Some Good news from the Stan

[VinRouge]

Afghanistan: British troops in Helmand kill 80 Taliban in 10 days of fighting - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/6569206/Afghanistan-British-troops-in-Helmand-kill-80-Taliban-in-10-days-of-fighting.html)

The first battle began last week when soldiers from the Grenadier Guard's No2 Company, commanded by Major Richard Green, ambushed Taliban fighters, who had been launching a series of "shoot and scoot" attacks against the British base.
Troops lured the Taliban towards their positions. Lying in wait were two teams of snipers, who immediately shot dead four Taliban gunmen as they approached the scene. A further four insurgents were killed as they attempted to attack the British base.
The following day another battle erupted when British troops patrolling in the area were attacked. As the troops withdrew to their base, around 20 Taliban mounted a daring attack but virtually all were killed or injured in the assault.
The Taliban continued to attack the base every day for most of last week but each assault was repelled, with the Taliban suffering heavy casualties.
In one incident, several Taliban fighters were killed in a Javelin missile strike, while the insurgent leaders were holding an attack Shura (meeting) prior to an assault.

Captain James Young, 30, the reconnaissance platoon commander, said that the battle, which lasted 13 hours, had dealt a major blow to the Taliban force operating in the area.
He said; "It was a very surgical operation. We set the trap and the Taliban walked into it. The battle went very well from our point of view. There was not a single point when we were being controlled by the Taliban.
"This was a classic operation. We moved in, 'recced' the area, studied the approaches and waited. We had the Afghan National Army and Afghan Police embedded with us and they were fantastic.
"They are our eyes and ears. They see the things we miss and they know when the atmospherics are right. The Taliban were trying to impose their influence upon the local elders and our job is to stop them. We are here to allow the villagers to live in peace and get on with their lives. The locals don't want the Taliban here. Many of them are from Pakistan and are loathed by the people in Nad e'Ali."

I hope they all enjoy their 72 goats. Good on the lads involved.

[Laarbruch72]

Awesome news, thank you VinRouge. All too often the news reports are negative, it's nice to hear of a significant victory. :ok:

[Cardinal Puff]

Goats? Thought it was cartons of yoghurt...:confused:

Well done, lads!:ok:

[rmac]

Good tactical sense from the troops, which is all that can be expected of them.

I also agree wholeheartedly with the comments made by the battle group CO in the telegraph article, unfortunately his message, although reported in the article, was somewhat undermined by the tone of the headline.

I seem to remember that it is generally agreed in some corners that the downhill turn in US efforts during the vietnam war could be charted by over reliance on body count as means of measuring successful progress.

Caveat emptor....

[Two's in]

I seem to remember that it is generally agreed in some corners that the downhill turn in US efforts during the vietnam war could be charted by over reliance on body count as means of measuring successful progress.

Very astute observation rmac...

[Gainesy]

NB cunning inject of the Afghan National Police are top chaps, inject from Truth Central?

Still, nice that the lads slotted 80-odd tossers.

[green granite]

We set the trap and the Taliban walked into it.

Oh dear! How long before we hear the huggy fluffs saying "You mustn't set a trap for these people it infringes their human rights" etc. :ugh::ugh:

Well done the Army.

[Non Emmett]

Marvellous news. I'm a civvie and more of the public ought to read to read these pages to become rather better informed in respect of what is going on in Afghanistan. I think most know you are doing more and more with ever fewer resources but in general I think you are hiding your light under a bushel and we could do with being better informed.

Most public chit chat involving the Forces revolves round the awful casuallty figures we read of and in respect of the RAF most know little beyond the Red Arrows.

I suggest keep The Reds going but let them stay in messes and not in posh hotels and let's have a little austerity introduced in to the set up.

[Gainesy]

They don't use posh hotels any more, they got fed up with being asked for exhaust and tyre fitting quotes by the other guests.

[barnstormer1968]

I must admit that when I had read the article, I came to a similar conclusion to Gainesy, regarding the mention of the Afghan police.

This was no reflection on the Brit troops, or the Afghan police, but rather the attitude I have come to form about the UK government and its spin machine

[G&T ice n slice]

Oh dear! How long before we hear the huggy fluffs saying "You mustn't set a trap for these people it infringes their human rights" etc


Ahem:

I think it's terrible setting traps for these innocent freedom fighters. By all means set an ambush, but our positions should be marked out with big red pointers and large signs clearly stating "warning ambush ahead". Also government health warnings like there are on cigarett packets and on alcoholic beverage containers.

Is that the sort of thing?

[Navaleye]

Absolutely fantastic news, well done the army for engaging the enemy more closely. More of the same please.

[pr00ne]

Oh Dear!

Read any of the plethora of books that have appeared on our bookshelves over the last 2 years, from guys actually serving out in Afghanistan, on the front line, and you will find that this is a weekly, if not daily event. They are getting hit hard, VERY hard out there and this sort of body count is a regular occurrence.

But of course that does not fit in well with the wailing and gnashing of teeth we see on these forums every day, where we are told that we never win in Afghanistan, and that we never WILL win in Afghanistan, and that we should pull the troops out NOW.

What is this nonsense re the "huggy and fluffy" left wing types who you THINK, or should I say, HOPE, will be wringing their hands over this?

If they don't exist, you have to invent them....................

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Oh Dear!

Read any of the plethora of books that have appeared on our bookshelves over the last 2 years, from guys actually serving out in Afghanistan, on the front line, and you will find that this is a weekly, if not daily event. They are getting hit hard, VERY hard out there and this sort of body count is a regular occurrence.

But of course that does not fit in well with the wailing and gnashing of teeth we see on these forums every day, where we are told that we never win in Afghanistan, and that we never WILL win in Afghanistan, and that we should pull the troops out NOW.

What is this nonsense re the "huggy and fluffy" left wing types who you THINK, or should I say, HOPE, will be wringing their hands over this?

If they don't exist, you have to invent them....................


Pr00ne,

So how do you see it ending up, and what makes you think you have a better insight than those who currently serve and currently serve in theatre :=

[barnstormer1968]

G&T ice n slice.

Your idea was badly thought out.....Warning signs are white triangles with a red border!!!. If we were to use your idea, then the Taliban would be able to mount a court action as the signs did not meet regulations:}:}:}

[pr00ne]

Seldomfitforpurpose,

"and what makes you think you have a better insight than those who currently serve and currently serve in theatre?"

I don't. Read what I wrote!

I was talking about the opinion of the authors of a score or so of books over the last two years, authors who ARE serving, in a range of outfits and ranks IN theatre!


Jeez.................

[G&T ice n slice]

Warning signs are white triangles with a red border!!!.


ahhhh darn!
I'm no good at this huggfluffy business...

[Melchett01]

It's always nice to get a bit of good news from theatre - God knows we're short on it across the board at the moment.

But at the risk of being a kill-joy, I hope these stats don't lead to senior decision makers getting overly excited and taking it as a vindication of whatever policy they are trying to espouse at the time. As Robert Mcnamara discovered during Vietnam, you can't fight a counter-insurgency campaign based on body counts. Just because you kill ten times more than he manages to kill doesn't mean you have been successful.

Afghanistan, like Vietnam, is about ideas and ideology. It doesn't matter how many you kill, you have to counter the ideas that those individuals believed in in the first place. Then and only then will you be successful. So whilst removing 80 odd Taliban in a week is good, repeating that every week will still not bring about a lasting solution to the problem.

[Grimweasel]

Is there an Election in the UK looming? Or am I just a Cynic??

BBC NEWS | UK | UK Politics | Brown plans Afghan handover talks (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8361634.stm)

Seems Brown has now realised that the Afghan 'War' is not so popular with the UK's voting public...

[Load Toad]

Shouldn't soldiers wear hi-visibility jackets so that the general public going about their business can see them easily and keep well away? Some sort of taped off area for battles would be a good move too, well signposted and advance notice published.

[TBM-Legend]

...yes and don't forget that the lads have a proper tea/lunch room for meal breaks and they must keep to "fight and duty" times...:uhoh:

[cornish-stormrider]

ANTI HUGGY FLUFF MODE ON,

Hot Diggety Damn, at the risk of offending groups of people......
Good Work Fella's (an lasses if any were involved). 'tis nice to know that there is some stand up boxhead (yep - derogatory, sue me) slotting going on. There is a mission of war going on - nice to hear that the troops are not just getting blown up for no return.
If the Terry's set up devious, cynical and nasty IED's that are killing and maiming without discriminating for anyone then I say have a nice big ambush back at you.

[dickym]

....those bullet thingies..........bit sharp for safety?

[Gainesy]

Absolutely, best file the tips flat eh?

[glad rag]

Absolutely, best file the tips flat eh?

British soldiers also complaining about 5.56mm NATO | The Firearm Blog (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/29/british-soldiers-also-complaining-about-5-56mm-nato/)

[VinRouge]

Be even better once the yanks field this in the stan:

Test of laser from C-130H melts hood of car - Air Force News, news from Iraq - Air Force Times (http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/10/airforce_tactical_laser_100209w/)

COIL is a mixture of chlorine and hydrogen peroxide molecules that stimulates iodine to produce the laser energy. It has the shortest wavelength – 1.315 μm – of any high-power chemical laser. It also is closed-cycle to prevent harmful exhaust from being emitted into the atmosphere and to allow the ATL to operate at any altitude. The beam, which is 10 cm wide, has a low heating power for targeting distant objects for up to 100 shots, marking it the “long-range blowtorch.” The laser also produces a 4-in.-diameter beam that can slice through metal at a distance of nine miles away.

The 100-kW-class ATL is fired through a rotating turret positioned underneath the aircraft. It moves at the speed of light, firing at several targets in rapid succession. Dwell times vary, depending on the distance of the target, and it takes approximately 5 s for the laser to relocate between each destroyed entity.

Turning Terry into pork scratchings from 30Km has got to be a bonus.

[deeceethree]

Turning Terry into pork scratchings from 30Km has got to be a bonus. Whoops! You might offend them if they think their journey into the afterlife will be as a porcine snake!

[VinRouge]

My heart f*cking bleeds.

[G&T ice n slice]

Umm
regarding the ammo

when I were a lad & had to do the CCF thing at skool we had the .303"

Then Nato adopted the 7.62 stuff, which if my math is correct is about .300"

Now you're telling me they're using 5.56 - that's 0.22" ???

But that's wot we used for the indoor range, and it just about got thru the paper target 25 yards away

WTF is going on ???

[Dundiggin']

Surely it's called 'maths' - even in Cumbria........

[Melchett01]

G&T

If memory serves, there are a number of reasons for this - but I'm sure others would be able to give you a definitive answer or correct me if I'm wrong.

1. It was probably cheaper.
2. Standardization across NATO i.e. with the US ammo
3. IIRC, the 7.62 would cause some serious damage and more than likely kill you if it hit you. If you were dead on the battlefield, there was no need for your mates to stop what they were doing to try and assist or to get you out of the area at that time. However, the 5.56 by contrast is more of a wounding than killing round. It will still make your eyes water, but I believe that is the whole point - rather than kill one, why not wound one and take one or 2 of his mates out at the same time by forcing them to help you. Of course, that is taking a very western / CNN type view - who is to say that the old Red Army or indeed the Taliban would stop to assist casualties in the middle of battle.

That's as much as I remember, although I did hear rumours a few years back that they were even considering a 4mm high velocity round, which while smaller and lighter had such high levels of kinetic energy that the trauma caused as it passed through the body more than made up for its size.

As I say, there are probably others on here far more acquainted with ammo type issues and theory than I am. I still work on the theory that as far as weapons go, the bigger the number the better, and never never anything less than 0.45!

[G&T ice n slice]

Thanks Melchett. All seems a bit odd to me. From reading (& talking to a few old soldiers) about the eastern front, the red army didn't wory to much about dead & wounded, just kept rolling forward.

p.s. yes "maths" but I work with lots of persons from the U.S., and lots of persons who were at U.S. universities and they all tend to say 'math'.
also I am not the wrolds best tripist

p.p.s. I also say "sidewalk"

[Laarbruch72]

But that's wot we used for the indoor range, and it just about got thru the paper target 25 yards away

You're thinking purely in terms of calibre, and not considering:
1) The length (and therefore the mass) of the projectile. (The 5.56mm bullet head is much larger than a .22 rimfire bullet head even though in cross section they are comparable).
2) The size of the "charge" part of the cartridge and therefore the velocity of the bullet head. The 5.56 cartridge contains about 8 times the quantity of powder that the .22 cartridge did.
If you ever get the chance, compare the two cartridges in person. They're not the same thing at all.

[Load Toad]

I thought I read once (I'm not and never have been in the Forces) that one additional reason is the weight of the rounds. You can carry a lot more of them and in a fight you need a lot of rounds so you can lay down more suppressive fire.

Anyway - can't they use fluffy bullets for taking out huggy luvvies?

[highcirrus]

I recently received this by email:

From a Recon Marine in Afghanistan

From the Sand Pit. It's freezing here. I'm sitting on hard, cold dirt between rocks and shrubs at the base of the Hindu Kush Mountains, along the Dar 'yoi Pomir River, watching a hole that leads to a tunnel that leads to a cave. Stake out, my friend, and no pizza delivery for thousands of miles.

I also glance at the area around my ass every ten to fifteen seconds to avoid another scorpion sting. I've actually given up battling the chiggers and sand fleas, but them scorpions give a jolt like a cattle prod. Hurts like a bastard. The antidote tastes like transmission fluid but God bless the Marine Corps for the five vials of it in my pack.

The one truth the Taliban cannot escape is that, believe it or not, they are human beings, which means they have to eat food and drink water. That requires couriers and that's where an old bounty hunter like me comes in handy. I track the couriers, locate the tunnel entrances and storage facilities, type the info into the handheld, shoot the coordinates up to the satellite link that tells the air commanders where to drop the hardware. We bash some heads for a while, then I track and record the new movement. It's all about intelligence. We haven't even brought in the snipers yet. These scurrying rats have no idea what they're in for. We are but days away from cutting off supply lines and allowing the eradication to begin.

I dream of bin Laden waking up to find me standing over him with my boot on his throat as I spit into his face and plunge my nickel-plated Bowie knife through his frontal lobe. But you know me, I'm a romantic. I've said it before and I'll say it again: This country blows, man. It's not even a country. There are no roads, there's no infrastructure, there's no government. This is an inhospitable, rock pit **** hole ruled by eleventh century warring tribes. There are no jobs here like we know jobs. Afghanistan offers two ways for a man to support his family: join the opium trade or join the army. That's it. Those are your options. Oh, I forgot, you can also live in a refugee camp and eat plum-sweetened, crushed beetle paste and squirt mud like a goose with stomach flu, if that's your idea of a party. But the smell alone of those 'tent cities of the walking dead' is enough to hurl you into the poppy fields to cheerfully scrape bulbs for eighteen hours a day.

I've been living with these Tajiks and Uzbeks, and Turkmen and even a couple of Pushtuns, for over a month-and-a-half now, and this much I can say for sure: These guys, all of 'em, are Huns... Actual, living Huns.. They LIVE to fight. It's what they do. It's ALL they do.. They have no respect for anything, not for their families, nor for each other, nor for themselves. They claw at one another as a way of life. They play polo with dead calves and force their five-year-old sons into human cockfights to defend the family honor. Huns, roaming packs of savage, heartless beasts who feed on each other's barbarism. Cavemen with AK-47's. Then again, maybe I'm just cranky.

I'm freezing my ass off on this stupid hill because my lap warmer is running out of juice, and I can't recharge it until the sun comes up in a few hours. Oh yeah! You like to write letters, right? Do me a favor, Bizarre. Write a letter to CNN and tell Wolf and Anderson and that awful, sneering, pompous Aaron Brown to stop calling the Taliban 'smart..' They are not smart. I suggest CNN invest in a dictionary because the word they are looking for is 'cunning.' The Taliban are cunning, like jackals and hyenas and wolverines.. They are sneaky and ruthless and when confronted, cowardly. They are hateful, malevolent parasites who create nothing and destroy everything else. Smart.. Pfft. Yeah, they're real smart.

They've spent their entire lives reading only one book (and not a very good one, as books go) and consider hygiene and indoor plumbing to be products of the devil. They're still figuring out how to work a Bic lighter. Talking to a Taliban warrior about improving his quality of life is like trying to teach an ape how to hold a pen; eventually he just gets frustrated and sticks you in the eye with it.

OK, enough. Snuffle will be up soon, so I have to get back to my hole. Covering my tracks in the snow takes a lot of practice, but I'm good at it.
Please, I tell you and my fellow Americans to turn off the TV sets and move on with your lives. The story line you are getting from CNN and other news agencies is utter bull**** and designed not to deliver truth but rather to keep you glued to the screen through the commercials. We've got this one under control. The worst thing you guys can do right now is sit around analyzing what we're doing over here because you have no idea what we're doing and really, you don't want to know. We are your military and we are doing what you sent us here to do.

You wanna help? Buy Bonds America.

Saucy Jack
Recon Marine, Afghanistan.
Semper Fi

"Freedom is not free...but the U.S. Marine Corps will pay most of your share"

[Gainesy]

saw a TV prog last night with Barret (0.50cal sniper rifle fame) showing off its new 6.68mm cal assault rifle.Classic compromise between the big/heavy v. small/fast camps. Trouble is, prog was on one of the sat channels so may be a few years old, nothing on there to date it as far as I could see.

That load of old toot has been around since 2002 Cirrus.

[airborne_artist]

That load of old toot has been around since 2002 Cirrus.

Late 2001 was the earliest mention of it on Google.

[Photoplanet]

The smaller rounds mean you can carry more, but the performance, particularly at longer ranges means you have to use more to get the stop result.

If you succeed in getting a well placed shot on your opponent, you expect him to have the decency to stop trying to kill you, particularly if you are advancing, and you will soon reach his position, not knowing if he is dead or just waiting.

In the USA, a lot of the Police departments now use .40 calibre handguns, as they offer more instant knockdown power than the 9mm. There have been instances of criminals so high on drugs that they have been shot a dozen times or more, and still keep going, unaware that they are actually dying.

Old quote- "9mm is just .45 set to stun".

[highcirrus]

Jeez, it's taken them a long time to get to my part on their mailing list! Wonder if he's still waiting for OBL to appear in his sights?

[melmothtw]

80 human beings killed is "marvelous news"? Personally, I find such blood-lust very distasteful and extremely depressing.

Whatever your thoughts on the war or the Taliban, each one of them thought they were fighting for right (just like "our boys"), and each one of them will have had a family who will now be grieving for them (again, just like "our boys").

Even if you take it to be good news, so what? As in Vietnam, the 80 killed today will be replaced by 100 tomorrow...

[Gainesy]

Nah, Charlie don't do mountains.

[topgas]

The beam, which is 10 cm wide, has a low heating power for targeting distant objects for up to 100 shots, marking it the “long-range blowtorch.” The laser also produces a 4-in.-diameter beam that can slice through metal at a distance of nine miles away.


The 4-in beam must be awsome, being 1.6mm wider than the 10 cm one :ugh: