New UK Flight Operations Officer / Flight Dispatcher Training Course

[no sig]

I inadvertantly omitted the title 'Flight Dispatcher' in my previous post- should read:

SITA and Bristol Ground School to Offer New Flight Operations Officer/Flight Dispatcher Training Course

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I have it on good authority that SITA, in conjunction with Bristol Ground School, will be offering a new flight operations officer/flight dispatcher training course in the new year. I understand this course will be to the ICAO 7192 D3 syllabus.

I have no futher details than the above, but the Bristol GS website gives some indication of the high standards they offer as a JAA ATPL training organisation.

[Airlift21]

I'll be giving both SITA and Bristol Ground School a buzz on Monday to see if I can get any info from them about this course. I've been looking through their websites and I'm pretty impressed, so if this course DOES materialize, then it can only be a good thing for the industry.......and me too! Fingers crossed !!

[no sig]

Airlift21

My sentiments exactly! I have a bit of inside knowledge about the course through a knowlegable and very expereinced ops/flight dispatch manager who has had an overview of the course materials, he was very impressed. I too have had sight of the draft computer based studies and I think it will be impressive and user friendly. Bristol GS, an ATPL ground school, is preparing the study materials using their aircrew training knowldege and I have no doubt that will be a great advantage.

Further, with SITA's flight operations service department involved, I think we have the making of a course which could become the UK main training provider. A long felt want I have to add.

Keep us posted on what you find out.

[plans123]

I too would be VERY interested in this course. Post the details when you get them :ok:

[Ten West]

Me too! Any word yet?

[Grasscarp]

The situation is that the course is planned and is being worked on. As soon as it is ready to be launched it will be publicised. This is aimed at being in 2010, but no date yet.

[Slow Progress]

Great news. About time something like this came along!!!

[plans123]

Good stuff and the right time frame for me as well. :ok:

[plans123]

A bit of a bump.

Anyone heard anything else about this or has it all fallen through?

[Grasscarp]

Plans123, I wrote on this thread that this was planned for launch in 2010. As I am involved in the planning I can assure you that this is still the intention. As soon as there is a firm date it will be well publicised and I will also post news here.

[plans123]

Thanks for the update mate.... :ok:

[nick 86]

At the moment i am currently in construction but slowly beginning to become tired of this career. I have always loved the idea of being an airline dispatcher and im now ready to take steps towards this career choice. I have done some research into the licence that is needed but cannot seem to get a clear answer!
If i was willing to pay for the course/licence can you do this in the UK and if i did this in the uk would it cover me to do the role of a dispatcher in airports around the world.
I have basic school education i.e primary and secondary and various NVQs in construction would i qualify to take the course
Thanks for your help!!!

[Grasscarp]

Nick, in answer to your question. There is nothing to stop anyone who wants to doing any dispatcher course. There is also no guarantee of a job once you have taken a course. In American there is a FAA dispatcher licence but for most of the rest of the world there is no licence, and the course referred to in this thread will not issue a licence because there is none. People can work in airline operations without any formal training or qualification. However if you do not have any background knowledge then a course would be a good way of learning what you need to know.

[nick 86]

Thank you for the help Grasscarp!

[Epsilon minus]

Nosig
Well done this sounds like a fantastic course that will be of great benefit to both employers and employees.
Have a look at EU Reg 216/2008 annex iv which became effective 14DEC2009. I look forward to employing the first that qualify at rates commensurate with their professional status.
EASA Regulations structure (http://www.easa.europa.eu/ws_prod/g/rg_regulations.php)

[GLGNDB]

I was recently made redundant from GSM. A course like this, if the certificate at the end becomes industry / regulator recognised, then I would welcome that, as currently apart from my CV detailing my experience I have no other means of showing a potential employer that I am suitabally quailified for the position.
Hopefully like the rest of the Bristol GS courses, there will be a distance learning option.

[Grasscarp]

GLGNDB, the course is planned as home study for the theory. Once that is successfully completed it will be followed up with a classroom course for the practical side.

[no sig]

Grasscarp, you'll find that many ICAO based countires do indeed require a FOO/Dispatchers license or accreditdation of some sort- although it is also true many do not. However, training to this 7192 standard is required within Europe and has been for some time, just it is paid lip service to by many airlines and the UK CAA.

It is an ICAO Recommendation that member states do issue a license, but it is not a standard- therefore not mandatory. This course is, as I understand it, to ICAO Doc 7192 D3 and may well prove acceptable to other countries as the basis for the issue of a FOO/Dispacthers license. We'll see once it is up and running and what approvals it can gain.

[Epsilon minus]

Have a look at annex 4 1a
EU REG 216/2008 as amended DEC2009 (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2008:079:0001:0049:EN:PDF)
Whilst it is not a law that applies to the UK it will be interesting to see what comes out in the Implementation Rule - When they can get their act together!

[plans123]

Sorry for the necroposting, but did anything actually come of this course or did it quietly die and fade away?

[Alex Whittingham]

Hi,

The course is still under development, the more pressing requirement of updating the ATPL material to match EASA's requirements got in the way. It is going to be a distance learning course to cover the theory requirements of the syllabus (met theory, Air law etc.) followed by a one or two week course at SITA to cover the more practical application of the theory. I would estimate it will be ready for launch in about 9 months.

[merlinxx]

Is that what SITA translates to Sometimes It Takes Ages:ok:

[Alex Whittingham]

Not this time - mea culpa, SITA keep pushing me! I am on the case, there's definitely a market for a JAR-OPS/EU-OPS orientated course that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. I was told that, at one stage, EasyJet were sending their Operations staff to the US to complete an FAA flight dispatchers ticket. I don't know if they still are, but that doesn't make sense for an EU operator. The rules are different and the operating philosophy is different.

[no sig]

That's exactly the point Alex, keep at it- a course to meet ICAO/European requirements is a long felt want.

[Ballymoss]

a long felt want

Nicely put Bob, I'll have a couple but, what exactly are they?

Rgds
The Moss:ok:

[no sig]

Moss, much the same as a 'long stick with a wait on the end of it'... keep your felts never know when you might need one...

[5552N0426W]

Hi nosig,

All this goes back into last century when we all thought that it would come to fruition sometime.

I suppose the slow turning of the wheels eventually gets there. It's long overdue but for some of us it's maybe too late.

I see your spelling hasn't improved over the years.

You back in UK now?

Give me a bell sometime.

DL

[merlinxx]

Does this make me think of our BGFOO asperations back in the early 70s:confused:

[Epsilon minus]

Alex,
Its been sometime since we last met in Bedfordshire and I am extremely pleased to hear that the 7192 D3 course is still alive.
I have been banging on about the need to get a formal European certificate or even license for Ground Ops people for as long as I can remember. I hold a current FAA (Part 65) Dispatcher license which is a good thing to have but has no relevance to EU-OPS 1. The ICAO syllabus doc 7192 D3 , which is basically the ATPL course is very relevant and all European G-Ops people should undertake this course before they are allowed to act in any supervisory capacity in a flight/network control or flight dispatch office of any UK airline holding an AOC.
The problem with this is the CAA and all the super prima donnas of the SRG who have absolutely no understanding of the contribution to air safety and operational control and supervision that should be provided by ground operations personnel that hold formal recognised qualifications that should be compliant with EU legislation and administered by the authority. It would appear that the myopic doyens of the SRG think that a ground ops department is there to order a taxi or book a room in a hotel for a pilot. The technical stuff is for the drivers only? How unrealistic is this and is a perfect illustration of the puffed up pilot in the role of regulation.
The FAA could teach them a lesson on how it should be done and they would be well advised to re think the role of ground operations in AOC operations perhaps this incident would sharpen their resolve Air Accidents Investigation: Airbus A330-243, G-OJMC (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/sites/aaib/publications/bulletins/november_2009/airbus_a330_243__g_ojmc.cfm) in which ground operations personnel were directly involved.
Many airlines in the UK and Europe recognise that adequately trained and technically competent staff working in ground operations are a vital ingredient to air safety and are the orchestrator's of business continuity. The CAA needs to get a grip and recognise this too.
Alex can you arrange for an alternative to SITA? SITA always charge too much and usually cock things up as well. I do not believe that allowing them to have a monopoly would serve your interests or the interests of the industry well.
Debate:
Ground Operations - what's all that about and what does it mean? There's no definition in EU-OPS, perhaps we should get it banned?

[Grasscarp]

Epsilon minus,
Since SITA initiated this joint venture with Bristol Ground School your comments are ill-informed and inappropriate. Also as no charges have yet been published you are not in a position to make any comment on them. SITA has been asked for a long time by many of its customer airlines as well as individuals to host a dispatcher training course. It is not looking for or claiming a monopoly in this field.

[Epsilon minus]

Right - couple of points here.
Sorry that you are so easily bruised but SITA have a long history of being very expensive. As for being ill informed I think this comment inappropriate.
My experience of business relationships with SITA has not been one that would incline me towards future business dealings, your comments have served to reinforce my belief. This does not imply that SITA customer support has been poor, on the contrary.
Apart from Bristol GS (and they are no longer providers) I know of no other training organisation offering a distance learning course for the ICAO 7192 D3 syllabus, therefore if SITA goes ahead you will enjoy a monopoly. I believe this to be unhealthy and as a potential customer I would prefer that there be a competitor or competitors to SITA.
This is not intended to cause you any offence but is merely an observation of my past experiences. I hope that, in the future, you can allay my reticence and I wish you all well.
Regards.
EM

[Alex Whittingham]

Grief chaps! A bit of history here... we did try to set up an FD course with Silverjet. As we looked at how we could do it I became aware that, although we could provide the background theory, we at BGS have no direct experience of the Operations Officer's job. The solution with Silverjet was for them to provide on the job training and to help us develop -or more likely cut down - the basic ATPL course, which exceeds the Doc 7192 requirements, to match their Operations department's needs.

The course we produced could not be 'approved' because there is no requirement to do so in JAR OPS or EU OPS. I tried to get the course 'recognised' instead as being compliant with Doc 7192. The CAA were no help, Flight Crew Licensing refused because FDs aren't flight crew (like to help you old chap but not our bailiwick, try Flight Ops) and, when I asked the Flight Ops department to recognise the course, their refusal was blunt to the point of rudeness, in fact it was rude.

Unfortunately this first version of the course didn't really get started before Silverjet's unfortunate demise but they do deserve credit for trying to set up a decent system.

I had quite a bit of e-mail encouragement at this time from some senior and experienced Flight Ops staff who thought the idea should be kept alive. I'd like to thank them for that. A year or so later SITA approached me with a similar idea, but to produce a generic course this time, not company specific. In this iteration the ATPL course is cut down from the start and modified to match the Doc 7192 requirements. SITA convinced me that they could run the classroom phase quite successfully - this depends more on the competence and drive of the instructors than anything else - and we have talked about a pricing structure which doesn't see unreasonable to me.

I'm sure that SITA will monitor what we deliver as we will watch what they do because its in both our best interests to deliver a good course.

Why don't you give us a chance to do it right? If we mess up, then attack us.

Edited to add: I haven't spoken to SITA about this but I don't think there is any monopoly in our agreement. If an airline, for instance, wanted to run their own version of the course I can't see any reason why we shouldn't provide the Doc 7192 theory course and they provide the on-the-job training to their own company specific procedures, or maybe SITA could run a cut down version of their classroom phase with the airline bolting company specific procedures on the end?