Retire expat pilots, regulator warns; meeting tomorrow

[flyjet787]

Retire expat pilots, regulator warns; meeting tomorrow - Economy and Politics - livemint.com (http://www.livemint.com/2009/11/11221400/Retire-expat-pilots-regulator.html)
Retire expat pilots, regulator warns; meeting tomorrow
Around 500 expats working in the country at present; move may help 3,000 out-of-work local pilots
Tarun Shukla
New Delhi: In a move that could help some of the estimated 3,000 unemployed Indian pilots to find jobs, the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) has sternly warned Indian carriers to retire expats flying their aircraft by June or face the risk of their operations being curtailed.

An aviation boom led to the launch of several new carriers in the middle of the decade amid a shortage of local pilots, forcing the newcomers to recruit foreigners to fly their planes.

The same boom also encouraged several young Indian students to train for a pilot’s career before the slump in aviation last year led airlines to reduce capacity and sack staff, grounding several fliers.

To convey the seriousness of its warning, DGCA has called a meeting of all the airline chief executive officers on Friday in the capital.

“The government is trying to help the unemployed pilots and implement the phase out (of expats) plan,” said a senior official at a Mumbai-based carrier, who didn’t want to be named.

Beyond June, airlines would need to justify having expat pilots on board. The regulator would grant approvals to keep expat pilots only on a case-to-case basis.
There are around 500 expat pilots employed at Indian carriers, said a DGCA official, who too asked not to be named. “We will be reviewing the progress of the airlines” in implementing the directive, this official added.

With about eight months left to meet the deadline, airlines will have to make sure they have enough Indian pilots who are qualified to move to the commander’s seat from being a co-pilot.

The airline official cited above said one full-service carrier, not his, has about 50 Indian co-pilots who are fit for command but who aren’t being promoted. “This will force carriers to do that,” the official said.

When an Indian pilot is upgraded to the commander’s seat, it will allow an unemployed pilot on the ground to take over the co-pilot’s vacant position, he added.

The DGCA needs to first freeze the issue of fresh expat licences, said Mohan Ranganathan, an air safety expert and a former pilot.
“On one hand, when the deadline is 1 July 2010, the fact that they are issuing permissions for expat pilots, while there are many Indian co-pilots who can be upgraded, beats logic”, he said.

:ok::)

[ATPMBA]

USA should then send the 10,000's of Indians working in the USA on H1B visas back home too.

And we are talking 50,000 or more.

[Ben178v]

I am all in favour of this kind of thing but being from the Uk we are branded racist if we mention it. They were talking about this on the African/Nigerian forum a while back. Surely if its good enough for one country its good enough for all. If we reset the status que and everybody returned to their own countries I wonder which ones would lose out.

[411A]

....I wonder which ones would lose out.

The hundreds of dead passengers when local pilots are put 'in charge' far too soon.
When smokin' holes are examined and found to contain local pilots at the bottom, experienced expats will be invited, once again.

Have seen it happen all too often to consider otherwise.

[TopTup]

Not long ago in the UK foreign doctors (a lot of Indians) were having their visa refused or not renewed. The Bristish government had an oversupply of British doctors graduating from university and no jobs to go to. In India there was a cry of RACISM. There were marches in the streets, reports throughout the Indian papers... "We Indians brinig a level of professionalism to the British Medical System that they do not have! They need us. We have experience, these graduating college students do not" was the common theme!

When I worked in India I was referred to as "you damn foreigner" & given the rosters that the arrogant Indian cmdrs refused. Many, many, many attempts were made for me to pass pilots in sim checks and line checks even though they could not land the airplane, had zero CRM or upheld basic SOPs. (So I resigned).

175-200 hr CPL pilot in the RHS of a 777 or 747 where they cannot land the aircraft, legally or otherwise.

On the flight deck for hours on end with a senior AI cmdr who would not talk to me due my race, skin color and heritage.

The multiple woes at AI blamed on the foreigners where the root cause is rampant corruption, raw incompetance, unaccountability and pure arrogance.

RACISM is screamed from the highest mounutains of India yet people are murdered for their caste. Imagine if an Indian married a "damn foreigner" or another person from a different caste?! Her own brother(s) or father would poor acid on her face for the shame bought to the family.

Now get rid of the foreigners who bring a level of professionalism and expertise to a pitiful and decaying airline. All to be seen to "save face" and hire school children struggling to decifer the inbound radial let alone unable to fly straight and level on a downwind circuit with AP, AT and FD's off. Same with far too many cmdrs.

Replace the foreign TREs/TRIs with national pilots given the role not for the skill in teaching or ability but due seniority alone. Even if they can't land a raw data ILS with AP, AT and FD's off in 25 kt crosswind, give them their TRE/TRI staus anyway.

You want rampant racism? Go to India.

Yep, as ATPMBA stated, kick out the many 1000's of Indians taking jobs in America. Kick out the Indian taxi drivers in Australia & NZ, kick out the Indian doctors in the UK.... Give jobs to the local nationals instead!! What's good for one is good for the other. But, the Indians will start marching again and throwing about that dispicable term RACISM. Cheap.

These moves in Indian aviation will culminate in a crater in the ground. Mark my words. An arrogant autocratic and abusive Cmdr with a 175 hr subservant FO in bad weather and perhaps an onbaord failure or poor weather?

Everyone knows what is going on but no one will do anything. I hope and pray that my predictions do not come true. If it does, I'll bet you'll find a way to blame the foreigners for it.

[flyjet787]

Well I think the reason why american companies employ a high number of Indians is beacuse they cannot find the same skill level among the locals and also not to mention its is cheaper to employ an Indian and he/she works for more hours for less money. Where as in the Indian aviation sector it is the other way.

Moreover the DGCA is not asking the airlines to get rid of all foreigh pilots overnight and replace them with less experienced or under qualified pilots. What they are saying is despite havin experienced FO's who are qualified to move to the left seat they are still being made to fly as FO's. I am not saying that every experinced FO's would qualify or have the skill level to become a captain, some don't but most do.

Some of the private airlines still continue to hire or still have foreign FO's. I think its ok in case if they are flying the big jets like the 777's etc. but to have foreing FO's on 320's, 737's and ATR's is not really required since there are a lot of Indian pilots sitting on the ground with type ratings.

[flyjet787]

:ok:These moves in Indian aviation will culminate in a crater in the ground. Mark my words. An arrogant autocratic and abusive Cmdr with a 175 hr subservant FO in bad weather and perhaps an onbaord failure or poor weather?
Thanks for your concern. But I guess we are fine. We hav'nt had american or british pilots flying our aircrafts forever. We lasted for decades without your services. And I don't know when you last flew in India but things are changing. What you would refer to as "arrogant autocratic and abusive Cmdrs" (mostly AI and IC cmdrs) are all set to retire in the next couple of years and the new cmdrs/capts are far better than them.

175-200 hr CPL pilot in the RHS of a 777 or 747 where they cannot land the aircraft, legally or otherwise.
Its not done just in India it happens in airlines all over the world. Singapore airlines, Etihad and BA are some I can recall. They hire their cadets with zero hours send them to a flight school and then they get a type rating on a wide body and start flying as FO's. I don't see what you are complaning about.

And most of the things you have mentioned in your post happen all over the world. I can't imagine what a perfect world you are living in. You will have sloppy, arrogant, good for nothing cmdrs in most airlines around the world.
And change takes time. Its not going to happen overnight. :ok:
And btw what you have faced in India we Indians face the same when we come to your country because of the cultural differences. I am not saying that it is a good thing but then thats how it is.

[Capt Apache]

@Top Tup

.

Lemme tell you expats only came here because of the sudden boom in aviation and our inability to train pilots in time for it.As capacity is reduced and people are redundant expats will go back.Any expat who thought this was gonna last forever has himself to blame.

And what do you suggest the 4000 unemployed newbies do.If we go by you they should never ever get a job cause there is nowhere they can get the experience YOU THINK they need.

[TopTup]

OK...Here we go again. One at a time....

Apache:
Where did the "illusion of grandeur" come from? What comment did I make of myself other than I could not tolerate the practices at AI so left? Yes, you may have 33 Crore Gods, try praying to them the next time a girl has acid thrown on her face or a man is killed, or a child is thrown on a fire all due to their CASTE. All facts as reported in your newspapers. Please also read my post again before makinig such dispicable claims that I want to see lives lost. You sick, sick inidividual. I PRAY it doesn't happen but my tertiary qualifications in CRM and previous experience can see those Swiss cheese slices lining up. So could you if you could remove your head from the sand. I suggest the 4000 CPL holders go and look for a job flying ANYTHING! I met enough parents and actual CPL holders themselves who deem a C210 let alone an ATR "below" them. Props?! They DEMAND a B777 straight away, and it happened. Do your research before you try to rebut anything I've written.

FLYJET787:
No, you are not fine. You should ALWAYS seek and hire the best you can find to provide the optimum safety you can achieve. Be that from in house training or hiring from outside. No, those arrogant, autocratic Cmdrs are still there in their droves. They believe since I was treated such a way it is my right to do the same. Please DO NOT tell me that an FO feels comfortable to correct his/her Cmdr without fear of being abused. It happened when i was there and I know it still goes on from sources still working there. Yes SIN, CX, BA, EY, QF, etc, etc all have cadetships. BUT! They offer stringent, precise and demanding training. Those who do not make the grade are cut, and rightly so. I was personally pressured to pass so many pilots that COULD not have passed that I left. Colleagues tell me of FOs unable to fly a raw data ILS, let along follow the idiot bars (FD's). I witnessed first hand an FO unable to maintain +/- 400 ft on downwind doing ccts in AHM. The result of her assesment by the HEAD OF 777 TRAINING?? - "SATISFACTORY". When I quizzed him he told me "We cannot afford to have FO's on the ground and give extra training. We need them online." I received an email from a VERY senior AI (Indian) TRE a few months ago whom I stay in regular contact with. He was offered a bribe to pass a Cmdr whom he had to fail. The result? The TRE was called into the office to explain himself! The failed Cmdr was given a DXB shuttle and of course, "SATISFACTRY". The TRE was given a wrap over the knuckles!!! So, those are FACTS!
No, all these things DO NOT happen all over the world as rampnat as they do at AI. An FO at DECENT airlines is taught to speak up and the Capt has the humility and CRM skills to listen to the FO. NOT SO AT AI! Saying "it is what it is" makes me question: Are you part of the problem or part of the cure?

Gents, don't worry. With AI trying to cut expat salaries by 20% they'll all walk if it happens and you'll retain your God-like status as Kings of the Sky, answerable to no-one but your own self serving arrogance and head in the sand mentality.

Why were there moves by the FAA and ICAO to relegate AI to ICAO Cat 2? I suppose "it is what it is" and you can cry foul? No, AI earnt it and EVERY pilot there, expat or other who permits the dispicable conditions to remain is part of the cause.

Yep, get rid of the expats and replace expertise and experience with children. SMART! Real SMART!

Not going to reply to any other posts denying the facts as written. Just can't be bothered!!! A waste of my time. Do your own research before refuting ANY of them.

[Capt Apache]

I have read your posts before and for the past 1 year you have been complaining from a thousand miles away how AI treated you badly and how grandeur your intentions were.When I think of you I remember this story from Panchtantra.

There was a King who kept glorifying his cat.It acted in all the noble ways.His minister who was quite turned off let rats out of a bag one day when the cat was parading its nobility.The cat forgot its royal allegiance and went wildly after the rats.

Moral of the story
As long as we are in our comfort zone we do well but real men manage well in all habitat..Years back when I was disillusioned and frustrated a wise man told me "This is the way the system works.If you are upto it find a way around the system".You coudnt find a way around the system..And now you complain about a system you changed nothing about.

[Capt Apache]

Yes, you may have 33 Crore Gods, try praying to them the next time a girl has acid thrown on her face or a man is killed, or a child is thrown on a fire all due to their CASTE.


Your friends in the West have formed the habit of making skewed misrepresentations about India time and again.They make it sound like this is all India is about.Its either Poor oppressed people being thrown acid at or the pathetic sanitary conditions of which they delight in taking photographs.
There is another India that is progressive and inclusive that they'd rather not look at.There is another India with a vibrant industry and a resurgent economy that completely evades their consciousness.Either they are blind and ignorant or they just hate to see us progress as that would deny them the oppurtinity to laugh at some1.

[rdr]

Apache, Toptup has made some valid points here. It is your chance to rebutt him. You have made some good posts in the recent past, but your last two have attacked the man instead of his points.
Thats a trick politicians use, and i believe that you can do better.

[Capt Apache]

Next time you smoke or allow others to smoke on the flightdeck, keep the flightdeck door unlocked, abuse an FO or say nothing as FO to your Cmdr, touch the MCP when you are not PF, make a radio call when you are the PF... I hope you can sit back and happilly believe that all the world is stupid but YOU.




Well said Top Tup.

I regret parts of my earlier post that were personal and sincerely apologize for it.

[Wannabe Flyer]

I want the best person to fly my aircraft regardless of color, nationality or religion. If there is a price to pay so be it, lets not try and put a price to human life.

There are millions of student going abroad to study and it must be for a reason. Therefore foreigners working in India should be taken as a learning experience. Fight against the corruption that allows less skilled ones to come in by all means, but don't brand all as expats as bad and in the same time expats don't brand all Indian pilots as spoilt bratty or incompetent.

I am sure there are good and bad apples in every system and every industry in the world. If everyone was an Einstein or a superman it would be a boring place to live in.........:sad:

[jetzup]

sure.....let's zero in on the Indian aviation scene, and only pick up the incidents that happened when local pilots were operating, let's ignore about the expats that landed various Indian aircrafts on the wrong runways and caused various incidents.

what?? Oh ....Colgan air, Delta et al as per the rumour thread... fatal accidents, and dangerous incidents? The flights were also operated by locals not expats :E

Having said that, I still think that airlines should consider the pilots best qualified for the job and should not terminate the contracts of some of the expats if they are better qualfied than the Indians.

[Dragon 83]

I couldn't agree more, hire the best for the job particularly with expansion and opening new international routes there should be no compromise----hire the experience!

[jimmygill]

On the flight deck for hours on end with a senior AI cmdr who would not talk to me due my race, skin color and heritage.


If you don't mind, exactly how did you reach the determination that the AI commander is not talking to you because of your race-skin-heritage? Is there even a remote possibility of there being other reasons?
I am not mentioning that none of Indians show racism, they show both xenophilia and xenophobia.



The multiple woes at AI blamed on the foreigners where the root cause is rampant corruption, raw incompetance, unaccountability and pure arrogance.

RACISM is screamed from the highest mounutains of India yet people are murdered for their caste. Imagine if an Indian married a "damn foreigner" or another person from a different caste?! Her own brother(s) or father would poor(sic) acid on her face for the shame bought to the family.


This time, you forgot to tell about the rope trick, snake charmer and the elephants. Adding these could have made your description of Indian culture quiet comprehensive.



Now get rid of the foreigners who bring a level of professionalism and expertise to a pitiful and decaying airline. All to be seen to "save face" and hire school children struggling to decifer the inbound radial let alone unable to fly straight and level on a downwind circuit with AP, AT and FD's off. Same with far too many cmdrs.


You are talking as if professionalism some sort of head-lice. Bring in more expats and the locals will contract enough of professionalism from them. Naresh Goyal should be warned not to hire bald expats.



You want rampant racism? Go to India.


I agree here, we just call it with different names. casteism, communalism, regionalism... gosh there are so many of them.


Yep, as ATPMBA stated, kick out the many 1000's of Indians taking jobs in America. Kick out the Indian taxi drivers in Australia & NZ, kick out the Indian doctors in the UK.... Give jobs to the local nationals instead!! What's good for one is good for the other. But, the Indians will start marching again and throwing about that dispicable term RACISM. Cheap.



Of course its racism. There is no other word.


These moves in Indian aviation will culminate in a crater in the ground. Mark my words. An arrogant autocratic and abusive Cmdr with a 175 hr subservant FO in bad weather and perhaps an onbaord failure or poor weather?

Everyone knows what is going on but no one will do anything. I hope and pray that my predictions do not come true. If it does, I'll bet you'll find a way to blame the foreigners for it

And how exactly did you help, while you had an opportunity? Praying is easy. Resigning, easier still.

If you really have a point to put across try to be a bit less acerbic. The way you harp on to 175-200 seems like you have lost it. I bet you have never flown with any FO with just 175 hrs in India. At the same time I am sure you must have evaluated sufficient number of FO and captain who don't meet the bill.

The first cut reaction after reading that vitriol from otherwise sensible person is somewhat like "Do you need any assistance, Sir?"

Try, just try to be a little nicer.

[jimmygill]

I want the best person to fly my aircraft regardless of color, nationality or religion. If there is a price to pay so be it, lets not try and put a price to human life.


I cannot disagree with you here. But more pertinent question is, does the current system end up paying high price, and at the same time keeping quiet incompetent air crew in flying job? The sad answer to above question is a yes.

Can it be changed? Yes, but not through expats. Expats are not a solution to systemic problem, they are a solution to running the airline for short term. The kind of change we are looking for has to be brought in by a strong and honest leadership, may it be the CEO, Chairman, Fleet Commander, DGCA or Minister.

Flying is an easy skill, its not like we are trying to develop skills for thermonuclear fusion and we will need experts in the field. Fortunately a lot of literature is available in public domain. Expats are not 'experts', they are pilots with more hours... which we need for a time being.. safety culture, SOP, promotions policy, are something which can be handled without expat pilots or management. Expats or others who think expats are crucial in getting a good safety culture are akin to the belief "the sun rises because mankind has to wake up and go to work". Misplaced causality.

It is a challenging thing to work in cross cultural environments. I am sure there are expats who have taken up the challenge and quietly performing and improving things.



There are millions of student going abroad to study and it must be for a reason. Therefore foreigners working in India should be taken as a learning experience. Fight against the corruption that allows less skilled ones to come in by all means, but don't brand all as expats as bad and in the same time expats don't brand all Indian pilots as spoilt bratty or incompetent.



True and completely agreeable.

[kotakota]

Having sat on the ground at Mumbai for nearly 3 hours trying to get start-up last week after the ATR 72 mishap / runway closure / bad wx event , and listening to the local aircrew ranting non-stop at the poor ground controller who was manfully trying to get them out of there , I was wondering if the bad attitude ( which they would not dare do in Dubai / Europe etc ) was caused by poor professionalism or the apparent disdain Indians show for anyone of a perceived 'lower' status ? It was quite disturbing to listen to .
I did enjoy the ME controller last week who ignored an AI pilot saying ' AIXXX , Descent' 3 times until he used the word 'Request Descent ' whereupon the controller piped up ' Thats better , cleared descend.........' !!
On another note , if , as has been reported , the government ie DGCAM/DCA is ordering the removal of expats by June , why are they allowing Air India Express to recruit more expats as witnessed in the foreign press recently ? Will they be offering 3 month contracts ( the other 3 months of the next 6 months will be used to issue the licences etc )

Fly Safe

KK

[Nevrekar]

At Spicejet, expat contracts that are coming up for renewal are being extended only until the DGCA deadline as the airline does not know how the DGCA will rule. In anycase, even if the airline were to renew a contract for 1-3 years, it really won't really mean much because ultimately the DGCA ruling will be controlling. Having a contract in hand will not mean much.

Spicejet has upgraded quite a few Indian candidates (some who jumped ship from other airlines) and right now Captain staffing seems quite adequate.
I think JetAirways, AirIndia and Indigo have quite a few expat Capts. Spicejet probably has around 50-60 if I am not mistaken. Usually on any given day, one-third or more are on their leave rotation (which is unpaid). In my opinion, in 12-18 months, the need for expats will be significantly reduced to probably 60% or less. I believe currently there are around 500 expats in India.

[australiancalou]

Don't be so rude.
I can understand indian governement willing to solve a local employment problem. Would'nt you like your local politicians to do the same for you.
As expat pilots you helped Indian aviation to grow when it really needed drivers. Nowaday they don't need you anymore, same in some US or other majors isn't it? There's no way to avoid these kind of behavior. Imagine a ban on Indian aviation when the need for foreigners arise again. Do you really think people would not apply if salaries are attractive enough?
That's the way it is, no one to blame, money is more important than human being's life, keep that in a brain's corner.
Dday mates:ok:

[Wannabe Flyer]

does the current system end up paying high price, and at the same time keeping quiet incompetent air crew in flying job? The sad answer to above question is a yes.

I am not sure the current system (read market) is paying the correct price for flying in India. India is a country where expenses are almost if not higher in some cases than Europe/US/Australia. The low cost airfares being offered most times are so stupid (read cheap cheap cheap), topped with the fickle customers as well as any govt on a popularity campaign asking for lower prices results in a non sustainable revenue of no quality at all to pay Local, expat or anyone from Mars. For crying out loud it is cheaper to fly round trip almost anywhere in India than it was 20 years ago!!! Pray do tell me what has become cheaper in the last 20 years in aviation???

Trick is to be patient, raise the fares to those numbers that make sense, loose customers initially and be prepared for a month or so before they forget and return. I for one as an SLF rarely remember what I paid a month ago for a ticket and don't really let Rs 500 here or there make me waste my time flying. Maybe we will see some better quality travelers and less damage to the inside of aircraft. To me Quality over quantity any day.

[TopTup]

Jimmygill....a well written reply.

The incident I referred to happened when I corrected a senior AI Capt on an (AI) SOP and he turned and told me that "you damn foreigners come here thinking you can do what you like! You try to bring your United/American/BA, [etc, etc] procedures with you! You are not welcome here. AI is for Indians not you foreigners." No, I wasn't introducing "my" SOPs I was enforcing AI's SOPs and those endorsed by the DGCA and therefore ICAO. So, a pleasurable 9 hrs was had by all!

I cannot deny that perhaps the scars run a bit too deep and that I should just get over it. I do get on a high horse occasionally when I see the unparallelled ignorance, arrogance and low, low, low standards deemed acceptable. Should I too place my head in the sand?

Jimmy, you mentioned professionalism is like a disease: good analogy. I believe it can be infectuous, it should be infectuous and able to spread. Unfortunately laziness, corruption and medicroty has a higher, faster more consuming transfer rate. It is more easilly spread.

So, to LOWER the safety standards of an already dismal situation for political brownie points by puting in place pilots without the training needed is just plain dumb. Well, it's really criminally negligent one may say?

Can a pilot with 200-500 hrs operate a commuter jet to a good standard? YES. It takes dedicated training in a non-compromising environment. Can anyone be honest and say that is what occurs at AI?

Make the changes, raise the bar, get these pilots to the level they need to be at then employ your own nationals. I wish the Indian pilots only the best with their careers but not at the jeopardy of safety.

I resigned because I refused to be part of that system. It was by no means "easy" but the only option for me. Walking away from an environment you are within that is illegal (against DGCA and ICAO rules), wrong and dangerous does not constitute selling out I would think. What would you do if you were ORDERED to pass a Capt who could not land the aircraft in 15 kt xwind, raw data ILS, but crashed it twice despite all methods of training I could muster? And it was by no means the only such occurance in similar circumstances; be they FO's or Capts. These hands didn't want that blood on them. Maybe I was just not a good enough instructor and the wrong person for the job. Trust me, I'm not so arrogant as not to have thought and/or believed that.

Again, Jimmygill, a welcomed retort and always willing to swap a comment when it is constructive. Cheers.... :ok:

[airflirt]

it is really weird that somebody has so much hatred for india and indians. so why did he go there in the first place?
well conditions in other countries is no better. try finding a job in USA or europe with your local pilot's licence? the fact is that all countries have safeguards for locals.
US needs indian techies and doctors and nurses and drivers and engineers... the list is endless as americans are not upto the mark. those who are, charge too much by way of salary and perks. thats the difference. so when expats go to india, they are not exactly working on indian terms, they get paid far higher than indians themselves. hence they at best are of limited utility for short term needs.
racism is a part of life in all countries, look what is happening in australia, uk is stamping out indian doctors, us is considering "buffalo for bangalore".
so worry not for india. it will manage itself. like it always has.

[jimmygill]

I am not sure the current system (read market) is paying the correct price for flying in India. India is a country where expenses are almost if not higher in some cases than Europe/US/Australia. The low cost airfares being offered most times are so stupid (read cheap cheap cheap), topped with the fickle customers as well as any govt on a popularity campaign asking for lower prices results in a non sustainable revenue of no quality at all to pay Local, expat or anyone from Mars. For crying out loud it is cheaper to fly round trip almost anywhere in India than it was 20 years ago!!! Pray do tell me what has become cheaper in the last 20 years in aviation???


I think you mistook me there, when I was talking about price, I was referring to what an incompetent Indian/Expat/Alien Commander gets in salary. This price in fact has only something fractional to do with with what traveler pays.



Maybe we will see some better quality travelers and less damage to the inside of aircraft. To me Quality over quantity any day.

I think thats elitist, ... deja-vue. Nevermind, its just my thought, but statement doesn't sound quiet politically correct. Once upon a time in a prestigious educational institution in India I was blasted by one and all just for pointing out that students belonging to a particular category consistently fail to do better than an other category. While I was just reading what I had observed from an authorized statistics provided by the institution itself. Now you may have all the right to believe what you may be seeing, but just for political correctness somethings have to be pushed under the carpet.

[dgtl887]

Let them get on with it................ just hope that civilised countries ensure that appropriate ramp checks are carried out and the carriers appropriately banned from foreign airspace if they do not meet with ICAO standards. Civilised countries ? I'd advise you to watch your tongue when posting in this forum. Take your racist nonsense elsewhere.

@other expats who have a problem with India/Indian culture

Don't like it ? Leave it.

Oh, here's something interesting:
British PM vows to curb entry of doctors, professionals - UK - World - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/uk/British-PM-vows-to-curb-entry-of-doctors-professionals/articleshow/5222454.cms)
"I know people worry about whether immigration undermines their wages and the job prospects of their children and they also worry about whether they will get a decent home for their families," he {Gordon Brown} underlined.

[TopTup]

airflirt.... Please indicate which part of my post showed any form of hatred against India or Indians? What a dispicable comment to make.

I had my name down with a few agencies. They approached me with a contract at AI as a TRI/TRE. I did not approach them (AI in particular). I accepted. One of the worst mistakes of my professional career. My opinion. Please don't comment on my experiences as you have NO idea.

You want to safeguard local jobs at the sacrifice of safety THAT is my point. If there was no sacacrifice of safety then by all means employ the national pilots. Just read my post again. (I'm typing this one especially slow so you can keep up).

Yes, look at what is happening in Australia and other countries. Now, where did you get your information? Did you get it from the local press? I can GUARANTEE you that the story is played out differently in Oz as are the the reports on CNN and BBC. But to search for FACTS and an unbiassed point of view may get in the way of your omniscient (look it up) stand.

The difference is in countries like the US, UK, Australia (those you mentioned) if and when racism raises its dispicable head it is despised by the media and hated by the general public. It is dealt with as quickly as possible. Can you say the same? Same goes for your "standards" of airline training and safety procedures.

So, AGAIN (!) expat contract pilots have a limited term wherever they go. They are there to fill a vacuum. To replace experienced tried and proven competant pilots with inexperienced, untrained and incompetance is WRONG. I do not blame the cadet or 175-200 hr CPL for the standards they are taught to be satisfactory but the system they are fed into and spat out from, then exist within knowing no better or then wanting to know any better.

You've really hit the ground running with your first post! Keep up the mediocrity!!

[Wannabe Flyer]

I think thats elitist, ... deja-vue. Nevermind, its just my thought, but statement doesn't sound quiet politically correct.

Jimmy

Politically correct and what is realistically correct/factual are often divergent views.

Sorry to sound elitist, however there is a time and place for everything, and sometimes rushing it ahead of it's time can have adverse ramifications. Just my opinion.

As for you pointing out at a prestigious educational institute what was theoretical and authorized stats......well bad luck for those illiterates who did not want sit down and analyze why this statistic is so? Instead they got all defensive and politically correct and brushed it under the carpet. Similar attitude seems to be rampant from what is observed on this forum. Sweeping the fact that the bulk of Indians are new to aviation(read skewed ratio) and we need good quality teachers (please read earlier post about corruption in selecting this quality) and these cost money and learning takes time. No fast forward button here....Sometime it is better to sit and listen and learn rather than talk over the other person consistently.

[av8r76]

The expats in my airline are quite worried about their future in India and for good reason. However, I repeatedly reassure them that their services will be needed atleast for another 18-24 months before we have the numbers to justify their exit.

A lot of their insecurities are fed by the media and the inane bulls decreed by the DGCA. The ground reality is that most airlines don't have the experienced crews or the training resources to facilitate the compliance of the July '10 deadline.

A blurb in the media said that there are plenty of 1500 hr co-p's to fill the slots occupied by expats to make room for the unemployed anointed ones. That just gives you an example of the severe disconnect the journos have as far as aviation is concerned (amongst many other things).

[Sky Dancer]

That's a well written post TopTup.What you say is very much true.Nowadays the world is suffering from reverse racism and nothing much is being done about it.In India the governement , press and general public are pretty ill informed and don't seem to understand the dynamics of aviation.Many years ago , the expat pilot was well regarded in India but today the scene is pretty different mainly because the planes of today are pretty easy to fly and everyone feels that they are upto it....but this opinion will change shortly.We are seeing many incidents and accidents happen and if experience is not given any preference we would see a pretty catastrophic disaster happen..although I hope it does not.:ok:

[King on a Wing]

@ TopTup
Absolutely excellent post(s) my friend.....!! Very well written and extremely honest. As close to the truth that I would dare to do.......Kudos.. :ok:
Been in your spot myself,and had to do exactly what you claimed--myself!
If experience had no worth,every trainee I cleared as captain would flash me his ATP on his very first solo leg and ask me to jump off the flight deck,just because he too now had his four! But that doesn't happen does it? I know boys who are 26 yrs old and flying a medium jet in command with their four bars,and others who are 62 and also flying the same jet with their four bars too. See a difference...?
Over n Out ..

[airflirt]

dear kind mr. toptup,
i have really read your posts hard after your retort of typing ever so slowly.all that i could make out is a sense of utter lack of sensitivity when you refer to indian gods and what not.
(i am also typing slowly enough)
the proof of the pudding is in eating it. kindly go back in history and look what US airways did in 1960s and early seventies. well it seems by raising the bogey of safety you seem to be unwilling to give the indian youngsters a chance. by the way, when do you think a guy is ready for command? you are actually casting aspertions on the indian check pilots and examiners who have been doing a great job in trying circumstances. living in india is tough and i mean it. but that doesn't mean amybody has a right to denounce a culture. i may be wrong but like many others i noticed a sense of deep rooted cynicism and racist tendency in your post. mediocrity is not so bad if it is safe. as for running, i am ready for a marathon.
god bless.

[hoover1]

how can mediocrity be safe? thats like saying "I can't do anything well but trust me I am still safe". People are not racists for pointing out facts they are racist for judging someone based on the color of their skin. I don't see any of this in tottup's posts. Please stop using the race card whenever you don't have an answer.

[TopTup]

Hoover, King on a Wing and Sky Dancer: thanks for the support. If we don't openly discuss such issues they are too easilly hidden by those who do not or will not.

Airflirt, I've got nothing for you. You praise medicroty as an acceptable "standard". You embarress yourself in your posts. You can offer no aviation facts to support an arguemnt and thus return to your dispicable ways of claiming racism. I did not bring up the topic of the Hindu Gods, a compatriot of yours did. I mearly said that the Hiindu Gods should be prayed to for the right reasons (SAFETY) and not for any other reason. You are pathetic and I pity you. If you think I am getting personal then you are right. You claim racism whenever your agenda is not accepted by the wider community. Dispicable. Grow up or pi$$ off.

Do I cast a doubt on the AI TRE/TRI's? YES! A great job under trying circumstances? WHAT? Passing pilots who should and MUST be failed due inability and poor standards is NOT to be commended, except in your deluded world.

At AI the expats which (from memory) include Americans, English, Mexicans, Brazillians, Spanish, Italians, Russians, Australians, New Zealand, Singaporeans, etc from all walks of aviation ([active] military, intl airlines, domestic airlines, GA, gliders, sea planes, crop dusting, etc, etc, etc) from all backgrounds are ALL WRONG but the nationals at AI.

ALL the people aren't ALWAYS wrong ALL the time.

[jumpdrive]

all i can say is

GET A JOB

before the %$@# really hits the FAN

& you'll find yourself without any income

my advise

[av8r76]

TopTup,
You seem to be hitting some nerves, right and wrong.

All I can say is that you are eloquently and constructively peeling off the facade which is India which is getting a lot of people hot and bothered. Most guys here refuse to take off those rose tinted glasses and live in a delusional world where everything is just the way it is supposed to be. But looking at it from an Indian civil aviators (or a national in a broader term) POV they don't know any better and you exposing their ignorance is inviting these personal attacks on you. One thing that a lot of locals sorely lack is the emotional maturity to take criticism and learn from it, hence the uphill task you encountered when you elected to take up a job here.

Keep up the good work.

[TopTup]

av8r76,

I think you've hit the nail on the head - good point. :ok:

Still I think that by openly discussing these issues occasionally a light may come on somewhere, me included. Quite often points of view are gained due ignorance of the truth. What at first frustrated the hell out of me in, say India, I later often found out "why" things were as they were and it all made perfect sense afterward. BUT to knowingly CHOOSE to look away when all evidence is so blatantly obvious is absolutley insane - my point of viw. Then to discard healthy discussions as being racist is dispicable.

So, cheers for your comments.

Back to the thread: train the nation pilots to the standard suitable. No shortcuts, no trade-offs, no corruption, no bribery, no compromises. (And that DOES NOT only refer to India). See the expat contracts out as per the legalities they are due, then induct the well trained, disciplined and suitable national pilots.

Good luck to those Indian CPL holders. Just not at the expense of safety. Respect the expats' contracts as you would like a contract made with you respected.

[Nevrekar]

Airlines may get reprieve in expat pilot phase-out

Mihir Mishra / New Delhi November 19, 2009, 0:25 IST



Regulator may extend deadline after industry says it lacks Indian commanders

The year-old controversy over hiring expatriate pilots is likely to intensify, with the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) considering an extension of the deadline for their phase-out.

The airline industry regulator is considering the move in response to requests by airlines that say they lack Indian commanders and senior pilots to replace all the 600 expatriate pilots on their rosters. The phase-out deadline is July 1, 2010.
Commanders require about 2,800 hours of flying time as a co-pilot, a process that takes about four years. Airlines contend that the services of at least 25 per cent of the current complement of expat pilots would be required after the July deadline.

"It is not possible to phase out all the expat pilots by the July deadline and we expect that at least 150 of them will be needed still for some period of time," a DGCA official explains.

“We are monitoring how airlines are reducing the number of expat pilots and a decision on an extension could be taken soon,” he adds.

Although an extension will be a reprieve for the airlines — mainly Air India, Jet and Kingfisher — and the expat pilots that face a global slump in demand for their services, local associations have protested strongly.

"This would be a wrong move. We already have a lot of qualified pilots in the country who need to be accommodated in senior positions," says Ravindra Kumar, president of the Indian Commercial Pilots Association, which represents the erstwhile Indian Airlines pilots (Indian Airlines was merged with Air India).

A senior committee member of the executive pilots association of Air India adds, "Co-pilots are not being trained to become commanders so that a shortage is being created. Otherwise we don't need expats even now, forget about July."

Indian pilots are also aggrieved because expats earn salaries that are at least 15 per cent higher, even when the carriers cut salaries and emoluments of local pilots owing to the slowdown.

DGCA's order of June 2008 was taken primarily to create opportunities for Indian pilots, especially at a time when around 3,000 pilots were looking for jobs and the slowdown had forced airlines to retrench hundreds of pilots .

This will not be the first time DGCA has had to postpone a phase-out deadline for expat pilots. The regulator extended the deadline in 2008 for hiring only Indians as co-pilots by two years after the airlines said fresh pilots could not start flying immediately and they would need training, which could take a few months.

State-owned Air India has 153 expat pilots and has said it will promote 50 co-pilots with sufficient hours as commanders, which leaves a deficit of over 100 pilots.

Jet Airways and Kingfisher have around 200 expats each and they are also trying various ways to phase out the expats. SpiceJet and IndiGo, the two low-cost carriers, have very few expats and say they are working to meet the DGCA directive.

[weido_salt]

TopTop

Good posts by you indeed.

As far as Government sanctioned nationalistic pride taking precedence over safety is concerned, we need not look any further than the new Master race of Europe, the French. They are quite happy to carry on speaking French, rather than the ICAO agreed aviation language, which is English. Closely followed by another "first world" country, the Spanish.

They also have something else in common. Their readiness to capitulate at the first sign of trouble.

[SATC7]

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/airlines-may-get-reprieve-in-expat-pilot-phase-out/376925/

[TopTup]

Weido_Salt: You're 100% right. The number of times I've operated iinto CDG only to be confronted by the French language. This greatly reduces situational awareness. The ability to listen to what and how ATC are manoeuvering the aircraft about you is lost and hence your ability to prepare accordingly.

Cultural differences, language differences and airline cultures are meant to be regulated in the form of ICAO / FAA / JAA procedures, rules and regulations. Those in charge choose to ignore such practices - nationalistic pride?

When breaches of minimum standards becomes frequent, when those frequencies become more often and regular, they then become part of the airline culture and therefore become defended as the norm. (Eg smoking in the cockpit).

At least the likes of Capt Sulley (Hudson A320 Skipper) has the fortitude and is offered the stage to speak out. Will it change the practices in the US of cost cutting and poor training? Same in India, same in the above mentioned scenario. If we don't openly discuss such issues then we are part of the problem.

[jumpdrive]

friend of mine got his good bye letter for dec in KFA
other got the letter in few months back already

[ATPMBA]

When the economy turns better expats well be welcomed back.

[Fubaliera]

Indian Airlines with or without expat are a joke. There is not one airline in India that makes a profit, nor has a decent training program or facilities. Indian airlines break every rule in the book, seating people in the bathroom, boarding without the crew on board, one pilot operation just to name a few. Let them run thier mickeymouse make believe airlines , it will be fun too watch

[dgtl887]

Indian Airlines with or without expat are a joke. There is not one airline in India that makes a profit, nor has a decent training program or facilities. Indian airlines break every rule in the book, seating people in the bathroom, boarding without the crew on board, one pilot operation just to name a few. Let them run thier mickeymouse make believe airlines , it will be fun too watch

I hear they don't even have navigational equipment onboard to cut costs. :sad:

[thepotato232]

I hear they don't even have navigational equipment onboard to cut costs. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gifI think I used to fly for those guys.

Except they worked out of Indiana. A lot of people here should be wary of dismissing other carriers as irredeemable wrecks as a matter of national pride. Seems we're all throwing stones at each others' glass houses.

[kapalmuks]

in retaliation for this practice, US congress & all foreign gov't of developed countries must ban all Indians working in their aviation industry. this Indian practice is called protectionism & frowned upon by Obama admin. & free & fair trade.

[alouette3]

Kapalmuks,
There are no Indians working on contract in the aviation industry in the US. They might be working on an H1 as computer techs and programmers but to be a pilot you have to be a green card holder and/or a naturalized citizen.Those very few who do make it to the airlines under those circumstances, do not get any preferential treatment (i.e. more pay and perks) and are certainly not living in a tax free world. So before you yell protectionism,get your facts straight.
I am not in favor of getting rid of the expats in India. Despite the thousands of "qualified" local pilots who are, supposedly, waiting in line,I believe it would be a mistake to abruptly send the expats home.But this tit for tat game gets old pretty quick.
Besides, from reading all the posts here on the subject, I am a little confused.The expats hate India and all the corruption and lack of safety etc. and yet don't want to leave??:confused:Seems like schizophrenia to me.Ahh yes, you are all truly selfless individuals who don't want to see "smoking holes" in the ground. That is why you want to stay and put up with crap so that you can "improve" the system. The fat paycheck, of course, is purely incidental.
Alt3.

[TopTup]

Monsieur Allouette trois,

Of course the [expat] pilots are there to earn a living. They are "professionals" where by defiinition they earn an income from their skills. Yes some/most do not like it all in India BUT they signed a contract in good faith and some are in need of that income. That does not mean they have to like the conditions imposed on them by agencies who do not care, corrupt officials where they work, standards well below internationally sanctioned levels, AND contracts that are breached nearly every day of the week. I feel very sorry for those who suffered at the hands of similar wrongs in The States and who MUST keep working. Others have the luxury to walk away and I understand that day is fast approaching.

No one denies that most, if not all are there purely for the pay cheque. That issue was mutually agreed to by both parties signing a contract. But, what THIS THREAD is all about is the desire to remove those with expertise and great experience with those with no experience and very, very, very little expertise (if any). That is the point here.

In many cases there are "selfless individuals" who take the time to discuss "little things" like the importance of V1 or Vmca with their 200 hr FO since they have no idea themsleves. They are not instructors by definition, are not paid to go out of their way as such but wish to impart knowledge and their experience purely for the love of flying AND to help others who were not offered the same level of instruction they ever were. In some small way they DO try to prevent the smoking hole in the ground. In my humble opinion their mere presence prevents this. (Just my opinion).

If you don't like it, leave. Very true. I did.

Also, I could.

[rdr]

Tup, i admire your resilence, and patience in explaining things on this thread.
My opinion is that the main problem is systemic, with the DGCA, Minister, Ministry, a crap of a flag carrier.
The last i heard is that the going DGCA rate for a basic R/T licence is Rs. 45,000-60,000, if you have no connections.
The pilots just dont have a proper system, role model , or example to follow yet. It is evolving slowly due to some talented locals and professional expats, as well as the private carriers. But not fast enough to catch up with the aviation world, or the impending economic boom.
So, when things are difficult, and, there is no solution, its time to blame someone. This is i assure you, a world wide phenomenon.
May i introduce you to Adrian Adrago, last years Booker prize winner and his novel White Tiger. A good read to understand the system.

[GlueBall]

Incredible India; on the ground and in the air! :ooh:

[Hi-Alt]

If the DGCA should mandate anything, it should be at least a minimum of an ATPL for airline ops as is being considered here in the States!

[Fubaliera]

They should do what the middle eastern carriers do. Hire upper management with brains, in other words not only expats pilots, but expats to run the DGCA, expats as controllers, outsource the administration of airports,a complete overhaul of the indian system and maybe in 20years they will be self sufficient. Mechanics, fueleres, imigration officials,airport security should all be run by expats.

[Dagar]

Fubaliera,thanks but no thanks for your advice.

[jetzup]

I am okay with the hiring of qualified expat pilots...even recruiting experienced expat upper management. Indians with brains and management talents are swarming top management in NASA, MOTOROLA, NOMURA, CITBANK...in U.S, Europe, M.E Tokyo, and the Far East anyway. You don't get that many talents from the gulf...small poulation.

But replacing corrupt DGCA and Indian govt. officers with expats?? OMG!! what a fun idea though...Let's also rally to replace the Burmese, Sudanese, Somali govt. officials with expats while we are at it! Didn't someone try to do that indirectly in Iraq or something?

By all means hire expat aviation hit-men as advisers and management for tuning the system. As for the DGCA, it's about transparecy. For starters we need a top guy who's clean and commited to corporate governance. I am positive they are plenty of good Indian people to take on that when, and if, the Indian govt. finally decides to make an attempt to clean up the system.

[gengis]

Indian airlines break every rule in the book, seating people in the bathroom, boarding without the crew on board, one pilot operation just to name a few.


Fubaleria, I think you forgot both (all) pilots outside the flight deck fist fighting with the cabin crew in the galley at FL350.

[Left Wing]

pilots outside the flight deck fist fighting with the cabin crew.... THATS A CLASSIC... :ugh: :=

[Wannabe Flyer]

Hey according to the Cc only one was fighting. the other was "making a move on her" :\

[rdr]

Indian aviation needs a Nilekhani, with a mandate, a few machine guns and a licence to kill.
This sector has practically tried everything to destroy the country, the economy and its people for its selfish corrupted reasons for the past 30 years.
Its time for the country to stand up.

And pls, not another minister, but an apolitical technocrat with brains and a track record.

[propdog]

Most of the expats bashing the Indian government's attempt to get the expats out have no idea what they are talking about. If there are ample supplies of local citizens to do a particular job, they should get the first shot.

For example, take a look at the US (I am a US citizen). To get a flying job here as an expat, you have to be naturalized as a US citizen or atleast hold a work permit. And get this: US does not issue work permits for pilot applicants. The ONLY way to get that for being a pilot of if you are married to a US citizen. The only way you can get a work permit in US for a particular job is if there is a shortage of local citizens to fill that job. The medical and IT industry in the US are good examples of fields where they can't seem to find enough locals to do the job. The only way a company in the US can hire foreign labor is through immigration AFTER they prove to immigration that, there exists a lack of qualified local citizens to fill a particular vacancy. (There are excemptions: For example, US immigration has a program to attract super-high-quality labor. You see US companies conducting campus interviews in elite universities all over the world in certain specialized fields. Indians seem to score pretty good in this category from their famed IIT (kind of an equivalent to the MIT in the US).

People in this forum demanding to send 'Indian' taxi drivers or 'gas station owners' back to India are conveniently forgetting one thing. Most of them are just as American as you are....most of them are American by birth or naturalization. Just because they are brown skinned does not mean they are not 'American'. Face it: US is a nation build by immigrants...they are here from all corners of the world. Their ethnic background has nothing do do with being 'American'.

Now I do agree with the fact that India has a lot of catch-up to do to get the cockpit upto international standards. CRM is almost non-existant in India. Like many have pointed out, many FOs can't even fly a basic raw data ILS with all engines working in IMC without the autopilot. Many can barely land the plane. Having flown both in India and the US, I was shocked by the utter lack of piloting skills and instrument flying knowledge exhibited by many FOs. Many would not even pass an Intrument Rating in the US! I can guarantee that Indian aviation has a long way to go before catching up to the rest of the world.

[COCOCHANEL]

@Propdog

Balanced perspective. I like.

[TopTup]

Propdog....in all due respect I do not think your description of alien labour is accurate.

Countries screen potential immigrants based on the labour needs of that country and at that time, and it is reviewed regularly. For example, sometimes it is nurses needed more than engineers or carpenters more than lawyers (already too many of them anyway!)

In India, they have a shortage of skilled and experienced pilots needed to fly the category of aricraft in discussion. The (3-4000) CPL holders in question do not have the skills needed. The sorry state for them is the system that should prepare them and teach them the skills required is corrupt and incredibly woeful. There is shortage of skilled labour in the field of pilotting tansport aircraft. Hence, that skill needs to be imported. Those without a job should be scrutinising and holding those corrupt officials and managers accountable! Then going after the the airlines and the disgraceful training standards.

Eg: you only have to scratch the surface of what that VERMIN (read into that as you will) in charge of expat contracts does, and where his bank account(s) are. Can of worms there kids.

We all want only the best of success for those unemployed, BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF SAFETY.

[Neptunus Rex]

I really feel for the many CPL holders in India who cannot get their foot onto the first rung of the ladder. Top Tup (whose soubriquet is a marvellous pun and double entendre!) is so right to point out the corruption in the 'system.'
However, that is only part of the problem. The so-called 'self improver' is also a 'self-selector.' The flying training establishments will be more than happy to train anybody, regardless of their skills or proficiency, as long as the student can pay! You then face selection for that all-important first job as a professional pilot. Sadly, at least 20% of the 'self-selectors' will fail to impress their potential employer with the requisite skills or personal qualities. Their sole achievement will be to have lined the pockets of the flying school owners; their dreams are then put on hold.
Tragic.

http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/money.gif http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/money.gif http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/money.gif

[propdog]

TopTup,
I never said all foreign labor coming to the US are engineers. Read it again....if there is a need for a specific category, INS will approve the issual of work visas on the behalf of hiring companies. I even specifically mentioned nurses. The only way to get a work permit in a field with no shortage is to have very high qualifications....I mentioned IIT grads coming into the US as an example of that category. They do it to import 'academic/research intelligence' into the country.

[itsbrokenagain]

Propdog, you seemed to overlook one thing which you actually touch on in the developed world, such as the USA you say "INS will approve the issual of work visas"

In the real world the government departments do their job, ie you don't see the FAA banning all foreign pilots and writing it in the FAR's do you? You have a government department that can analyze the needs of the workforce and operate as it should... its a pity its not like this in India, the government agencies in India such as the DGCA seem to cross the line and become or appear as very socialistic.

[alouette3]

itsbrokenagain,
Not completely accurate. Post 9/11,based on laws passed and the creation of the TSA, the FAA did rewrite the FARs to institute tighter controls on pilot training of foreign students in the US. Part 141 schools and CFIs had to undergo training to get approval for a foreign student to commence training. In a democracy, every govt. agency can and will be subject to the laws that are changed by the political leadership. India is no different.
Now, admittedly ,the DGCA can be very knee jerk in it's reaction and seems to sway every which way depending on the puppet masters (politicians and the airline CEOs and their lobbyists) but to say that the DGCA "rewrote " the CARs to get rid of the expats is not completely accurate.God knows, I am not a fan of the DGCA, but in this one instance, I think the blame lies elsewhere.
Alt3.

[propdog]

itsbrokenagain,

I was just trying to shed some facts to counter the claim that it is so easy for a foreign pilot to get a job in the US and that we should kick Indians out of US workforce because India is sending expat pilots home.

The only way for a foreign person to come to work in the US if if they have a shortage of manpower in their specific occupation. In the last five years, US sent thousands of IT staff back when their H1-B (work visas) ran out and the US was able to employ their own citizens to fill the void. As far as pilots go: US does not issue work visas for foreign pilots. The only way to fly as a pilot in the US for a foreign pilot is to already have qualified for a 'green card' or be naturalized as a citizen (which can take years depending on many factors). As I said before; most of the pilots, NYC cab drivers and small business owners of Indian origin in the US are naturalized US citizens. On what basis can you 'kick' them out? In that case why stop with Indians...lets get rid of all Germans, Brits, Japanese, Africans etc. Soon the US will only have Indians left----Red Indians:)

But on the other hand, I do agree with others on lack of infrasructure in all aspects of Indian aviation. Expats deserve credit for doing a great job in accelerating safety by introducing better training standardization, CRM etc. Many Indian FOs I know would rather fly with an expat than their own! Also, outside of the airline world, Indians need to fix their own ab-initio program somehow. I have trained Commercial-Instrument rated Indian pilots who could not fly an ILS to save their lives. In the US, in airline training departments, we focus on transferring your knowledge and skills to a specific airplane. In India you are doing that in addition to providing basic flight instruction on how to fly an ILS, intercept a radial, reading a Jepp plate etc! As I said before, most brand new Indian FOs will not even come close to passing an IR rating in a C-172 in the US! And you cannot pay your examiner off like in India...be it a Private license or A320 rating. How do I know this: I was asked and offered bribes during my tenure in India. Don't take me wrong....it is not that Indian FOs are bad pilots....they are victims of a bad training system.

Is DGCA overstepping it's boundaries to write regulation to keep foreign pilots out? I personally think it is a bit overhanded and that it is a matter for Indian Immigration and not the DGCA. But different countries have different rules. They all don't have to follow the US footprint....do they?

To sum it up; if I were the DGCA, I would not be in too much of a hurry to kick the expats out....eventhough it is within their right to do so. To the very least, they must honor the contracts which were already signed off to individual expat pilots. But spare me the rhetoric that we Americans need to kick all 'Indian' workers out of the US because they kicked expat pilots out of India.

Happy landings!

[alouette3]

Well said,Propdog. Trying to say the same thing for a while but you did it with balance and eloquence.

Alt3

[Anotherpost75]

TopTup

Eg: you only have to scratch the surface of what that VERMIN (read into that as you will) in charge of expat contracts does, and where his bank account(s) are. Can of worms there kids.

Nice to see VARMINT getting the recognition he deserves. It would be difficult for him to fund his daughter's CPL course in California on an Air India InR salary alone - obviously he needs a USD income from somewhere and guess where it comes from!!

[airflirt]

dear toptup,
there are a thousand ways of saying the same thing and i am afraid you tend to choose the worst options. nobody said that your concern for safety is wrong. but to say it with as much venom is. i am really amazed at the blatant personal remarks you have chosen to make against my posts. my posts may not be that great but hey! give me my space. clarifications!!! by "mediocrity", please accept that we dont need ace pilots in civil aviation. anybody with a conservative attitude and acceptable flying skill is welcome. as i said earlier, the proof of the pudding is in eating it. its been a while since youngsters got upgraded. so far so good.
one word of advice to the moderator. toptup has really lost all sense of balance. his posts are a case in point. abuse of any kind is not welcome, whether personal or general, whether intended or implied. but i know people of his ilk with limited education can do no better than ghetto dialect.

[Gooneybird]

It's a supply and demand issue but to be honest I don't think it will help the unemployed fresh comms out at all for the reasons previously stated. The lack of GA is one of the problems they're having. Lots of Indians going to foreign flight schools due to a lack of flight training in India which again misses the opportunity for having Indian pilots able to work as instructors.

Of course national pilots should be priority but it's not as simple as setting a number to get rid of by a given date. Seniority in an aircraft should not be a decision based on demographics but rather on demonstrated competency and experience, you can't set that to a time table.

It must also be added that most countries in the West do allow for some level of permanent residency for foreign workers with enough time spent on work permits.

Hopefully the market will begin to turn around. For the Indian pilots with low hours and currently unemployed, I do feel for you but I was there once too, as long as I remember aviation has gone in cycles and getting that first job is rarely easy.

Lovely country and people.

[TopTup]

Airflirt.... You got personal when you played the race card. You drew the venom. And I'll restate it. You are pathetic. You fail to use FACTS to support an arguement but resort to labelling others as racist when you have nothing to contribute or your agenda is not satisfied. That is disgusting.

Once again your post embarresses you. To be proud of mediocrity in itself defines you. Those with an educated opinion can see my point of view. Some have openly supported it. Some challenge it in an educated and respectful manner. You label me racist. That in my eyes makes you scum.

I am concerned that you think my comments were implied? Nah...quite deliberate.

Your "space" is welcomed. Your agenda is not. Go back to ANY of my posts and find the racist comment. To label me or them as such is despised.

Imbecile.

This thread is not the place for this, and I've already lowered myself enough to respond. You want a slanging match, send me a PM, otherwise sit dumb and happy in your mediocre world.

[jimmygill]

I am writing this mail while transiting on an international flight to VIDP. I have regard for toptup and the things he writes. I may sound contrary in this mail, but I will like to focus on the issue of safety as seen in India in its own social and sovereign relationship.

3500 people, mostly of adult working age, die annually on the railroads of Bombay. Every death is an unfortunate combination of 'rare' and yet too 'common' an event. I had stayed in that city for almost a decade and am fond of that city. One sordid afternoon I happened to witness such an accident.

A 12 car train, at super-crush-load of 15 passenger per square meter of available floor, with total 6400 plus passengers, hits a commuter crossing the railway line. The body disintegrates in half a dozen pieces. Somebody is tasked to gather the pieces. That guy works with bare hands, collects the pieces and his face and his gesture shows a kind of madness at this jobs... the train service doesn't stop, commuters turn their faces away, and get on to catch there train. Incidents like this 3,500 a year in a single city, 10 every day.

Safety is NOT an issue in India.

Approximately 20 road accident death every hour, not monthly, not daily, every hour. Annual count of approx 0.2 million road deaths.

Safety is NOT an issue in India.

In the delta of Ganges and Brahmputra (SangPo), lies the protected Sunderbans, habitat of Royal Bengal Tigers and honey-bees. Quiet a dangerous place for honey-collectors. They still go there, collect honey... in a good year only 50 are killed by the National beast. How much does the bottle of honey fetch, a 50 cents or may be a dollar?

Safety is NOT an issue in India.

Aviation in comparison, is super-duper-safe. Please don't count this as an excuse for the alleged/actual recklessness shown by ATC/FlightCrew/Regulators. This is just to show, what we have got here in aviation is somehow, notionally and unfortunately adequate enough.

You want to safeguard local jobs at the sacrifice of safety THAT is my point. If there was no sacacrifice of safety then by all means employ the national pilots.

What is more important, safety or transportation, or honey, I feel unexplicably uncomfortable answering that question, frankly I cannot answer that question.

I understand toptup's emphasis on safety, and safety should get importance. But exactly how much importance does the safety deserve, that has to be decided by the 'local'.

But I will love, If toptup can write a letter to the civil aviation authority of at least his country to consider downgrading or outrightly banning Indian carriers from operating in that country's national airspace. In my opinion thats the most effective way he can address the safety issue. I will repeat safety is NOT an issue in India.


dgtl887:
Civilised countries ? I'd advise you to watch your tongue when posting in this forum. Take your racist nonsense elsewhere.

I agree to the objectionable usage of the phrase 'civilized country', but I hope in the view of the real life facts I have given above, India of today, is nowhere close to being a civilized place, It was one in the past, but now its decaying fast. If I can borrow from Shashi Tharoor, "A highly civilised country in an advanced stage of decay", this description is realistic and optimistic at the same time.

Calling a casual usage of the phrase 'civilised countries' as racism, is highly unwarranted. We are average pilots here, and not all of us possess literary sophistication in the English language to use each and every phrase correctly, but keeping calm is quiet a needed quality in the profession.


Skydancer Wrote:
.... Nowadays the world is suffering from reverse racism and nothing much is being done about it.

There is no such thing as reverse racism. Acceptance and use of the phrase "reverse racism" is acknowledgment and to some degree acceptance of racism . I hope with you.

Agree to hoover:
how can mediocrity be safe?....... ....Please stop using the race card whenever you don't have an answer.

The race card is the most used on this thread.. or threads like this. Safety is measurable. Sometimes mediocrity may just be safe enough. When it comes to $ everything is optimized. In some scheme of optimization mediocrity is just fine enough. And in some systems if you can bring in mediocrity its quiet an improvement to the system.

The acceptable standards are specified by the DGCA and the Airlines. I will rate DGCA, much lower than a mediocre organisation, if you can bring in mediocrity to DGCA, its quiet an improvement.


Jumpdrive:
all i can say is
GET A JOB
before the %$@# really hits the FAN

If thats all you could say, than you ought have stayed silent. Because inadvertently whatever you have said has exposed a big deal about your capabilities.


Toptup:
Back to the thread: train the nation pilots to the standard suitable. No shortcuts, no trade-offs, no corruption, no bribery, no compromises. (And that DOES NOT only refer to India). See the expat contracts out as per the legalities they are due, then induct the well trained, disciplined and suitable national pilots.

I can only wish good luck to all those who have a contract, if DGCA does make it illegal, than the expat contracts will be terminated under Force Majeure. But I am sure thats not what will happen, the phase out will be gradual process and not a sudden one.

In India the law follows innocent-until-proven-guilty. "Shortcuts, trade-offs, corruption, bribery, compromises" may be visible but not proven. If it has not been systematically proven, it cannot be remedied. I will resist from being romantic about these. The aviation in India is not ready to divorce itself from the above vices.

WiedoSalt
As far as Government sanctioned nationalistic pride taking precedence over safety is concerned

Its not nationalistic pride, its nationalistic need to provide employment, let the Indian Commuter, Indian Regulator, Indian Legislator, Indian Aviator and Indian Operator decide how much safety they want.
If that level of safety is not safe enough to enter your country, please ban these airlines, call ICAO.

Your insistence on a safety level, of which neither toptup, nor you have provided any metric, is legitimately seen as an intrusion. I am sure in your country you don't go and tell your neighbor how to treat his wife and kids. I am sure you do care that all citizen are safe and they get their rights. But still you don't go knocking on you neighbors door. You may go to city police, or city council, or state legislator, or house or reps.

Similarly in aviation there is a mechanism, to promote safety without intruding into sovereign economic or political issues. By telling Indian pilots that "you are not safe enough", you are simply intruding. And thats why your arguments about safety, which otherwise will be so welcome, are somehow rendered unwelcome.

I am not a sure how a French or Spaniard will comment on your "Nationalistic Pride taking precedence over safety", because the very use of the phrase indicates that you have given "Nationalistic Pride" precedence over common sense and reasoning.


n retaliation for this practice, US congress & all foreign gov't of developed countries must ban all Indians working in their aviation industry. this Indian practice is called protectionism & frowned upon by Obama admin. & free & fair trade.

This is funny, A country that loads her every newborn with a debt of 40,000 USD, right at the birth, should be the last one to even think of protectionism. Its only comfortable for Obama to frown on protectionism.



I cannot cover rdr's input in this post so will post later.

Happy landings

[TopTup]

Jimmygill.... BRAVO. :ok:

That [airflirt] is a well educated and well informed post. While I disagree in principle on some issues I more than appreciate the reasoning. Some arguements I have not considered before. A sincere thanks.

I did have a meeting with a guy from the regulatory aurthority in my home country. He was very interested and amazed. The details we all know. Needless to say however, welcome to politics! Guess who puts in HUGE orders from Boeing? Not to mention the many other industries.... This creates jobs, and so the big, ugly, dirty wheel turns. So, is India the only guilty party? Hell no.

That still does not remove that fact that oversights in training and safety are deliberately and methodically overlooked everyday. (Not only in India). To know about them, accept them and doing nothing OR as others prefer, to EMBRACE medicrity is just not on.

BUT! This thread is about removing experienced (expat) pilots from India and replacing those numbers with inexperienced pilots that will be churned through a system that fails them. I would still be arguing the same point as strongly if it were experienced national pilots being removed under the same guise.

Again, Jimmygill - cheers. Well written. I think a lot of people are better informed as a result. I may not agree with all issues but appreciate the well formed opinion.

[airflirt]

dear jimmygill, that was a well written reply. i hope toptup gets the answer. i am only stating fact when i say that youngsters are doing a great job so far. mediocrity is not evil as jimmy has rightly pointed out.growing countries like india have far fewer resources than they are ready to believe. and every attempt at recruiting hot-shots (like toptup) comes with a hefty price tag and even heftier arrogance and attitude. and nobody becomes proficient unless thay are put through the paces. i agree that safety needs a lot more emphasis. DGCA india has far more conservative stance . proof!!! look a indian rules, which are always far more conservative than icao mandate. india of late has been in news for wrong reasons, like strikes and scuffles etc. i hope sanity returns soon.

dear toptup, you call me dispicable. look at you. you have turned a nice little debate into a slanging match. you have to take your remarks else where. this board can do without your downright preposterous tone & inferior usage of language.your standards have only dropped since i first read your post. as far i go , my relatively superior education only allows me so much response to your muck. i shall behold myself from replying to your abuse in future. as for you, with that tone and tenor, even well meaning remarks of yours will be taken in wrong spirit everytime.
live happy in your ghetto world
god bless.

[King on a Wing]

@TT
In ur post #65 when u said Vermin did u mean Verma...???
Just out of curiosity....;)
DO let me know however ...

[NGFellow]

So what's the word on the future of the expat pilot in India? Are they going to renew you guys "FATA" or not after July 2010?

Don't worry--There are still lots of jobs out there for A-320/B737NG/B-777/A330 pilots, as long as you have time on the aircraft as a P1.
Perhaps it time to get a head start, so that when July 2010 comes along, you won't be one of those 500 expats looking for a job.

From reading most of these posts, it appears that you have about 18 months. Plenty of time to do a thorough job search. And by the way, China is offering a lot more money than the Indian carriers, as well as 3 year contracts.

[sam.c]

first of all my dear expat i can see that you are a bit frustated coz might be contract is getting over very soon in india due to DGCA 's very good and thought full decesion which i truly appreciate from the bottom of my heart
first if you are working out of your country i mean anywhere please have some good views , as that country gave bread and butter to you and your family which your country didnt give even you r a proud citizen of it

so cheers there are a lot of jobs still outside, wat i can see in india expat pilots were paid ransome so wat they all want more now its time for them to go back as there are lots of local pilots avail able
i can think as a indian i cant work in western countries coz of lots of regulations
eg in europe to work for you need be a european union passport holder plus jaa licence and lots of formalities . this all rules are so that an outsider cant apply there and the jobs remain for their own people. smart whites
and if they come to india and fly they not need to be a indian licence holder just fly on a permit on the basis of original licence god knows where they get from..
so at least have some good views and a good heart