QWI or QFI?

[laserfiring]

I am a 1st tourist pilot nearing the end of my tour. I am now faced with the dilemma of my next posting. Should I opt for the FJ OCU and be a Stick Nudging Trimmer, or for the Glass eating role of the QWI? I have heard that they are both valuable members of the community. Apparantly there is also another option where I can do neither and be a Psuedo QFI and sit in the back to allow front seaters to log sim IF. ;)

[BEagle]

It rather depends upon whether you want a marketable skill which you could use in later life. As a QFI though, it would be very surprising if your first QFI tour would be on frontline types - more likely on Hawk or Tucano. As a QWI you could analyse film/video, talk esoterically about the radar and do a lot of rear seat convex rides; in later years you could work for some defence contractor. As a TI/'pseudo' QFI you would merely be asked by any future employer why you weren't selected for CFS or why, if you wanted to instruct, you didn't apply for CFS in the first place.
Go to CFS, get a Hawk tour out of the way, ask for EF and then you could fly/instruct on that TFN??

[FJJP]

Agree with Beagle. Go for QFI - you can do QWI later if you want, but at least you will have a very marketable qualification for later. Another thought - considered going TP after a couple of FJ tours?

[Alf Aworna]

Sound like a QFI if you can't decide! Seriously the double Q tick is a very rare commodity, your first choice is what you will end up doing. To defend the dark side, QWIing is a lot of fun as well and you get involved with the tactics and op employment/development of the ac rather than doing endless QFI checks. TI- don't bother you'll just be a glorified JP. Everyone worth their salt has to work on the OCU or a CFS unit at some stage, the choice is yours.

[Noddy Staltern]

Looking further afield, the QFI tick is recognised and respected by the airlines, should [when?] you decide to leave. The QWI tick will be of little use then.

[Alf Aworna]

The fact remains that there's not really much call for QWIs at Linton. If you want to stay flying front line fast jet ac then get a QWI tick, otherwise pop off to CFS and start phoning the airlines by the sound of it. End of first tour is a bit soon to start getting all cynical and materialistic. ;)

[Qwin T Senshall]

QWI is not a badge, it's a vocation.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

It all depends on where you see your career going. If you see yourself staying in and wanting to stay on the front line, then QWI is the way ahead. Invariably you will get picked up and also involved with the more esoteric tactical stuff which can be very rewarding.

If, on the other hand, you decide to go QFI you can expect to go back to the training world before returning to the front line. It's also a reasonable qual to stick on a CV, but don't expect it to open too many doors in the airline world. It can be v. rewarding particularly when training youngsters. It can also be v frustrating when trying to retrain hairy old nose gunners!! Either way ..... get a "Q" tick rather than a TI if you can.

[laserfiring]

Thanks Guys,

I've since spoken to my sqn QFI who tells me that if he was sharp enough to of been a QWI, he would of gone for it. My choice is clear.

[ 09 July 2001: Message edited by: laserfiring ]

[Alf Aworna]

Laserfiring you have chosen well. Best of luck.

[Jonny Ware]

Are you arrogant, self opinionated and overly aggressive? If so, then become a QWI. And wear a sad badge (you sound like an F-3 Pumper).

But seriously, if you are a level-headed, even tempered individual, the QWI vocation may not be for you.

If you have any plans for life outside the RAF, then QFI is the only rational choice.

[212man]

Not Jonny Ware of MASUAS (84-87) fame? If so how's trix

[Big Dog's]

Have a bad experience with a QWI as a child did you Jonny? Unusual to have your actual name on PPRUNE.

Be a QWI and a QFI etc. Not sure either of them matter in civvi street unless you intend to work for BAe.

[UnderPowered]

The RAF's job is to wage war in the air. The QWI is, invariably, the chap(ess) who leads his/her part of the RAF into war (this opinion taken from AOC 1 Gp at Coningsby about a week ago). Want to do something significant in the big scheme of things? The choice is obvious.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

212 man ..... don't be fooled!! Every man jack at Bruggen was Jonny Ware when it came to taxis and pizza deliveries - I think the gentleman concerned may be using the same ruse...... :D

[Busta]

laserfiring,

QWI not QFI, no contest.

Few things matter very much, most things don't matter at all.

[Poison Arrow]

You could always be both. QTIs at Valley are now QFIs, apparently, and a Hawk QWI tick after 12 months if you know your arse from your elbow.
The weather in Anglesey is sooooo good, and a Hawk QWI badge is always well respected by those front line chappies...... :D

[Firestreak]

It's got to be QFI.

After all, QWIs and green apples give you the sh*ts.

[NoseGunner]

Jonny ware - I think with a name like laser firing it's not too likely that he is an F3 guy so chill! (or maybe it's a double bluff??)
I agree with you about the badge though. Why do they do that? I've even noticed F3 EWIs are starting to wear a similar but green badge. Weird.
On the QWI/QFI debate, I think more consideration should be given to the middle of the road QTI thing (yes it is an official Q now). As Poison Arrow pointed out - some
strange stuff has happened at Valley making all QTIs into QFIs or something (any QTIs at Valley feel free to give us the full gen).

Looking further ahead - they are looking at having no QFIs at all for Eurofighter, although I don't think they'll get away with going that far, their numbers will be limited. Also QWIs will almost certainly just be the weapons specialists (what a strange idea!) rather than the "I know everything, can do everything and never make a mistake" types that they are at the moment.

If you are looking at a QWI course for your type but want to end up on Eurofighter, ensure that there will be a glut of QWIs for your type or it will make it very difficult for you to get away with all your handy skills. Additionally , if you are a bomber type, then you're skills will not be required on Eurofighter for quite some time yet.

If it's a Eurofighter OCU job that you're looking for then they are just looking for an instructional qualification (any) for the majority of staff. If it's a front line (airshows/exercises only) job then you're best chance is to become an abo!

I was in your situation a few years ago and the thought of Valley (and even going back to the hawk) put me right off any thoughts of QFI - I believe Linton slots (aargh - tucano) are also hard to come by for FJ guys ((but not impossible).

As a final thought maybe it would be appropriate to spare a thought for the pilot poster, such a thoroughly nice, down to earth and ever helpful chap that he is.

[BEagle]

Please explain WTFIH at Y-fali if all the staff pilots are being assigned a 'Q' prefix?

Back in the days of yore, we had QFIs who had served their time learning how to instruct - they did the convex flying, IRTs etc. We had PAIs, IWIs, QBIs and the rest who all became re-designated as Qualified Weapons Instructors; at TWU they taught weaponeering and did all the cine assessment before clearing us to go and strafe, rocket and bomb Pembrey into oblivion. The rest of the pilots on the TWU staffs weren't qualified anythings, these were 'Tactics Instructors' who didn't have any specialised qualifications but who led pairs or 4-ship SAPs, towed cine trips, led some doggers etc.

So what precisely are the qualifications of a 'cutie' or whatever they're calling themselves? And just how are they earning their Qualified Flying Instructor status? Do they hold the same B2 status as any novice 'real' QFI? Please elaborate!!

[ 14 July 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

[Poison Arrow]

BEagle, I'm suprised you didn't know about something! First time?? (J!) :eek:

QTI was introduced to Hawk TWU mates about 4 years ago to give them a 'Q' qual to take to civvy street and acknowledge they actually now instruct rather than just assess/criticise; and more importantly act as an incentive to recruit to the sunshine paradise Isle.
It was preposed that QTIs would make a good sqn QFI, able to do annual check rides and things, but not the basic convex flying(sounds good).
56 (F3 OCU) also took on the new shiney badge for the non-QFIs to give it some front-line cred. The rest of the OCUs gaffed it and so it died a slow and painful death and gave no cred at all.

Last year another guy got promoted by changing the decision. This time TWU QTIs were changed to QFIs, for the same reason as above.
Here endeth the lesson. No doubt someone else knows more to the story, if they wish to contribute.......

[BEagle]

Sorry, but this sounds like yet more acceptance of diminished standards. The 'Q'TI sounds to be a fraudulent concept; the idea of re-appointing them as 'Q'FIs without a CFS course is even worse. In the VC10 world we have occasionally had FIs who were not 'Q'FIs thanks to the legacy of the old 'training captain' era. One or two proved their worth, others had neither the knowledge nor instructional ability to each 'how' to do anything - it was a question of "Do an ILS" followed by "This was wrong, that was wrong etc, etc" - no real instruction, just poorly qualified criticism.

Why are we allowing people to bypass an established system of excellence (CFS) in this way? What is it hoping to achieve?

[ 15 July 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

[Tuckunder]

CFS is without doubt a very usable qualification outside. QFI plus QHI even more so! Its a bit of a yawn but if you crack A2 or even A1 some contractors in the Middle East pay you loads of dosh. On a more serious note, I really enjoyed my 10 years instructing for HM. Good luck!

[Min Decent Ht]

QTIs do a CFS course!
First, a 2 week Ground Instructional Training Course (nice acronym).
Then 4 months of flying with CFS acredited instructors before being let lose on real students. Only then do they learn the art of arrogance, ridicule and intimidation!

[BEagle]

..............so when do they do the full CFS groundschool then? Or has some 1* ex-bona jet mate decided that his pointy-heads are above such things as well?

This is a decision made for pure expediency and merely serves to erode accepted professional standards.

So in future life, the question will be "Were you a real QFI or just a Hawk FI-of-convenience?"

[Tonkenna]

BEagle me old mate.

When I was there (CFS) there was much talk of binning most of the ground school. As I won the Top Hat I would not be sad to see it go, though I did learn a few things. The QTIs did all the instructional stuff, but to be honest the best stuff came once on the flying course.

Tonks :)

[Cooperman]

I just hate to see QFIs get upset, especially when it's BEagle. Bless.

The facts:

The Hawk QTIs do the CFS groundschool.
They do A CFS approved course on a CFS-designated sqn that employs at least one CFS agent, who's not very experienced, only about 3000 hrs Hawk, oh, and he started out as a QFI (obviously saw the light).

Let's face it, QFIs teach S&L, turning, IF and some formation. So why are they always so b^&&^y high and mighty about their instructional skills?

I have never understood the (FJ) sqns' desire for QFIs. The students they get are 'winged'. They only need 'type conversion'. What the sqns actually need are QTIs...guys who can teach (as approved by CFS blah blah blah) tactics, not just from the same cockpit but across a formation...yes, that's what they do folks, and without the aid of a safety net.

So you QFI types (I should say brothers since I too got my QFI rubber stamp) chill out, we all think your'e great (especially you BEagle), after all, it's guys like you who got us to where we are now.

I like trimming,
I like trimming,
I like trimming
and I like to trim.....


.........but you're still gits.

Moosa Aswayita

:rolleyes:

[Swingwing]

Surely it doesn't matter -the system needs both. In the Antipodean air force, the FCI (Fighter Combat Instructor = QWI) has, without doubt, greater prestige and kudos within the organisation. As an FJ trimmer myself, I acknowledge their greater tactical prestige, and their enormous value to the organisation. They will develop the tactics, and lead the first four ship into the war (if we ever have to put aside beating you lot at every sport on the planet and go to a real one!). Meanwhile, I'll still be teaching circuits. So, if you want to be known as the "sharpest knife in the drawer", put in twelve hour days and have the system burn you out by the time you are thirty, then go for QWI. If, however, you don't mind not being at the top of the tactical tree, you want a skill that opens up a much wider variety of posting and post forces jobs, and you don't want to spend six months of the year away, then being a QFI has a lot going for it.
Either way, IMHO, you can't lose. At least you have some options other than flying a desk!

Regards from down under. I'm off to watch a video of Wallabies v Lions again, before the cricket starts!
BTW It's the middle of winter here - CAVOK, 24deg C. Applications being received now from QWI's and QFI's!

SW

[BEagle]

If you haven't done the basic groundschool, how in h*ck you'll ever do your A2 theory is going to prove interesting!

or is that going down the pan of expediency as well? Harrier mate - oh, you must be have been an A2 at birth!

[Bus14]

If you're staying in the mob, then fast jet QWI has to be more fun than fast jet QFI. If you're leaving to go civvie, take it from me, no one gives a toss what Q you had. At my employer, whether or not you would be pleasant company on a night Tenerife counts for more than most of the CV items.

I filled out my CFS application under duress, in the bosses office (after binning a few), and put 'non volunteer' in red top and bottom, back and front. I think they got the hint, because I didn't go to CFS!

However, I did become a TWU TI (again non volunteer, I just wanted to stay on the front line), but the cunning plan fell apart when I was short toured just before my QWI course started.

A quick look around the TREs (sim and line training captains) at my present company, who are very pro ex RAF, shows not a single QFI or QWI. We havn't got any TPs either, but I would endorse that as an interesting route to follow, and with more cred outside.

To underline the differences between mil and civvie, in the RAF I was only interested in flying. Outside I also genuinely get satisfaction from instructing and examining, and am now a TRE and TRI(E) doing everything from line training new pilots to teaching and examining new instrutors on the A320.

As there is an ever present risk of being misunderstood on PPRuNe, let me be quite clear that I am not getting at QFIs or QWIs, but neither counts for much outside.

Apologies for intruding on the mil forum, but even 12 years after leaving, and with absolutely no regrets, I still find the quality of debate and banter in this forum far exceeds the drivel on the others.

So just remember, you can always tell a harrier pilot, but you can't tell him much.

[DESPERADO]

If you enjoy the frontline life & wish to stay there, there is only one way to go. If you want to be the chap/ess leading your sqn sausage side rather than the fella who works out the take-off spds and makes the t 'n' toast during the planning, then I reiterate, there is only one way to go. Having done it though, a word of caution, you need to be 100% committed coz its bloody hard work (not just during the cse but for the years after it).
Obviously in Beagle's world there is little need for QWI so I understand his sentiments if not agree with them. On the FJ frontline you will have a real influence on the way your Sqn operates in peacetime as well as during conflict (not PC to call'em wars).

I must admit, I haven't done CFS groundschool, but I understand that you get to use up to 4 colours of pen (including red) and also colour in the eyes of the word "LOOKOUT", sounds exciting.
If happiness is a TAC to ILS, then you belong at Linton or Valley and I hope you enjoy it. I'm sure being a QFI has its rewards, but I am of the opinion that if you are a FJ mate, and you have a choice (and few are that lucky) then sqn QWI is the best job in the world bar none.
If like aussie swingwing fella you live to trim then FJ frontline may not be the best place for you. As for getting the QFI tick so that it helps when you leave, what kind of a philosophy is that? take that to its logical conclusion and ask for a transfer Tristars (no offence meant to Tristar chaps, couldn't do it without you and all that etc etc). No offence meant to anyone as I haven't been able to eat glass and pee napalm for a while.

[Cacciatore]

As an FJ QWI (retd) and a PTC QFI (UAS) there's no contest which is the one to be if you're young and want to get job satisfaction in the RAF. As for QTIs, 56 have quite a different idea from the Hawk QTI thing and it is a structured system whereby someone starts as a B2 etc. like the CFS bit. Guys do a proper work-up starting with CFS groundschool and both pilots and navs become QTIs. There is a CFS agent (me at one time) on 56 who runs the thing (not a QFI but a QWI) and awards the ticks. Innsworth regard the A2 QTI as being potentially a squadron training officer but it isn't a cheap replacement for QWIs, nor is it a back door QFI course for the pilots. :)

[Cooperman]

So, for 'quite a bit different', read 'exactly the same'.

Hawk QTIs do CFS groundschool (2, not 4 weeks, since prop theory etc was regarded as irrelevant). They also climb up the chain of B2, B1 and A2 etc.

And for BEagle's benefit, the A2 groundschool is just as lengthy, nauseating and tedious as the QFI one, it just concentrates on more relevant (to QTIs) stuff.....stall in manoeuvre, corner speed etc.

Very interested (but not surprised) to see that the type of Q appears to be irrelevant on the outside. Ever since I joined the RAF guys have said that QFI is 'your meal ticket outside'. Needless to say my choice to go QTI/QWI was based on the desire for more interesting flying (my opinion) and my doubts about the 'meal ticket' theory.

I would also disagree that the QFI tick opens up more doors..perhaps to PTC posts, but a lot of exchange tours require (on paper at least) a QWI tick. There are 3 Hawk QWIs that I can think of that are on overseas exchange, 2 on front line types.

At the end of the day though, some guys get the chance to choose their path, others don't. The main point is that it doesn't really matter. The majority of folks enjoy their 'I' tour(s), whatever the specialisation.

Moosa Aswayita! ;)