UK Commits 45 Commando to Afghan War

[ORAC]

B****y wonderful.. . . .The US refused to commit troops to peace keeping operations because of the risk to the peacekeepers of revenge attacks whilst the rest of their forces were conducting combat operations.. .. .We now end up in the situation of having 1500 with the ISAF and 1700 in combat in the same country. This could get nasty.. .. .BBC:. . <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk_politics/newsid_1879000/1879679.stm" target="_blank">BBC</a> . .. .Commandos head to Afghanistan. .. .The UK is to send an infantry battle group to Afghanistan in what Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon called the biggest British troop deployment since the Gulf War. . .In response to a US request the battle group, which is built around 45 Commando Royal Navy Marines, is heading to Afghanistan to battle the remnants of the Taleban and al-Qaeda forces. . .. .Mr Hoon said: "This a powerful force - total up to 1,700 strong." . .. .1,700 UK troops . .45 Royal Marine Commando . .29 Commando Royal Artillery . .59 Independent Commando Squadron . .Royal Engineers and Royal Logistics Regiment . .Chinnok helicopters from RAF 27 Squadron . .It also includes three Chinook helicopters of the RAF's 27 Squadron. . .. .The British contingent will join a US-led brigade. . .. ."These troops are being deployed to Afghanistan to take part in war fighting operations," he said. . .. ."We will be asking them to risk their lives...they may suffer casualties." . .. .'Continuing threat' . .. .Parts of 45 Commando are already in the region aboard HMS Ocean, Mr Hoon said, adding that the remaining companies were in a state of readiness in Arbroath. . .. .The defence secretary said that al-Qaeda continued to pose a threat to countries including the UK. . .. .Mr Hoon's Conservative opposite number, Bernard Jenkin, said that his party would back the deployment - although he indicated that the announcement had come as something of a surprise. . .. .A 1,500-strong security force of British troops are currently serving with the 4,500-strong International Security and Assistance Force (ISAF). . .. .The new deployment of troops will be involved in combat. . .. .The Defence Secretary told MPs that a German unit would formally assume command from the UK of the subordinate headquarters of ISAF in Kabul. . .. .Positive talks . .. .The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has said that negotiations are still ongoing for Turkey to take over Britain's primary role in ISAF. . .. .Mr Hoon told MPs that talks between Turkey, the UK and the US had been "extremely positive". . .. . . .Mr Hoon was making a Commons statement. . . .In January, Prime Minister Tony Blair welcomed Afghanistan's leader Hamid Karzai to Downing Street but stopped short of offering more troops. . .. .Mr Karzai has kept up his appeal for a significantly expanded military presence in Afghanistan to help prevent renewed fighting between Afghan warlords. . .. .General Tommy Franks, head of America's Central Command said the overall mission in Afghanistan was far from over. . .. .There has continued to be hard-fought battles between US forces and some remaining Taleban and al-Qaeda strongholds.. . . . <small>[ 19 March 2002, 14:55: Message edited by: ORAC ]</small>

[Big Green Arrow]

Please let's not forget that where 45 and Ocean go so will the Junglies of all types.

[Flatus Veteranus]

Good luck and God Speed to 45 Commando.. .. .Can anyone remind me when we last deployed British troops on operations beyond the reach of British offensive air support? At crunch-time can allies always be relied on, or might there be a conflict of interest? A dangerous precedent? . . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[Jackonicko]

Let's hope someone's re-examining the sending of Tornados or Jags to a 'Northern 'istan' or to India....

[Big Green Arrow]

Here Here JHC

[Muff Coupling]

1700 troops."powerful COMBAT force"..er, well not quite Hoonie.. .. .1/3 Combat - 45 Cdo. .1/3 Combat Support - Eng Sqn & Art Bty . .1/3 Combat Service Support - Cdo Log Sp Sqn RLC. .. .Oh, and probably about 200 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> of that lot is RAF personnel to Fly and support 3 Wokkas?. .. .SofS Def needs to move to Education...if the Army is 8500 under strength..why look for a cut of 1500 under SDR 4? Ah I see, remove units from the Order of Battle...and we are now over strength. Sorry, my fault.I missed that one! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> . .. .The talks with Turkey are "extremely positive" for them! They want paying (big bucks by all accounts) by the US and UK for taking on ISAF. Not a NATO thingy apparently!. .. .This deployment has all the trademarks of a cluster!!

[Brian Dixon]

To each and every service person off to Afghanistan:. .Good Luck, stay safe, kick ar$e.. .. .There are plenty of people who are extremely proud of you. I'm one of 'em.. .. .Thoughts and prayers etc to you and yours.

[A Civilian]

Does anyone think that this is a really bad idea. Its good that were sending some of the top units in the british army their but sending in troops not used to mountainous terrain, with all that heavy kit 6,000 foot above sea level without the americans resource advantage, it can't be good.

[cobaltfrog]

How many SK4 and lynx AH7 let alone GZ's do you know that can operate at 10,000 in the Stan? Answer: not a lot!! Therefore some would say that the Junglie role is somewhat limited in temperatures of 19 degrees and rising! OH and CIVVY THE ROYAL MARINES ARE NOT BRITISH ARMY!!!. . . . <small>[ 20 March 2002, 23:30: Message edited by: cobaltfrog ]</small>

[Gash Handlin]

erm civvy.... .. .The RM are Mountain Warfare specialists so erm, best off and read up before you blunder in chap

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Flatus

You question the wisdom of sending combat forces there without any Close Air Support assets of our own.

But hey, this is the same government that thinks it is a good idea to participate in operation right next to an enemy coastline without organic air defence. See SHAR thread.....

The US Marines are operating their Harriers in Afgahnistan from forward bases, so why can't we do the same?

Good luck to the personnel that are going.

[A Civilian]

I know they have some training in MW but how many weeks a year do they practice? there's no were in the UK that they can reasonably go so there will be a hell of a lot of difference between a UK mountain unit & say a Norway unit.. .. .Any reasonably fit person is going to be encountering problems in Afghanstan its around 4500 feet at its lowest point rising to 12000 ft, thats going to tire any englishman.. . . . <small>[ 21 March 2002, 01:33: Message edited by: A Civilian ]</small>

[WE Branch Fanatic]

45 Cdo are from Abroath in Scotland. Best not call a Scot an Englishman....

[cobaltfrog]

Oh Civvy! Oh dear oh dear. .Not doing too well are you!. .Well lets start at the beginning!. .RM = Royal Marines. .45 = pronounced four five not forty five (a la Hoon!). .over 70% of 45 are English!. .RM = Part of Navy not ARMY. .. .Hope this has helped!! (tongue in cheek!!)

[barry007]

Civvy, Just for your information the Royal Marines go to Norway. .for three months every year on exercise and are some of the best. .trained mountain and artic soldiers in the world. If they get the. .proper support and the equipment to do the job thn i am confident. .they will do a good job out there and do Britian proud.. .(when we're not moaning about money)

[Man-on-the-fence]

Cobaltfrog . . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">THE ROYAL MARINES ARE NOT BRITISH ARMY!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">You are quite correct they're not Army. They're SAILORS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .Still it would be nice if our esteemend Defence Secretary would give them their proper title. .. .They are not Fortyfive Commando they are Four Five Commando. Blithering idiot is prepared to put men into harms way but not preparred to call them by their proper name.. .. .Good Luck and God Speed chaps, we know you wont let us down, unlike our politicians <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />

[A Civilian]

I stand corrected rotary.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Bootnecks aren't sailors.

They're seperate from the Navy proper.

[Junglie]

Dear All. .. .I think we seem to be missing the point here.. .The bootnecks are the best in the world at mountain and arctic warfare, as already said people should engage brain or gain some knowledge before opening their mouth civilian!. .. .As ever they are off to work in an operational environment without the best kit or support as (bless 'em) the mighty King ain't that mighty in Afghanistan and this could leave them high and dry.. .. .Good luck and stay safe to all in 45 and all those working in support, putting themselves in harm's way on our behalf.

[cobaltfrog]

HERE BLOODY HERE! WELL SAID JUNGLIE!!

[Self Loading Freight]

The rumour hereabouts -- and I don't think it's anything more than people thinking out loud -- is that the deployment is there by way of a deal to let Tone keep out of the forthcoming Baghdad Bonanza without undue embarrasment.. .. .(as a side effect, I find that just murmuring "The Redcoats are coming" to gung-ho colonials is wonderfully relaxing.). .. .R

[exrotarybooty]

Thanks to all you guys who have put the record straight about the Royal Marines Commandos being part of the Navy and not the Army, the fact that it's Four Five Commando and not any other combination, and the fact that they are based and train in Scotland, Norway, Oman .....etc. The were in the Suez landings in November 1956, served in Aden from 1961 until the withdrawal, they Yomped to Stanley in the Falklands War, and are now our Mountain and Arctic Warfare specialist unit. I served 3 tours in Four Five and I watch this latest deployment with a lump in my throat as 'here we go again'. Let's hope it is only the Taliban they have to worry about and not 'Blue on Blue'. Thanks again guys.

[jockspice]

JHC. .A most sensible and blimmin' true post! We need to get it sorted PDQ. Disappointed with the lack of crab bashing though........... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[cobaltfrog]

Jockspice you are well I trust in the ivory towers!. .Agree with Junglie and JHC, but a decision that is common sense....Ummm.........How long will that last I wonder!

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Common Sense, nah we'll never get that.

After all, how many defence related decisions taken recently make common sense?

[A Civilian]

There's a very interesting article in the sunday times today written by John Barry who was the commanding officer of the Mountain & Artic Warfare unit of 3 commando.. .. .Its called 'Britians elite commandos lack the right altitude to take on Al-Qaeda'. .. .Unfortunatly I cannot find a link to post it here but in it he talks about how only 50 out of 1700 troops have ever been up to 10,000 ft befor. How the unit has not been in combat since the falklands, the lack of equipment that would be needed & most importantly how only a very tiny percentage of them have ever been to the alps for MW training.. .. .I must admit when I saw a prior post saying they spend 3 months every year in Norweign its sounded like so much s$%t but I kept quite as i didnt have any other information, but I mean do their wives and girlfriends get locked up in a nunnery whilist their away <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .They may be described as the best in the world in the press but its obvious to most people that we simply cannot do the job that the've been asigned todo.

[ORAC]

Allow me:. .<a href="http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/article/0,,178-245747,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/article/0,,178-245747,00.html</a>. .. .Sunday Times:. .March 24, 2002. .. . Britain’s elite commandos lack the right altitude to take on Al-Qaeda . .. . Billed as crack mountain troops, the marines lack the training for the task ahead, writes their former instructing officer John Barry .. . . .Some time soon, but not too soon we hope, those members of the Taliban or Al-Qaeda who have stayed for the fight will be squinting through their sights at a new enemy: 3 Commando Brigade and the boys of 45 Commando Royal Marines. . .As they wait and watch and shoot, they may have time to ponder why this new force has replaced the last one they encountered — the US army in differing forms, from mountain troops to various incarnations of special forces, with their assembled ranks of multinational allies. . .. .If they had seen last week’s newspapers or heard any gossip from local informers, they would be falling off their sandals in whatever passes for mirth among that bleak band at the West’s received wisdom. Wednesday March 20: “The Ministry of Defence said that the Americans had specifically asked for the Royal Marines because of their mountain warfare capabilities. American troops have had problems fighting at high altitude.” If this is indeed what the Ministry of Defence and the Americans said or thought, then it is folly of the highest order. . .. .Apply a little rigour; try scepticism —- or even some common sense: are Americans, in some way, physiologically different from Britons? Are our mountains bigger than theirs? Is there any rational reason to suppose that our boys will be fleeter at 12,000ft than theirs? The answers are no, no and no. Only one thing can equip men to live and fight at altitude and that’s altitude — at least a month of it. . .. .The Afghans have it in spades, with mountains up to 24,557ft; the Americans have it at home in plenty, if they want it (up to 20,320ft) and we have it not at all (4,406ft at home or 15,808ft for the tiny percentage of 3 Commando Brigade who have trained in the Alps). . .. .So which fool is it who says our boys will skirmish and dash and dot it, rock to rock, with any greater alacrity than the Americans? Who is it that serves this drivel to us and on whose authority? I help to pay the bill. I’d like to know. . .. .I’ll accept that 45 Commando, to a man, can hop the heather at sea level with the grace of 1,000 startled stags; but unleash them at Bagram airfield (at roughly 7,000ft), give them a 30- second run and ask how they feel and they will answer, if they can answer, a breathless “knackered”. . .. .Ask how many of the new deployment have ever been above 10,000ft, let alone trained and spent time there. I will bet my credibility and my military pension on no more than 50 out of 1,700. . .. .Then ask Lennox Lewis whether the altitude matters. He turned up to fight in Johannesburg (at about 5,000ft) a mere two days before the bout and was knocked witless by a journeyman slugger who had done some homework and got there a month earlier. A punch knocked Lewis out, but it was altitude and ignorance that undid him. . .. .So will somebody assure us that our ability to fight at altitude was not the reason for our invitation? We’re not up to the job — not yet awhile, not for a month or more. The enemy can fight and is already somewhere near the top of the hill. We start near the bottom. . .. .There’s yet more unreason. We are told that 45 Commando are the world’s best, the toughest of the tough. How do we know? They haven’t fought anyone for 20 years (the enemy then were conscripts, dragged from sunny Argentina and dumped in the sub-arctic Falklands; deserted by their officers, their morale in their boots). Such a claim is arrant twaddle. My heart says they’re the best. My head can only hope they are. We simply don’t know. . .. .Of more certain standing are the arms they will be carrying. I read this week that we have “formidable weapons”. Well, our rifles are M16s, which are good, and SA80s which, now that many millions have been spent by Heckler & Koch in rejigging them, are serviceable — we hope. They have yet to be tested in that peculiar snow/dust environment. . .. .The other side have AK- 47s, which are better. Others have singled out our 105mm howitzers for loyal praise. These are helicopter-portable weapons and can get places, one marine explained this week. What he would have liked to have said, had he not been constrained by considerations of morale and politics, is that the 105mm, for all its accuracy, is a pea-shooter that delivers a twopenny-banger-sized plop. . .. .What he really wants is the American 155mm howitzer with a bang three times as big. But the trouble is that our helicopters can’t lift them. Instead, we will have to rely on the Americans to back us up from the air. Even then, evidence from Operation Anaconda suggests that it takes more than big bangs to discomfort or dislodge the heavily entrenched Taliban and Al-Qaeda fighters from their stone camps and caves. . .. .It is what we are not being told that I want to know. Why, really, are we being called in? What is it that we think we can do that the Americans cannot? How long are we going for? The answers are far from certain, but idle boasts about our force’s capability serve no favours in the long run, even if they ease the political mood back home. . .. .I’m sure 45 Commando are, by any standards, good. Maybe they are the best. They will shoot straight, they will be well trained and well led. They will fight. In any even half-conventional battle at normal altitudes I would back them — heart and head — against anyone. But what they need now is time: time for the boys to breathe thin air; time for their red blood corpuscles to multiply as their bodies acclimatise, a bit of time before they start up that hill. . .. .Looking at this week’s photographs of fresh-faced lads, their green berets folded with cock-skewed elan across the forehead, evoked a full heart’s flush of fond memories: how I wish I could be with them. But I also wish someone would tell it straight. . .. .I want nothing more than for my concerns to be proved wrong, as old farts often are; wrong like Tony Benn on the Falklands; wrong like Denis Healey on the Gulf war. Plain wrong. . .. .John Barry is a former commanding officer of the Mountain and Arctic Warfare Cadre, responsible for training 3 Commando.

[jockspice]

cobaltfrog. .there's bug-ger all ivory about these towers! Cheap 1970 imitation plastic <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> all we can afford

[cobaltfrog]

He He He! Serves you right for being a war mungering HWI! could always go and work in the newly refurbished MOD!!....OR B!

[jockspice]

or maybe I could do what you are doing........... .what are you doing? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> . .What DO you do?!!!?. .Only in jest, mate - drop in for a cuppa next time you are around and we could talk the dreams of having good equipment.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[jungly]

sounds like its all fun and games in blighty.... junglie, m'ol namesake.... hows life in the valley?. .. .i have met john barry.... he really knows his business and has more time in the himilayas, alps and bardufoss than the rest of us put together.. .. .arctic ops are one thing (and it would be hard to find better training) but doing it at 10000AMSL is a new ball game.. .. .good luck 45CDO.. .. .see the rest of you at the jctp.