Hong Kong 49ers obtain justice, at last!

['round midnight]

Eight years ago, Cathay Pacific Airways management behaved disgracefully by arbitrarily firing 49 pilots; professionals, as it turns out.

Today, the High Court in Hong Kong mauled Cathay Pacific Airways for the abysmal way it treated these employees.

It may be a very old industrial dispute to many on this forum, but to those to whom it mattered, please visit the 'search' function on Pprune for a history of this sorry saga, or visit the Cathay Pilots Union website - the Court transcript of 'day 7' is a gem to read - to discover how these brave souls, or at least most of them, obtained justice, at last.

Alternatively, Google 'Warham Cathay Pacific' in 24 hours time for a 70 page indictment of the managerial practices of Cathay Pacific Airways.

'RM

[BOAC]

Congrats to all for their determination. I look forward to reading! I feel so sorry for those who suffered mentally and physically during that time.

[DCDriver]

Likewise - and finally justice for JW and his colleagues

[Meeb]

Yes, good news indeed, persistance pays off! :D

[Hellenic aviator]

http://www.cathaypilotsunion.org/proceedings/CXJudgment.pdf

Justice served indeed :ok:

[beamender99]

Associated Press

HONG KONG—A Hong Kong court has ruled that Cathay Pacific Airways (http://online.wsj.com/public/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=0293.HK) Ltd. unfairly fired 18 pilots amid a labor dispute in 2001 and ordered the airline to pay the former employees more than US$7 million.
The 18 pilots were among a group of 49 fired in July 2001 when Cathay's main pilots' union and management were locked in a dispute over wages and scheduling. The union launched a "work-to-rule" campaign, discouraging members from working beyond the terms of their contracts.
Hong Kong High Court Judge A.T. Reyes said in a ruling Wednesday the 18 pilots were unfairly dismissed and wrongfully terminated.
He said Cathay executives also defamed them by publicly accusing them of disrupting the airline's operations.
The judge awarded 17 of the 18 plaintiffs 150,000 Hong Kong dollars (US$19,350) each for unfair dismissal, a month's pay each for wrongful termination and HK$3.3 million each in defamation damages.
Cathay Pacific spokeswoman Carolyn Leung said she was still studying the ruling and had no immediate comment.

[18-Wheeler]

In my old job I flew with a 49'er and I can understand why he was fired - he was a Grade-A nutjob.
Were not some of the firings justified .... ?

[overstress]

Hey 18-wheeler - the court didn't think so, are you wise to take them on? :hmm:

[M.Mouse]

Your opinion may or not be valid regarding the gentleman concerned but having read a good deal of the judgement and the transcripts it was plain that Cathay management were using the industrial dispute to sack those they saw as causing them the most grief, perhaps settling old scores at the same time, with the aim of scaring the remaining pilots into buckling under to the craven management's aims.

I dislike unions per se but recognise they are a necessary evil and have been a career long member of BALPA but I cannot help but feel the victimisation and intimidation and the loss of job and, for some, career was the action of a vindictive, unpleasant and downright nasty management. The judgement was fully justified but I doubt it in anyway fully compensates for what the 49ers went through. In the future I am sure many pilots will benefit from what they doggedly pursued all these years.

Well done them.

[18-Wheeler]

Well he refused to follow company SOP's, his method of getting people to do things was to shout at them, no-one wanted to fly with him, etc.
That enough?

[cessnapuppy]

Doing the math on this, I'm not sure the pilots were even made whole, much less punitive damages applied. If they got jobs immediately after being sacked then its a windfall, otherwise I dont see it as much as a win.

It seems they got 'closure' more than 'justice'

[411A]

It seems they got 'closure' more than 'justice'

Justice is when they collect, expect CX to drag this out on appeal until the 49'ers are old and gray.

[Captain Dart]

18 Wheeler, the issue at stake was not for what they were fired, but how and why they were fired. Also, some members of the Star Chamber that selected their fellow pilots for dismissal were also unpleasant to fly and simulate with. One, who is no longer with Cathay Pacific, is known as The Screaming Skull.

[Dan Winterland]

''Justice is when they collect, expect CX to drag this out on appeal until the 49'ers are old and gray.''


I'm not convinced they will. This is a landmark case in Hong Kong labour law - it's groundbreaking. I suspect that the deliberations over the verdict were discussed long and hard at the highest levels and the decision to award the case was not taken lightly. CX will realize that an appeal will proabably fail.

[Fly747]

Maybe just dreaming here but wouldn't it be a great day for us all if management accepted the verdict or even welcomed it as a way of finally laying things to rest. An appeal would only serve to keep the wounds open.
I for one hope that they are man enough to recognise that the whole episode was a huge error of judgement.

[Steve the Pirate]

Fly747

Nice thought but I seriously doubt that management would welcome the judgement. "A sign of weakness" is a phrase that springs to mind....

That said, maybe this will be the catalyst for a new phase of co-operation and negotiated deals that will benefit both sides - or am I dreaming too??

STP

[Lamyna Flo]

Well he refused to follow company SOP's, his method of getting people to do things was to shout at them, no-one wanted to fly with him, etc.
That enough?

Ok, so that's one individual out of 49. Any comment on the other 48?

[18-Wheeler]

Ok, so that's one individual out of 49. Any comment on the other 48?

No, as I have not flown with any of them nor am I aware of all of the history behind it. I understand there were some unjustified sackings, but in this case they got it right. The guy is not fit to command an aeroplane.

[Freehills]

The case wasn't so much about if they deserved to be sacked, but if the correct ways of sacking people had been followed.

[HotDog]

18 Wheeler;

[QUOTE]The guy is not fit to command an aeroplane.[QUOTE]

I admire your courage to post an opinion like that. It might well bite you.

[Fenwicksgirl]

The point being here guys is that none of them were given a chance as is their right under the contract to defend the allegations. Maybe some of them would have still been sacked for whatever reason but that is irrelevant.
This result upholds our rights under our contract and our right to participate in union activities under the employment ordinance here in HKG. Whether some of them are muppets (in your opinion) or not, does not matter!
Well done to them all!

[Slickster]

Well he refused to follow company SOP's, his method of getting people to do things was to shout at them, no-one wanted to fly with him, etc.
That enough?

Then I'm sure you followed your company procedures, and reported the individual, or perhaps you even had the balls to speak to him one to one?

Your opinions of the individual(s) concerned are irrelevant. What was on trial here was whether Cathay had dealt with them fairly - and most people do not reckon that to be the case.

Any company will have it's bad apples, and personality clashes; the way to deal with that is not to summarily fire them without justification. What a pain we can't just sack the people we don't like, but it protects us all from a bullying management.

[18-Wheeler]

Then I'm sure you followed your company procedures, and reported the individual, or perhaps you even had the balls to speak to him one to one?

Yes, I made a complaint to the company and refused to fly with him again.
Anyway, apologies for the thread distraction.

[blue_side_up]

Sat down with a bowl of cereal this AM for a little light reading: Judge AJ Reyes Judgement paper.

Some very clear wording from the Judge. Some senior CX types also choking on thier breakfast I suspect, not for the same reasons however.

A few pertinent excerpts from Judge Reyes words:

"There is more to Hong Kong than just Cathay" (pg54, para146)
What??! Didn't he get the Swire-issued memo on this subject?

"I am unable to hold that Cathay acted responsibly" (pg57, para161)
That's it, his entire paragraph. Rather clear, isn't it?

"Cathay fails on justification" (pg63, para190)
Part of the Judges' reasoning on whether the dismissals were, in fact, justified.

If anyone else wants to read the whole 70pages:
http://www.cathaypilotsunion.org/proceedings/CXJudgment.pdf

Well you'd think this would wrap up the whole nasty saga, but will it?
Many think CX will appeal, however the judgement is pretty clear. They'll have to provide a strong reason for appeal. Doesn't mean they won't try though, just to drag out the payment...

However, they haven't appealed against the US DOJ's $400million (HKD) fine yet have they? Funny thing, I guess they don't fancy messing around with someone (DOJ) who may actually have more power and money than them? (At least in the US). Not quite the same when it's a small bunch of 'unprofessional pilots' (their words!) in their own backyard.

[Teal]

The poster below ("The Management") has been baiting and tormenting CX pilots for years. It will be interesting to see how right/wrong he is on this. (from the Fragrant Harbour forum).

We will appeal and we will win. You think you have won the war but it is just a battle. We will win in the end.

This episode will end in our favor. We will appeal and when it goes to the High Court, we will prevail. You are only mere pilots or bus drivers, if we don’t need you, we would not have you. You are a necessary evil and we will do what we want.

This is not over and the DFO has every confidence that he will prevail. He will have the support of the Swire Group [and he will not be held accountable}. He is immune to Hong Kong Law. He works for Swire and they will protect him.

This money will be deducted from your SLS, so we don’t really have to pay anything. You actually paid for this payment.

To My Bonus.
The Management

[fire wall]

Teal,
"The Management's" posts form a satirical and succinct commentary of the companies actions / future deliberations.
It still amazes that readers don't get it.
Is the general pilot body really that thick ?
Duh !

[411A]

We will win in the end.



The fact remains...airline managements normally 'win' in the end, whether it is liked by the employees (and outside observers)...or not.

Fact.

[GlueBall]

M.Mouse "I dislike unions per se but recognise they are a necessary evil and have been a career long member of BALPA. . . "

Just casual doubletalk, or hypocritical? Why put up with such evil? Stand up for your belief and honour. Quit the union. Stop paying your dues. Bend over and let the company run your life; or better yet, join management and become a company man? :confused:

[cluin44]

We will appeal and we will win.

:= No you won't.

Actually if there's decency within the Swire organisation they will accept the ruling gracefully, pay up and publicly apologise to the 49ers for the disgraceful performance of their management at Cathay Pacific Airways. Cathay's actions have brought embarrassment upon Hong Kong.

[M.Mouse]

Just casual doubletalk, or hypocritical?

Neither. To be more specific unions tend to become run by ignorant militants with poltical agendas, read UK history from around the 60s and 70s for an illustration.

On the other hand they are necessary for the reasons illustrated by the 49ers. For a current example where a union is claiming to represent its members but has been doing them a disservice for years and is leading them by the nose into an unwinnable fight have a look at BA cabin crew union BASSA and its current dispute. That is why I generally dislike unions and the people who lead them.

BALPA and other airline unions do have the distinct advantage of generally having intelligent people at the helm who do not blindly follow socialist doctrine with no acknowledgement of commercial reality.

[point8six]

Good luck to the 49ers - they deserve compensation after such a long fight. As for airline unions being composed of "intelligent people at the helm, who do not blindly follow socialist doctrine" - that smacks of arrogance and naivety. Have the balls and resign - or else change to management like so many BALPA reps have done so, in the past:rolleyes:

[Whiskery]

.............expect CX to drag this out on appeal until the 49'ers are old and gray.

411A, CX need to provide evidence of a "miscarriage of justice" or flaw in the judgment before an appeal can be made.

What evidence do you consider CX have for an appeal? :confused:

[cargonaut]

Not nearly enough $ for the lives they damaged. The well deserved black eye is more punishing than the financial penalty.

[doubleu-anker]

As for the 49'r that was referred to at AAI.

Funny old world is it not? CX and others put these guys through the hoops with with 3+ interviews and some still get through with every personality defect known to man.

[G-AWZK]

BALPA and other airline unions do have the distinct advantage of generally having intelligent people at the helm who do not blindly follow socialist doctrine with no acknowledgement of commercial reality.
Excellent. So self sponsored type ratings become the norm, management can ride roughshod over the pilot group.

Unions have managed to create the working environment that we now take for granted such as the 40 hour week, safety protection for the workforce, injury compensation, abolishing child labour. In fact just about everything you take for granted in the world of work has been fought, and in some cases died, for by trade unionists, but you keep thinking that all unions are communists.

Then again, in the UK train drivers now have, in some cases better T&Cs than pilots, so obviously union representation is a bad thing.

[M.Mouse]

I do not wish to divert this thread and it is plain you have absolutely no understanding of what I wrote nor did I say or imply that unions do not have a purpose. Start another thread if you feel that trade unions are the saviour from all our ills.

[unablereqnavperf]

To add to 18 wheelers argument I also flew with one of these guys and his ego and arrogance were beyond belief! For some one earning what he was I was knocked flat by his attitude! I do believe he may be one of the 18 as well! I also second te opinion that often union's are lead by people that have their own agenda's and more oftenthan not good union people end up in management. I have only ever come across a few real good eggs in positions of power within a pilots union. I think the current leaders of the BA cabin crew union are prime examples of why unions are a bad thing, not forgeting the ultimate union bafoon Auther Scargill! Worked wonders for the miners didn't he, I'm sure he didn't suffer financially for their cause as much as they did. Priced them out ofthe market! Don't get me wrong there is a place for unions but I much prefer to negotiate my own financial package based on what I'm prepared to do and how much I'm prepared to do it for!

[buzz light]

Does anyone know why only 18 guys. What about the rest ?

[arem]

As I understand it, one died, the others settled with the company before the court case

[blue_side_up]

Regards the 'personality' (or perhaps lack of) amongst the 49er's...

I also came across a few of them, 5 (at least) were with my former employer at one time. In my own opinion, 3 of them were socially awkward and/or argumentative, and downright pricks. Right or wrong, I can see why they were in the companys sights. The other 2 were (are) outstanding aviators whom I'd be happy to fly with anytime - I have no idea why the might have been targeted, but the whole sorry affair wasn't logical was it?

Of the 5, as far as I'm aware, 1 of the pricks has returned to CX, along with the both of the outstanding ones.

Anyway, regardless of individual's defects - and as another pointed out, it's astonishing they passed the CX barage of interviews in the first place (news flash: maybe it's exactly what they were looking for at the time - arrogant pricks!), what counts is that they were fired without proper procedure. I'm happy to see they got some of the justice they deserve after so many years. It's a pity the 'good guys' who settled, and returned to CX, won't see the same justice ($$$) themselves.

[rick.shaw]

Maybe a few of the 49'ers were pricks(as you would get in any representative group). However, as stated before, there are ways to deal with that. These chaps were denied due process. That was clearly stated by the Judges in 2 court cases.

Just to let you know, there are still a bunch of pricks left in the company. And they are still here! Thankfully, a move to the left seat removed the requirement to fly with most of them again.

[Captain Dart]

Agreed. One Star Chamber member once took off in a 777 with a gear pin left in after a negligent walkaround ('if it had been anyone else I would have fired them'). One damaged a door on a Jumbo pushing back with the aerobridge still connected. At least, no one in Cathay Pacific now has to fly with the Screaming Skull, or with the gentleman subsequently 'Star Chambered' himself after a very low flypast in a 777 full of trans Pacific fuel.

These individuals compliantly went through the file of every pilot in the airline, selected several hundred of their fellow aviators for termination, then the list was then whittled down to the 49 or so by senior management. The Chamber members had chosen so many pilots to terminate that there was concern the airline could not operate if they fired the lot.

[slice]

Captain Dart, the Screaming Skull !!!?! Do tell!

[Captain Dart]

The Skull's nickname pretty much says it all. He is now in a very influential position in aviation regulation in Australia.

[Oleo]

Well done 49ers :ok:

Any mention/desire for reinstatement now?