aussie tiger

[w_ocker]

Well, they've finally decided. After years of delays, reshuffles, back flips, postponements and the like, we have finally decided on the frame for Air 87. AND ITS THE WRONG BLOODY FRAME!! We have chosen not Apache or Viper, but the bl**dy Tiger. None of us can remember the last time we actually worked with the French (other than defending them a few times) We do know that we need a frame that is marinised, proven and can operate with the US system. I dont even know any Aussie helo drivers who can speak french! And the reason we got it? Eurocopter promised to build a factory in australia! The thing I'm most upset about is my own naivity in believing that the decision would be based on operational capability and effectiveness rather than creating a few jobs for the civis. Then again, there is an election coming up. Anyone else have any thoughts on the issue? I know it hasnt brought any glee around the trenches in my neck of the woods. :(

[ChristopherRobin]

"we need a frame that is marinised"

well I got news for you mate, Apache ain't.

"I dont even know any Aussie helo drivers who can speak french!"

- But I bet they can speak english. Are you sure that you're basing your analysis on "operational capability and effectiveness" or is that a hint of Jingoism?

How do you know it won't be any good? Do you know for a fact it will be incompatible with Apache messaging?

And let's face it, it was always going to be about politics wasn't it? Australia's made friends enough with the US what with F-111, F-18 and options on Global Hawk. Just think of all those untapped markets and potential concessions in the EU!

[Low and Slow]

Didn't the Australians operate Mirage III's for some years. Mirage is French, isn't it?

What exactly is wrong with Tiger?? I hear a lot of emotion. I dont see a lot of ops analysis.

[2 TWU]

:p And, aren't at least some of the RAAF VIP fleet Falcons which at the last count were made in France?

[Jackonicko]

Apart from the up-engined A129, there would seem to be major problems with all the AIR 87 contenders.

Apache: Perceived as unreliable, and as being difficult to keep serviceable and not compatible with shipboard operations.

AH-1Z: Already in trouble integration-wise, and perceived as being based on a Vietnam era airframe. Was there also a fear of repeating the Seasprite experience, Litton-wise?

Tiger: An unknown quantity and perceived as being lightweight and lacking 'robustness'.

Wonder why A129 and Rooivalk weren't looked at more seriously? :cool:

[ 13 August 2001: Message edited by: Jackonicko ]

[oldpinger]

W_ocker

Could it be that the reason you are P'ed off is that finally Aust have bought something that isn't the biggest/fastest/shiniest and a bit more use than the -open plains of europe- tank killer the Apache is. (Didn't think you could get many tank divisions rolling across Arnhem ,land or kakadu....)

I heard Apache doesn't like dust as well...

[John Eacott]

At least they know they can walk away from the Tiger after a bingle..... :p

http://www.defence-data.com/avalon/tigop.jpg

[EmpireOne]

I remember seeing an article in a newspaper about Aussie Tiger shortly before it unceremoniously pranged near Townsville. The headline was "Tiger struts it's stuff". A few weeks later I saw an amusingly edited copy in a loadmaster crewroom where the headline read, "Tiger stuffs it's struts" http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/blush.gif
Anyway, while we're talking about ADF decisions that might be considered slightly odd, how about the AAAvn decision to discard their Squirrels at ADFHS in favour of Kiowa as the army's ab initio trainer! :eek:
Sometimes I wonder whether the ADF really has any interest in properly modernising it's army. Aussie Tiger aside, what about their ageing F-111s, UH-1Hs, Leopard A1s, 105 Field Guns, M113 APCs, second-hand LPA's, etc?

[josephfeatherweight]

Original Air 87 requirement: Reconnaisance Helicopter to replace Kiowa.
Transcript between Army big wig buyer and possible supplier.
Army Big Wig: What we need is a replacement for our Kiowa.
Supplier: Well, that's true, but you can have this shiny new model with whopping huge missiles and a big machine gun.
Army Big Wig: Wow, whopping huge missiles! Does the gun make lots of noise?
Supplier: Guaranteed!
Army Big Wig: And do the missiles blow things up with a big bang?
Supplier: Absolutely!
Army Big Wig: It is a little more than what we were willing to spend...
Supplier: Now, now, remember the big missiles and the noisy gun.
Army Big Wig: Sold...
:D

[w_ocker]

emotive and jingoistic...yes. sorry about that. having a bit of a vent. i agree. apache is not the right frame either. and absolutely, a tank killer is not what we need. what would have been good would be a type that can operate in marine or desert environment for extended period if necessary (ie days without major servicings), giving good reliability and performance, with suitable comms and data collecting/processing capability and, if possible, as many common parts as possible with aircraft already in service. my vote went to viper. I know, old-looking airfrane and - god help us - skids! However, it is wet-constructed (marinised), runs T700s (as does S70) has a lineage that has proven its capability in hot/high/dusty AOs (AH-1W). The parts and trg compatability with UH-1Y would make that type most attractive for the new lift sqn or a replacement for op spt UH-1H (which I believe will be necessary). So, appologies for the rantings. I know that no type would have "ticked all the boxes", but I do feel that tiger was certainly not the most suitable or desirable. (and personally, I dont give a damn which looks the most sexy or can fly the flashest loops). ;)

[Cardinal Puff]

Jacko

Spoke to Tim the Test Pilot (in SA) and he reckons the Rooivalk not an altogether untalented box of spiders. Wonder why it wasn't considered...... Nothing to do with rugby I hope. :D

[alphaball]

Euro-Copter..... sounds Ok, but lets just pray we don't get Euro-Fighter!!

[Megaton]

So when the F111s and F-18s are lifexed your choices for replacements will almost certainly be JSF and EF2000 respectively. Unless you'd consider the Rafale but then that's French. Gripen - Swedish F16. F22 - dream on. Su-?? - politically unacceptable and probably not easily interoperable. So there you have it - defence procurement can't be that difficult after all!

[Jackonicko]

Pray it's not Eurofighter?

Why? Been got at, or believe LM's marketing bollocks?

Typhoon is the best option for anyone wanting a genuinely MR tactical fighter unless they can afford F-22, or NEED STOVL, unless they want larger numbers of something very much less capable, like JAS39 or F-16/50-60. Rafale costs more and isn't as good, JSF will probably cost more and you won't get the offsets or industrial participation (and as a BVR fighter, it's not as good) - and you'll have to wait years for it. F-22 is unaffordable. For once, BAE and EF have a winner, don't dismiss it until you know more about it.

And that's a genuinely cynical, non BAE friendly journo's opinion.

[Megaton]

And, much as it pains me to say it, with BAe's manufacturing capability in Oz you have a much better chance of an manufacturing offset than with any of the other options. And, of course, Australia is already involved in ASRAAM. And Australia is already building Hawks. Apologies for the grammar but I think the point is made!

[josephfeatherweight]

Yes, but will BAe be able to supply spare parts? They can't for the Hawk...
:confused:

[Ray Dar]

Eurocopter has a fairly big presence here in Oz and the modern design of the tiger as opposed to the Vietnam era aircraft should not be sneezed at.
As for speaking French we have had the Squirrell for 17 years and depending on your view of it, it has down a mighty job for what it was used for, including it's stint at sea.
I am with Empire 1, my prefernece for the basic trainer was always the Squirrell, a very forgiving aircraft for a basic trainer.

PS Empire 1 are you ex oz FAA ?

[EmpireOne]

Ray Dar,

Don't know what you mean by 'ex oz FAA' but I don't think so. If you've had anything to do with S-70A-9s in a certain city in NQ we may know each other(?).

EO

[200psi]

Any word on how the Tiger will be crewed.
Pilot/Observer; Pilot/Pilot;

[Chinook]

Oh dear,

Imagine my surprise sitting here in the UK for a wee ehile, to find out AAAvn has bought the Tiger!!

I like most old gunship drivers was disappointed to see Rooivalk drop off the list of contenders but it wasn't surprising. We did see the Tiger prototype in TVL a few years ago, I have wonderful memories of arrogant Frenchmen who ignored my range control orders, attemptred to depart the range without being checked clear of ordnance and subsequently crashed, unfortunately with a friend of mine on board.

I sincerely hope all who are involved in the project keep the Frogs honest, and remember that the capability is more than acft types and weapons systems: Spares, techs, mission planning tools, and interoperability with the customer should be the focus, not the aircraft.

Having said that, you'd have to hold a gun to my head to come back to gunships ...

Long live the Chinook!!

[VSQUARED]

Hey chinook, if you are here in the UK drop me an email. I am up in Bonnie Scotland. I think you know now who I am. We know each other from YBTL and YSCB.