
18th Nov 2009, 08:13
A best it's a very grey area. You have foreigners working for an Australian company within Australia, possibly without the correct visa.

There are many kinds of visas available for different purposes of entry. A multi national might send down a specialist to oversee the establishment of a new subsidiary, an overseas trainer may be hired to teach staff how to use new equipment. These people would need to apply for appropriate permits and most likely they would be granted.

Try telling immigration you want to bring in fifty unskilled workers because they will work for a third of what an Australian would cost and see what kind of response you would get. :hmm:

I've had my name on hundreds of General Declarations and I don't remember one which gave me the right to work for a local company in the country I was transiting.

Could an American working for COCA COLA in the USA come to Australia and start loading trucks with pallets of COKE ?

What about income tax ? Can I work in Australia for a local company and be paid abroad and taxed at much lower rates ?

Workers comp ? What if a Singapore F/A falls off a VH reg aircraft while working in MEL ?

Having foreigners working on Australian registered aircraft on domestic sectors raises alot of questions. Prehaps someone from Immigration could provide answers ?

PS See similar thread http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/395466-jetstar-singapore-widebody.html

ferris
18th Nov 2009, 08:22
I think this thread is a bit of a wind up! Err, why? Are you really missing the point? All the allegations made do not require substantiation- the poster has speculated that what is occurring is illegal, and clearly stated why.
Mixing different authorities isn't going to help in this case- one must comply with ALL relevant laws. Just because IATA/CASA (or whoever) grants rights to operate aircraft, doesnt get you off the hook regarding WHO operates the aircraft (immigration, Workcover, etc. etc.). In your Air NZ example, I suspect that the aircraft are operated by people who have the right to work in oz (kiwis). Of course, Immigration officials may check ;-)

Surely qantas wouldn't do anything illegal in order to make more money? Right? Right?

training wheels
18th Nov 2009, 08:39
I travelled on JQ62 from SIN to DRW as SLF in April this year. All crew were definitely very Australian. The A320 was too .. VH registered.

So, is Jetstar now using Singapore cabin crews on JQ62? Is that what's alleged here?

dizzylizzy
18th Nov 2009, 08:42
Thought about the Jetconnect LH/SH crew operating domestic sectors in Oz? PER rtn's exMEL?

Pass-A-Frozzo
18th Nov 2009, 09:03
Could an American working for COCA COLA in the USA come to Australia and start loading trucks with pallets of COKE ?

So what do you see as the dividing line here?

IBM can make a sale, send software / hardware engineers to Australia who install the software / hardware and have them leave.

Why shouldn't an airline be able to make a sale, send an aircraft and crew to Australia who transport people and have them leave?

What's the underlying philosophy here?

The ADF use a charter flight with foreign crew that lands as first port of call in Darwin then several domestic legs. Is anyone suggesting that is wrong?

tail wheel
18th Nov 2009, 09:25
On April 14, 2010, one can book domestic passage from Sydney to Brisbane (http://www.cruisecompete.com/itins/sun_princess_cruises_cjdd.html) on the MV Sun Princess.

I haven't checked the vessel's registry, but I suspect it is probably registered in Panama, US owned, British Master, German Engineers, Filipino, Chinese and Sri Lankan crew. I doubt any, from the Master down, have valid Australian Visas which entitles them to work in Australia.

In terms of the Migration Regulations 1994 (http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Management.nsf/current/bytitle/D03C53C4F77B1836CA256F710006B674?OpenDocument&VIEW=compilations), could someone explain the difference to JQ operating SIN - DRW - MEL with foreign cabin crew?

Metro man
18th Nov 2009, 09:32
I haven't checked the vessel's registry, but I suspect it is probably registered in Panama, US owned, British Master, German Engineers, Filipino, Chinese and Sri Lankan crew. I doubt any, from the Master down, have valid Australian Visas which entitles them to work in Australia.

Could that crew get off in Brisbane, change to an AUSTRALIAN REGISTERED ship and sail it to Sydney ? I doubt it.

Pass-A-Frozzo
18th Nov 2009, 11:47
I'm still wondering though. What's the issue in this circumstance? I would have thought foreign crew on a foreign aircraft would not be an issue?

Metro man
18th Nov 2009, 11:50
I tried this link Australian Visa wizard - Visas & Immigration (http://www.immi.gov.au/visawizard) , entering information which would apply to Foreign cabin crew wanting to work in Australia and couldn't find any visa which would cover them.

Prehaps a working holiday visa would cover the younger ones. If so do they have one ?

Anyone else want to try ?

Pass-A-Frozzo
18th Nov 2009, 11:53
That link would apply to aircrew who wish to move to Australia and then seek a job, rather than aircrew transiting Australia on an aircraft.
There is a big difference between a pilot trying to move to Australia in search of a job and a pilot on an aircraft flying through Australia.

<< is it just me or is one of the mods trying to ban my ip.. I'm having to use other means... :( >> A simple go away email from a mod would suffice.. ok working again?!?

ditzyboy
18th Nov 2009, 13:37
Jetstar is currently recruiting heavily in Singapore for the JQ Australia operation, there are other sectors (DRW-SYD, JQ74) with international flight numbers that presently do not have foreign nationals operating on them

I have had BKK crew ops JQ73 SYD-DRW (conx SGN) recently. Crew was a mix of DRW, SYD and BKK, actually.

tail wheel
18th Nov 2009, 19:29
Prehaps a working holiday visa would cover the younger ones. If so do they have one ?

No. There is a special Visa for crews of ships and aircraft regularly operating in/within Australia. Transit crews with Seaman's Book or appropriate license do not require a Visa. All in accordance with International conventions. You'll need to search the Immigration web site to find it.

<< is it just me or is one of the mods trying to ban my ip.. I'm having to use other means... >>

No .... at least not yet! :} PPRuNe was again experiencing very frustrating problems most of last night our time. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :mad:

tail wheel
18th Nov 2009, 19:45
My error - the rules have changed! :\

Gone from a simple Seamans Book to what apprears to be an excessively complex Visa structure. Where would we be without Politicians and Public Servants? :sad:

mates rates
18th Nov 2009, 20:55
The precedent was set in 1989 by another labour government so don't expect anything to change now.

Muff Hunter
18th Nov 2009, 22:01
JQ management are about to recieve some grief over this.

The FAA took this to the Deputy Prime Minister recently and from reports she was less than impressed with what JQ are doing.

If this is left unchecked they can create all sorts of tag flights around the country and use even more o/s based cc, especially now when they are possibly about to have some industrial problems with their eba cc who's agreement expired sometime ago and are disgusted by the new JQ offer.

JQ are management have realised that the years of abuse of their workforce is now coming back to bite them so they are coming up with ways to counter this with cheap (sweat shop style) o/s labour!

Keith Myath
18th Nov 2009, 22:20
tail wheel

On April 14, 2010, one can book domestic passage from Sydney to Brisbane (http://www.cruisecompete.com/itins/sun_princess_cruises_cjdd.html) on the MV Sun Princess.

I haven't checked the vessel's registry, but I suspect it is probably registered in Panama, US owned, British Master, German Engineers, Filipino, Chinese and Sri Lankan crew. I doubt any, from the Master down, have valid Australian Visas which entitles them to work in Australia.

In terms of the Migration Regulations 1994 (http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Management.nsf/current/bytitle/D03C53C4F77B1836CA256F710006B674?OpenDocument&VIEW=compilations), could someone explain the difference to JQ operating SIN - DRW - MEL with foreign cabin crew?

The Australian coast is protected by Cabotage. For the MV Sun Princess (or any other foreign registered ship) to operate on the Australian Coast will have either a single voyage permit or continuous voyage permit. It is worth noting that there are some conditions attached to these permits:


The Navigation Act requires all shipping engaged in the coasting trade to be either licensed or to be granted specific exemptions from the licensing requirements in the form of single or continuous voyage permits (SVPs or CVPs). Any ship, whether Australian or foreign, can obtain a license to operate on the coast provided certain economic conditions are met, as set out in Part VI of the Act, which are principally:

that seafarers employed on the ship shall be paid wages at the current rates ruling in Australia, and
that the ship is not in receipt, either directly or indirectly, of any subsidy or bonus from a foreign government.
I bet that the foreign nationals operating within Australia would love that protection. Any guesses what the wages are for the Jetstar Singapore or Thai flight attendants?

PAF

I'm still wondering though. What's the issue in this circumstance? I would have thought foreign crew on a foreign aircraft would not be an issue?


Foreign Registered aircraft are not permitted to operate domestic sectors.

A Foreign Aircraft AOC may authorise the operation of a foreign registered aircraft on flights into, out of or within Australian territory that are not regulated domestic flights. (Civil Aviation Act, 1988, 27AE (4.a))

The issue is foreign crew operating domestic sectors, it matters not which rego the aircraft has (VH in this case).

mates rates
The precedent was set in 1989 by another labour government so don't expect anything to change now

There is currently no approval, special visa or any legislation that permits foreign national cabin crew to operate domestically. Talk about seafarers or 89 distracts from this point.

Again, find me the exemption that Jetstar have that allows them to use foreign nationals on domestic sectors.

blow.n.gasket
18th Nov 2009, 22:59
I wonder what all that malarkey about 5th freedom rights might have to do with this topic?:confused:

ferris
18th Nov 2009, 23:21
Once again- it doesn't matter about what one arm of government says; you have to comply with all laws.

As for the whole shipping argument: Since when, Tail Wheel, has pointing out that somebody else is breaking a law, ever been a defence against it? I'd like to see you argue with the next copper who pulls you over for speeding in your car that it's ok because you saw some boats speeding.

Metro man
2nd Dec 2009, 06:55
Just because the base is in Singapore it may not mean the flight attendents are Singaporean. Could someone confirm the nationality of the crews ?

Flight attendents working in Singapore are multi national and include Malaysians, Thais, Indonesians, Philippinos, Vietnamese and mainland Chinese.

Even a Singaporean f/a not working for SQ would only be on around SG$2000 a month, plus possible commission on sales.

Also do the F/As hold ASIC cards as they are accessing restricted areas at Australian airports ?

By George
2nd Dec 2009, 07:50
I doubt they would hold an ASIC. I am one of many Australian Citizens now working off-shore and they won't give me one. They say it's because I am a 'non-resident'. During my last Aussie I/F renewal I had to be escorted out to the aircraft and escorted back to the hangar. During crew visits with my company I conduct airside 'walk-arounds' on my company ID as if I own the place. (smiling at all the Middle-Eastern bag chuckers with their ASICs' as I walk past).

twiggs
2nd Dec 2009, 09:49
Even a Singaporean f/a not working for SQ would only be on around SG$2000 a month, plus possible commission on sales.

I heard Jetstar f/a's in SG get less than $1000 a month.

Worrals in the wilds
2nd Dec 2009, 10:03
Also do the F/As hold ASIC cards as they are accessing restricted areas at Australian airports ?


Foreign crews (including F/As) are not required to display ASICs in secure areas, an airline ID and uniform are sufficient. The lawful reason for entry requirement also applies.

From the Aviation Transport Security Regulations:
3.05 Crew of foreign and state aircraft etc
Despite regulation 3.03, the following people need not display
an ASIC in a secure area:
(a) a person who is a member of the crew of a foreign aircraft
(other than a state aircraft) that is engaged in a regular
public transport operation or a charter operation and who:
(i) is in the uniform of the aircraft operator; and
(ii) displays appropriate identification issued or
authorised by the aircraft operator:

chimbu warrior
2nd Dec 2009, 10:20
Ah, ASIC cards........what a monster this is.

I hold an ASIC card, but work for an offshore operator that issues me with their own version of ID/security card. Their requirement is that I wear their ID card only, wherever I go.

I got cornered by a security gorilla at an Australian airport recently and was told in no uncertain terms (albeit in broken English by someone whom I suspect is a recent arrival) that under no circumstances was I permitted on the tarmac, and I would be in breach of Australian law if i did a pre-flight walkaround inspection.

My explanation that the company I fly for has a DOTRS-approved security program fell on deaf ears, as did my comment that I have been flying in and out of this particular airport for almost 30 years.

Like By George, I am a fugitive in my home country.

Metro man
2nd Dec 2009, 10:56
Foreign crews (including F/As) are not required to display ASICs in secure areas, an airline ID and uniform are sufficient. The lawful reason for entry requirement also applies.

From the Aviation Transport Security Regulations:
3.05 Crew of foreign and state aircraft etc
Despite regulation 3.03, the following people need not display
an ASIC in a secure area:
(a) a person who is a member of the crew of a foreign aircraft
(other than a state aircraft) that is engaged in a regular
public transport operation or a charter operation and who:
(i) is in the uniform of the aircraft operator; and
(ii) displays appropriate identification issued or
authorised by the aircraft operator:

But these F/As are on AUSTRALIAN registered aircraft not foreign registered so 3.05(a) would not apply to them.

If they don't require ASICs because they are foreign crews then they have no business working in Australia on domestic sectors operated by an Australian airline. Let them obtain work permits first. Jetstar can justify to immigration why they cannot find locals to act as cabin crew within Australia.

Suppose Air Niugini DHC8 crews came to Cairns and started operating for SKYTRANS flying "tag" sectors to Townsville.

Jabawocky
2nd Dec 2009, 11:00
I hold an ASIC card, but work for an offshore operator that issues me with their own version of ID/security card. Their requirement is that I wear their ID card only, wherever I go.

Where ever you go? In breach again big fella.....I do not recall seeing you preflight on Sunday with your security pass showing! :eek:

J:E

Cypher
2nd Dec 2009, 20:22
The issue is foreign crew operating domestic sectors, it matters not which rego the aircraft has (VH in this case)

Is the issue really;

The issue is foreign crew operating domestic sectors, it matters not which rego the aircraft has (VH in this case), with these flights freely available for purchase by the Australian public.

I take it there wouldn't be an issue if JQ62 was only available for purchase as a domestic sector outside of Australia by international pax.

Worrals in the wilds
3rd Dec 2009, 03:40
Metro man, my apologies. There doesn't seem to be a section in the Regs that covers this scenario :confused:. This could mean that the creator of the Regulations hadn't struck this before.

Immigration Dob-In Line (http://www.immi.gov.au/managing-australias-borders/compliance/staying-legally/dob-in-line.htm)

The above link is for Immigration's compliance people. If the issue's bugging you, they're probably worth a call, either for the correct answer (if it's legit) or to investigate (if it isn't). It probably depends on what Australian visas these crew hold, if any. If they do hold 457s sponsored by Jetstar, there is no reason why they can't work. The question would be how Jetstar was able to sponsor them when there are plenty of suitable applicants in Australia.

dodgybrothers
3rd Dec 2009, 04:28
I had a think about two scenarios. Do UA pick up pax ex SYD to MEL when they are doing their shuttle between the two cities? Im quite sure they aren't allowed as that would constitute cabotage but their crews are allowed to operate because it is a continuation of an existing international service. Could qantas do the same thing? Yes because they are allowed to pick up domestic pax and the they do.

Could the QF flighties get off the the 747s in LA and operate a UA domestic service because they might be cheaper than the UA crews? Absolutely not.

Jetstar are entitled to operate their international flights as domestic tags there is also no question about that. If the cabin crew are not Australians nor do they have the legal right to work here in oz, then it is certainly a matter for immigration to deal with. They do have asics, I have seen them, but if they come through customs and immigration on a gen dec then I cannot see how Jetstar can then on-sell that flight as domestic tag as it is no longer an international service once it has cleared customs and the crew are therefore operating as illegal workers, if the company is selling additional seats ex the international port of entry to wherever domestically.

No wonder the govt is taking a very dim view and customs has asked jetstar for a please explain, I just wonder where the FAAA stance is on this.

DrPepz
3rd Dec 2009, 10:21
I was clearing my emails and came across an email some sent me regarding the SQ cabin crew meal allowances for 2005:

(In S$, in order of Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner)
Australia /
New Zealand
43
76
97

Orient
36
79
96

Europe
63
102
128

Middle East
34
60
76

USA / Canada
32
65
85

South East Asia
20
36
45

South Asia
25
45
58

South Africa
30
56
73

Japan
61
96
125

Just remember that this was from 2005. It probably has gone up, since we're nearly 5 years down the road.

From what I remember from a newspaper article, in addition to their basic salary, SQ cabin crew get in addition to the above:

1) An overnight allowance
2) $8 an hour for the first 8 hours of flying and $12 after that, for each sector. Flying duty for the sector commences from when the cabin crew arrives at Changi Airport and ends when they leave the overseas airport upon arrival. For turnaround flights, it starts when they enter Changi Airport and ends when they leave Changi Airport

3)Their basic salary (which is around S$1500 a month for entry level staff, I think inflight supervisors are on $6k ro $7k fixed ++ usually multiplied by anywhere from 13 to 18 months of salary a year depending on thecompany performance. For the last FY it was multiplied by 17 months while for this FY it will probably me multipled by 14 months if even, since SQ is unlikely to break even.)

As such, SQ cabin crew are basically casual staff with a very low fixed salary and a very high variable salary. Looking at their allowances, they are by no means underpaid even compared to their Western counterparts.

A SIN-FRA-JFK return leg could net them nearly S$2000 in allowances and duty pay.

If Tiger and Jetstar Asia are paying that much lower than SQ (I don't know how much they pay), then obviously they would be getting staff of a completely different league. You pay peanuts, you get donkeys.

I know Tiger has gotten interns from Singaporean polytechnics to "intern" as cabin crew, and paid them an intern "allowance" (probably a few hundred dollars a month). It wouldn't surprise me if they try to get away with paying as little as possible.

Metro man
3rd Dec 2009, 11:37
Jetstar/Tiger cabin crew would be on around SG$2000/month depending on the type of contract and volume of sales commission. Lowest would be interns and some foreigners who might make around SG$1500 (possibly less). Senior local with good selling ability should be on over $2000.

No way comparable to SQ in terms of pay and conditions. SQ flight attendant is a fairly prestigious job and the standards are very high, as you would expect with a 5* airline.

Low pay doesn't necessarily reflect on the quality of staff, simply put low skilled jobs here pay very poorly and high skilled ones very well. A checkout operator may work sixty hours a week for SG$1500/ month and be quite happy because it's ten times what they could make in their own country.

The work ethic is different to Australia as well, people expect to work hard for a living without the culture of entitlement, ie no dole. There is no weighing up whether you would be better off taking a job or staying home on welfare, government attitude is there is work available for those that want it, those that don't aren't going to be subsidised.

Believe me, the quality of people working but low paid is considerably better than Australias career welfare spongers who wouldn't dream of taking a job.

twiggs
3rd Dec 2009, 12:38
Metro man, going by the posts on another forum, you are a little high on your estimates.
SG$700-850 is being quoted as basic monthly for Jetstar, so you would have to do a lot of selling to get to $2000 from that.
Singapore expats forum
(http://forum.singaporeexpats.com/sutra419225.html&sid=a62f075586b558a54cf09639b47ae5db)
DrPepz, SQ crew would be lucky to take home SG$5000 per month including allowances and most are probably on SG$3500-4000.
(and are working their rings off)

Metro man
3rd Dec 2009, 12:58
Each cabin crew member may get around 4% of total sales as commission. A good flight might sell $2000 = $80 commission. Most flights would be below this however with some short sectors being negligable, but working +/- 20 days per month it certainly builds up. Pay is variable depending on the contract and sales ability, but it gives a rough idea of earnings.

DrPepz
3rd Dec 2009, 15:58
Metroman:

Please stop flattering Singaporeans on not having a sense of entitlement etc.... (I'm a Singaporean myself)

Basically, the government has opened the floodgates for all sorts of low skilled foreigners to take lower skilled jobs in hospitality and retail, the wages for such jobs have been severely depressed over the past decade. Well over half of retail and service type jobs in Singapore are now taken by foreigners like Chinese nationals and Malaysians.

Singaporeans generally have as great a sense of self-entitlement as Australians. Singaporeans won't do work which requires them getting their hands dirty, long hours, working weekends, shifts etc etc etc.

There is even a facebook page called "I am Singaporean and sick of service staff who can only speak Mandarin"

As a result, native born and bred Singaporeans will eventually become like the EMIRATIS in terms of work ethic, except that we have no oil!

The end result is skilled jobs here (graduate jobs and above) generally pay similarly to what you'd get in Australia (esp post tax), and unskilled jobs have salaries that are generally being depressed towards developing country levels, since people from China would gladly work for 12 hours a day for $1200 a month as a check out chick, seeing as in China they'd get the equivalent of $200 a month for the same job.

DrPepz
3rd Dec 2009, 16:31
Twiggs: Let's do the sums on what an entry level SQ flight attendant would have earned in the last FY:

Basic salary of $1500 * 17 months = $25,500
2000 hours of flying: 2000 * 9 = $18,000
Meal allowances: 80 nights * 120 = about $10,000
Overnight allowances: I don't know

Total excluding overnight allowances: $53,500

My former colleague who quit SQ after flying for them for 2 years to join our company said she took a substantial paycut by joining corporate at an entry level grad position, and back then we were on about S$50ish k per year.

So I wouldn't even dream of calling SQ cabin crew underpaid, though this year they probably had far fewer hours since flights were cancelled.

If Jetstar is paying less than half of what SQ is (even after all the hard selling through inflight sales), why is it that people join them? There are plenty of jobs in Singapore that pay more than $2000 a month fixed with guaranteed 13 months of payment or more.

tail wheel
5th Dec 2009, 11:02
The Asian FA's will not be working on 457 Visas, which are only available to ASCO Code 1000 to 4000.

ASCO Code 599613 - Flight Attendant
ASCO Code 599611 - Flight Service Director

Foreign Workers on 457 Visas are required to be paid "industry standard" wages (previously an MSL of $41,850 pa.)

skybed
5th Dec 2009, 21:36
a few ex SQ F/A's (even CSM's) in Qf now. if you ask them about their wages in SQ they tell you a little (not much) less then in Qf but you get all the benefits of locals in Sin. Mortgages at very low rates, health system which actually works, etc. on balance not too bad, but there are always different ways of looking at it.:ok:

airsupport
5th Dec 2009, 23:04
I really cannot see what all the fuss is about. :confused:

Over the years I have flown all over the World with Aussie registered aircraft, on Aussie AOCs, with Aussie Pilots and Cabin Crew.

This includes both internationally and domestically in the USA, although we did have Crew Visas, and internationally AND also domestically in Vietnam where we had NO special Visas or work permits. :ok:

So doesn't it work both ways? :confused:

Metro man
6th Dec 2009, 01:10
Where you operating scheduled domestic airservices in Vietnam with seats generally available to the public ?

If so was the aircraft wet leased to a Vietnamese operator.

Are Jetstar Australia wet leasing aircraft from Jetstar Asia ?

(A wet lease is a leasing arrangement whereby one airline (lessor) provides an aircraft, complete crew, maintenance, and insurance (ACMI) to another airline (lessee), which pays by hours operated. The lessee provides fuel, covers airport fees, and any other duties, taxes, etc. The flight uses the flight number of the lessee. A wet lease generally lasts one month to two years; anything less would be considered an ad-hoc charter.)

So doesn't it work both ways?

Not necessarily, just because you can do something in one country doesn't mean you can do it in another.

Eg. You can bring fresh meat, fruit, vegetables into Singapore from Australia. Try bringing a single piece of fruit into Australia from Singapore.

airsupport
6th Dec 2009, 02:08
Were you operating scheduled domestic airservices in Vietnam with seats generally available to the public ?

If so was the aircraft wet leased to a Vietnamese operator.

Are Jetstar Australia wet leasing aircraft from Jetstar Asia ?


That would be yes, yes, and how would I know. ;)

Yes mainly all their International flights at the time, but also some domestic flights between Saigon and Hanoi.

Yes it was a wet lease, and to be fair most of the Cabin Crew were Vietnamese, as were some Pilots after a while, but the Pursers, Engineers, Captains and most of the First Officers were Aussies.

Just seems a bit of a double standard to me, nobody objected to us being there.

Metro man
6th Dec 2009, 02:58
So the wet lease to operate in Vietnam would have been approved by the appropriate agencies over there and all necessary permission obtained. ie palms greased.

So do Jetstar have the appropriate permission/permits/visas to operate with foreign crews in Australia or can identify which regulations allow them to do so ?

frigatebird
6th Dec 2009, 03:28
So Summa, do you think we will hear 'someone in management' got a fine and a kick up the b.m in due course, for approving it in the first place..?

Have worked in o'seas countries where the red tape paper pushers (who do little other useful work, and get in the way, mosttimes), ENSURE that foreign nationals have fee-paid-in-advance Work Permit and Residency Permit organised by the airline to comply with local laws. Or they are on a plane out. One favourite rule is that they can't even be approved/issued while the person is actually in the country at the time. Have had to send a new pilot out of the country on an afternoon flight, rush the papers to the Government office for stamping, and bring him back the next morning.

Can't see that happening in an 'enlightened' developed country like Australia. More likely someone in Government in Immigration will just say that they didn't know it was happening, hadn't been informed (what do the staff DO), bend the rules 'this once' (just like with the boat people who lob up on the coast and expect to be welcome, Australia is a big country- but they aren't aware most of it is desert and getting drier with water shortages, but then, of course, they don't plan to live in the centre bits), slap a wrist, -no fine or something that would be a proper PENALTY to not consider it again. Its the laid back Aussie way M-a-a-t-e, give people the benefit of the doubt, don't do it again, look after the rest of the World but tax the Australian employee (the ones left with a job) to pay for it all.
Slap an Executive or a Company with a BIG DISINCENTIVE,
-NO WAY.

airsupport
6th Dec 2009, 03:47
So the wet lease to operate in Vietnam would have been approved by the appropriate agencies over there and all necessary permission obtained.

Well yes of course, we operated AS the Government owned Vietnam Airlines, but you could still say that in those days we were doing jobs that Vietnamese ''should'' have been doing.

assymetric
6th Dec 2009, 04:48
If this is the case:

1. Have these cc from SIN been trained by JQ Australia under their AOC
2. Has anyone bothered to contact immigration about illegal workers that JQ is using.

Assy

John Citizen
7th Dec 2009, 03:02
Just because the base is in Singapore it may not mean the flight attendents are Singaporean. Could someone confirm the nationality of the crews ?


Singapore, Japan, Thailand

Also do the F/As hold ASIC cards as they are accessing restricted areas at Australian airports ?


Yes, they all hold ASICs