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View Full Version : G-regging an N-reg in the US?


AdamFrisch
7th Nov 2009, 04:18
Hi.

I'm a bit unsure about how this works.

Let's say I buy a N-reg Cessna that I intend to keep in the US. Can I put it on the G register without it ever having been in the UK? How would one go about doing that?

Also, how would maintenance, C of A and stuff like that work for an aircraft that lives abroad?

I've also heard some rumor that there's a time limit to how long a foreign registered aircraft can operate in the US - is this true?

englishal
7th Nov 2009, 06:04
You would be mad to buy an N reg plane, re-register it on the G reg and then leave it in the USA......absolutely barking mad......Why would you want to do this? If it is for licencing issues, it is a piece of cake to convert to the FAA.....or do you want to do something a bit more sinister, like JAA Flight Training?

Doubtful you would find any EASA approved maintenance organisations in the USA (other than BA perhaps)

jxk
7th Nov 2009, 06:35
I know of an aircraft operated as you question. Like the previous post, it would be nice to know what your requirements are.

IO540
7th Nov 2009, 06:46
It would be bonkers to keep a G-reg in the USA. Getting it signed off at the Annual would be fun.

There is no long term parking limit for foreign reg planes in the USA (I know someone who used to do this) but I vaguely recall there are some TSA issues (flight notification or something like that).

AdamFrisch
7th Nov 2009, 07:18
I'm only asking because I spend a lot of time in the US (am going to be there most of this winter) and might want to buy a cheap entry level aircraft.

As it is today with my license, I've heard it takes 90 days to get the piggyback FAA from my CAA. Add to that my conversion from my Swedish JAA to the British one and we're talking even more. On top of that I need a comm level 6 endorsement and I only think I have 5 at the moment to get the piggyback. That's 90+ days I can't fly when I'm there (I've already done more than 5hrs instruction in California and I'm itching to fly on my own and explore California).

There is also ownership issues to contend with with N-reg aircraft. In order to own an N-reg you need to either be a US Citizen, have a green card or have a US corporation. I only have a visa. I might start a corporation, but am still undecided.

englishal
7th Nov 2009, 08:07
As above....

Depending on your reason for being in the USA (Working on a work visa?) then I'd do a stand alone FAA PPL which should be no worries for someone who already has a licence elsewhere. Any ICAO PPL can be converted to FAA.

Or take a chance and apply for a piggyback one now (which may be quicker than 90 days) and then do the CPL at a later stage. Can't you convert the Swedish one to a piggyback FAA one?

I'd buy and then consider lease back the aeroplane to a flight school so when you are not flying, you can perhaps cover some of the costs. Doing it this way you could end up with free parking and maintenance plus a few $ for your troubles.

I saw a 150 Aerobat for sale for $12000 once, and thought about doing exactly this. However to convert to G reg would likely cost another $10-20,000 (rough guess).....

AdamFrisch
7th Nov 2009, 08:18
Looks like the standalone FAA PPL is the way to go. Sigh. Really look forward to all the TSA clearance paperwork and wait and ground exams and orals and...

But just as an aside. I've read a bit about the nutjob Maurice Kirk and his mad exploits flying around the world. Now, as I understand it, not only did he crash his G-reg Cub in the US, he bought a new one there, put it on the G-reg and flew on (the one he landed at Bush's ranch)! So it must be possible to get G-reg aircraft registered, signed off and maintained whilst abroad.

IO540
7th Nov 2009, 08:50
Anything is possible if cost is not an issue. Plenty of G-reg planes fly to the USA commercially so CAA licensed engineers must be out there.

Did Kirk buy an old N-reg and rapidly transferred it to G, while actually out there?

All ICAO flight training is allowable towards an FAA license, so all your Swedish PPL training is allowable. You will need to do a few hours extra in the USA (in particular some night time perhaps), do the FAA medical, written exam, and then the oral and checkride.

The resulting standalone FAA PPL will be yours for ever. To keep it current, you just need an FAA Class 3 medical and a BFR every 2 years.

BackPacker
7th Nov 2009, 09:14
get the piggyback FAA from my CAA. Add to that my conversion from my Swedish JAA to the British one and we're talking even more.

No need for a UK CAA-issued PPL as an intermediate step. The FAA accepts any ICAO PPL for the issue of an FAA "piggyback" PPL. It's just that the UK CAA and the Australian CAA have strict rules on privacy, so if the FAA calls them to verify the authenticity of your license, they refuse to give the FAA the relevant info. So in both the UK and the Australian situation you've got to contact the CAA beforehand, asking/authorizing them to release your information. But apparently this is not the case for other CAAs (at least not mentioned on the FAA website) so for those CAAs the process is much less painful, and thus possibly much quicker as well.

On top of that I need a comm level 6 endorsement and I only think I have 5 at the moment to get the piggyback.
What I understand is that the US is really practical about ICAO LPE requirements. The FAA has a long-standing requirement that anyone who wants to hold an FAA PPL (or higher) has to speak English to a certain degree, and the FAA has deemed this requirement to be more strict than LPE level 4. So every time you go for a BFR (which happens every two years, and is a requirement to activate your piggyback FAA PPL in any case) the instructor will implicitly "test" your English skills, and won't sign you off if your skills are below par. And if you're up to par, you automatically get ICAO LPE 4, which is valid for the next three years. And of course, your next BFR is earlier than that. Simple.

In order to own an N-reg you need to either be a US Citizen, have a green card or have a US corporation.

A US trust is your answer, and Delaware seems to have the best terms for this kind of thing, as others have said. If you did not get a PM from IO540 already, ask him. He's got a reference to a good website explaining all of this.

Really look forward to all the TSA clearance paperwork and wait and ground exams and orals and...

If you're not getting any significant training, but you're just going to do some brush-up and then a flight exam, you might be exempted from TSA clearance. I seem to recall that things like proficiency checks etc. are specifically exempted in the regulations, but brush-up training would probably be one of those gray areas. Might be worth checking that out, or actually writing the TSA about it. After all, the TSA requirements were put in place for those types of training that significantly enhance your ability to fly an airliner into a building (almost literal wording of the TSA act). So they identified a few training areas for which TSA clearance is required: initial training (PPL), multi-engine (ME), instrument flight (IR) and certain type ratings. All the rest is implicitly exempted from TSA clearance requirements, and so are things like BFRs. Check out their web page for details.

In any case, getting the TSA clearance, once you look at what's really involved, isn't all that hard. It will take about an hour to get through the initial submission of your details through their website, and once you arrive in the US the total fingerprinting thing may take about two hours, including the drive to the police station and back. And you can begin training for the PPL as soon as the TSA acknowledges receipt of your fingerprints. Which, with electronic fingerprinting equipment, is probably a few hours, maybe a day at most.

Also, as far as I know, in the US "ground exams" and "oral exams" should not be a plural. It's one exam covering everything.

The resulting standalone FAA PPL will be yours for ever. To keep it current, you just need an FAA Class 3 medical and a BFR every 2 years.

...and you need to keep Oklahoma (FAA HQ) informed about a change of address.:ok:

flyingfemme
7th Nov 2009, 09:43
You don't want a G reg aircraft in the US for any longer than necessary. Each, and every, flight must be notified to the TSA in advance......date, route, people on board, security measures in force.........ten days in advance. They then issue a waiver form for those flights.
As for maintenance......I don't know of any maintenance organisation over there that can look after you and it wouldn't be worth their while getting authorised just for you.
Take the advice; buy an N reg, get a trust and do a standalone PPL/CPL.

englishal
7th Nov 2009, 10:15
If you're not getting any significant training, but you're just going to do some brush-up and then a flight exam, you might be exempted from TSA clearance
I think you'd find that you would require TSA clearance as there would be the PPL flight test with examiner.

The easiest route would be piggyback PPL. Once you have this, and before you leave the USA do the CPL flight test/oral/exam (as Backpacker mentions no TSA required), that is what I'd do anyway. When I went through the verification of authenticity process some years ago, it only took about 2 weeks, though this was a while ago I admit. When you pick up your licence at the FSDO they will "test" your engish - I think the guy said to me "you can speak english right?". IF you do the CPL flight test then by virtue of passing the check ride and oral with the examiner, they have examined your english speaking abilities.

Whichever way you go it would certainly be easier and cheaper than trying to keep a G reg flying in the USA.

AdamFrisch
7th Nov 2009, 17:43
Flyingfemme - can this be correct that you need TSA approval 10 days in advance to fly within the US? I can understand it for an initial entry into the country. It seems rather excessive.

Has anyone got any links or info regarding this subject?

Just as an observation: I just came back from LA where I did some flying. We flew straight over LAX international on the so called LA Special Flights Rules Route which allows GA aviation to cross LAX midfield in a corridor at 3500ft going south, and 4500ft going north. No ATC with LAX needed, just air to air RT and own separation. I could literally have spat on the Lufthansa B747 that landed right below me.

On the way back we dropped down to 2500ft and did the crossover in what's called the Mini Route. This needs ATC clearance from LAX, but was promptly given. Now, imagine if I'd had sinister motives. I'm amazed it's allowed, actually. So considering this, and if the TSA in fact does need a prior approval for foreign aircraft, my god, have they got their priorities wrong.

AdamFrisch
8th Nov 2009, 01:52
I've edited slightly, but not needed in what way? Please explain.

englishal
8th Nov 2009, 06:49
Because it creates unjustified Media Hype. This in turn leads to governments "having to do something" even if it is a non issue.

In your case at 2500 over LAX it is doubtful you could create any problem in your Cessna...a 747 has a take off speed probably higher than your Vne, you are on Radar whether in the mini-route, special flight rules area (squawk 1201 and Socal do watch/monitor the AA Coms), or the shoreline/hollywood park routes. Worst you could do is make a smudge on the runway causing it to be closed for 30 minutes.

I can fly o/h Gatwick in the UK if I want, not to mention most of the big UK airports other than LHR.

BackPacker
8th Nov 2009, 13:36
I can fly o/h Gatwick in the UK if I want, not to mention most of the big UK airports other than LHR.

Overhead Schiphol (EHAM) the normal clearance is "not above 1000 feet". And if you want to orbit the tower, that's usually not a problem either.

I once was vectored via "overhead the numbers 18L" at the exact moment a 747 was taking off 18L. 1000 feet vertical separation. No problem. But my passenger could not believe what was happening.