Martin Baker Pins

[Cougar]

Can anyone confirm the rumour that if you punch out using an MB seat, that you no longer get the MB Pin sent to you by courier? Someone said they finished doing that in the 90's???

[PTT]

Usually, the pin is left in the wreckage. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

I did get a pin back, though. Mine was given to me by the squippers, nicely placed back in the handle and mounted on a mahogony base.

PTT

[Dogstar]

Is there some foolproof method of ensuring a pilot cannot take off unless the seat has been made live? There seem to be so many instances of pins/seat live levers being forgotten which one day will result in a fatality.

[Double Hush]

Wot, you mean like the seat in the Gnat that, apparently, was armed by a lever which, in the safe position, stuck into your neck thereby making it impossible NOT to notice that the seat was safe. The seat was not made by MB but, I believe, by the aircraft makers, Folland. This was before my time so is based on 'war stories' regaled in the pub!

[Tripe Loch]

Correct about the lever on the Gnat seat. It did protrude and was indeed uncomfortable in the forward position. As for impossible to take off with it in the forward position, as with anything where there is a will there is a way.. .In the late 60s/early 70s the Reds were flying this aircraft. In the crewroom at Valley, a publicity photograph clearly showed a pilot with his head well forward to maintain the visual references for very close formation. Unfortunately, (highlighted inside a big red ring by the FSO) the lever was in the forward position. The reason that it was forward was given honestly by the pilot; due to the high workload, concentration levels and head position required he was unaware of the lever and at no time could he feel it. . .Murphy's Law is still one we ignore at our peril.

[Iron City]

In olden days the Escapack seats built by Mac AIR for A-4s and A-7s had headnockers in the top middle of the seat that it was impossible to get in the seat without moving that lever up to arm it. And you couldn't move that lever up without taking out the upper pin. Maybe the foolproof way to assure the seat is armed is follow the checklist?

Not as sure about the MB GRU-5 and GRU-7 seats in F-14s and A-6s but there have been several grusome incidents where techs have shot themselves into the overhead while messing in the cockpit when the seat was supposidly safe. Check Navy Safety Center for details. MB Mk 10 in the T-45 has similar design to the GRU-7 and I believe a headknocker.

[ 01 March 2002: Message edited by: Iron City ]</p>

[Dogstar]

The headknocker system in the Escapac seats sounds great, but only protruded about 5 inches and the seat was only made live after strapping in. However, even with such mechnisms, it was still possible for pilots to get airborne with the seat safe as the Gnat experience showed. Should the seat companies not be looking at some mechanical interlock systemwhich will not allow the throttle to be advanced beyond a taxy speed until the seat is made live.

A previous poster mentioned that pilots should simply follow the check list. Well a great many professional and diligent pilots have made seat pin errors ...... it is a brave man who says he would never make such a cognitive error!!!

[ 01 March 2002: Message edited by: Dogstar ]</p>

[4Greens]

I was about to eject and on checking found I had forgotten to do up the gismos that stop one's legs flailing. Having sorted this problem out I found that the major problem had gone away - I didn't have to eject after all. It is not just pins that are/were the problem

[Ex Douglas Driver]

Dogstar is right about the Escapac headknocker only protruding about 5 inches. To stop the "holes in the cheese" lining up, many checks were in place to stop that handle being left down and the seat safe. The dispatcher would visually check it was up and the aircrew would move their head to the rear to feel for the obstruction. I personally think its a great system as it stops the problem of dropped pins and the subsequent safety hazard.. .. .As well as the many checklist actions for pin removal, most modern aircraft have a Seat pin warning light (on when pin in), and an interconnect that flashes the light when the throttle is above a certain position (approx &gt;90%).. .. .As far as I'm aware Martin Baker still send out a tie pin if you eject using one of their seats. . .I, unfortunately, did not get anything (other than a sore back) from Escapac when I had the misfortune of using their products! I believe Escapac was swallowed up by one of the large American aerospace companies

[Perky Penguin]

My recollection, from flying Gnats in the early 60s, is the seat was made by SAAB. It was very lightweight and simple but had a very good success rate. There was a problem of breaking your thighs if you ejected while adjusting the height, ie if the seat was not locked but I don't reacall that there were that many back injuries. Beagle can probably expand on this ie correct me nicely!

[Captain Kirk]

EF has microswitches at the bottom of both pin stowages (there are only 2) and the lack of contact will be alerted to the pilot on the DWP (Dedicated Warning Panel) as well as by Voice Output if he attempts to take-off with the pins stowed. Simple - but effective.