Falcon 2000 Fire at Biggin Hill

[equine rotorhead]

Anyone any information about the Falcon 2000 fire at Biggin Hill yesterday.
Heard it was taxying.

[Flintstone]

Netjets Europe aircraft on a maintenance test run. Brake fire, crew and engineers evacuated successfully, extensive damage.

Let's wait for the AAIB report shall we?

[hedgehopper]

Why?

Did they have the intention of flight?

HH

[Waldi]

nobody knows what was wrong! wee will see!

[doubleu-anker]

Not good at all.

I wonder if this "brake defect" should have been picked up sooner?

It must have been flying or intended to fly as it had crew on board.

Could the "dragging brake" not have been detected sooner? E.G., more power required for taxi, to have got the brake get as hot as it obviously did. If it had been on a flight, one would hope the decreased acceleration would have been spotted on an accelerometer readout, before V1.

I have great respect for wheels, tyres and brakes, among other devices on aircraft as I am very aware, that these items can very quickly lead to the loss of an aircraft, should faults arise or they become neglected.

All due respects to engineers I am always suspicious of an aircraft that has just come out of maintenance.

[PA200]

doubleu-anker,
just one simple question for you:
Did you read post #2 or any other post above before you wrote your post ?
:ugh:

[doubleu-anker]

I don't like the tone of your post and a "first post" at that! How dear you, Whipper snapper.

To answer your question, yes I mean no, no I mean yes....

[Tony Mabelis]

As an engineer, I am always suspicious of what has been happening to the aircraft between maintenance!!

Always check your accelerometer before lift off, what a W......r!

[doubleu-anker]

Hello Tony!!

Just as well for aviation you have retired. How long have you been working on the Falcon 200ex then? That's a new one, even for me. Senility can creep in before one knows it.

Need to check acceleration read outs well before lift off old chap.

You strike me as one who has never made mistakes. Did you ever make a mistake Tony? I make make mistakes almost every day, and dont have a big problem admitting the fact.

[Tony Mabelis]

I was qualified on the F200(0)Ex when I was employed at BMW. However, I've never flown one, so unaware of the modern finer points of departing terra firma.
As a pax. I would much prefer the driver to be monitoring the A.S.I on take off.

I'm still working for a VVip operation to the west of you, operating Gulfstream and Airbus's

Have we met?
Tony

[His dudeness]

All due respects to engineers I am always suspicious of an aircraft that has just come out of maintenance.

Very true. I had my fair share with that. You mechanics make mistakes. So do we pilots. But often the mechs mistakes are invisible until one tries to fly.

A short list of what has happened to me in just 20 years.

1) Fuel line in tank not put together properly. Found out after repositioning from maintenance and refuelling. (and then leaking like hell) Could have been a torch.

2) Outflow valve not connected.

3) Janitrol heater: ignitor taken out, cleaned and not put back in.

4) Phase on engines not done but documented. Came to light as no sample results came back from spectral analyses.

5) Fold up seat harnesses in KingAir fitted by simply drilling a hole in aft pressure bulkhead and puttiing screws through these, quite contrary to the instructions of Beech. Found out 8 years later when cabin was refurbished!

6) Wrong pressure gauge changed and wrongly documented (aks to change emer blow down bottle gauge and emer brake bottle gauge was exchanged)

7) Wrong material used on a bleed line. resulted in hot air leaving said tube after 15 minutes of flight....

8) Engines after overhaul completely misrigged (PT-6) Papers signed!!!

9) Whitnessed an engine run up trial with the fuel nozzles not secured. Fuel spray all over the place.

10) Trim cable on CJ misrigged, trim was hard to operate.

11) Airplane that I flew on fell of stands because of improper securing (Citation III)


And a lot more of little things that were forgotten or done wrongly.

Again, we all make mistakes. Before you go one and say that all of this probably happened at smallish mx providers....all of these things happened at very well known mx facilities just like AeroDienst, RUAG, JetAviation, Beech service center etc.

OTOH I have seen pilots do things....

This post is intended to make folks aware of the need to be very cautious when accepting aeroplanes from maintenance, not slagging engineers.
A lot of pilots just come and take the airplane from the shop....

[Brizeguy]

All due respects to engineers I am always suspicious of an aircraft that has just come out of maintenance.

And so you should be. If you are not asking what work has been carried out and expecting the unexpected you are not doing your job.

This however will not be on a list that you can simply work your way through!:}

Any work an engineer carries out stays with that aircraft. Pilots simply fly it and walk away job done. Flight data recorders, Voice recorders, QAR's etc. are changing this.

Flight deck video monitoring will be with us soon I'm sure.
A cheap and simple iphone app. could record everything pilots do/say. Probably be on every car dashboard first though.

[doubleu-anker]

Tony.

You probably don't know me as I was being a smart a**e in my address to you.

Yes I agree. Airspeed monitoring is important on take off. Of course it is. However, it is the rate of airspeed increase (hopefully it is increasing!) that may give a clue, something maybe amiss. Whether the crew in this instance got airborne I don't know.

Picking an aircraft up from maintenance, no matter how much work has been done or how little and flying the thing, you have made yourself a "test pilot" of some degree, like it or not.

[themoonsaballoon]

This Aircraft was NOT on departure but conducting High Speed taxi checks for troubleshooting with Aircrew and Maintenance on board.
TMAB

[Evanelpus]

Phew, so much vitriole!

Equine only asked a simple question but at least it looks like answer 14 has given him the answer he was after.

[glamourjetgirl]

Hi Falcon Drivers...

Am a victim of the recession :(...Anyone know of any Falcon hostie jobs going? (experience on type 900 + 50)

Please PM me with any info, much appreciated!

[redsnail]

Flintstone answered the question in post #2.

[Hankers]

Anyone know if the airframe be written off? I imagine fairly substantial damage if it really got hold. Someone must have pictures!!

[deskjockey101]

Hi

You could try us at us at VistaJet. I am not involved in crew recruitment but what i do know we are taking delivery of a new Challenger 605, and 2 x Ch 850's in the next 12 weeks and so will need great cabin attendants.

You can apply through the website, or drop me a PM with your details and CV and i will send it on for you if you prefer.

Hope this helps

DJ101

[Vino Collapso]

Anyone know if the airframe be written off? I imagine fairly substantial damage if it really got hold. Someone must have pictures!!

Yep but they are not for public consumption. No decision yet as to what can be done for this airframe, if anything.

The vultures round here will have to wait for time and AAIB. :=

[Hankers]

I'm not trying to be a vulture, i'm an NJE G driver and just interested in the occurance. Was it a classic?

[Cpt_Schmerzfrei]

You will find some information on the Bom Dia portal.

[Hankers]

That was the e-mail we all got. Come on, someone has pictures. No one has answered if it was a classic or a EaSy

[Vino Collapso]

CS-DFE.....work it out from there....

[Hankers]

Wow this is surprisingly hard work. I thought the way Pprune worked was incident +1hr pictures published. +2 numerous hypotheses put forward as to cause. Then for the following 3 weeks discussion and arguments on minute details.

[equine rotorhead]

Check PM vino.

[Paradise Lost]

I have had to refresh this post to keep it on Page 1 of Biz Jets etc.
I can't believe you guys can just leave it at this, and wait for the AAIB report as suggested by that boring git Flintster at post#2.
Let's have loads more pointless conjecture, together with some discussions on how the brake system works on an HS 125, or in fact any other aircraft not actually produced by M. Dassault.
Don't let me down chaps.
Anyone know what the make of the first attending fire-engine was?

[Vino Collapso]

I am fairly certain it was a Carmichael.

A big Yellow one.:ok:

[Paradise Lost]

Wot, not a red Dennis?

[hollingworthp]

Green Goddess? :ok:

[pma 32dd]

The Green Goddess?

What was Diana Moran doing on board? Was she in a leotard (flame retardant maybe?)

I sense this threads closing soon...............

:)

[typhoid]

and discuss....

Air Accidents Investigation: Falcon 2000, CS-DFE (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/december_2010/falcon_2000__cs_dfe.cfm)

[bizjets101]

Has the aircraft returned to service? I see lots of photos on the net of CS-DFE, but none taken since the incident.

PS typhoid, appreciate the update - thanks.

[jackx123]

Me think it will be a long time before service.

400c will for sure have damaged the heat treatment in the wing of the 6061, which is one of the most common alloys used in a/c. Melting point is around 660c.

[captain coldfront]

Wrong my friend, the Phoenix flies again.....

[jackx123]

who fixed it? the same guys that did the breaks?

[Cloud Chaser]

After eight accelerate-stop runs, each one faster than the last, is it really surprising the brakes were getting a bit hot :confused:

[Tony Mabelis]

In the old days it was called common sense.

These days you have to go on a Human Factors course, and someone has to explain it to you!:ugh:

That brakes get hotter the more you use them, obviously was not covered on the course.

[CL300]

the report from the authorities is very good IMHO;

Critic is easy; aftermath talk is even easier. The aircraft flies again, and nobody got hurt... case closed.... next please ?

ho yes, the day you will have your plane in an AAIB; just hope to be able to read it...and had worked for a fair employer...

[763 jock]

"The salient FDR parameters are presented at Figure 2
and show that in total, eight high-speed taxi runs were
completed over a period of just under 16 minutes. The
first seven runs achieved speeds of between 60 kt and
90 kt".

A 34 page report to get to the cause of a brake fire. Where has simple common sense gone these days? Unbelievable that any professional pilot would not be asking questions after two "RTO's".:rolleyes:

[jackx123]

76 totally agree. Common sense.

IMHO if I was the owner, case would not be closed without proper NDT.

ALOHA air springs to my mind where metal fatigue, due to the many cycles, led to a cabriolet configuration and only a few spars prevented a catastrophic outcome.

She will likely fly safely for many cycles but "what if" in say a few years from now.

[CL300]

If you had a bit of knowledge about how Dassault is dealing with THEIR planes, you will not even ask yourself the question. And if you had a bit of NetJets insight, you will not as well.

Dassault, will not accept in their active registry ANY airframe on which they have FULL confidence that it performs as well as when outside the factory on day one.

The wing was changed, the eddies and rays did not show any attachement damages, nor the flight testing after repair. After such a reparation the SRM has VERY clear test card to be flown, and SPECIFIC data to be collected before having the plane back in active duty.

comparing the aloha incident to this one is poor and without any grounds to compare.

As for the crews are concerned, the mistake made ( as AAIB is clearly depicting it) was the transfer of competence from the maintenance manager to the engineer at BIG; this was inadequate since this particular individual never performed such checks in any of his previous experiences. The plane crew was mislead by this and made the mistake. As well as performing this as a maintenance check and not a flight check.
During OCF, or testing, on EVERY single one of them , you cannot perform these if not in possession of a test card; this card will waive the normal ops of the plane, for the duration of the exercise. If not with this card on board, would it be for high speed taxing to full devellopped stalls, you are NOT legal.

Aftermath are always easy to comment, and i am sure that nobody here had EVER made an error for sure !! ;-)

Hang loose !

[763 jock]

Test card or not, 8 high speed taxi runs/RTO's in 16 minutes will only ever have one outcome. No excuses.

[CL300]

Dassault is looking for test pilots in Istres... You should go, since you can compute all limits from the top of your head...Here is the address to apply :

Dassault Istres
Essais en vol
13804 Istres Cedex
France
Tél. : + 33 (0)4 42 56 77 77
Fax : + 33 (0)4 42 56 70 03

Make sure to mention your screen name, i can assure you a fair assesment :cool:

[Rusty Trombone]

What a big mess this was? I was in Biggin Hill when this happened couple of thoughts.
1) What was they thinking? I think personally after the 3 or 4th RTO I would have taxied the aircraft back and reviewed further.
2) Why was a Ferry for MX flight not performed to Paris to DFS?
3) What was the FA doing on board? this clearly makes the commanders decision he was not fully informed accordingly on the real pressing issues.

I witnessed the whole thing happening I was with a aircraft at the time and the CRM was terrible the Safety escape was at best something from the carry on films, they all exited the aircraft and just stood around. The Fire Truck arrived and ordered them away from the aircraft ASAP.

The NJE procedures need altering big time on this, you have MX controllers and MX managers whom often have no real live experiance on type instructing the PIC to carry out OCF and Test flights or procedures. In addition the Pilot Fleet Managers are too wrapped up in pie charts.

If DM was still there it would have had a different outcome.

its disgraceful what happened and it was the lisboa monkeys driving this what caused the whole thing to happen.

Although it was investigated by the AAIB as it was on their turf I wonder what INAC would have done.

[orion1210]

As a LAE I'd be interested in hearing what the cause of the original snag was. Does anybody know?

Another example of getting 'blinkered,' not taking a step back and thinking about the bigger picture.

Happy new year!

[Waldi]

I was flying FE last tour, its like new!!!:ok: