Judgement in the 49ers case: 11/11/09

['round midnight]

For info: The judgement in the 49ers case will be handed down at 38 Queensway, High Court Building, tomorrow 11th November at 2.30pm. The hearing is open to the public.

'RM

[aislinn]

A very appropriate date me thinks.:ok:

[zygot44]

Yes, indeed an appropriate day for Murray Gardner and some of the other skirt pilots in Cathay to reflect on the buddies they chose to give up on.

[Tiddly Eater]

Suspect this will be the first of a few judgements until the Court of Final Appeal makes a final decision.

Court 19.

[simplex]

That would make them very slow learners then. Another good company held back by **** management.

[Air Profit]

The sad thing is that CX was once known for it's excellent management. The pilots were treated like valued partners in the company's success. Unfortunately, a malignant influence worked it's way into the highest levels, motivated by personal greed. Over a 15 year period, we are now at the point were anger is the most common emotion prevelant within the airline. Distrust, misery and a contempt have replaced the hope and enjoyment that used to characterise our careers. Well done to the Swire's for the complete destruction of a once great airline.

[Captain Dart]

The rot set in with this once great airline when Red Oddington took the reins in the early nineties. This was the start of the assault on aircrew conditions, including the introduction of B scales.

His successor, David Downturn, continued the process with the bizarre and unnecessary 1999 'sign or be fired' ultimatum to crew, the response to which cost the company dearly. The situation was never properly resolved, and the 49ers were the result.

Then when Yoo No Hoo, previously a sidekick to the above gentlemen, took over as CEO his 'vision' was to transform Cathay Pacific Airways into Air Mong Kok.

Now the current regime is left with the legacy of the incessant war that has been waged on crew conditions since 1992. Appropriately on Remembrance Day, the company will be called to account for what was done to our 49ers. It is to be hoped that justice will finally be served.

[iLuvPX]

Great recap Capt D, but something else had a great impact on the downturn of this airline. That being the AOgAy. This all happened on there watch and they put up very little resistance; in fact, it would seem like they were in bed with those individuals?

Im sure the AOgAy will try to spin any victory from this case as something they helped bring about, in there typical Swine fashion.

AOA, oy vey :yuk:

[The Messiah]

I think this one has been done to death but to remind some of you, the 49ers were not deserted by the membership at all, the motion was voted down the first time by the membership but was then presented again for a re-vote, outside of the democratic process mind you, by some individuals who clearly had their own agenda. It was then carried the second time by the smallest of margins.

It is a cheap shot and way too easy to say that crap on here so as an AOA member at the time please tell me what should I have done?

[canuckster]

What you could have done was rejected the AOA's disgraceful actions, joined CPU and helped fund the legal cases. Many of us did exactly that. Presumably if you'd been unfairly terminated you'd have wanted exactly that as well. :ugh:

[The Messiah]

Quitting the AOA was never the sensible option, not for me anyway.

[Some How I'm Tired]

That was not the only option.

I stayed in the AOA, protested in writing (and verbally), and actively encouraged my friends and peers to do the same.

When that failed, I ensured my vote counted by helping ensure the masterminds of this were not re-elected. Had I quit the AoA, then I would have had no say in anything relating to my contract in the future - not just the 'one issue'.

Oh, and in the meantime, I sent some spare change to the CPU to help support the 49ers case.

[buggaluggs]

Back on topic. What's the word? :E

[Liam Gallagher]

Unfair dismissal: $150,000 each plus 1 months pay (except Crofts due UK award).....


































Defamation: one month's pay and $3m General Damages and $300k aggravated damages (pain and suffering if you will) each, plus Company to pay their costs on an accessed/scaled basis.

Whilst perhaps not true compensation for the loss of a career, the company wont get much change out of $100m. Wonder how they will fund this latest fiasco? Probably lodging the Appeal as I type......

Edited in blue to remove misinformation

[Tiddly Eater]

If you are indeed correct, and I hope you are, there is simply no way that Cathay will let this go away. They will appeal to the ultimate court in the hope that their deep pockets and politically sensitive judges will eventually see it their way.

As for the Judge, if this is his ruling, he can expect that he will go no further than the Court of First Instance. Politicians and their businessmen masters do not appreciate such impugnity.

What a remarkably brave judge!!

[buggaluggs]

Bloody good work! The Cathay spin doctors will have their work cut out for them there! :ok: :ok:

[Liam Gallagher]

My words above are all very unofficial as my snout has not read the entire Judgement and there could be some punches pulled in the final pages. It would seem there are some harsh words in the Judgment regarding Cathay's behaviour..... like "no defence offered".....

[Toe Knee Tiler]

"Great recap Capt D, but something else had a great impact on the downturn of this airline. That being the AOgAy. This all happened on there watch and they put up very little resistance; in fact, it would seem like they were in bed with those individuals?"

The HKAOA is not a parent that looks after a helpless child you clown.

The HKAOA is all of us. Those of us with balls used the tools and guidance given by the HKAOA during a very stressful time with our employer.

How many of you who bitch and complain about our union did your bit because I know a lot of you that didn't. How much resistance did you and your mates give.

You are probably not even a member. "Oh I just don't agree with the direction they are going" translated is "I am a scared little soul and it costs too much".

[leftof]

Congratulations guys it has been a long haul for you and your families :ok:

[ron burgandy]

HK High Court Judgment!
The High Court has ruled that Cathay Pacific wrongly and unfairly dismissed 18 pilots in 2001 following industrial action. Mr Justice Reyes ordered the airline to pay HK$150,000 plus one month's salary to each of them. In addition, the airline was also told to pay HK$3.3 million to each pilot for defamatory remarks it made against them.

[BusyB]

Congratulations to all those who pushed this case on.:ok:

[Arcla]

Congratulations!

[Toe Knee Tiler]

Cathay Pacific Pilots Welcome The High Court Ruling


Congrats

[kahuna]

I wonder how much space tomorrows news paper articles will get on the display boards at Cx city.
As much as the cabin crew case got I’m sure!

[Hoofharted]

Geez Billy you make me laugh. As long as it's only your foot :uhoh:

[stilton]

Congratulations, but why is the award to only 18 Pilots ?

[Liam Gallagher]

I do hope you are not a CX pilot:eek:..... "only 18" because only those 18 participated. The short answer is the rest settled with the company out of Court.

No doubt there are longer answers about....

[Fenwicksgirl]

Congratulations to the magnificent 18!!!

[blade]

nice to hear,I wonder though if the AOA members that supported the 49ers for 2 years will see any of their money back as promised.

great news though!!

[betpump5]

Applause for 8 years of hard work. Great commitment to the cause.

By the way, will CX learn from this?

[hailer]

This is just a good day - for Hong Kong, for those of us who want to life in a place where justice prevails (even if very slowly), but most of all for the courage perseverance and tenacity of those 18 men. The sniping between the AOA and its detractors is irrelevant, tonight at least.

HK$3.5 million is a lousy return for 8 years of loss of a career and rejection by many in the aviation world - the ones who took the CX offer probably are better off financially but not morally. It is not every day that a bunch of determined guys probably destroy the career of a DFO, witness his predecessor "chicken out" of facing the court and see ridicule poured on a previous CEO.

Sure, CX might appeal - but it will be purely for face if they do and I suspect they will let it rest in the hope of short memories. They have got out of this lightly as far as money is concerned.

But tonight congratulations to those 18 guys who deserve unreservedly to enjoy the moment.

[Rice Pudding]

Well done guys.

[gobbledock]

Has anybody phoned The Screaming Skull to get his thought's about the judgement ??

[Bograt]

Note to Blade ^^^ They can keep my 2 years worth. Or donate it to the Sunnyside Club (pending the inevitable appeal).

Congrats to all.

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

(pending the inevitable appeal)


An appeal is not automatic. There must be sufficient grounds for it, in this case there are none..

The money value in the judgement might not be that significant, but the publicity is PRICELESS!!

Well done to the 18 and their lawyer, you will go down in history as " The A-TEAM-EIGHTEEN "

[valhalla634]

Congratulations to JW, QH and their 16 supporters. It took them eight years to defend OUR contract and right to unionism.

As for Mr "blade" and his refunds, I am sure you could come to some arrangement. Compare your last eight years remuneration package with CX to the 49ers, deduct the HK$ 3.5 M and your two years of contributions (what happened to the other six?) and settle up the difference.

[kingoftheslipstream]

I hope the award stands, and that there 're no grounds for appeal.

Well done Gents! :ok:

[Old China Driver]

Well, well. It would seem that the harsh light of justice is now burning to ash those contemptible individuals who created so much misery and anguish. I hope that every one of the managers who took part in this travesty will be walking through 'The Street' tomorrow with a suitable look of shame about them. What you did was nothing less than what the Nazis regularly did to their opponents. Without any regard for due process, morality or semblance of fairness, you deliberately set out to destroy the careers and very lives of people who had been nothing more than loyal employees. You abused your power, and caused very grave harm to a group of people who deserved better. Never mind the anguish and harm caused to their wives and children. Although CX was the named and shamed party in this judgement, it is really the individuals who took part in this shameful episode that are to blame. The irony is that it is those contemptible individuals that should be now subject to D&G's and then summararily dismissed.

[WeakForce]

Well said OCD. Congratulations to the "18" and all those who stayed the course and supported what CPU and professional aviation should stand for:

http://www.cathaypilotsunion.org/proceedings/CXJudgment.pdf

[Tiddly Eater]

Wonder how the "king of crew control" Mr Sherman Lam feels after the Judge totally disregarded his puerile and vindictive evidence with the disdain it deserved.

Then again Mr Lam was really no more than a management GIMP, a bit like the fall guy at Ernst Young who altered and forged audit papers.

[BusyB]

Having won does this not mean that CX management have perjured themselves in court? If so, should there not now be criminal prosecutions?:confused:

[40Deg STH]

Just a thought.
Since the AoA and others let them go, is it worth looking at joining the 49's union?
Dont critisize just food for thought.
Maybe the Cathaypacific union is more relevant to us.
We as a group are yet unified, this concerns me, and before you start, I belong to the AOA

[Hellenic aviator]

40*S,

I understand your point (thought), however, I recall our DFO clearly expressing to us, when the CPU was formed and asking us to consider joining, that CX would not accept them as a body of representation (not his exact words), and that CX would negotiate and deal solely with the AOA.

Now having said that, imagine if say 70% or greater decided to now join the CPU - would the Company change its mind or would they be going through Hong Kong's legal system to get things done?

[stillalbatross]

40s, aren't you getting confused as to the purpose of a union. Granted the court awarded to the 18 but how does that fit in with negotiating a better contract? Do we run to court when we want a 5% pay increase. I don't see any connection between the two.

[Baywatcher]

BBC NEWS | Business | Cathay in $7.6m payout to pilots (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8354851.stm)

[Captain Dart]

Come on, The Management, post something! You know you want to!

To your Bonus!

[Scoreboard]

Reading the judgment it didn't appear the Judge felt they prejuried themselves. But gave contradictory evidence, and from his intent the examination of the defendants was so thorough that there stories very quickly showed holes as big as the grand canyon.

The interesting implications was the judges discussion on the Employment Ord. He gave the impression that Cathay was in breach of the Ord. If thats the case then the Labour Department implications is that they could pursue Cathay for those breaches.

But then there high level Mates will save their asses from that happening.

For the CPU and those 18...well done. Been sending my donations and hopes that you would win and thus discourage ever again this bull****.

Keeping score

[iLuvPX]

Stillalbatross, i think its you who are indeed confused about the purpose of a union. Its seems like the years of inaction by the AOA has accustomed you apathy.

You just dont join one cause its the only thing available. You belong to a union that has shown nothing positive ever since giving up on the 49s. You dutifully pay your dues, yet receive nothing in return.

You say "how does that fit in with negotiating a better contract"? How does the AOA fit in? What improvements to the contract have you seen?

At least the CPU gets things done. Show positive results and returns. If they were companies, which would you rather own stock in? Certainly not the AOgAy.

[Fenwicksgirl]

The AOA is just a democratic representation of the pilot body. If most of us voted no to the deal for the 49 ers then we would have continued down that course. The fact is, most of the pilot body voted to accept the deal, rightly or wrongly, hence why the AOA accepted it. We could argue about the then GC's influence in the vote but at the end of the day the choice was ours.
I voted against accepting but realised i was in the minority at the time, that's life.
The guys of the CPU have done a great job, congrats to them all!! They deserve all the accolades they receive! AOA, i hope you are taking notes!

[OldChinaHand]

Para 146 of the Judgement.

"There is more to Hong Kong than just Cathay".

HMMMMMMMMMMMMM that must be a bitter pill to swallow for those Ivory tower icons who thought they would never have to answer for their actions.

The Judgement should definitely spark off an investigation into a possible breach of the EO. I dont think an appeal will rise as there was no defence, or at least no one willing to tell porky's to save CXs butt. Judge Reyes got to the kernel of the issue quickly. Examination of evidence was direct and probing.

Well done to all. Its a great day for Labour Law in Hong Kong. Justice was done and Management got a good kick up the a#se for not following due and fair procedure.

[Scoreboard]

Considering all the press coverage.

the company website is awfully quiet.:D

Keeping Score.

[SOUTHPAC]

This might not be the last judgement.

I hear from a good source a female pilot who was fired on her first day back at work following maternity leave has secured the services of the CPU lawyer
and has Baby Sutch, The poisoned preacher and Nick ( the bully ) M in his sights.

This one will be interesting

[&&&]

This CPU vs AoAstuff is off the mark. The decision by the members of the Aoa to stop give money to the 49ers after 2 years was reasonable. How long did anyone expect to be supported? It's 2 years more than the vast majority of people would get in any industry. They got a fair go by the members. Given that the relationship with the company had to move on over the years it is unreasonable to expect the AoA itself put itself as the backers of the court cases. Therein lies the the CPU. Anyone consider that the CPU in reality could be an AoA idea to carry the cases forward? Could easily be. I also remember ND saying in a printed article somewhere that as soon as the court cases finish the CPU would end. Watch this space.
I am thrilled that the 49ers won this case and no, I am not asking for my money back from them.

[ReverseFlight]

They have got out of this lightly as far as money is concerned.

I think $7m is a drop in the ocean for CX and as a wannabe pilot I believe the real winner in this case is CX - small price to pay to set the playing field for future generations of pilots. Besides, the damage has already been done and it's difficult to quantify loss of job opportunity. Sure, it's a bit of a slap in CX's face but HK has very short memories for this kind of thing.

[Freehills]

Cynically, what Cathay may have learned from all this is:

When you fire someone, keep quiet.

Even Reyes pointed out that Cathay can go through D&G, then fire somebody without cause, but three months notice.

[The Management]

We will appeal and we will win. You think you have won the war but it is just a battle. We will win in the end.

This episode will end in our favor. We will appeal and when it goes to the High Court, we will prevail. You are only mere pilots or bus drivers, if we don’t need you, we would not have you. You are a necessary evil and we will do what we want.

This is not over and the DFO has every confidence that he will prevail. He will have the support of the Swire Group [and he will not be held accountable}. He is immune to Hong Kong Law. He works for Swire and they will protect him.

This money will be deducted from your SLS, so we don’t really have to pay anything. You actually paid for this payment.

To My Bonus.
The Management

[The Management]

We will appeal and we will win. You think you have won the war but it is just a battle. We will win in the end.

This episode will end in our favor. We will appeal and when it goes to the High Court, we will prevail. You are only mere pilots or bus drivers, if we don’t need you, we would not have you. You are a necessary evil and we will do what we want.

This is not over and the DFO has every confidence that he will prevail. He will have the support of the Swire Group [and he will not be held accountable}. He is immune to Hong Kong Law. He works for Swire and they will protect him.

This money will be deducted from your SLS, so we don’t really have to pay anything. You actually paid for this payment.

To My Bonus.
The Management

[stilton]

A simple answer to my question would have sufficed 'Liam G' :ugh:


Not being a CX Pilot myself I was curious as to why only 18 Pilots were awarded a judgement and not the entire 49.



Good for them, although I think the award is far short of what it should be.

[Drag_on_and_on_Air]

Congratulations to the boy's well done......

[Scoreboard]

The management is sort of sounding like a stuck record.......and he cant even get the facts right....THAT WAS THE HIGH COURT.

The next stage for management if they are suckers for more humilation is the Court of FINAL APPEAL.

Keeping Score.

[Kitsune]

Just can't wait for the defamation cases in USA... perhaps they'll make a film of it!! :}

[ron burgandy]

Cathay Pacific to pay $8 million for firing, defaming pilots (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/cathay-pacific-to-pay-8-million-for-firing-defaming-pilots-20091112-ib7d.html)


Isn't there something in Corporate Policy about bringing the Company into disrepute being a dismissable offence. Surely this kind of press coverage can't be seen as anything else than doing just that.:mad:

[CYRILJGROOVE]

C'mon CX how about some decent behaviour and pay the compensation to the men (and families) who's lives you destroyed by your brutal and unacceptable actions of 8 years ago. To appeal and have the likes of THE SHERMINATOR to take the stand again will only reinforce the way the entire aviation world takes a dim view of your management style. You were wrong to do what you did and you have been foung guilty of that in court.....pay up! you have caused too much pain already.

[Night Watch]

Check out the spin on IntraCX.... Why don't they just admit they lost and take it like the spineless, lying (under oath) picks that they are!

Congratulations to all of the 49's.... This is truly a great moral victory, if not an adequate financial one.

[Liam Gallagher]

Cathay have a Corporate Code of Conduct which is accessable to all staff via intracx. It binds all employees, directors included. Due to the magnitude of this Judgment, not only in financial terms, but by the involvement of some very senior Cathay figures, the Chairman of the Board, Chris Pratt, must be seen to take a very close look at the actions and behaviour of these individuals.

The Code promotes acceptable principles for behaviour in the work place, by not permitting any breaches of Employment Law and not condoning bullying, harassment and discrimination (including political views). The Code also cautions against openly advising colleagues to destroy documents. Breaching the code can carry serious sanctions.

Whilst the company has been properly dealt with by a Court, the focus must now turn to the behaviour of some of the individuals concerned.

Firstly, and by no means the worst, the Judge singled out Sherman Lam's testimony and described it as "an embarrasing assertion and name calling" Surely this amounts to bullying and harrassment.

A cornerstone of the Judgement was the very serious non-compliance of Employment Ordinance, notably unfair dismissal and the very real suggestion the dismissals were motivated by union involvement rather than activity (not as subtely suggested by the company's latest missive, union activities in the workplace). Mr Pratt should seek out those who were involved, both directly and indirectly, in the wrongful dismissals and both publicly and forcefully deal with them.

The manner in which Cathay conducted themselves during the Trial seemed to concern the Judge. The issue of the destruction of documents and the often contradictory testimony by Cathay witnesses needs to be considered by Mr Pratt. The fact that one of the defaming statements remained on CX's website until very recently was highlighted by the Judge and those who control the website should be explaining to Mr Pratt how this came about.

Finally, Messers Chen and Tyler. Their words cost Cathay shareholders and staff $60m. If one of us takes an unused newspaper off the aircraft we face dismissal.....

So come on Mr Pratt, show us the Corporate Code of Conduct is not some Management "yuck-speak" designed to placate Listing Authorities, but a meaningful document outlining accepted behaviour for all staff.

Mr Pratt, I look forward to your Friday telex......................

[Scoreboard]

Where did CCD find in the judgement that union activity that was employed by the pilots at anyway against the employment ord?

I read the judgement that the activites that were pursued were within the confines of our contract. And as the judge ruled in no way our voting in union activities preclude the company from said actions against union members.

Thumbs up asses heads in the sand.....lets move the deck chairs again and still believe we didnt screw up and hit that iceberg.

Keeping Score.

[Liam Gallagher]

Not sure if I understand your question or even if it's directed at me, however, I am referring to paragraph 4 of today's missive. It refers to the Terminations (Note 1) being for perceived participation in union activities and the ruling reaffirms that union activity in the workplace is in contravention of the Hong Kong Employment Ordinance.

It's either very clumsily worded or for someone not as well read in this case as you (being most of the work force) it could be construed as a continuation of the "they were troublemakers" argument. Just goes to show no lessons have been learnt.

Note 1. CCD seem to have missed out the adjectives wrongful and/or unlawful when describing the terminations. I am sure it is a mere oversight and will be amended in due course.

PS. CCD also say that wrongful dismissal applied to 17 out of the 18. To the not so well read, it would be fair to assume that one deserved to be dismisssed. They of cousre fail to mention that George Crofts succeeded in the UK Courts with his unfair dismissal claim and was therefore not able to persue the matter in HK. But then again, to admit 2 Judges had ruled unfair dismissal doesn't really "spin right" does it?

[FlexibleResponse]

The Court Judgment is a stinging rebuke for Tyler, Rhodes and Chen. Apparently, Barley is yet to be fully judged...

CX Management and Swire will be head underground and tail firmly tucked between hind quarters.

It must come as some surprise for the Swire Princes to realize that their day to day decisions and actions are not above the rule of law after all...

[Toe Knee Tiler]

Whilst not on the subject I would like to ask a question.

How come we are the only group in this workforce that are required to wear a name badge depicting our full name not only to all at the city but to the world of folks that we carry.

This started when the intimidation started if I recall.

Throw them away chaps.

And you are not expected to recall 2500 names so if you forget mine just ask and I will understand.

[Traffic]

A couple of trips through a third rate hotel laundry solves the problem:ok:

[Hellenic aviator]

How come we are the only group in this workforce that are required to wear a name badge depicting our full name not only to all at the city but to the world of folks that we carry.

This started when the intimidation started if I recall.

Throw them away chaps.

You actually wear your name badge? :p

[canuckster]

You actually wear your name badge?
I think you should with pride.
Tho' buddy I wouldn't if I looked down and saw Murray Gardner or Steve Turner on it.
That would be too embarrassing.

[frampton]

I can't immediately come up with a "snappy" title for a film but if you make anagrams of the names of some of the perceived "protagonists" such as Sir A-rian S-ire you get "Air Wars Insider" and Chen, Tyler, Rhodes gives you "coherently shred"!!

Could be a story line in there somewhere!

[Itchydog]

As a pilot I'd rather wear wings than a name badge.

[Sand Man]

Not wearing wings on our shirts is just like the RAF. There are a lot in management that need to let go of their previous lives.

[crwjerk]

Frampton you crack me up, you do too many Cryptic crosswords I think. :ok:

[cluin44]

83. The evidence from Cathay’s own staff as to the “negative attitude” of given Plaintiffs was itself vague and unparticularised. The following passage from the Witness Statement of Mr. Sherman Lam of Crew Control (which came in as evidence by agreement of the parties without the need to call Mr. Lam) was typical:-
[]
[]
[]

84. Mr. Lam’s statement amounts to no more than embarrassing assertion and name-calling. No specific details are mentioned, so that it was impossible for the Plaintiffs concerned to rebut the same at trial. The statement was of no help to the Court at all.

85. Mr. Rhodes himself candidly admitted that Cathay lacked hard proof in relation to the Plaintiffs’ alleged “conduct”.

[leehoma]

>>> Not being a CX Pilot myself I was curious as to why only 18 Pilots were awarded a judgement and not the entire 49.


It is because AOA withdrew its support to the 49ers as a result of the former team of lawyers' advice that the defamation claim was bound to fail. Many of the 49ers, willingly or unwillingly, chose to settle.

[ron burgandy]

Which Tony will it be this week?:E

[Cider30]

Anybody with a link to the transcripts of the high court ruling

Thx

Cider

[moosp]

I found it appalling to note that Mr Tyler had no mention in his weekly message to staff about the High court ruling. As he was named in the case, one would have thought he might at least have given his CCD'd filtered opinion. This was left to CCD (through which the DFO did his appropriate service on his management advancement, we should not forget) to give a humbled aggressive response, like a rottweiler being bested by a terrier.

The days of "Noble House" are over. If you wish to do business in the world, you shall do business by the world's standards, and that includes you, Mr. Catbert. (Cf Dilbert for those not acquainted)

That individual rostering clerks who have raised their poppy head above the rest to become ersatz managers should be so castigated by the Learned Judge is particularly illuminating. Perhaps he will do the decent thing. I have lived within the corporate world of Asia long enough to doubt that he will. I hope that his scheduling staff will make him realise that he has made them all look fools, and apply the appropriate methods of Hong Kong.

I honestly doubt that some of the senior management in CX could run a department in the normal business world outside of Hong Kong, where adherence to labour laws is part of the cost of doing business.

Let us all celebrate this High court decision, irrespective of our differences as to whether we took the CX option, resigned from the AOA in disgust, or supported the breakaway union. The workers of Hong Kong have seen a light in this ruling, that the days of colonial arrogance in the employment of staff may just be about to turn.

[Steve the Pirate]

Cider30

There's a link from WeakForce at the top of page 3 of this thread or you can go to the CPU website direct.

STP

[CYRILJGROOVE]

Maybe the mocking and satirical Mr. Management would like to comment on his team’s performance.

Some of the pilots that “allegedly” decided the fate of the 49ers included a manager who was in command when he pushed back a 747 in TPE with a door still open and basically just about ripped the door off. Another Star departed PEN with gear pins in. Yet another Star impressed a airplane manufacturer so much with his CRM and people skills that they gave him a very derogatory nickname. Yet again at Boeing Field, a B777 on a delivery flight was flown recklessly close to the ground in an unauthorised fly by a Star Chamber member. The Crew Schedulers were represented by THE SHERMINATOR whose submission to the court was described as nothing more than name-calling and of no value to the court. And this group of above-mentioned individuals decided the fate of some very professional pilots and destroyed many careers. After reading the 70-page report it would be a miracle if CX could turn that result around and they should probably just write the cheques out.

[Cider30]

Thanks Steve.

Cider30

[stilton]

Leehoma.


Thank's for the information and the answer I was looking for.

[leftof]

I hope everyone is keeping Mr Sherman Lam informed as it appears " NOT CONTACTABLE WHEN NOT ON DUTY" is a reason for him to report on you.
I wonder who Mr Lam reports to when he is not at work.

[water check]

I believe that a few more lawsuits are heading CX's way, particularly as they pertain to reinstatement. I still find the irony of Ian Wilkinson being the root of managements demise comical. Why don't you just offer them all their jobs back, a handshake, a decent cheque and an apology. THAT would be drawing a line under the issue.

[rick.shaw]

I wouldn't be surprised if more lawsuits are in the pipeline. Now that there has been a high profile case where justice was seen to be done and big business, with their unbelievably deep pockets, did not manage to draw the case out forever. There is no longer the excuse to have the mindset that the little people can't get true justice when up against the 'biggies'. I commend the 49'ers and their perseverence.

Unfortunately, CX has drawn out so many issues for so long that more court cases are inevitable. Nothing real as far as addressing the many issues has come from CX for a very long time. Despite the DFO's last letter, I believe it is yet just further delaying tactics and nothing concrete will come our way as a result. Many of the future court cases and resulting costs and publicity are firmly in CX's hands. Sadly, I believe this will mean much bad publicity for our beloved airline(no sarcasm intended - it is still OUR airline). So much for a socially responsible company.

[quadspeed]

Sadly, I believe this will mean much bad publicity for our beloved airline(no sarcasm intended - it is still OUR airline). So much for a socially responsible company.

What's sad is the need for the "no sarcasm intended" statement. Just goes to show the sad state of affairs within this airline. The employee/employer relationship has been systematically reduced to a contractual battle between a vendor and buyer, where there is no trust, no goodwill, no prisoners taken and no loyality.

It just makes you wonder whether it's a desired or unintended consequence of the management style.

[zygot44]

The employee/employer relationship has been systematically reduced to a contractual battle between a vendor and buyer, where there is no trust, no goodwill, no prisoners taken and no loyality.

And apparently no honesty either:confused:

"today a formal complaint of perjury was lodged with the Commissioner of Police in HK by an officer of the court against Messrs. Rhodes and Kroutil of Cathay Pacific Airways."

[Glass Half Empty]

well if is true about NR and SK you ought to make that a subject title on its own and give it the prominence it deserves.

[Liam Gallagher]

The way you have written your post indicates a quote from a written source. Is there some substance to your so-called quote or is this a vision from a dream?

If the latter, tread carefully. Although being a rumour network, the 2 gentlemen to which you have referred have just learnt how to sucessfully prosecute a defamation case.:eek:

[simplex]

the 2 gentlemen to which you have referred have just learnt how to sucessfully prosecute a defamation case.

Didn't they unsuccessfully defend a defamation case??

[Scoreboard]

Heard from a connected source that even though the company could appeal.....an appeal looks very unlikely or if undertaken would be potentially doomed to failure.

An appeal it appears will have a high degree of success if its on a contention of a point of law, but in the final judgement of this case this didnt figure, as it was a judges opinion.

But Cathay cant stand to lose.

Scoreboard

[4 driver]

What are the estimated legal costs that the company has to bear? Any ideas?
Might be more than the judgement?

[Four Holer Roller]

As reported on this thread:

"today a formal complaint of perjury was lodged with the Commissioner of Police in HK by an officer of the court against Messrs. Rhodes and Kroutil of Cathay Pacific Airways."

I seem to recall Ken Barley and Ron Davies making similar "inaccurate" statements under oath in the UK hearings.

Memories are long, as is the arm of the law!

[WeakForce]

What are the estimated legal costs that the company has to bear? Any ideas?
Might be more than the judgement? You could ask the DFO because he would know. The problem as always ---- he won't tell the truth.

[zygot44]

Word on the street is that his legal costs are about to increase alarmingly.

[jonathon68]

18-20m HKG is what I heard......

[rick.shaw]

Despite what some may think, I believe that CX will back NR to the end - no matter what the cost. He has saved the company 100's of millions of dollars over the years with his delaying tactics and shabby treatment of those under him. This is in major part due to his (mis)managers backing him into a (legal) corner on many issues.

Sadly, all this legal wrangling has cost the company many millions more, in my opinion. But that doesn't matter, right? A compliant workforce in itself is worth a fortune. I've said it before, but what the heck, I'll say it again. The only way to get CX to the table and/or comply with our contracts is going to be through the courts. Their war chest(i.e. our profit share and 13th month) is huge - make no mistake. Be prepared for many more expensive, protracted and very public court cases. We'll get what's coming to us - just might take a while, that's all.

Interesting that he sees the HKAOA letters as being inflammatory. But the fact is they are merely spelling out the bitter-sweet truth about the current state of affairs.