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fence_post
10th Nov 2009, 10:43
Lest We Forget all those who gave their lives in the service of their country on 11 Nov.

YouTube - APittanceofTime (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E3rGSZeHcY)

position & hold
10th Nov 2009, 12:59
Couldn't agree more, even if you can't do it spot on 11am, take just one minute to think of those who made the ultimate sacrifice to make this country what it is today.

Wear a poppy with pride!
:ok:

tiger19
10th Nov 2009, 22:56
http://www.falklandsfew.org.uk/images/poppy.gif

Eastwest Loco
11th Nov 2009, 11:40
For The Fallen
With proud thanksgiving, a mother for her children,
England mourns for her dead across the sea.
Flesh of her flesh they were, spirit of her spirit,
Fallen in the cause of the free.

Solemn the drums thrill; Death august and royal
Sings sorrow up into immortal spheres,
There is music in the midst of desolation
And a glory that shines upon our tears.

They went with songs to the battle, they were young,
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted;
They fell with their faces to the foe.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years contemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

They mingle not with their laughing comrades again;
They sit no more at familiar tables of home;
They have no lot in our labour of the day-time;
They sleep beyond England's foam.

But where our desires are and our hopes profound,
Felt as a well-spring that is hidden from sight,
To the innermost heart of their own land they are known
As the stars are known to the Night;

As the stars that shall be bright when we are dust,
Moving in marches upon the heavenly plain;
As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness,
To the end, to the end, they remain.

THAT is what being a proud Aussie is all about, and the line 'They fell with their faces to the foe" spells it out.

God bless our fathers, grandfathers and beyond.

They did us proud.

EWL

ozineurope
11th Nov 2009, 12:37
Thank you.

Living in Germany now it is good to be reminded of why I am able to live here by choice.

We shall remember them.....

Willi B
13th Nov 2009, 00:15
It's a pity that Peter Garrett, the Australian Environment Minister who can't even achieve a national policy on plastic bags and refundable drink containers, appeared on national TV on Remembrance Day without either a tie or a poppy to announce his "no" decision for the Traveston dam.

Bell_Flyer
13th Nov 2009, 03:51
When I think of Gallipoli I visualise our brave men. However when I read military history, I look at those in command I am horrified at their careless use of menís lives and their lack of remorse at losing Aus and NZ lives.


Men were brave all over Europe but it seems to me that Gallipoli is a war crime. On Anzac day I pause for the brave men but also of the travesty and the shameful decisions of those in command.

There was no credible threat to Aus, and NZ then.

fence_post
13th Nov 2009, 04:34
Willi B

Why select an individual politian out? I saw nothing wrong with what Peter Garret wore. I am a TPI and member of the VVA and attended a Remembrance day service, but without a tire or poppy. Am I guilty too? Politians are all the same, Labor, Liberal or whatever unless they have had military service. The last of my era to serve in Parliament were Graeme Edwards (Labor) who lost both legs and Tim Fischer (Nationals) who was wounded. Today, I understand Labor and Liberal have some ex-Colonels new to politics.

I am now aged 64 and have served for over 20 years in the Australian Defence Force, including operational service. Politians are happy to farewell troops, but reluctant to meet them on their return unless deceased. They never did that in my time. Just look at my era and what we had to put up with. The protestors should have thrown paint and sh*t over the then Government members of the day who sent us away instead of on us.

Trojan1981
13th Nov 2009, 05:38
On Anzac day I pause for the brave men but also of the travesty and the shameful decisions of those in command.

There was no credible threat to Aus, and NZ then.

Same could be said now...

Good post fence post

Wiley
13th Nov 2009, 06:19
Bell Flyer, it might not be fashionable to admit it today, but the vast majority of those men who flocked to the colours in 1914 and in the years immediately afterwards considered themselves first and foremost British, and a threat to the Empire, to them, was a threat to everything they held sacred. (The exception were possibly those Australians of [Catholic] Irish descent, the Taliban of the day in the eyes of most Establishment Protestant Australians. However, this didn't stop them from joining up - and dying - in almost the same numbers as the 'British' Protestants.)

With 20/20 hindsight and today's attitudes, it's easy today to say it was all a waste and Australia was under no threat, but I think you'd be a brave man to say that if Imperial Germany had won WW1, it would not have had a hugely detrimental effect on Australia.

Perhaps a safer comment might be "it would have been a very different Australia (and world) in the 1920s and 30s." And today.

Some might argue that it would have been a far better Australia than the on we got. (Let's not forget that, along with New Zealand, Australia has the rather dubious distinction of suffering the highest per capita losses of any country - including France and Germany - in World War One. And they were all volunteers.) One historian argues that WW1 set Australia back 100 years, for we didn't just lose a very large proportion of one generation, we lost the cream of what some say was probably the best generation, the pioneers and the sons of the pioneers.

And let's not forget that quite a few of those pioneers were British born, and the type of Briton who had the get up and go to move halfway around the world to start a new life to what must have been very harsh conditions.

There was no way an Australian government of that day could have ignored the War in Europe. If Australia hadn't sent its own force to Britain's aid, the vast majority of the population - Arch Bishop Mannix aside - wanted to be involved in it and many would have gone under their own steam to England to join the British Army. Quite a few, fearing the untested colonial army would not ever get involved in the 'real' war, and wanting to fight with quality regiments, did just that anyway.

I won't argue that the political and military leaders of the day were careless of their men's lives.

tail wheel
13th Nov 2009, 06:54
I am a TPI and member of the VVA and attended a Remembrance day service, but without a tire or poppy. Am I guilty too?

No, you have earned that right.

It's a pity that ...... the Australian Environment Minister appeared on national TV on Remembrance Day without either a tie or a poppy......

He could have known and shown more respect to those Australians who have earned that right.

Bell_Flyer
13th Nov 2009, 11:14
... the vast majority of those men who flocked to the colours in 1914 and in the years immediately afterwards considered themselves first and foremost British...

Very true. Unfortunately, and it is well documented, that this was not reciprocated. Indeed, the British generals often considered Australians and NZ to be 2nd rate citizens and fighters ... you get this impression when you read Breaker Morant, The Anzac Illusion and The Broken Years. Horatio Kitchener thought little of our diggers. I think, Wiley, Australians joined up and died because propaganda told them to do so. Just like we were told of the falling domino theory with Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh won and guess what? Thailand, Malaysia and Singapore are still tourist destinations with nite clubs and casinos.

If (and this is a big if) there was National Service today, I think you would agree with me that we would not be in Afghanistan, Iraq, and so on. Simply because, instead of sending our professional killers overseas you'd have a national conversation at the dinner table on the merits of us fighting for a piece of real estate (or worse, an obscure ideal of supporting Karzai) that has no meaning to our future or security.

But you are right about the gov of the day during WW1 not beng able to ignore the wars of Britain.

Wiley
13th Nov 2009, 20:45
Bell Flyer, after reading your 'professional killers' comment, as an ex-'professional killer', consider me out of any future debate with you.

Trojan1981
13th Nov 2009, 21:56
professional killers

C'mon Bell, you must have known that would be inflammatory:=

I am ex ADF as well and it is hard to escape the fact that those at the sharp end today have joined for various reasons, including to become professional warfighters (as evidenced by the fact that many Soldiers, including many of my former colleagues, have left to become mercenaries in recent years).
But you have stepped over the line labeling all ADF members as killers.

I didn't wear a poppy on the 11th either (where do you get them anyway?) Just my medal ribbands and RASB.

fence_post
13th Nov 2009, 22:42
I started this thread to alert people to Rememberance Day and to remember all those young servicemen and women who died - not to debate whether or not we should have been there or not. It is for the Government of the day to decide. That is a separate issue. In particular, I alerted people to this day to remember young Aircrew who were killed in war, many in their early 20's. As Pprune is about flying I thought these flyers should be remembered .

WWI saw the Australian Flying Corps lose pilots. In WWII, the RAAF had many killed in Europe, the Middle East and the Pacific. The Korean War saw RAAF pilots flying Mustangs and Meteors killed, as well as RAN pilots flying Sea Furies off HMAS SYDNEY losing their lives to action. In the Vietnam War the RAAF lost aircrew (buried recently) in Canberra Bombers and the RAN lost 5 aircrew flying with the 135th Helicopter Assault Group.

In WWII, many of these young aircrew flew four-engined aircraft in IMC, Night Flying and under enemy fire with less hours than most now have on singles. I asked to just remember them.

Oxidant
14th Nov 2009, 04:21
I ask to just remember them

Indeed, remember all the young men & women, from every nation, who made the ultimate sacrifice......

SimonBl
16th Nov 2009, 01:21
If anyone's interested, here http://www.vimeo.com/7607335, is DSLR video footage I shot of the playing of the Last Post at one of the intersections in the Perth CBD last week.

As I said in the comments, I hope that Perth never gets too big to do it every year, it still brings a tear to my eye.