View Full Version : Scimitar F1 LABS load

7th Nov 2009, 21:18
Having enjoyed the sight and sound of Lossie Scimitars in my late teens I am assembling information about the a/c in it's nuclear role . I know they carried a 2000lb Red Beard nuclear weapon . I have found plenty of pics of the actual weapon but :
1) I've searched the net and can't find any pictures showing which pylon it would have been hung on or what the rest of the loadout comprised . Would a practice shape have been coloured differently to the standard olive green with yellow bands I see in the photos ?

2) I know that a LABS attack involved a 3.5 - 4G pull up / release and over the top to roll out level in the dive but I'm not sure if the aircraft would have been pulling G at the moment of release ?
Richard Bach implies this was the case when describing a similar attack profile in an F84 i.e pulling 4 G and "Wham" at the moment of release .
I imagine this might cause some interesting asymetric moments in a Scimitar and wondered how it felt and how the a/c was balanced / controlled for the manouevre?
Any help gratefullly accepted .

7th Nov 2009, 21:29
The g was still on at the moment of release, which occurred at about 45 degrees. Dont remember much asymetric problem, but it was a long time ago.....

8th Nov 2009, 11:12
Thanks for that - means there might be a bit of vapour over the wings to liven things up a little .
Still looking for info ref the load configuration if anyone out there can recall?

8th Nov 2009, 18:53
There is a Redbeard casing at the Explosion! Museum (http://www.explosion.org.uk/frameset.html) in Gosport, Hampshire (unfortunately the only photograph of it available from their website is in the entrance part of the virtual tour). They may also have more info; as may the Royal Air Force museum or Fleet Air Arm museum

8th Nov 2009, 20:39
The Scimitar only had four hardpoints, if the shape was on one inboard then the opposite one would usually have a droptank.

8th Nov 2009, 21:20
4G & Myc
Thanks for the help - will opt for Redbeard / one tank on the inner pylons and no outboard pylons fitted. (If I opt for a Redbeard scene) .
I kind of like the Sidewinder and inboard tanks fit myself but may pick more than one version - plus a four Bullpup fit has it's attractions even if the missile itself was I believe "fun" but useless.

9th Nov 2009, 01:40
May have misunderstood your last, but the four pylons are always fitted. There is not necessarily anything attached.

david parry
9th Nov 2009, 07:49
Pylons showing Stbd Side http://usera.ImageCave.com/scouse/img015(1).jpg

9th Nov 2009, 10:19
Thanks 4G and DP - will opt for empty outer pylons .
Thought I'd seen pics with clean wings so assumed they could be removed to suit .

Load Toad
9th Nov 2009, 14:01
You've checked this site...? http://www.******************************/scimitar/index.php

India Four Two
9th Nov 2009, 15:06

Go to is.gd URL Shortener - The Shortest URLs Around (http://www.is.gd) and make a shortened, encoded version of the URL you are trying to post. That should get around the PPRuNe URL censor :)

9th Nov 2009, 21:24
Pylons can of course be removed but generally left on for operational squadrons.

10th Nov 2009, 07:33
You might prefer a different store: R.Moore,RN and Nuclear Weapons,Harwood,2001,P190: Scimitar/Sea Vixen FAW.2 were Red Beard-cleared August,1960 for catapult launch, but not for arrested landing. (Wiki's entry for US Little Boy): “extreme danger of a misfire. A simple crash could drive the “bullet” into the “target” and release lethal radiation (or) even a full nuclear detonation (danger) even greater over water (if it) entered the fail safe system, it would be shorted out, possibly leading to detonation (RB) also suffered from this flaw”. Moore,P140 has 3 RB at sea in 1960 "for emergency use only", with RN agitated over an unplanned event! Then 5 in 1962; deleted from Scimitar with Buccaneer S.1 arrival in 1963 (internal carriage).

10th Nov 2009, 08:37
Interesting - a "once and for real only " scenario for the live rounds! Unless there was a friendly landbase in range in the event of peace suddenly breaking out the pilot would have shed a few beads of sweat working out how to get rid of the damn thing without starting WW III !
Might still opt for a practice/test drop though - I know they did run a few . I know they practiced the LABS manouevre - having seen one pull up from low level right in front of our house one day. Great sight , oil streaked , white panel lined belly made an impression , along with the noise .

11th Nov 2009, 20:55
Did some deck landing trials with a shape, including an arrested landing. It stayed on ok. All our labs exercises just used a shape.

25th Sep 2010, 21:34
Can't remember if I ever posted the final painting that resulted from this query - anyway - here it is .
Comments and crits welcome .
24" x 18" Acrylic on canvas - depicts a practice Red Beard drop somehwere remote - like Faraid Head or similar .
Just a bit of fun to remember an impressive aircraft that made my last two years at school interesting whenever they started dropping into the circuit round Dufftown (probably for a run at Rosehearty range )

Sleeve Wing
25th Sep 2010, 22:34
Hi Neil,

>I know they practiced the LABS manouevre - <

Yep, we practiced all weapon deliveries.

Memory's a bit jaded after all this time but remember carrying out LABS attacks at Garvie Island, Kyle of Durness, up near Cape Wrath, in the early sixties.

This wasn't for long as the role was moved to the Bucc., the Mk 2 being a much more capable aeroplane. A number of Scimitars were by this time utilised for 'buddy" tanking and the ignominious demise of the Scimitar was on the wall. Sad end for a great pilots' aeroplane.

The circuits near Dufftown were indeed for Rosehearty, left hand ones, but this was usually for conventional ground attack profiles with 3in. rockets and bombs. The target itself was off the coast and consisted of a couple of concentric circles of moored 40 gal. fuel drums. Quite often we were watched here by Russian "trawlers".............

Good days..............


26th Sep 2010, 09:34
Many thanks Sleeve - I well remember the Scimitars dropping in round our school at the top of the Rosehearty circuit . Sea Hawks also used it regularly . A Scimitar was like a great white shark dropping in amongst them!
Looks like I got the location for the LABS run about right then.
Would probably have been more accurate to depict it over the sea , running at Garvie Island but that would have made a boring backdrop - bit of artistic licence used there !
Since it's only destined for my study wall I can live with it!

26th Sep 2010, 09:49
Since it's only destined for my study wall I can live with it!

Sorry to butt-in, but I feel you do yourself an injustice - you have talent.

26th Sep 2010, 12:36
Thanks diginagain - didn't mean to come across as being too modest - just that this one is a bit of self indulgence .

26th Sep 2010, 13:28
Then you're lucky in having the skill and talent to do so. I'll just have to wait for "Lynx Inverted over Bessbrook in a Gale" to come out in the painting-by-numbers series.

Sleeve Wing
26th Sep 2010, 20:57
You're dead right, diginagain.
Great talent, lovely picture. Don't worry about the artistic licence.
Got the perspectives just right, even the release profile - maybe a little more anhedral on the tailplane ..........! But who wants it to be perfect ?? You ought to show it, Neil.
Thanks for a lovely memory.