Imprests

[Lowkey]

Dear All,

If this a repeated question I apologise.

Why do we still run imprests? In this age of litigation and accountability surely there must be a safer way! We are not insured and cannot get insurance and we appear to be right royally hung drawn and quartered if things go wrong. I can't believe other nations run imprests and I know BA run a system of reimbursement(actuals) within a set pay scale.

Any comments? :(

[Autorev]

How can one get H,D&Q'd for messing up something that they have had absolutely no trg in? ( I am of course excluding the JO Admin imprest holders!)

[dazbo]

Imprests do appear to be somewhat 19th century. Having used the escape tunnel a few years ago I have worked for several companies with varying different ways around this. OK its called corporate expenses but the theory is the same.

1. Pay everything yourself and claim when back at base/office.

2. Company picks up bill. All you do is sign bill at time to confirm it is correct. If the company has a query or you have spent over what is allowed/authed then you reimburse company.

3. Corpoarte credit card. Either as 2 or billed to individual and paid by direct debit from Bank AC and claimed back on monthly expenses.

Obviously this is fine when remaining in the 'civilised' parts of the world and not so practical elsewhere but if one of the above was used in where possible it would probably save a few JO's from lost sleep/worry. (also make sure you get your claims in in good time so as not to lose out)

Will probably get a few choice replies.

PS Never held an imprest so what do I know :confused:

[Megaton]

Corporate credit card has not worked well for US armed forces. The bank has had to write-off substantial amounts of bad debts accrued by inappropriate use of the credit facility. Since the government here mandated that all expenses were to be made against the issued card, everyone and anyone seems to have been given one without a credit rating check. Thus the bad debts have accumulated by service personnel who have either no intention or ability to repay them.

I do agree, however, that the imprest system doesn't work particularly well. I was given several thousand pounds worth of Portuguese escudos (or whatever) in high denomination notes. Arrived in Lisbon and tried to catch a bus and, strangely enough, they couldn't or wouldn't accept it.

[Flatus Veteranus]

There was a story in the V-Force about a Vulcan crew whose flatiron went good and sick in the USA on a world ranger. At McLelland, I think. Whilst awaiting rescue they did not want to cramp their social life by having to lug around their substantial imprest. So the holder (bright spark this one!) invested it at the local Savings & Loan (building society) at a very attractive rate. Back at Waddo the acker bashers could not figure out how to handle all this interest, so our hero finished up with a bollocking rather than the accolade. :)

[Megaton]

Imprest Holder in Norway a few years ago managed to dish out too much cash to almost half the det (he had difficulty with the currency). When he figured out his mistake, he rather naively asked all those who had been given more than they had signed for to return the cash. Since he had absolutely no idea how much he had actually given out, the result of his request was hardly a surprise. If I remember correctly, his bacon was saved by the rather astute sqn adj who had been making some deals and had acquired a working surplus with the books balancing as a net result!

[Aggressively Average]

Like many others I have done my fair share of imprests while away. The training I got was generally by osmosis from the crew and a stiff talking to from the Imprest Clerk. The only way round it is to issue everybody with their rates before they either as cash or into your bank account. Ther is then a duty bloke who has an emergency amex in case you break or change route. The present sysytem is open to abuse and is not helped when you get back from a week away to discover that the cashier is closed and you are left stranded with the cash. Not good when guys can get court marshalled for loosing a fiver!!

[Talking Radalt]

Go rotary...it's all free.

Bed: bivvy bag in back of cab or under nearest tree £0

Food: Rat pack swapped by Rock for ride in said cab £0

Ents: Watching those who expected the Boeing Hilton to offer all the usual Hilton facilities £Priceless

[Fishbones]

Lord Flash Heart,

Running an Imprest a flight safety hazzard? Do be brief!
Truckies have a bad enough reputation for whinging as it is, but that takes the biscuit.

[Autorev]

Fishbones,
Quite right....one obviously gets the co to deal with hotel bills/ imprest payments.If he hast to bust his crew duty in order to get the bills paid/ imprest balanced ....well he's only the co after all....Flight Safety... nuffing to do with me.

I'm not a truckie, but have heard plenty of stories where this happens. But as I said, what contribution does the co make to FS....

[DP Harvey]

The method of paying allowances when away from home has to take into account the worst case. This is the young, married with kids, SAC who is told at 2000 hrs to get on a C130, leaving in 2 hrs to go to Norway with a new engine for another C130, as one of the team to do the engine change. Its 7 days before the next pay day and he has given his last few pounds to the wife. He is sensible, but broke, and needs the rates asap in Norway (expensive place, as we know)

If he had a corporate money card, the RAF would need to be able to open and close his access to his account. He cannot be allowed to simply use it whenever he wishes. What system could control that card at short notice when his shift supervisor didn't know he would be going in 2 hrs, let alone SHQ deep in its slumber. There is definitely a case for a 24 hrs Accounts Flt at Lyneham and Brize.

I've spent 20 yrs mulling over cash imprests and sadly my opinion is that until we have a system that permits cash issues (in the correct currencies) at very short notice by the accountants at home base we will have to use cash imprests.

Comparisons with BA and the airlines is like comparing chalk and cheese.

[Shouting Rad-Alt]

Lord Flash!
My sympathy knows no bounds. If you have trouble running the money, then dont! Do like Talking and myself, sleep in a tent/ bivvy bag.

[Brakes...beer]

As a former OC Dosh and even Cmd Accts man (tin hat on), now flying for a small regional set-up, I have to say DP Harvey is absolutely right. I don't know the current state of play, but when I was at Strike 3 years ago, there was an attempt to simplify the rates, even - shock, horror! - to have one on-base rate for the whole of the States. I think this was sat upon by the MOD or Treasury, who were horrified at the thought that somebody might make a teeny profit occasionally. This attitude is a perennial problem in an organisation funded by the taxpayer, and it can result in an overweening bureaucracy which costs more money than it saves.

I agree that a flat rate (say HOTAC + 50 USD)might be desirable, but the rates are not just for aircrew; they are for the whole of the Armed Forces and, I think, are linked to civil service rates. So you would inevitably get, say, an army officer based in Oslo, who would complain that he was permanently out of pocket.

I think BA use a Diner's Card issued to all flight crew which they can use to draw cash around the world, and they presumably get the balance paid to them at some point. At my own airline I get a flat rate of about £20 per nightstop, which I claim at the end of each month and receive at the end of the next month with my pay. This may be simple, but it's not as speedy or, by and large, as generous as the Air Force system.

If you want to run a simple imprest: pay all the bills on Amex, don't issue anybody any cash and let Accts Flt pay everybody when you get back. Not ideal is it?

(Edit :) By the way, if you have lost money over a genuine mistake (as opposed to gross negligence) on an imprest nobody should get court-martialled. Admit it and the money will be written off. The same applies if you pay out too much money and you don't know who got it.

[ 17 August 2001: Message edited by: Brakes...beer ]

[Talking Radalt]

"lost the money in a genuine mistake" eh? What?
You mean the receipt says "Busty Belinda" instead of "Lusty Linda"?!!!!

[Roobarb]

If there was one thing that really got my back up in the airfarce it was imprests. I could sign for a £5m jet without question, but the blunties wouldn't trust me to sign a miscellaneous payment voucher for a taxi! I remember chasing around RAF XYZ at 6pm trying to find a bluntie to sign the F95 to approve off base accommodation, even when it had been agreed and booked because XYZ had no room!

The airline world is simple and straightforward. You attract allowances for the trips you do, the money is paid to you in arrears at the end of the following month. Whilst downroute you cash local currency or make purchases against a credit card, which you pay off entirely at the end of the month. Simple, straightforward, transparent, foolproof, easy, quick. Furthermore, the airline can't afford to pay a Sqn Ldr bluntie to check up if you managed to make 3p here and there, so they don't. It's simply not cost effective.

The accommodation downroute can be paid by a separate corporate credit card, and all other incidental expenses should be signed off by the Captain up to say a £100 limit without further authority.

Flasheart is right about flight safety. My colleague used to spend a large proportion of the flight just trying to keep up with the increasing and absurd paper chase. To let it fall behind would make life even more difficult, and would have led to mistakes for which he and I would have been crucified.

I wish you guys luck in overcoming this Neanderthal practice. :mad:

http://www.sausages.demon.co.uk/ian/classic/thumbs/roobarb.gif

[Dan Winterland]

Flight safety - try concentrating on the task in hand when you are still worrying about the fact that your imprest is out by a thousand bucks and you are convinced it will have to write a cheque for it when you get home. I have, and it is a distraction. (Maths error discovered on RTB BTY).

On another matter, on my last route we were faced with a max crew duty day (16 hrs) with two long flights over 8 time zones. I decided the clock started running when the Co got to reception to pay the bill and start worrying about movies/phone calls. When the mover who was supposed to be at the airport wasn't and we couldn't get to our met and jetplans which were in a locked office, we delayed 30 minutes and ended up night stopping at the intended flag stop due to the extended duty. All justified IMHO from the flight safety point of view.

As a co at a secret base in Oxfordshire may be able to confirm, it is not worth trying to be flexible to try and make your departure time.

My points are that the current system is a flight safety issue, a time waster and expensive. If there is a system which needs changing, this is it.

[Fishbones]

Imprests are simply not a flight safety issue. Stop being so f***ing blunt. If you keep using the "flight safety" chain to get things past handbrake house there is a danger of being accused of crying wolf.

What's the difference between running an imprest on the ground and any other secondary duty? If ground matters are infringing on your flying then get in that "bubble" earlier.

[nigeriley]

Fishbones

A major difference to an imprest and "any other secondary duty" is rest time .. your secondary duty does not have to be done whilst the rest of the squadron is sleeping !!!
The main problem is minimum ground time stopovers, especially when pax are involved, many a co-pilot has had very little true rest dealling with the problems that can occur.
Unfortunately IMHO the majority of junior co's will not complain as they think it will look bad. It is up to more experienced crew members to help and support them .. is this not what CRM is all about ???

[15/15 flex]

What some here fail to comprehend is that, in many cases, the imprest must be balanced prior to the return to home base. It is often not feasible to track down the rest of the crew once home; especially if carrying supernumaries from other stations.

To be fair, I do not believe that the military has the effective resources to go down the airline route, but I do believe that it constitutes a distraction to the imprest holder, when he is trying to balance the books, and fly the a/c. this will become more poignant on the two-man flt deck a/c. (How's 99 running it?)

The Sqn I'm on now operates two-man flt deck and the loady is responsible for all but the AMEX side of the imprest. In addition, passengers are responsible for their own accommodation in the event of a night-stop somewhere, planned or not. This certainly removes the problem of having to travel across Dakar, by cab, in the wee small hours of the morning, in order to pay the passengers' hotel bill; then flying a max Crew Duty day to MPA, via Ascension. I relly don't think I needed that extra hassle 4 hours before departure. Oh, we also get all of our allowances in US dollars, unless night-stopping in the home country, and the system picks up what you lose in exchange rates - that I like.

What's the answer? No idea really, but surely the loady can enter into the equation somewhere; how many times have you given them a handful of envelopes (sealed, of course!!), the pre-requisite forms, and asked them to hand out the cash to the back end?

Stands back and waits for attack from ALM mafia!!

[Dan Winterland]

Piece of wee wee - until your first one doesn't balance!

For those who don't think it's a flight safety problem:

Try running an imprest over 5 weeks for 38 people using seven different currencies totalling some $80,000 for which you have signed for and you are personally responsible. And when you get back, OC Accounts accuses you of doing something dodgy (you haven't) and says he's going to have you investigated. You calculate you have spent more time working the imprest than flying on evercise (a busy one at that) and a lot of time worrying about it. And when you balance it, it's so complicated that you are down, so you have to write a cheque for £30.

That was my worst one. Was flight safety compromised? Definately!

(BTW, the OC Accounts problem went away when he was arrested for lifting a hundred grand of USDs from the Accts Flt safe :eek:

[propulike]

OK, the way I saw it is as follows -

It's nice to turn up in a country and have the local dink available. It's even better not to have the prats feel that they have to complain 'cos their mate's been to *cheap* place whilst they've only been to *expensive* place and so they're out of pocket. I'm not going to choose to get paid 2 months after spending the money, and as for sleeping in the dirt, I mean, please.....

The problem with the imprest (most of the time) wasn't the cash/card handling - the problem was completing the vast mound of paperwork, in up to quadruplicate, in order to explain to the accountants what had gone on. (OK, on the max crew day with the 60min journey to the airport and a 2 hour check-in the night before then there's a case to say no I'm not playing, but the majority of the time paying a bill 30mins before wheels isn't really an issue.) The majority of imprests I did I could track on the back of the envelope containing the cash. Come to fill out the official paperwork however, and it took several hours. There have been several ways suggested by which the paperwork could be reduced, but nothing's been changed. It's as though the scribblies need the stuff in order to justify their jobs!

[StopStart]

Imprest handling is, on the whole, not difficult so long as you are sensible about it and keep track of what you are doing on a daily basis. It only gets a bit trick when you start losing track of who you've given what to etc etc.

I do find it difficult to make a flight safety issue of it (along with staying in tents :rolleyes: ).
When I was a co I treated the paperwork side of imprests with the contempt it deserved. As long as the money I had left plus the reciepts I had equalled the money I was given then frankly I would be hard pushed to give less of a toss about the niff naff side of it all. Ten minutes every evening keeping your "books" up to date saves hours of head scratching on the final leg home.

Most amusing imprest event I witnessed was an OC Accounts trying (and trying) to settle up a det imprest at the end of a fairly lengthy det. I subsequently found it most amusing to read the little diatribes he pumped out every so often telling all us young Cos to run our imprests properly.....

[BEagle]

Ahhhhhh - imprests!! I remember those. Along with "This is your corporate AmEx - but you can only use it for hotel costs, nothing else". Then another mate on the sqn received a rude letter from SpAmEx threatening all manner of horrid things because 'his' AmEx bill was still to be paid by the idle blunties! So said mate duly phoned SpAmEx customer liaison, gave them the home phone number and address of OC blunties and demanded a letter of apology - which he got! Irate call to Sqn boss from OC blunties duly followed; boss told him to get stuffed and to put a rocket up the ar$e of his bone idle staff!

Then there was the time back in the early 80s when, about 3 months after our trip, the hag who sorted out imprests in Accounts Sqn (!) demanded to know why we had been provided with hire cars at Punta Raisi, but no catering, and why had I issued several kilo-lire in lieu of airline catering - but no receipts. I couldn't be bothered to explain about handling agents, etc, so just said that 'Everything was handled by the locally appointed agent'. When the old bat asked his name, I told her it was a Mr Don Corleone of the Cosa Nostra Company - and that she was quite welcome to phone (whatever the number was) at Punta Raisi and ask to speak to 'anyone representing Cosa Nostra'. She did. Nothing more was ever said..........

But the best ever was getting one over that horrid old dog 'Money Monster'. You know who - she of coat hangar fame. We arrived at St Athan to do a static display and found we'd been put up in a B&B full of prisoners on remand. "Bugger this for a game of soldiers", we said - fortunately we had already extracted the F95 out of the old sow's trotters, so simply found a rather better many-starred gaff for the weekend.....plus a tame taxi driver who was, according to the co-pilot, quite 'creative'.........allegedly!!

[D-IFF_ident]

Those of you how think that imprests are not a flight safety hazard have obviously not experienced them as 'Truckie' Co-Pilots: To stick by the rules the cash can't be taken home with you, and once back at base must be handed-in within 48 hours. Doubtful that you'll see the Captain in that time, so best to balance it on the last sector.

After a normal day, getting up at 0700, picking imprest up after lunch (and locking it in the safe in Ops), bed around 2100. Up again at 2330, crew-in 0030 - arrive Washington 0800 Local. Hotel and bed @ 1000L, try to sleep through ambient noise and cleaners trying to get through the door. Crew-in @ 2000L - Midnight Z/body clock. 0400, Nat track X, 50N 020W, GE just returned last of the taxi money, Stewards trying to give their lose change back, Captain anxious to sign off paperwork so he's not detained in Ops after RTB. Imprest doesn't balance? No time to fix it though, you've not slept properly for 2 nights, difficult to stay awake now anyway. Best to try to forget the imprest and pick up the weather for base... It's 20 knots across, overcast 200' in heavy rain, better to concentrate on the monitored ILS you'll need to fly in an hour and a half, there's another 130 people on board all expecting you to fly that right. Try to fly the jet, don't think about that $1000 you can't account for, fly the jet, I'm sure it's somewhere, fly the jet, I can afford $1000 if I can't find it, fly the jet, after all I'm only the Co-Pilot.

Flight Sub Imprests, if run in accordance with Lead Command Account Instructions are as much of a flight safety hazard as anything else that distracts a pilot from the primary duty of the safety of the aircraft and passengers!

My advice to Co-Pilots? In the last 2 years of my co-pilot tour I never balanced the imprest in-flight. Hand it back to the FSI office without the signature of the captain on it and let them track him down. My apologies to the Captains that I've caused to be called-in by the FSI office, except if you are in a position where you could have an influence on who are authorised to hold imprests.

At the sectret Airbase in Oxfordshire the Co-pilot mafia pursuaded OC Accts to allow the ALMs to run the imprest, but other highly paid help decided that the practice is good Officer-quality building stuff for the Cos. B****X!

Flat rates? Yes please, and to those who complain 'what about Army boy x in Outer-such-and-such for 6 months?' Well, I doubt he would be receiving his rates from a FLIGHT SUB IMPREST.

Here endeth my opinion...

[Rude C'man]

Whats an imprest , whats money , what are rates and what the bloody hell are actuals .
Flight Safety my arse take and admin girly with you or get the Opso to do it all . We are Aircrew and therefore fly Aircraft let the bean counters deal with the money .. it aint that difficult
:cool:

[Flatus Veteranus]

D-IFF_Ident

Well said Sir! The grunts would have you substitute "tent" for "hotel"!

[BEagle]

For the education of certain folk, it is important to note that there is a considerable difference between the duty patterns worked by those who are required to cross multiple time zones upsetting circadian rhythms and those who work in a close-in tactical environment. Whilst the field conditions in which certain RW aircrew work are indeed austere, the admin effort needed to support such activity is relatively straightforward and could indeed be sorted out by 'The OpsO'. However, when our dung-eating friends are being flown home from some god-forsaken $hithole in some land populated by squabbling peasants in which they've found themselves deployed thanks to Trust-me-Tone, will they sleep any easier if they know that some of the crew (which has probably been forced into a sleep pattern dictated by maximum crew duty time and minimum CRP) have either been up sorting out HM's pennies when they should have been asleep, or are bothering themselves with administrative trivia when they should be concentrating on the job in hand?

Some would probably say "What's crew duty time? We well 'ard rufty-tufties don't 'ave such poofter rules, 'cos we're grunts wot is abuv such fings. We likes livin' in bivvie bags and cr@ppin' in ditches, hotels is for soft Crab Rodneys". Fine - but frontal area aviation in support of forces deployed in the field is a whole different ball game, of course, to strategic air transport. But, at the end of the day, the primary job of all aircrew is indeed to fly; never have we been so stretched as we are now - and never has the accounting for every bean required such ridiculous levels of admin as it seems to at present.

There surely must be a better way than the current bull$hit!

[ 19 August 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

[StopStart]

D-IFF
Erm, slightly Am-Dram old bean...

I’m sorry, but having served my time as a truckie co I still feel that imprests, whilst a pain in the AR5, are not the great flight safety issue a lot of people would have us believe. I sure I'm not doing the co-pilot mafia a great service by saying this but all it takes is a bit of personal admin on your part to keep your sh*t in one sock and not cock it up.

As for your quoted scenario....surely if the issue of a crew's worth of rates for one night and a couple of cab fares are going to cause you to pile your jet into the Oxfordshire countryside then I would suggest you need to re-prioritise your duties.

My advice to co-pilots. Your primary job is to act as P2, either monitoring the captain's flying or doing the flying yourself and absorbing the gems that flow from the captain’s fount of wisdom. Secondarily you have to sort out accommodation and the issue of rates to the rest of the crew. As long as the captain gets the biggest suite in the hotel and a pocket full of beer vouchers then you have completed your secondary duty.
When you get home, hand in what money you have left over, get a receipt and tell them they'll get the paperwork when you're finished with it, assuming you weren’t able to sort it out while you were away.

As soon as you feel that your secondary duty is interfering with your primary duty (properly interfering, not just depriving you of a chapter or two of “Harry Potter and The Wizard’s Sleeve” or whatever, in the cruise) then say so. Simple as that. I’ve done it and I actively encourage any co-pilots I now fly with to do the same.

Don’t let the tail wag the dog (as seems to be de rigeur in most parts of the RAF these days… ;)

[BEagle]

Whilst I agree that it isn't that difficult, some people are perhaps too easily pushed around when it comes to being flexible with the imprest. I was always told:
1. Work out, in advance, how much everyone should get in their hand in the currency of that country.
2. Give it to them as soon as you can, but NEVER part with cash without a signature.
3. If anyone needs cash for taxis etc, DON'T give it to them in advance. Tell them to bring a receipt (to the nearest dollar, blatt or whatever) and you'll reimburse them when they do.
4. If paying the hotel bill, try to do it the night before. Get an agreement that all the accommodation has been paid for; and that anything else will be paid for by individuals. If you're in the US, remember that it took quite a while to find 7 people capable of doing a chimpanzee's job in the Mercury programme, so that means that there are quite a few who didn't measure up to a chimp's IQ - and most of them seem to have ended up at Holiday Inn front desks.........
5. Captains are supposed to use either the GSM phone or calling card for duty calls; don't fall into the "Did you clear my phonebill, Co?" trap - there should be no reason to have done so!
6. If the groundcrew have run up 'official' phone bills without telling you, either tell them to claim the cost back when they get home or, only if they provide you with receipts and you're content that they were indeed duty calls, reimburse them.
7. Never let anyone try to hand cash back to you; similarly don't allow yourself to be badgered into cashing cheques for those who've been stupid enough to blow a week's allowance in 2 days! Tell them to use their own credit cards!

The idea is to get rid of as much dosh as you can to start with, only pay cash for things that really need it and to minimise the number of transactions - and consequent paperwork. Balance it all before you get home, get it signed and get rid of it as soon as you can!

[ 19 August 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

[propulike]

Blimey BEagle - I'm glad I was never on your crew when the imprest wasn't being dished out!

An easier way is to give people whatever they want as long as they sign for it! The imprest office back home can't 'do you' for nicking cash, just complain because they've got to instigate pay debts. Not an ideal way to do it, but if you're short of time - it works. Also, if you've told the boys/girls/whatevers a time to clear their hotel bill, anything left on can also be paid, and the individual gets charged by the blunties (with a 30% admin charge!) on return to blighty. Again, not ideal, but keeps your workload down and only penalises the lazy $#!ts who are taking liberties.
Just be honest with whatever you do!

[BEagle]

If you read it carefully, I said that's what I was told; not what I did!!

But too many so-called world travellers are notoriously poor at funding their day-to-day needs and come bleating to the co-pilot when they've blown all their money on something it wasn't intended for. Presumably Mummy still wipes their bums at home?

Sympathy - nah!!

[Sangiovese]

The points to remember about imprests are simple:

It is money from the public purse, is accountable to the last penny and it comes from our taxes. Therefore there should be no creativity in it.

That is fine in principle but....

A co-pilot (like it or not) is there to aid the operation of an aircraft. He/she is not there as the stooge to carry the money/take the p155 out of, or many other things. When in the 'mission bubble' his/her primary task is to operate an aircraft. Now for the new guys around on a fleet that is often all they can cope with.

The thought that any idiotic Flt Cdr sees running an imprest as character building, and something that should be reported upon is farce. It also demonstrates the blame-culture that all so often pervades the RAF. OC Accts/OC Admin/Cmd Accts (excepting a few individuals) I am sure have never realised the effect that some of their 'cover my six' policies have upon front-line aircrew.

Now this is not an argument of tent vs hotel. Or SH vs AT/AAR. The procedure for running FSI is pure public accounting practice. And that is the way I am sure it will remain. Because no civil servants really have a clue what you do, and will not change their regulations for you.

Not withstanding current occurences that were alluded to earlier in this forum, I would suggest to any FSI holder - if you have any doubt in what you are doing or have done. STOP. Inform the captain. Let him/her sort it out. That is what he/she is there for. I'm sure we all remember the old 'Distractions' video.

In the current climate, as far as public monies are concerned - If there is any doubt, I would suggest there is no doubt. I'd rather delay an extra day than have the co-pilot's mind still on the pan doing the checks, when you're at 40W having a nightmare with a GR7 formation.

[Lowkey]

For all of those who have contributed to date I am very grateful for the majority of sensible replies that have been received.

For those not on AT AAR related jobs I have the following words, and as a former RW pilot feel that they may be taken with more than a pinch of salt!!!

I have been on various flights for many hours in the mountains or over the water after 1 hr or less of sleep thinking should I and the rest of my crew be here. We are all absolutely knackered have been flying for almost 10 hrs at 100ft or less searching. This I very strongly believe is a serious Flt Safety Issue!

However, I have serious doubts for a Junior Co-Pilots ability to monitor his Captains flying when he has been delayed before leaving base to go accross the pond, had minimum crew rest delayed on return and then discovers tht his imprest does not balance!! Whilst 9 times out of 10 this will not cause problems, 1 time is already too much of a risk!!!

One of 2 things should be done, either insurance should be offered to all those who carry imprests or alternatively a flat payment should be given to all crew in pay or as an issue by a duty Cashier, with bills being covered by a credit card carried by either Co or Capt. If we are then sent to a location where other bills will require settling, a duty person from TAC (Tac Admin Wg) <it might exist> should be taken to carry out the job he is trained and paid to do.
Whilst the system remains as it is one day a young Pilot Officer may lose or have taken more than a years pay (not an unlikely amount!) and find himself in severe panic not only for the duration of the flight but for subsequent weeks to come, even if he knows he may not have to pay it back.

[ 19 August 2001: Message edited by: Lowkey ]

[Farfrompuken]

It's not the admin faff, before during, and after a trip that are the greatest issues that I have a problem with. It's the fact that with approx 1 hrs training, you are then cleared to carry around ludicrous amounts of CASH(!!), and if you have a snag (as one poor individual is finding out), the Air Farce washes it's hands and hangs you out to dry.
Stopstart: you do your fair share of P1 work too, you know (albeit non-capt), and that requires a bit of pre-flight thought, time which is usually spent faffing around over hotel bills/taxi fares etc. Not the best flight safety practice, methinks.
:eek: :eek:

[ 19 August 2001: Message edited by: Farfrompuken ]

[StopStart]

Sangiovese speaks a lot of sense..

Farfrom...

I agree there are times when there is an imprest faff but at the end of the day there are just as many other faffs we have to go through....passport checking and rechecking by the local Hitler, taxi/bus doesn't turn up/gets lost, catering cockups by the handlers, man in office at other end of airfield who requires a copy of your flight plan, GE who needs a quick blast round the BX etc etc
This is all stuff that you just have to deal with without then getting airborne and flying straight into the nearest hill because you're worried about it.

Half the reason you were selected to be an aviator in the RAF was that you can cope with all the "pressures" of the job. I'm not belittling Flight Safety - heaven forbid. I'm just trying to point out that you cannot claim every obstacle you come across as being a Flight Safety issue. If that were the case we would be chauffeur driven from our free hotels, carried onto our aircraft where we could then sleep for x number of hours whilst someone else flew them for us.
I’m also not a “be there and cope” or pressonitis type of chap – far from it – in fact I’d be the first to take a 24 with only the slightest provocation. However, the job we do is often characterised by the fact that we can be busier on the ground than we are in the air (with apologies to the tanker w*nkers). If you can’t cope with that then maybe you’re in the wrong job…(not a direct comment at anyone btw – just a general one :) )

PS, I am well aware you do your non-capt P1 stuff too (me - route Herc captain, last tour route Herc co) and there are times when things are rushed. Wait 'til you're a captain (I assume you're a co - apologies if you're not) - you swap the imprest faff for the Ascot Ops/revitin/mobile phone/placating handlers and diplomats faff.

PPS, I will agree with you that the support we receive from our "Support" staff and the system in general is, on the whole, not worth the paper it's written on (in triplicate of course).
I don't know the full facts of the current "case" - I've only heard rumours. You can rest assured that the caring sharing RAF would rather court martial £3 million's worth of pilot training than admit that he may just have not been given the training or security to deal with the however-many thousands of dollars to was expected to carry round in his pocket.


Sorry for waffling on - god, is that the time?.....I really must stay in less....